They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
That is exactly it and also the cause of my greatest sense of confusion with regards to these forums why is there a call back to the tedious mechanics of old. Why is there not a call for new ideas and new mechanics that can encourage grouping and make the game fun but still accessible.
I truly wish this forum was a place where ideas could be generated for great new mechanics and discuss ways to create a new generation of MMORPGs instead a lot of the forum users here want to drag us back instead of push us forward to something that is better then the old games and also eclipses the new.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
That is exactly it and also the cause of my greatest sense of confusion with regards to these forums why is there a call back to the tedious mechanics of old. Why is there not a call for new ideas and new mechanics that can encourage grouping and make the game fun but still accessible.
I truly wish this forum was a place where ideas could be generated for great new mechanics and discuss ways to create a new generation of MMORPGs instead a lot of the forum users here want to drag us back instead of push us forward to something that is better then the old games and also eclipses the new.
Henry Ford said it best.
"If I'd asked people want they wanted, they would have said give us faster horses "
Few people ever look forward to find innovation. It's probably why only a very few ever find it.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
That is exactly it and also the cause of my greatest sense of confusion with regards to these forums why is there a call back to the tedious mechanics of old. Why is there not a call for new ideas and new mechanics that can encourage grouping and make the game fun but still accessible.
I truly wish this forum was a place where ideas could be generated for great new mechanics and discuss ways to create a new generation of MMORPGs instead a lot of the forum users here want to drag us back instead of push us forward to something that is better then the old games and also eclipses the new.
Most people here who talk about the social aspects in MMOs disappearing aren't asking for the specific mechanics from old games, but just talking about how the new mechanics in MMOs have largely done away with the social aspect. Many of the people who complain about these things (myself included) would absolutely be happy with some new innovations that bring back that "living world" feeling for MMOs, even if it's not in the form of tedium or outdated mechanics.
But that being said, I would prefer tedium and outdated mechanics to what we have now in most modern MMOs. Namely matchmaking, LFG queues, Auction Houses, etc.
Monopoly, chess, tetris, pong, zork, pacman, thumb wrestling, etc... every "game" out there... says youre WRONG.
You miss the point that accomplishment and winning is FUN.
but grazing cows like you just want to lumber around drooling, flatulent, and consuming grass that doesnt fight back; being fed a slow drip anesthetic easy experience without any resistance.. you call it "fun". players with a pulse call it boring.
btw.. isnt Immodium a diarrhea medicine? ya it is.. makes sense. i understand your post now.
So your telling me you'd do all those things if they were not fun? Every person who looses in those games didn't have fun? Winning is certainly not the be all end all of my gaming experience.
So a small minority of players that choose to play games for competitive reasons over fun. Doesn't change my opinion that games are about fun, not winning.
Most people complaining about challenge in this post mention PvE mechanics. If you want challenge go PvP. You know, actually challenge against something with a brain.
Oh and yes, it is.
Flappy Bird proves you wrong. Small competitive minority my ass. LoL proves you wrong, small competitive minority?
Flappy Bird is not fun, its brutal, it's annoying but it is also addictive and incredible popular because winning (or in this case getting a little further) is what drives people. Accomplishment, nothing else!
PvP is not challenging, it's either horribly unbalanced or again a super easy Zergfest. Worse, open PvP attracts the bottom feeders that like to ruin other peoples fun. PvP belongs in games like Dota 2 or LoL, not as an excuse for difficulty in an MMORPG.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
That is exactly it and also the cause of my greatest sense of confusion with regards to these forums why is there a call back to the tedious mechanics of old. Why is there not a call for new ideas and new mechanics that can encourage grouping and make the game fun but still accessible.
I truly wish this forum was a place where ideas could be generated for great new mechanics and discuss ways to create a new generation of MMORPGs instead a lot of the forum users here want to drag us back instead of push us forward to something that is better then the old games and also eclipses the new.
Most people here who talk about the social aspects in MMOs disappearing aren't asking for the specific mechanics from old games, but just talking about how the new mechanics in MMOs have largely done away with the social aspect. Many of the people who complain about these things (myself included) would absolutely be happy with some new innovations that bring back that "living world" feeling for MMOs, even if it's not in the form of tedium or outdated mechanics.
But that being said, I would prefer tedium and outdated mechanics to what we have now in most modern MMOs. Namely matchmaking, LFG queues, Auction Houses, etc.
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
It depends on what you're saying is difficult. Killing a single mob may not be difficult, but it would be difficult to max out if there are more consequences to dying in these "harder" games.
That really depends on how much you value endurance challenges. Personally I will value an intellectual challenge way higher and consider endurance challenges to be lowest common denominator. IT is the difference between not beating a game because it is hard and not beating a game because it was so boring you fell asleep while playing it.
Well those two things aren't at odds with each other, so there's no point in comparing them. You can have an "endurance challenge" that is also intellectually challenging.
MMORPG endurance challenges involve repeating the same actions over and over again. At a certain point muscle memory takes over and you just turn off your brain. It is the equivalent of mental Tic-Tac-Toe where the intellectual challenge quickly disappears and you go through the same motions without gaining any significant new knowledge.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
That is exactly it and also the cause of my greatest sense of confusion with regards to these forums why is there a call back to the tedious mechanics of old. Why is there not a call for new ideas and new mechanics that can encourage grouping and make the game fun but still accessible.
I truly wish this forum was a place where ideas could be generated for great new mechanics and discuss ways to create a new generation of MMORPGs instead a lot of the forum users here want to drag us back instead of push us forward to something that is better then the old games and also eclipses the new.
Most people here who talk about the social aspects in MMOs disappearing aren't asking for the specific mechanics from old games, but just talking about how the new mechanics in MMOs have largely done away with the social aspect. Many of the people who complain about these things (myself included) would absolutely be happy with some new innovations that bring back that "living world" feeling for MMOs, even if it's not in the form of tedium or outdated mechanics.
But that being said, I would prefer tedium and outdated mechanics to what we have now in most modern MMOs. Namely matchmaking, LFG queues, Auction Houses, etc.
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
Encouraging games to stick to their social roots won't stifle innovation.
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
Encouraging games to stick to their social roots won't stifle innovation.
It does the moment you start listing dos and don'ts. Which people do on these forums. All the time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
Encouraging games to stick to their social roots won't stifle innovation.
It does the moment you start listing dos and don'ts. Which people do on these forums. All the time.
I have to agree with Quirhid, Pantheon brings nothing new to the table you could say that's encouraging games to be stay to their social roots however there is still gated content, designated downtime which to many represents a high barrier to entry especially those that have the Cash to support your vision.
If Pantheon represented a merging of the best of two worlds you can bet there would be investors tossing money at Brad Like it was candy however trying to go some place you have gone before and had to leave (EQ) then failed miserably trying to make a follow up (Vanguard) will not convince investors that the third time is really a charm when your model is old and tired and a large majority of the player base has already rejected it.
Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
Encouraging games to stick to their social roots won't stifle innovation.
It does the moment you start listing dos and don'ts. Which people do on these forums. All the time.
I have to agree with Quirhid, Pantheon brings nothing new to the table you could say that's encouraging games to be stay to their social roots however there is still gated content, designated downtime which to many represents a high barrier to entry especially those that have the Cash to support your vision.
If Pantheon represented a merging of the best of two worlds you can bet there would be investors tossing money at Brad Like it was candy however trying to go some place you have gone before and had to leave (EQ) then failed miserably trying to make a follow up (Vanguard) will not convince investors that the third time is really a charm when your model is old and tired and a large majority of the player base has already rejected it.
I have no idea what Pantheon is doing, why do you continue to talk about it? No matter WHAT that game is/isn't doing, it doesn't refute the idea that encouraging MMO's to stay social wouldn't stifle innovation.
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
Encouraging games to stick to their social roots won't stifle innovation.
It does the moment you start listing dos and don'ts. Which people do on these forums. All the time.
I don't know or care what "people on these forums" do. Encouraging MMO's to continue to be social does not stifle innovation. There is no reason to think that MMO's need to be less social in order to see innovation.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Absolutely.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
From what I've seen, people are equally bad in hardcore games as in the casual friendly ones. They just like to beat their chests more for some reason.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar No not easier. A casual game just allows for shorter sessions. The session itself can still be hard.
That doesn't contradict anything I said. I even said "maybe not by definition..."
Like I said, casual gamers will tend to be less skilled than hardcore gamers, so casual games will tend to be easier than non-casual (or hardcore) games. History bears this out. Hardcore games are often also very difficult.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
From what I've seen, people are equally bad in hardcore games as in the casual friendly ones. They just like to beat their chests more for some reason.
My anecdotal evidence contradicts your anecdotal evidence, and logic supports me. Hardcore gamers play more, they will tend to be better.
Much like spices in making soup, it's easier to add difficulty to an easy game then to remove difficulty from a challenging game.
Moral: If you want the game to be more difficult, don't change it for everyone, just change it for yourself. Go to higher level zones to fight, use less than top of the line gear, don't use your best spells, pick a pet class and then don't use the pet, or when your character dies, delete it. How do you think the hardcore/ironman mode started? By choice.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
From what I've seen, people are equally bad in hardcore games as in the casual friendly ones. They just like to beat their chests more for some reason.
My anecdotal evidence contradicts your anecdotal evidence, and logic supports me. Hardcore gamers play more, they will tend to be better.
Amount of practice is not everything. It is also the quality of practice that counts. For example, you can have 1 hour of challenging gameplay versus 6 hours of doing practically nothing.
Hardcore games tend to waste your time more. Your move.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
From what I've seen, people are equally bad in hardcore games as in the casual friendly ones. They just like to beat their chests more for some reason.
My anecdotal evidence contradicts your anecdotal evidence, and logic supports me. Hardcore gamers play more, they will tend to be better.
Amount of practice is not everything. It is also the quality of practice that counts. For example, you can have 1 hour of challenging gameplay versus 6 hours of doing practically nothing.
Hardcore games tend to waste your time more. Your move.
No, they don't. How do hardcore games waste your time more? And by how much? Do you think it's by so much that it makes up for the fact that casual gamers play games considerably less?
I would say simply because the learning curve I'd typically small. There is no more skill involved in most hard core games than in casual games n. So if there has no more skill involved it isn't challenging my skill any more than the casual game. Therefore increasing that time will not make me a better player.
More time never equals better player. For anything. There must be cognitive components.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Challenge has nothing to do with casual play. Its more that developers numbers make them afraid to rock the boat on challenge. You could have a game that took 5 hours to max level but totally kicked your ass with skill required.
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
From what I've seen, people are equally bad in hardcore games as in the casual friendly ones. They just like to beat their chests more for some reason.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I would say simply because the learning curve I'd typically small. There is no more skill involved in most hard core games than in casual games n. So if there has no more skill involved it isn't challenging my skill any more than the casual game. Therefore increasing that time will not make me a better player.
More time never equals better player. For anything. There must be cognitive components.
I'm not sure what a small skill curve is. Also if I'm not mistaken this premise assumes that hardcore games aren't any more difficult than casual games. Why would you assume that?
Also, you're just wrong even assuming the premise is realistic. Practicing something WILL increase your skill in that thing. If you have two people playing the same exact game, the person who plays more will tend to be better than the person who doesn't.
As for the last statement... I just have no idea how you can think that. There must be some kind of misunderstanding because I can't fathom how that makes sense. More time [played] never equals a better player? Huh? Are you saying practice doesn't matter? Or what?
Comments
That is exactly it and also the cause of my greatest sense of confusion with regards to these forums why is there a call back to the tedious mechanics of old. Why is there not a call for new ideas and new mechanics that can encourage grouping and make the game fun but still accessible.
I truly wish this forum was a place where ideas could be generated for great new mechanics and discuss ways to create a new generation of MMORPGs instead a lot of the forum users here want to drag us back instead of push us forward to something that is better then the old games and also eclipses the new.
Henry Ford said it best.
"If I'd asked people want they wanted, they would have said give us faster horses "
Few people ever look forward to find innovation. It's probably why only a very few ever find it.
Most people here who talk about the social aspects in MMOs disappearing aren't asking for the specific mechanics from old games, but just talking about how the new mechanics in MMOs have largely done away with the social aspect. Many of the people who complain about these things (myself included) would absolutely be happy with some new innovations that bring back that "living world" feeling for MMOs, even if it's not in the form of tedium or outdated mechanics.
But that being said, I would prefer tedium and outdated mechanics to what we have now in most modern MMOs. Namely matchmaking, LFG queues, Auction Houses, etc.
Flappy Bird proves you wrong. Small competitive minority my ass. LoL proves you wrong, small competitive minority?
Flappy Bird is not fun, its brutal, it's annoying but it is also addictive and incredible popular because winning (or in this case getting a little further) is what drives people. Accomplishment, nothing else!
PvP is not challenging, it's either horribly unbalanced or again a super easy Zergfest. Worse, open PvP attracts the bottom feeders that like to ruin other peoples fun. PvP belongs in games like Dota 2 or LoL, not as an excuse for difficulty in an MMORPG.
The problem is the more we talk about the past the less investors and other people want to listen. Look at Pantheon ROTF it has a great old school developer behind it and it has yet to receive funding weather it's on Kickstarter or from investors. To many people no longer believe in the old model unfortunately for those that enjoyed it. It's only going to be by innovating and adapting and updating old ideas will you get a truly great game that can perhaps please both types of players.
MMORPG endurance challenges involve repeating the same actions over and over again. At a certain point muscle memory takes over and you just turn off your brain. It is the equivalent of mental Tic-Tac-Toe where the intellectual challenge quickly disappears and you go through the same motions without gaining any significant new knowledge.
Encouraging games to stick to their social roots won't stifle innovation.
It does the moment you start listing dos and don'ts. Which people do on these forums. All the time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have to agree with Quirhid, Pantheon brings nothing new to the table you could say that's encouraging games to be stay to their social roots however there is still gated content, designated downtime which to many represents a high barrier to entry especially those that have the Cash to support your vision.
If Pantheon represented a merging of the best of two worlds you can bet there would be investors tossing money at Brad Like it was candy however trying to go some place you have gone before and had to leave (EQ) then failed miserably trying to make a follow up (Vanguard) will not convince investors that the third time is really a charm when your model is old and tired and a large majority of the player base has already rejected it.
I have no idea what Pantheon is doing, why do you continue to talk about it? No matter WHAT that game is/isn't doing, it doesn't refute the idea that encouraging MMO's to stay social wouldn't stifle innovation.
I don't know or care what "people on these forums" do. Encouraging MMO's to continue to be social does not stifle innovation. There is no reason to think that MMO's need to be less social in order to see innovation.
Absolutely.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Maybe not by definition, but casual games will tend to be easier because casual players will tend to be less skilled than hardcore players.
From what I've seen, people are equally bad in hardcore games as in the casual friendly ones. They just like to beat their chests more for some reason.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That doesn't contradict anything I said. I even said "maybe not by definition..."
Like I said, casual gamers will tend to be less skilled than hardcore gamers, so casual games will tend to be easier than non-casual (or hardcore) games. History bears this out. Hardcore games are often also very difficult.
My anecdotal evidence contradicts your anecdotal evidence, and logic supports me. Hardcore gamers play more, they will tend to be better.
EDITED so I don't get banned
Much like spices in making soup, it's easier to add difficulty to an easy game then to remove difficulty from a challenging game.
Moral: If you want the game to be more difficult, don't change it for everyone, just change it for yourself. Go to higher level zones to fight, use less than top of the line gear, don't use your best spells, pick a pet class and then don't use the pet, or when your character dies, delete it. How do you think the hardcore/ironman mode started? By choice.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Only because big data, data-mining & machine learning techniques, and marketing science research were not available then.
Using science to figuring out what people want, or better yet .. influence what they want ... is the innovation.
Amount of practice is not everything. It is also the quality of practice that counts. For example, you can have 1 hour of challenging gameplay versus 6 hours of doing practically nothing.
Hardcore games tend to waste your time more. Your move.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No, they don't. How do hardcore games waste your time more? And by how much? Do you think it's by so much that it makes up for the fact that casual gamers play games considerably less?
More time never equals better player. For anything. There must be cognitive components.
lol +1
I'm not sure what a small skill curve is. Also if I'm not mistaken this premise assumes that hardcore games aren't any more difficult than casual games. Why would you assume that?
Also, you're just wrong even assuming the premise is realistic. Practicing something WILL increase your skill in that thing. If you have two people playing the same exact game, the person who plays more will tend to be better than the person who doesn't.
As for the last statement... I just have no idea how you can think that. There must be some kind of misunderstanding because I can't fathom how that makes sense. More time [played] never equals a better player? Huh? Are you saying practice doesn't matter? Or what?