They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an BORING (for me).
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an BORING (for me).
I can't waste time on creativity. I want to be entertained.
... fixed.
The point is not about wasting time .. playing games are wasting time to have fun. The point is that some of the stuff you have listed is BORING (to me, and some others). That is why when i want to waste time, i play games that do not have those kind of BORING stuff.
You think it's boring to do all that stuff, but it's exciting to kill mobs over and over again with nothing else to do? RPGs are only partially about killing mobs. The other part is experiencing a world. To me waiting for nightfall is not boring. It's feeling the night chill against my skin. It's feeling an sense of danger in the bottom of my stomach as the sun starts to go down and darkness falls. It's not knowing what scary creature might be around the corner or who/what I may be meeting in with in the night.
I am glad you enjoy imagining these things but many of us that play games feel differently.
If these are the kinds of experiences you crave have you thought about taking part in any Live Action Role Playing games where people focus on recreating and role playing these experiences.
Not everyone wants to spend all their time at their computer imagining things like that they would much rather enjoy playing a fun engaging game.
If I truly want a terrifying and challenging experience there are also games that simulate that much better than any MMORPG ever has.
I don't really need to simulate it. It's all in my mind for the most part. That's what RPGs area all about more then loot grind or dungeon grind. They are experiencing a place in a fantasy world. You don't really need more then a world to accomplish that. If you are playing a game just to kill and loot with friends then you could play a any number of games out there that are not MMORPGs. I believe a lot of people find things boring because they just have no feeling for what it would be like to experience said thing in person. Obviously it will be boring if you just look at it as having to wait around, but even that could be twisted because you are feeling what said character would be feeling in an RPG if they had to wait around.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
How is my party dying from a lag spike then making us spend some time doing a corpse run and losing exp and then starting over building character dependency and increasing social interaction it's frustrating and annoying and forces me to regain something I have already attained. In your opinion it may add something to the gaming experience but to me it's a reason to go find another game to play.
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an BORING (for me).
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an BORING (for me).
I can't waste time on creativity. I want to be entertained.
... fixed.
The point is not about wasting time .. playing games are wasting time to have fun. The point is that some of the stuff you have listed is BORING (to me, and some others). That is why when i want to waste time, i play games that do not have those kind of BORING stuff.
You think it's boring to do all that stuff, but it's exciting to kill mobs over and over again with nothing else to do? RPGs are only partially about killing mobs. The other part is experiencing a world. To me waiting for nightfall is not boring. It's feeling the night chill against my skin. It's feeling an sense of danger in the bottom of my stomach as the sun starts to go down and darkness falls. It's not knowing what scary creature might be around the corner or who/what I may be meeting in with in the night.
I am glad you enjoy imagining these things but many of us that play games feel differently.
If these are the kinds of experiences you crave have you thought about taking part in any Live Action Role Playing games where people focus on recreating and role playing these experiences.
Not everyone wants to spend all their time at their computer imagining things like that they would much rather enjoy playing a fun engaging game.
If I truly want a terrifying and challenging experience there are also games that simulate that much better than any MMORPG ever has.
I don't really need to simulate it. It's all in my mind for the most part. That's what RPGs area all about more then loot grind or dungeon grind. They are experiencing a place in a fantasy world. You don't really need more then a world to accomplish that. If you are playing a game just to kill and loot with friends then you could play a any number of games out there that are not MMORPGs. I believe a lot of people find things boring because they just have no feeling for what it would be like to experience said thing in person. Obviously it will be boring if you just look at it as having to wait around, but even that could be twisted because you are feeling what said character would be feeling in an RPG if they had to wait around.
If that's the experience that you want then you should be playing on an RP server. Role Playing is about creating a character and playing that character even if they are in direct conflict of how you normally are as a person.
Most MMORPGs have been game where you kill and loot with friends weather it's other players or mobs, that's been a large part of MMOs since their inception.
Many people don't want to spend all of their time in a game submerging who they are as a person and role playing which is why things like story and choices in said story are becoming important to let people role play without having to stay in character while playing the game.
When I truly want to experience role playing I go play Pen and Paper because I will be in a group that will want to role play.
There are very few people that play an MMORPG to have a "pure" role playing experience such as the one you described even on RP servers people slip out of character it's not an easy thing to accomplish. As a developer I am not going to try and cater to the very small crowd that enjoy it I am going to try and appeal to a broader audience.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
Slowing you down from what?
Progressing through the game having to retread over older content due to a server issue or other internet service related glitch.
MMORPGs became easy stuff years ago. Devs (or publishers pushing them, idk) want accessibility. THey want everyone to be able to log in and complete the whole game without help, effectively killing the social aspect of the game, the challenge, and more a lot of people the fun. And guess what, they always forget to scale the difficulty back up based on the amount of people doing the same task. If there is going to be a solo experience in mmo, scale the difficulty up when more people show up or keep the solo out of the mmo.
What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
One of the reasons is that people don't want to be required to play 20+ Hours a week to progress in games. I remember playing SWG and the only way to progress in the game at a certain point was to change my class entirely Grind out Holocrons so I could become a force sensitive and be able to play a Jedi it was a good few hundred hours of work.
People just don't want to do that and even back then most people did not want to do that. Players like myself were the ones that played EQ for a month and then said why do I come home from work sit down at a computer and go back to work......
In some respects gave have become to easy but that being said I would much rather play an easier game and have fun while playing then spend hours working on my character online with a significant portion of that time being spent experiencing frustration and wondering why I pay to have a second job......
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
As if that is a bad thing. I don't see a reason why people shouldn't have entertainment the way they like it. It is not like playing a longer game is a virtual or anything.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Aggressive mob aggro is annoying not hard. There's a difference. That's why its mostly gone.
lol I love it.. Anything that causes you to die in an MMO is annoying. So it was all removed and now you are left with these crap easy games. Raids aren't hard you just get everyone to do the same thing at the right time. If you die it is annoying.
As a Lineage 2 player, that almost never died by a mob, I can wholeheartedly say that it is an annoying mechanic. Same in WoW. The AI in most MMOs is so stiff that it's super easy to avoid dying unless you go greedy, like seriously. What are we discussing in here...
What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
One of the reasons is that people don't want to be required to play 20+ Hours a week to progress in games. I remember playing SWG and the only way to progress in the game at a certain point was to change my class entirely Grind out Holocrons so I could become a force sensitive and be able to play a Jedi it was a good few hundred hours of work.
People just don't want to do that and even back then most people did not want to do that. Players like myself were the ones that played EQ for a month and then said why do I come home from work sit down at a computer and go back to work......
In some respects gave have become to easy but that being said I would much rather play an easier game and have fun while playing then spend hours working on my character online with a significant portion of that time being spent experiencing frustration and wondering why I pay to have a second job......
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
You have no idea how old I am and assume that I am part of a certain generation and you highlight one line in my post completely ignoring the context that it was given in.
I said that given a choice I would pick an easier game instead of a difficult frustrating one that requires 20+ hours a week which in terms of time invested is the equivalent of having a second job just to stay a relevant part of the community!
I grew up playing old school MMORPGs the thing is I always quit them as there were other demands on my time that spending the time in game when I could not be part of the greater community due to an incapability of devoting the hours required in the way required to be part of it and the way I had to devote those hours become unrewarding.
This is the typical response of most people on this forum the ADD Generation, The Casuals, The Entitled ones. You have no idea what your talking about everyone has their own reasons for their own play style current MMOs are a result of what consumers want and a result of all the people that quit those old games because they could not find anything they liked in them to keep them playing.
You can keep raging against a different perspective or you can accept that their are different play styles out there and MMORPGs can cater to different crowds.
What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
One of the reasons is that people don't want to be required to play 20+ Hours a week to progress in games. I remember playing SWG and the only way to progress in the game at a certain point was to change my class entirely Grind out Holocrons so I could become a force sensitive and be able to play a Jedi it was a good few hundred hours of work.
People just don't want to do that and even back then most people did not want to do that. Players like myself were the ones that played EQ for a month and then said why do I come home from work sit down at a computer and go back to work......
In some respects gave have become to easy but that being said I would much rather play an easier game and have fun while playing then spend hours working on my character online with a significant portion of that time being spent experiencing frustration and wondering why I pay to have a second job......
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
You have no idea how old I am and assume that I am part of a certain generation and you highlight one line in my post completely ignoring the context that it was given in.
I said that given a choice I would pick an easier game instead of a difficult frustrating one that requires 20+ hours a week which in terms of time invested is the equivalent of having a second job just to stay a relevant part of the community!
I grew up playing old school MMORPGs the thing is I always quit them as there were other demands on my time that spending the time in game when I could not be part of the greater community due to an incapability of devoting the hours required in the way required to be part of it and the way I had to devote those hours become unrewarding.
This is the typical response of most people on this forum the ADD Generation, The Casuals, The Entitled ones. You have no idea what your talking about everyone has their own reasons for their own play style current MMOs are a result of what consumers want and a result of all the people that quit those old games because they could not find anything they liked in them to keep them playing.
You can keep raging against a different perspective or you can accept that their are different play styles out there and MMORPGs can cater to different crowds.
Clearly MMOs cannot cater to different crowds or you would not have a ton of mmo people running around pissed that mmos have been destroyed by casuals. If hardcore mmo players had a place to go that had a blizzard like budget they would go there and not be on this forum.
Originally posted by rojo6934 MMORPGs became easy stuff years ago. Devs (or publishers pushing them, idk) want accessibility. THey want everyone to be able to log in and complete the whole game without help, effectively killing the social aspect of the game, the challenge, and more a lot of people the fun. And guess what, they always forget to scale the difficulty back up based on the amount of people doing the same task. If there is going to be a solo experience in mmo, scale the difficulty up when more people show up or keep the solo out of the mmo.
What makes you think that people want to just be able to complete the game without help? Most people want to be able to stay relevant in the game with or without help.
The vanilla WoW forums were filled with topics of people asking for means to be relevant and part of the community other than 40 man raids. They weren't asking for a free pass they wanted ways to get descent gear via soloing, they wanted ways via small groups. They wanted the freedom to play the way that suits the best during the hours available instead of being told Raid or be irrelevant.
There were very few people asking for Raid equivalent gear a lot of people were asking for gear that would let skill beat out item level in PvP and such things. What people don't want is large time sinks, they don't want to work in a game they want to fun and isn't that what games are all about.
If board games or card games felt like work would we even play them?
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
Old school grinding mechanics are great fro passing time when you do not really want to expand too much thinking power on your game. In contrast, casual games allow me to play MMORPGs as a hobby rather than a time waster.
What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
One of the reasons is that people don't want to be required to play 20+ Hours a week to progress in games. I remember playing SWG and the only way to progress in the game at a certain point was to change my class entirely Grind out Holocrons so I could become a force sensitive and be able to play a Jedi it was a good few hundred hours of work.
People just don't want to do that and even back then most people did not want to do that. Players like myself were the ones that played EQ for a month and then said why do I come home from work sit down at a computer and go back to work......
In some respects gave have become to easy but that being said I would much rather play an easier game and have fun while playing then spend hours working on my character online with a significant portion of that time being spent experiencing frustration and wondering why I pay to have a second job......
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
You have no idea how old I am and assume that I am part of a certain generation and you highlight one line in my post completely ignoring the context that it was given in.
I said that given a choice I would pick an easier game instead of a difficult frustrating one that requires 20+ hours a week which in terms of time invested is the equivalent of having a second job just to stay a relevant part of the community!
I grew up playing old school MMORPGs the thing is I always quit them as there were other demands on my time that spending the time in game when I could not be part of the greater community due to an incapability of devoting the hours required in the way required to be part of it and the way I had to devote those hours become unrewarding.
This is the typical response of most people on this forum the ADD Generation, The Casuals, The Entitled ones. You have no idea what your talking about everyone has their own reasons for their own play style current MMOs are a result of what consumers want and a result of all the people that quit those old games because they could not find anything they liked in them to keep them playing.
You can keep raging against a different perspective or you can accept that their are different play styles out there and MMORPGs can cater to different crowds.
Clearly MMOs cannot cater to different crowds or you would not have a ton of mmo people running around pissed that mmos have been destroyed by casuals. If hardcore mmo players had a place to go that had a blizzard like budget they would go there and not be on this forum.
Like any market there needs to be a sizable demand to justify the investment in the product. Right now there are places you can go that still cater to the more hardcore crowd like EQ1 and DAOC. Most people just don't want to play those older games anymore
One of the reasons there aren't more hardcore MMOs out there is because they fail not enough people want to play them therefore you don't get the budget that AAA MMOs get. There is a fantastic Sandbox out there named the Saga of Ryzom it came out a few years back no one played it... Vanguard was unable to be completed on it's budget was not able to attract a player base and failed.
Brad McQuaid is trying to make the Hardcore MMO and can't get funding to make it.......
If there is not enough demand for something they won't make it. Look back a few years ago fantasy was not cool, Sci Fi was the place of Nerds now the market has changed and those things are everywhere. A Good Sci Fi movie was once every few years. To get you Sci Fi and Fantasy fixes books were about your only option. Now there's a ton of fantasy and Sci Fi themed movies and TV shows.
It's supply and demand and right now AAA developers don't believe that spending 100+ mil on a Hardcore MMO will bring them the money they want or the subscriber base they want. It's not fun for those that want that type of game but its the reality of the Market. In the days of the old school MMOs all those casual and other types players that quit were sitting around saying I can't wait till someone makes one of these for me and Blizzard did and got Rich off it.
If there is really such a huge demand for Old School MMOs someone will make one and rake in the riches associated with it.
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
Old school grinding mechanics are great fro passing time when you do not really want to expand too much thinking power on your game. Casual games allow me to play MMORPGs as a hobby rather than a time waster.
Hobbies are time wasters.. That is the point to waste time.
What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
One of the reasons is that people don't want to be required to play 20+ Hours a week to progress in games. I remember playing SWG and the only way to progress in the game at a certain point was to change my class entirely Grind out Holocrons so I could become a force sensitive and be able to play a Jedi it was a good few hundred hours of work.
People just don't want to do that and even back then most people did not want to do that. Players like myself were the ones that played EQ for a month and then said why do I come home from work sit down at a computer and go back to work......
In some respects gave have become to easy but that being said I would much rather play an easier game and have fun while playing then spend hours working on my character online with a significant portion of that time being spent experiencing frustration and wondering why I pay to have a second job......
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
You have no idea how old I am and assume that I am part of a certain generation and you highlight one line in my post completely ignoring the context that it was given in.
I said that given a choice I would pick an easier game instead of a difficult frustrating one that requires 20+ hours a week which in terms of time invested is the equivalent of having a second job just to stay a relevant part of the community!
I grew up playing old school MMORPGs the thing is I always quit them as there were other demands on my time that spending the time in game when I could not be part of the greater community due to an incapability of devoting the hours required in the way required to be part of it and the way I had to devote those hours become unrewarding.
This is the typical response of most people on this forum the ADD Generation, The Casuals, The Entitled ones. You have no idea what your talking about everyone has their own reasons for their own play style current MMOs are a result of what consumers want and a result of all the people that quit those old games because they could not find anything they liked in them to keep them playing.
You can keep raging against a different perspective or you can accept that their are different play styles out there and MMORPGs can cater to different crowds.
Clearly MMOs cannot cater to different crowds or you would not have a ton of mmo people running around pissed that mmos have been destroyed by casuals. If hardcore mmo players had a place to go that had a blizzard like budget they would go there and not be on this forum.
Well there's EVE online. Wasn't that the heaven for so called hardcorers. Cuz I see whole lot of them bitching around every now and then and there are other bunch of other people going crazy over the current state of MMOs, which I love though. Mostly free games, with mroe and more ex-premium games (hah lol "premium" )
But yeah you get my point. Even the "hardcore" games are not worth it. And you just pass the time on boards pissing people off that care for certain games. Oh well, I guess that's what the internet is for.
I was just thinking about this the other day, after I played a beta weekend of one of the new mmos (been playing both the big ones that will be coming out). I am not a big action combat person, but even the action combat is somewhat slow, it is like they are giving you way too much time to react, their is almost no point to it. I hate telegraphing, but I have learned that you have to just deal with what everyone is doing (like instances).
People killed TSW for its combat, but unless I am having memory issues (since, I do not play it currently), it seemed like their action combat gave a lot less time to respond. Seems like it hasn't been that long, and things have slowed down a lot, even since TSW for major mmos.
I have never been a fan of the leveling curve of most post EQ mmos, many have become, you play a month, and you are max everything, level, crafting, etc.. MMOs are designed more for game jumpers now, and less time is put into detail/diversity imo. You rarely have many starting areas for races, like you did in EQ. Now you get a story (which I do not play mmos for a story to take center stage), which is catered around only having 1-2 starting areas, so the developers can save time/money and keep things super railed.
If things go much further, I will probably be done with MMOs, they will just be lobby games, I like some lobby games, but I play a MMO to scratch a certain gaming itch, and it has always been my #1 form of gaming. I play LoL type games, Civ type games and such, but I always like the evolving work/grind that you work towards in more traditional mmos. I don't need to be max everything in 2-4 weeks, if I am given something, it isn't as fulfilling as it taking longer for me. Some people hate the grind / time sink, but I think that is what a MMO needs for longevity for individuals, not market longevity, since you have game jumpers and a bigger online base to pull from now.
I had never played a MMO for less than a year, prior to Rift, now it is common to get to the end of the story or play time in my free month if it is p2p, then I toss it away. That is more like a single player or lobby game, not MMO imo.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
It depends on what you're saying is difficult. Killing a single mob may not be difficult, but it would be difficult to max out if there are more consequences to dying in these "harder" games.
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
Old school grinding mechanics are great fro passing time when you do not really want to expand too much thinking power on your game. Casual games allow me to play MMORPGs as a hobby rather than a time waster.
Hobbies are time wasters.. That is the point to waste time.
Maybe to you. I prefer to pursue hobbies that challenge me intellectually. If I am challenged in my hobbies, I am exercising my thinking and that is not a 'time waster' to me.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
It depends on what you're saying is difficult. Killing a single mob may not be difficult, but it would be difficult to max out if there are more consequences to dying in these "harder" games.
That really depends on how much you value endurance challenges. Personally I will value an intellectual challenge way higher and consider endurance challenges to be lowest common denominator. IT is the difference between not beating a game because it is hard and not beating a game because it was so boring you fell asleep while playing it.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
They were always easy, they just take less time now.
People always seem to confuse challenging with time consuming.
It depends on what you're saying is difficult. Killing a single mob may not be difficult, but it would be difficult to max out if there are more consequences to dying in these "harder" games.
That really depends on how much you value endurance challenges. Personally I will value an intellectual challenge way higher and consider endurance challenges to be lowest common denominator. IT is the difference between not beating a game because it is hard and not beating a game because it was so boring you fell asleep while playing it.
Well those two things aren't at odds with each other, so there's no point in comparing them. You can have an "endurance challenge" that is also intellectually challenging.
Comments
+1
This seems to be the case IMO
Corpse runs and lost exp didn't seem to be a part of the challenge just another way of slowing me down especially since you can die due to lag spikes.....
Slowing you down from what?
I don't really need to simulate it. It's all in my mind for the most part. That's what RPGs area all about more then loot grind or dungeon grind. They are experiencing a place in a fantasy world. You don't really need more then a world to accomplish that. If you are playing a game just to kill and loot with friends then you could play a any number of games out there that are not MMORPGs. I believe a lot of people find things boring because they just have no feeling for what it would be like to experience said thing in person. Obviously it will be boring if you just look at it as having to wait around, but even that could be twisted because you are feeling what said character would be feeling in an RPG if they had to wait around.
They are also a good way to increase social interaction and character dependency. They are more then just a time sink to keep you playing longer.
How is my party dying from a lag spike then making us spend some time doing a corpse run and losing exp and then starting over building character dependency and increasing social interaction it's frustrating and annoying and forces me to regain something I have already attained. In your opinion it may add something to the gaming experience but to me it's a reason to go find another game to play.
If that's the experience that you want then you should be playing on an RP server. Role Playing is about creating a character and playing that character even if they are in direct conflict of how you normally are as a person.
Most MMORPGs have been game where you kill and loot with friends weather it's other players or mobs, that's been a large part of MMOs since their inception.
Many people don't want to spend all of their time in a game submerging who they are as a person and role playing which is why things like story and choices in said story are becoming important to let people role play without having to stay in character while playing the game.
When I truly want to experience role playing I go play Pen and Paper because I will be in a group that will want to role play.
There are very few people that play an MMORPG to have a "pure" role playing experience such as the one you described even on RP servers people slip out of character it's not an easy thing to accomplish. As a developer I am not going to try and cater to the very small crowd that enjoy it I am going to try and appeal to a broader audience.
Progressing through the game having to retread over older content due to a server issue or other internet service related glitch.
And here's where we define passing time vs. hobby. The ADD generation couldn't focus long enough for the latter, so we market the former.
As if that is a bad thing. I don't see a reason why people shouldn't have entertainment the way they like it. It is not like playing a longer game is a virtual or anything.
As a Lineage 2 player, that almost never died by a mob, I can wholeheartedly say that it is an annoying mechanic. Same in WoW. The AI in most MMOs is so stiff that it's super easy to avoid dying unless you go greedy, like seriously. What are we discussing in here...
You have no idea how old I am and assume that I am part of a certain generation and you highlight one line in my post completely ignoring the context that it was given in.
I said that given a choice I would pick an easier game instead of a difficult frustrating one that requires 20+ hours a week which in terms of time invested is the equivalent of having a second job just to stay a relevant part of the community!
I grew up playing old school MMORPGs the thing is I always quit them as there were other demands on my time that spending the time in game when I could not be part of the greater community due to an incapability of devoting the hours required in the way required to be part of it and the way I had to devote those hours become unrewarding.
This is the typical response of most people on this forum the ADD Generation, The Casuals, The Entitled ones. You have no idea what your talking about everyone has their own reasons for their own play style current MMOs are a result of what consumers want and a result of all the people that quit those old games because they could not find anything they liked in them to keep them playing.
You can keep raging against a different perspective or you can accept that their are different play styles out there and MMORPGs can cater to different crowds.
Clearly MMOs cannot cater to different crowds or you would not have a ton of mmo people running around pissed that mmos have been destroyed by casuals. If hardcore mmo players had a place to go that had a blizzard like budget they would go there and not be on this forum.
What makes you think that people want to just be able to complete the game without help? Most people want to be able to stay relevant in the game with or without help.
The vanilla WoW forums were filled with topics of people asking for means to be relevant and part of the community other than 40 man raids. They weren't asking for a free pass they wanted ways to get descent gear via soloing, they wanted ways via small groups. They wanted the freedom to play the way that suits the best during the hours available instead of being told Raid or be irrelevant.
There were very few people asking for Raid equivalent gear a lot of people were asking for gear that would let skill beat out item level in PvP and such things. What people don't want is large time sinks, they don't want to work in a game they want to fun and isn't that what games are all about.
If board games or card games felt like work would we even play them?
Old school grinding mechanics are great fro passing time when you do not really want to expand too much thinking power on your game. In contrast, casual games allow me to play MMORPGs as a hobby rather than a time waster.
Like any market there needs to be a sizable demand to justify the investment in the product. Right now there are places you can go that still cater to the more hardcore crowd like EQ1 and DAOC. Most people just don't want to play those older games anymore
One of the reasons there aren't more hardcore MMOs out there is because they fail not enough people want to play them therefore you don't get the budget that AAA MMOs get. There is a fantastic Sandbox out there named the Saga of Ryzom it came out a few years back no one played it... Vanguard was unable to be completed on it's budget was not able to attract a player base and failed.
Brad McQuaid is trying to make the Hardcore MMO and can't get funding to make it.......
If there is not enough demand for something they won't make it. Look back a few years ago fantasy was not cool, Sci Fi was the place of Nerds now the market has changed and those things are everywhere. A Good Sci Fi movie was once every few years. To get you Sci Fi and Fantasy fixes books were about your only option. Now there's a ton of fantasy and Sci Fi themed movies and TV shows.
It's supply and demand and right now AAA developers don't believe that spending 100+ mil on a Hardcore MMO will bring them the money they want or the subscriber base they want. It's not fun for those that want that type of game but its the reality of the Market. In the days of the old school MMOs all those casual and other types players that quit were sitting around saying I can't wait till someone makes one of these for me and Blizzard did and got Rich off it.
If there is really such a huge demand for Old School MMOs someone will make one and rake in the riches associated with it.
Hobbies are time wasters.. That is the point to waste time.
Well there's EVE online. Wasn't that the heaven for so called hardcorers. Cuz I see whole lot of them bitching around every now and then and there are other bunch of other people going crazy over the current state of MMOs, which I love though. Mostly free games, with mroe and more ex-premium games (hah lol "premium"
)
But yeah you get my point. Even the "hardcore" games are not worth it. And you just pass the time on boards pissing people off that care for certain games. Oh well, I guess that's what the internet is for.
I was just thinking about this the other day, after I played a beta weekend of one of the new mmos (been playing both the big ones that will be coming out). I am not a big action combat person, but even the action combat is somewhat slow, it is like they are giving you way too much time to react, their is almost no point to it. I hate telegraphing, but I have learned that you have to just deal with what everyone is doing (like instances).
People killed TSW for its combat, but unless I am having memory issues (since, I do not play it currently), it seemed like their action combat gave a lot less time to respond. Seems like it hasn't been that long, and things have slowed down a lot, even since TSW for major mmos.
I have never been a fan of the leveling curve of most post EQ mmos, many have become, you play a month, and you are max everything, level, crafting, etc.. MMOs are designed more for game jumpers now, and less time is put into detail/diversity imo. You rarely have many starting areas for races, like you did in EQ. Now you get a story (which I do not play mmos for a story to take center stage), which is catered around only having 1-2 starting areas, so the developers can save time/money and keep things super railed.
If things go much further, I will probably be done with MMOs, they will just be lobby games, I like some lobby games, but I play a MMO to scratch a certain gaming itch, and it has always been my #1 form of gaming. I play LoL type games, Civ type games and such, but I always like the evolving work/grind that you work towards in more traditional mmos. I don't need to be max everything in 2-4 weeks, if I am given something, it isn't as fulfilling as it taking longer for me. Some people hate the grind / time sink, but I think that is what a MMO needs for longevity for individuals, not market longevity, since you have game jumpers and a bigger online base to pull from now.
I had never played a MMO for less than a year, prior to Rift, now it is common to get to the end of the story or play time in my free month if it is p2p, then I toss it away. That is more like a single player or lobby game, not MMO imo.
It depends on what you're saying is difficult. Killing a single mob may not be difficult, but it would be difficult to max out if there are more consequences to dying in these "harder" games.
Maybe to you. I prefer to pursue hobbies that challenge me intellectually. If I am challenged in my hobbies, I am exercising my thinking and that is not a 'time waster' to me.
That really depends on how much you value endurance challenges. Personally I will value an intellectual challenge way higher and consider endurance challenges to be lowest common denominator. IT is the difference between not beating a game because it is hard and not beating a game because it was so boring you fell asleep while playing it.
there is no good way to force people to be social. There are lots of ways to incorporate character dependency without tedious game mechanics like forced grouping for all content.
Well those two things aren't at odds with each other, so there's no point in comparing them. You can have an "endurance challenge" that is also intellectually challenging.