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Do you believe in a God
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Wait, Star Wars didn't happen?
I think one of the best results of 'The Da Vinci Code' was that it brought more awareness of the Gnostic Gospels.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
You seem hellbent on trying to make yourself believe that God is just an illusion of the mind...Comforting yourself in the arms of science, that belief which would let man become his inner beast, for he would hold no honor or morality...only animalistic instinct. To follow his urges, his whims, his unbridled foolishness. To rape, murder, and steal. To think if he believes hard enough...There will be nothingness after his flesh has rotted and turned to dust, so that in the great unknown that comes after our short existence, he will not have to answer for his actions in life.
Here you go again telling people that without your god there would be no morality, just like in another post you said that people that dont believe in a god (probably has to be the christian god in your vision too) carry some kind of "unbearable burden"....
Morality is just a set of basic social rules that has evolved because societies that live by these rules survived longer (you wont survive very long by just killing everyone you see, so we dont do that). There really is nothing "divine" about it, there is nothing good or evil about it either. Good and evil are concepts that were created by man, not "inspired" by your particular god. Your bible (or whatever scripture you believe in) includes morality because it was intended as a guideline for how people could get along without problems.
I realise that i may sound a bit harsh here, but that's not my intention and English is not my native language, so it's kind of hard to express myself.
-Argwaan
Question everything
Your instincts are obviously different to mine, and frankly I'm glad you have your invisible friend around to stop you acting on them.
sorry but but scientifically those instincts are correct in all of our genes. You're so scientific in your beliefs, why didn't you know that?
I agree with the above post. Just because one does not believe in god, does not mean they are unmoral. I can use the original poster's argument to say that because he believes morals stem from the belief in god, then he is polytheistic, because before there was chrisitianity, there was the greek gods, the roman gods, the celtic gods, the Norse gods, etc., and all of them had at least one god/goddess that stated it is wrong to kill, steal, rape, etc.
Also, you said "You seem hellbent on trying to make yourself believe that God is just an illusion of the mind...Comforting yourself in the arms of science, that belief which would let man become his inner beast".
Ok, we can put that in your direction as well. You seem so hellbent on trying to make yourself believe that god exists, comforting yourself in the arms of religion, that belief which has led man to hatred, seperation, discrimination, narcacism, murder, hypocrasy, etc, etc, etc.
I'm not saying that all christians do this, but most I have met do and you are a good example. Most christians (that I have met) always unadmittedly have this belief that they are better than non-christians. You trash others beliefs, you accept no opinion other than your own, and you disrespect everyone that disagrees with your religion.
edit: Also, I find it interesting that a christian is trying to use the dead sea scrolls as an example to support christianity. The dead sea scrolls contained many items contradictory to christian beliefs so they were omitted from current religious texts. Also, read the Gnostic Scriptures, which include the Gospel according to Mary Magadalene (and according to many, many others that were ommitted from the bible because the church found them too controversial to what they were trying to teach). Also, a little tidbit about good ol Mary...No where at all in the bible does it state she was a prostitute. That little "fact" was created by the Catholic church to botch mary's gospel.
One last thing. Most people believe that the bible was written the way it is put together now. But to correct the many who believe this, please read on. The bible was put together by the catholic church to fit an agenda. There are literally hundreds of books that never made it into the bible, many of the books being too controversial or too contradictory to what is currently in the bible. That is the biggest reason why I cannot accept christianity. I cannot accept or believe something that omits important facts and details and make a decision based on what others want me to believe in.
No I am sorry to say that in the abscence of any conclusive evidence to the contrary, Chewbacca never existed
I agree completely that one positive side effect of Dan Brown's NOVEL! (got that yet ? NOVEL!) is that it has re-awakened some poeple's interest in challenging the dogma eminating from the english translation of many of the gospels of the apostles. This is a positive thing in my opinion. More study is always good.
But the FACT remains for anyone still in any doubt. The objective of the DaVinci code was to tell a STORY and sell some books. Like all great NOVELS it draws on elements of factual history to root itself in a level of preponderence that makes people think "I wonder, could this have happened". That is the power of Dan Brown as a writer... nothing more...
It is no more intended to be believed as fact than J.R.R Tolkien intended the Lord of The Rings which he based on Western Traditonal Folk Lore to be evidence or documentation of the existence of Elves Orcs and Trolls.
Some of you are truly scary in your abject acceptance of anything put in front of you as being the truth and very sad in your lack of motivation to study anything that challenges your comfort zone of shakey values.
Ask yourself everyday these questions.
What do I know ?
What do I believe ?
Understand there is a difference!
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Your instincts are obviously different to mine, and frankly I'm glad you have your invisible friend around to stop you acting on them.
sorry but but scientifically those instincts are correct in all of our genes. You're so scientific in your beliefs, why didn't you know that?
Well damn... Ya got me there!!!
I guess that finally proves god exists!! You've done it!!!
Oh no wait.... No it doesn't.
Next.
Your instincts are obviously different to mine, and frankly I'm glad you have your invisible friend around to stop you acting on them.
sorry but but scientifically those instincts are correct in all of our genes. You're so scientific in your beliefs, why didn't you know that?
Well damn... Ya got me there!!!
I guess that finally proves god exists!! You've done it!!!
Oh no wait.... No it doesn't.
Next.
yeah ok that has nothing to do with my post. I wasn't trying to prove that god exists at all... Just stating that Aldaron's instinct listing was correct, and you also have that instinct unless you have some sort of messed up mutation.
Lol i don't think you even read that before you responded to it
THE AUTHOR IS A NOVELIST AND DESCRIBES HIS BOOK AS A NOVEL
Actually I wasn't sure what it was supposed to be exactly. I've gotten the impression that it's in some sort of narrative fashion. At any rate, it seems that people weren't treating it as such, and so I'd just like to get a good source that pointed to some flaws in it as well as reading the novel for myself.
And Firemagic, I think what you want (what I want as well) is a voice to thunder down from heaven (in basic terms), saying, "Hello Firemagic. I am God." Not to mention all the cool lightning effects in the swirling clouds and such. But I think you'll have to settle for ghost, angel, demon, and extraterrestrial sitings, fulfilled prophecies, purportedly miraculous events, and whatever consistency of true scripture.
If you take a look at Israel's history according to the Bible, great miracles were done in it and it continued to turn away from God, get disciplined, and turn back to God. It only takes a certain perspective on life to explain some things that another perspective would have explained another way. Ever notice how there can be two experts on a subject and two different opinions? The Jewish Priests viewed Christ's miracles as accomplished through Satan. His followers saw his miracles as accomplished by God. I'm sure you might also be able to find nonbiblical historical evidence to support at least some of the claims of the Bible.
The thing is, you likely don't believe in ghosts or demons either. There are people in my life, to me at least, that carry a good deal of integrity with them who speak of astonishing events. I don't completely believe them myself, but allow me to ask some questions of my own.
Can you see infrared or ultra violet light? Can you taste it? Smell it? Feel it? Hear it? Ever heard of synaesthesia? If you have a form of it, you might be able to smell it or taste it. Can the blind see light? To trust our senses completely is not logical, but is generally accepted, I agree. Also, some people look to the beginning of religion and say it began from fear of the unknown, superstitions, or misinterpretations of scientific phenomena. I have considered these. In ancient times, Governor Pliny of Bythinia wrote to Trajan, telling of the superstitions of Christians and their unwillingness, under torture, to worship the Roman gods. There are also cross-cultural accounts of world-wide floods, resurrections, apocolypses, etc. Some people look at these and say that they are completely fabricated. I think there's a link in them that is more than self-indulgent fantasy. I don't know whether that link is divinely inspired or not.
It doesn't take as much faith to believe in string theory (which is what it's called - a theory), the big bang, extra dimensions, and evolution as it does to believe in God. Why? Because these theories aren't widely being questioned (at least not around me) as much as the belief in God is being questioned. Christianity has existed in some form thousands of years ago and still does today. Why? Maybe because there is some truth to it, or maybe it was simply better thought out than the other religions and its priests didn't give prophecies based on drug-induced hallucinations or influence people to donate their money to finely created machines that were professed to be prophetic devices and appeared to be miraculous works of divine intervention. Just to state something - Zechariah was a professed prophet of God who was (I think) ridiculed and eventually murdered. Not to mention the more historically accepted figure of Christ of "whom the prophets have recounted wonders." - testimony of Flavius Josephus, a historian and general (though he was born in 37 AD I believe). I'm relatively sure you could also find some historical evidence other than the Bible that speaks of Christ's life and his deeds during his time. I've read, though, that some people don't believe that Christ ever existed.
As for the Bible being compiled into a book by Catholics and certain parts being ommitted, I think you only need to look back to Christ's time and the surrounding territory to see which scripture was considered accurate at the time. One of the pieces used, I think, was Isaiah's work. There were already widely accepted pieces of scripture (the Old Testament) in circulation. If any part of it is in danger of being spoiled by Catholic intervention, it would have been the New Testament scriptures. I'll have to do some further research on the compilation of the Bible though. Dekron, if you can list your sources that'd be great and I can read up a bit on them perhaps.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Your instincts are obviously different to mine, and frankly I'm glad you have your invisible friend around to stop you acting on them.
sorry but but scientifically those instincts are correct in all of our genes. You're so scientific in your beliefs, why didn't you know that?
Well damn... Ya got me there!!!
I guess that finally proves god exists!! You've done it!!!
Oh no wait.... No it doesn't.
Next.
yeah ok that has nothing to do with my post. I wasn't trying to prove that god exists at all... Just stating that Aldaron's instinct listing was correct, and you also have that instinct unless you have some sort of messed up mutation.
Lol i don't think you even read that before you responded to it
Yes, his "instinct listing" was correct. My reply to it was simply to highlight the bizarre way he put his argument across.
My instincts don't cause me to think "Ug. Need money. Must steal. Need sex. Must rape. Don't like person. Must kill." at all - not even slightly in fact, but this was the way he put it across.
And the point I was making in my reply to you was that you can niggle over every little detail you like, but there's no avoiding the simple fact that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any of the hundreds of gods being worshipped daily on planet Earth, and the reason for this is because none of them exist.
You religious types really need things spelled out don't you.
2 things, Adreal, nicely put.
Firemagic, I was simply stating when you said that your instincts were different, you were wrong, and yes, i was haggling over a little detail, but i was not trying to win an argument, I wasn't even taking sides in the debate.
Adreal, I am at work so I can't get to many of my resources, but you can read much about the Gnostic Scriptures here (specifically Mary's):
http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
edit:
I would also just like to add another reason why it is hard to accept any religion.
Eternity is a conept that is very difficult to grasp. Does eternity really go on forever, or is eternity a measure of time that was simply created by man to measure the unmeasurable? Whenever I did go to church and hear of preachers speaking of eternal damnation and eternal salvation, I always wondered if the latter was any better than the former. Would I truly be satisfied and content with an eternity of worshiping God? Would I care if I was damned for eternity? Would I really know? Even if God did exist, do I truly care that there is a war for soul? What is a soul?
I began questioning these beliefs and came to the conclusion that IF God existed, I really would not care. My soul would be the thing going to heaven or going to hell, not I. I have no concious awareness of my soul, and therefore I would not feel, hear, see, etc. what my soul would be introduced to.
Then I began thinking about how us humans have free will, and that free will is what causes us to "sin". If I was to go to heaven where there is no "sin", then does that mean that I no longer have free will? Does that mean that I am simply a drone in a large collective of beings(star trek references not intended
)? Is heaven eternal? Even the bible states that everything dies. Did God not say "I am the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end"? So there must be an end, eternity does not exist. Could the end also be a beginning? Could once every few thousand eons god decide to start over? Is it that he purges heaven and earth on all existence until he gets it right?
Isn't god supposed to be perfect? If something is perfect, then it is perfect in every aspect. If it creates something, then that creation is perfect and flawless. If there is a flaw in the creation, then the creator must be flawed.
That's about it for now, just a few of my thoughts.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Actually you couldn't be more wrong. I don't long for a god to show himself to me, and why...?
Because I don't live in a world of make-believe.
To answer the rest of your well-written but misguided post, yes there are a lot of difficult to understand things about the reality we live in but it makes no rational sense to say "Well hey! If there was a god, that'd fit into the category of difficult to understand things! That means there must be one!".
All the things you describe can be tested against empirical evidence except for the various current string theories which, while regarded as extremely elegant by a fair proportion of the scientific community, will remain theories until the necessary equipment is developed to test them.
The beauty of the scientific method is that if a theory is proven false you don't have a bunch of people crying because they really liked the sound of it. It gets disregarded in favor of something else, which is then tested empirically, thus continually advancing the state of human knowledge.
The pity of religion is that when put up to critical analysis, it simply falls apart.
Actually you couldn't be more wrong. I don't long for a god to show himself to me, and why...?
Because I don't live in a world of make-believe.
Actually I think you are looking at what he said wrong. He meant IF THERE IS/WAS a god, you would only believe in it if it told you directly.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Actually you couldn't be more wrong. I don't long for a god to show himself to me, and why...?
Because I don't live in a world of make-believe.
Actually I think you are looking at what he said wrong. He meant IF THERE IS/WAS a god, you would only believe in it if it told you directly.
I see. You interpreted it differently to how I interpreted it.
Thanks for sharing.
Now, instead of picking on the tiniest little detail you can find to slightly bend towards your favor, let me see you rebuke the rest of my last post...
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
think about it, when the jewish people were stuck in that desert for 40 years that is entirely fake. Beacuse, you can drive through that desert in 2 hours in a car. and 40,000 people could not get lost in there without finding somthing. If you apply common sence to any religon it is easily prooved wrong.
Okk... For those of you that know ... I love these religious debates... But I always like to argue on the different arguments going around rather then the proof of said existance or non-exsitance.
First of all.. There is no proof that God exists.. True.. Also there is no proof that God Doesn't exist. Evolution and Big Bang theory is slowly being less and less believed by Scientists.. But they wont tell you that.. They've opted for another theory. the Big Bubble theory which i wont explain. Science is not Truth. Religion is not truth. Science is a study on nature and the things that are physical. while Religion is a study on the super-natural the things that are meta-physical. That being said... let me tackle a few arguements.
If you believe Science then you believe that humans are animals. So lets take a look at the animal kingdom, If two lions like a lioness.. what do they do? fight sometimes kill for that lioness. Also if a lion strays into another pride's territory that lion would most likely be attacked and killed. If an animal, 'A', is hungry and it smells food, regardless of which animal bought the food at the local corner store, animal A will go and take the food. If a dog smells a female dog in heat... that dog will try to mate with the other, just for the purpose of making ofspring. And that female dog will mate with possibly many many other dogs regardless of who she is currently married to...... ----> I hope you see the trend of this... And while i'm not saying that God or the belief in such, gives us morals. But I pose this question to you. Why is it that we have morals. It can't be so that we can multiply.. because in the animal kingdom WE the only animals with morals are far fewer than the ones without.
-Following isn't an argument-
And to the poster that suggested that the belief in a God or Gods creates hate, malice, wars, etc.... (mostly directed towards Christians) Well when people fight I really doubt they are thinking about that all benevolent God that they are supposed to believe in. You could say that "Christians" have been the object of many wars but are they really fighting for the religion? Are they really fighting to protect their faith? In my opinion People that fight in the name of a Religion are basically fighting under a pretense that they use to justify their actions. "Sure killing is bad... but I'm doing it to convert others?" that's just stupid. And it's silly to think that people fight for that reason... And i'm sure that someone is going to quote the Crusades, but what was that, A war hungry King searching for a reason to fight.
-Now arguement about judging others-
Ofcourse you can say that christians judge other religions because who do you live next to. Who do you talk to every day. Who do you see every single day. OFCOURSE everyone in the Western World is going to say that christians are hypocrits and judge other religions. But tell me which religion is more widespread than christianity. Christians have gone to almost every part of the globe spreading their word. Telling people of other religions about theirs. Missionaries are everywhere amoung every culture. living with the people and sharing their lives. That doesn't seem like the type of person that is going to hate you because your in another church. It was said that belief in a God causes Separation.. But what better example is their of a joining of people, To me Religion (not only Christianity) brings people together because you have something in common.
-Final Words-
This also follows from the above. There was an argument that said that christians believe that they are above everyone else. I understand why so many people say this.. And it's not even to say that they are wrong in saying this. But why is it that everyone has such respect for every other religion except christianity. People are soo vocal against it, It is the butt of many angry thoughts. But dont some people realize that christians undergo the same trials. Just cross the atlantic RIGHT NOW and there are countries that will kill you if it is found out that you are christians. Countries that states it is a violation of the law to have a bible. Metropolitan countries too, like Korea I'll guesstimate that as little as 150 years ago Christians had to hide their faith and if they were found out, they had to seek refuge in China or face death. And even today in India, I dont know the state of it now but the government was debating outlawing Christianity.----->
Now i want you to show me a christian people, show me a christian country that kills people of another religion.
-->NOTE: I wasn't argueing for the proof or disproof of God.. Let the flames begin.
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Actually you couldn't be more wrong. I don't long for a god to show himself to me, and why...?
Because I don't live in a world of make-believe.
Actually I think you are looking at what he said wrong. He meant IF THERE IS/WAS a god, you would only believe in it if it told you directly.
I see. You interpreted it differently to how I interpreted it.
Thanks for sharing.
Now, instead of picking on the tiniest little detail you can find to slightly bend towards your favor, let me see you rebuke the rest of my last post...
Like I already said, I'm not trying to rebuke all of your ideas. I'm not against all of what you said in your last post. I am only against what you first said, so I picked on that. You seem to think i believe the total opposite of you, yet I am picking out details because I cant argue against the rest. I am simply picking on things i see are wrong. If i didn't pick on the rest, I don't think its wrong.
Actually you couldn't be more wrong. I don't long for a god to show himself to me, and why...? Because I don't live in a world of make-believe.
Actually I meant to say that what you're probably asking for is the thundering voice, not necessarily what you want. In fact I don't think, with your atheistic belief, that you'd enjoy hearing a voice thunder from somewhere, claiming that it was God. You might then assume either ensuing punishment or natural causes (ie. hallucination, etc.).
we live in but it makes no rational sense to say "Well hey! If there was a god, that'd fit into the category of difficult to understand things! That means there must be one!".
Does it make sense to say that these ghost, angel, and demon sitings and miracles and prophecies and beliefs in divine beings are all linked and could possibly have originated from one God and his continued existence? Is that a reasonably sound theory?
The beauty of the scientific method is that if a theory is proven false you don't have a bunch of people crying because they really liked the sound of it.
Actually any scientific method is not scientific if later proven false. What about the belief in the sun circling around the earth and the earth being the center of the universe or some such thing? Were people persecuted for going against that or not? I, myself, am not sure, but I can say with reasonable confidence that "scientific methods" that have been proven to be false have not always faded away without someone "crying" about them though I couldn't tell your for certain.
will remain theories until the necessary equipment is developed to test them.
Just like the creation theory? Though I believe a good deal of it is metaphorical, and I understand where you're coming from.
which is then tested empirically, thus continually advancing the state of human knowledge. The pity of religion is that when put up to critical analysis, it simply falls apart.
If you agree in part with my last post, then you agree that empirical evidence can not always be trusted. And to those who have had visions (I mean if there are ever any real visions, then that is empirical - sensory perception - evidence). There are also events that sometimes (rarely) tend to defy physics. Ever check out Real TV or Ripley's Believe It or Not? They have some interesting facts. The one that stands out in my mind is the video tape of a 12-year old (I think it was 12) plummeting from a plane after his parachute not opening and hitting the ground, still being alive for a time afterward. There is also the story of the young man who was trapped in some ice from an accident along a highway and his body temperature I think was lowered to something around 70 degrees and he survived afterward and continues to be healthy from my knowledge.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
IN replying to the topic about God and the horrible things that happen in the world today.
Yeah it seems to many people that what you wrote may be true...but the fact is that when God gave us free will he gave us choices. It isnt because God doesnt love us it is the fact that its man's corruption and satan that things happen. IN some circumstances God does want something to happen that will open our eyes. Take 9/11 as an example. In my mind 9/11 was God lifting his one finger of his hand of protection on America. He would do this because we are going being lead astray by Satan himself, and we need to be brought back.
Again the one quote that the staff has on all of his posts.
The one thing that satan did in the 20th centrury was make us believe that satan didnt exist