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Do you believe in a God
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"Is history fictional?" is not a yes or no question, because parts of accepted history are fictional and parts are true accounts.
Regardless, "history" is an abstract concept that exists only in the human mind, very much like all gods.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
By your same proof... Atoms dont exist. Because even though there are Trillions and Trillions of Atoms in the world Not one person has actually SEEN one... The same way again ELECTRONS dont exist... AGAIN NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN THE ENTIRE WORLD has seen an electron... So therefore THEY do NOT exist ... And Even Scientist Admit they cannot even Tell exactly what an electron is!!! It is both an entity and a wave and a Cloud, At different times and space and yet At the same time and in the same space....
So by your proof of the non-existence of God. It follows that Atoms dont exist and therefore, nothing exists since science says that everything is composed of atoms...
DANG that was so easy
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Awww... You were bursting to come out with that one weren't you! LOL
Now please explain how this proves that god exists.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Ever heard of the electron microscope? How about the atomic force microscope?
Yes, I hate to break it to you but both atoms and electrons have been observed by humans.
Do a little more research before you post uneducated inaccuracies and embarrass yourself.
No. The fact that you're unable to understand my statement illustrates nothing more than your determination to remain ignorant to the harsh reality that the god you've built your belief system around is nothing more than a figment of your imagination.
This coming from a man that relatively decides what things that are unrecognized by senses, to be true or false...
Someone who can't even decide where they stand on their own pattern of thought doesn't have much room to say what is "harsh reality" when they themselves set a pattern of rules to decide what is reality, but only follows them when it fits his agenda.
Ever thought of going into politics?
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
You still haven't given a rebuttal to my post. All you seem able to do is get extremely confused.
What evidence do you have to suggest that a god might exist, other than a hunch? If you don't have any evidence then we'll have to agree that he doesn't exist and you only pretend he does because you're scared.
Please, enlighten me...
I'm not the one trying to prove anything. You're the one that came and is trying to prove he doesn't exist. But yet all you have to back up that statement is your own personal belief is, "If I don't see it, feel it, taste it, smell it, or hear it. It doesn't exist"
Which would make 99.9% of the universe(as well as history) non-existant...
Again...I'm not the one trying to prove anything...So unless you can prove he doesn't exist(which beating your chest and showing a humongous ego doesn't work)...You'd be the one that's wrong here.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Reread my post to see how wrong you are. I said that anything you can't see, feel, taste, smell or hear is outside the realm of our senses. Read a few times over if you need to. I'm sure it'll sink in eventually.
When extraordinary claims are made, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You claim there's an invisible man who created the universe, so it's up to you show some evidence.
You've effectively admitted you have no evidence, otherwise you would have quickly presented it to bolster your claim, so we can positively conclude that your god does not exist.
Goodnight.
Except one problem...
You're the one making the extraordinary claims.
By definition...The majority of people believe in a higher being, making it an ordinary...regular thing. You say there isn't, thus making your claims extraordinary.
You can't prove God doesn't exist. Otherwise you would of quickly presented it to prove your point. So thus far, by using your logic, we can conclude God does exist and you're wrong.
Thank you for this sctinillating conversation.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
All in all here is what is presented to us
1. Very intelligent discussion for and against the existance of God (many thanks to ALL of you for not letting this thread go way out of hand). Thank you.
With that said, i honestly believe it will take more than just a forum discussion to fully discuss this. The debate about the existance of God has raged for centuries. To be honest, we just cannot prove it and we cannot prove against it in terms of satisfying the opposite side.
The one thing the Athiests and believers of a God have in common is Faith.
It takes faith to believe that there is no higher order in the universe. It takes faith to believe that fully functional human beings with complex DNA evolved from a single cell mass of protein and amino acids. It takes faith believing in current scientific data that says the odds of Evolution occuring the way we think it to occured is the same odds of a Tornado ripping through a junk yard and assembling a fully operational 747 Jet. It just takes faith to believe the once you die that is it. Game over. When your father dies or your mother dies, she is utterly gone, demised.
It takes faith to believe in God.
It takes faith to believe there is a higher order in the universe possibily having a course of action for humanity. It takes faith to believe that we are not as fully in control of ourselves as much as we want to believe. It takes faith to believe that this world was created in 6 thousand or 10 thousand years. It takes faith to believe in a Loving God in spite of worldly violence and famine. It takes faith to believe that God created Man in his image.
No matter WHAT we believe it requires faith in our part. Even not believing in something because you cannot see it or feel it still requires faith; faith that you do not believe in a higher celestial being simply because YOU have not experience anything.
So no matter where you stand the common action we all have is faith of some sort.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
(My epic post was just eaten....)
Anyway, is it really that difficult to let the ones with faith believe in whatever they want to? Is it really that difficult for those same people to acknowledge that you don't need proof for something like faith? You would think there are people out there that haven't learned that arguing over religion is completely futile. I don't believe in the Christian god, but that doesn't mean I don't have a tremendous amount of respect for those that do. I also ask for the same respect regarding my agnosticism, as it's not about being "better than you" but a decision I've made that's every bit as equal as the decision to follow a deity.
Somewhere you have to draw the line between a religion (which is a beautiful thing) and the people that represent it. Fox News represents Christianity about as well as some obnoxious know-it-all represents those of us without faith. Not all Christians are ignorant bible-thumpers, not all of us without faith are morally bankrupt. We're human beings with the same uncertainties and fears and that should be more than enough to find common ground with one another.
With an open mind, this sort of crap shouldn't matter to either party.
No, I do not believe in (a) God.
I base that answer on my scientific believes. Like many other alfa sciences (anthropology, filosophy, history, etc) you have to weigh the pro and cons of a certain question / theory. So far I find that the scales balance towards the non-existance of (a) God. The arguments presented towards the existence of (a) God do not tip the balance for me, perhaps because I am a little biased because of my upbringing, my education, my surroundings. This doesn't mean that I am not interested or curious in hearing others telling their reasons, that's why I find this thread fascinating.
I'd like to ask some questions to broaden my pool of arguments.
Why do you believe in (a) God?
You certainly have heard lots of arguments for and against the existance of (a) God during the course of your life. What was the defining reason that tipped the scale? I say tipped because I believe that believe can only be part of a conscious mind and people are not born conscious, so the scales started out totally balanced.
Are you a part of a religion? Do you need a religion to believe in (a) God? Are you part of a religion to strenghten your believe or to share it or be part of a community (which is a very human trait) or something else?
In some religions their are many sub-religions sprouted from the original one. Has this happened because of a different believe in (a) God? Has the religion evolved or God?
A lot of religions claim they hold the truth. What is the truth? I mean not the content of the truth but the main structures that build it.
What is more important to you? Believe in (a) God or the religion itself?
Have you been (partly) educated with a religious scripture or rules? Do you need a scripture or rules to believe in (a) God?
What is (a) God? How would you describe (a) God? Do you think that other people (in your religion) would describe (a) God in the same way.
If you were born alone in this world and lived with no human interaction would you believe in (a) God?
Perhaps there are too many questions but I am very curious.
English is not my main language so I apologize if some things are messed up.
Boulderdash
Yes En1gma is sooo right...(guess thats why hes a mod
)
Good debate from almost all of us... I was expecting to see this locked 20 pages ago from the rabid nonsense.... nice work everyone its been a fascinating read so far and still the potential for a nobel prize for someone lol
I was tempted to create a new account called "The Real God" and post "WTF do you mean DO I EXIST??"
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
God is a made up character from 2000 years ago... Some guy probably sat down in his hut.. decided he was bored so he started writing a story about this holy man that came down from heaven to save everyone. yippee... He then most likely decided to convince people this man was true, considering people were superstitious at that time.. That is the origin of "Jesus Christ"
It's all made up.. its made up for people to justify their reason for living, because in fact, there is no real reason for living. My opinion is; there is no real reason, but MY reason is to have fun and enjoy it, or else.. whats actually the point of living?
You keep saying this yet you have yet to present such analysis. Please, let's see it. Put your money where your mouth is.
We can disclude guesswork from the equation. Everything that you can't see, hear, touch, taste or smell exists outside the realm of our senses and we are oblivious to it. If you don't know what it is you're looking for you can only guess as to what it is.
A large part of philosophy is guesswork, dealing with possibilities rather than "truths". Would you say thousands of years of philosophy is worthless because of this?
[b][quote]Originally posted by firemagic
We can discount guesswork because the chance of there being a god is as infinitessimally remote as there being invisible hoovers in my yard, purple pumpkins on Jupiter, or any other one of the billions of trillions upon quintillions of possible "things that might just exist that we can't see".
[/b][/quote]
While this has been true in the past, again I must point out that it has become very likely that we will in the future become creators ourselves, creating intelligence, life, and universes. Just because we create them on computers and call them "virtual" does not mean they are not real. Will a christian say that we are not real because we (or our universe) have been created?
I think the chance that we are the first to reach the point of becoming creators are actually very small (but not impossible). So with this reference I can't agree with you when you say that the chance of there being a god/creator is infinitessimally remote. I have to agree with you however when you say that a certain idea or manifestation of this power (like "an invisible man in the sky" or any other) is very likely to be false, simply because we cannot know this.
[b][quote]Originally posted by firemagic
Nobody has ever seen any of the hundreds of gods currently being worshipped around the world today.
Thus, it's rational to conclude that none of them exist.
[/b][/quote]
If we create worlds with beings with artificial intelligence and don't tell these beings that we exist, does that mean we don't exist? We would be outside their vision/senses/knowledge, but that does not mean that we are not there.
--
My point is that although it is possible that there is no creator/power, it is also possible that there is one. Taking either possibilty as the ultimate truth rather than a possibility seems silly to me (personally).
-Argwaan
Question everything
When I saw this thread, didnt think it was going to last very long and would be closed, but Whoa, 30 pages long. I only read past first few pages, seems very mature discussion, or at least civilized discussion, I've never seen any kid coming in here shouting **** *** God. I don't even want to go there...
A lot of people will say: Seeing is Believing.
Well, from my point of view, : Believing First, Then Seeing.
Yes, I do believe in God. And everything does happen for a reason. Sure, you may not be able to see the effect directly or immediately, but some time after that, we can all look back and learn/feel something from it. But then again, History will repeat itself, because people are too busy looking into the future without seeing others' mistakes in the past to avoid them. *shurg*
So what you are saying is that when the dead sea scrolsl were dicovered between 1947-1956 some guys paid a bunch of scientists off to date them incorrectly? And then continued to pay off any subsequent researchers over the last half century? And that the same goes for every other manuscript ever discovered?
Do you trust any archaeological discoveries, or have all of these scientists been paid off?
I don't believe "in this bullshit because they told me it is truth" I believe in it because it is truth and unlike you I have actually considered it with an open mind, not full of anger and hatred.
Excuse me Christian Archaelogists WERE in fact falsifying information they found in order to perserve their religion. The false information you post doesn't fool anyone.
-Let's all be ignorant!
-Let's all be ignorant!
Well there is a problem with your theory FireMagic. Your "Science" unfortunately is just another set of beliefs. Just like I can't say that "GOD CREATED IT!!" The same goes to "it just created itself.."
Big Bang theory isn't widely believed anymore by acredited scientists because of it's breaking of the fundamental rule of Conservation -> Energy Cannot Be Created or destroyed. So the big bang -> Out of nothing.. something theory can't be possible.
Big Balloon theory is alittle better theory wize... But again improvable...
Science is just a very accepted Faith and here is my reason for such.
----> Prove to me that one + one is two.
You can't do it. Scientists can't do it. Infact at claymath.org (I think that's the website) they will give you 1 million dollars if you can prove that one + one = two. But inorder to function we just have to have faith that it is true. But Alll science is based off the fundaments of numbers... even though we can't prove it to be.
Well isn't that funny..... ALLLL science is based off a little bit of faith. Science is alot like religion, isn't it.
OH man "Big Bang theory isn't widely believed anymore by acredited scientists because of it's breaking of the fundamental rule of Conservation -> Energy Cannot Be Created or destroyed. So the big bang -> Out of nothing.. something theory can't be possible. "
You have got to be kidding! This is insane, look up the theory of relativity. Have you ever heard of nuclear. Guess what? This person really has to stop posting, it's like letting a 5 year old teach you something they've never learnt.
-Let's all be ignorant!
-Let's all be ignorant!
Sentience is an abstract concept, and is thus irrelevant to this discussion.
Lol, I thought you'd say that.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
What Im saying is that I would rather have him not call them fairytales or we might up with people that are too over zealos and this disscuison could become locked
THEMANMAN or Doctor WHo