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Trion Sanctions Harassment of Players Through Game Mechanics

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  • Instigator-JonesInstigator-Jones Member UncommonPosts: 530
    Originally posted by Keldor837

    First, I want to point out a likely reason on why they couldn't assist you (not that you don't have a valid point). Trion has gone through numerous downsizes since Rift was launched due to it failing as a P2P game (not saying it hasn't been successful in it's own right in the f2p market). Rift now uses a third-party provider for it's support services which by and large use what's called "canned responses" while in chat, and they have no phone support because Trion doesn't pay them to provide anything other than chat. They have a catalog of pre-scripted responses to copy and paste into chat, and are likely chatting with multiple people at one time. If your issue is outside of those scripts, that person likely doesn't have the time or can afford the distraction of typing out a tailored response. I speak from experience as I once worked at a company called Sutherland Global Services doing chat support for one of Microsoft's sites. I would be chatting with four people simultaneously while looking up orders, providing links, and placing orders for people. I didn't have time to type out individual responses since I'd get in trouble if I took longer than 30sec to respond. All while doing everything I mentioned in between my responses to four people. We would tell people we WERE Microsoft (since we were paid to perform their sales and customer service). But we couldn't do ANYTHING outside of talking to people and offering services as shown on the site or provided through the tools we were given. No additional discounts to make up for hassles or inconveniences or anything. Since we weren't actually Microsoft, we had no power to offer anything else. What this person you were speaking to was likely facing was simply the fact that they couldn't or are not allowed to watch your video clip at their location due to security risks from using a non-verified site or media outlet (these places have a tight lid on security so sites are monitored and information exchange is regulated). Without that, they'd have no way in which to verify that players actions since you're not speaking to a GM who can just look at what's happening in the game. They can only assist and enforce account, marketplace, and security issues directly. Perhaps when it gets escalated, someone with more direct involvement can take a look at everything.

    Second, if it's in their terms of service and they don't take action after escalating your ticket. Then I would ask them to provide contact information to speak with their legal department so your lawyer can exchange information with them. Since the terms of service is a legal binding agreement for both you AND the company. Failure to uphold the agreement on either end is subject to legal ramifications if the effected party wishes to pursue it. From my experience with said support mentioned earlier. 85% of the time (approx.) a person is ready and willing to get lawyers involved because they know they're in the right. The company will escalate the issue as high as needed and resolve the matter to avoid legalities and bad publicity. Unless the company is certain that they'll win in a legal case. So if you're certain they're failing to uphold their ToS and threaten legal action. I can tell you with certainty, they'll resolve the issue for you.

     Can someone link an article or reference to any litigation that involved an player and a MMO game company, where the player actually won claiming a break in TOS?

     

    I've found articles such as this:

     

    http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8737.0;wap2

     

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/55078/11-times-video-games-led-lawsuits

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3468/Five-Memorable-MMO-Lawsuits.html

     

    These, however, do not really represent the "regular Joe" gamer.

     

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    Originally posted by DMKano

    While it's certainly asinine behavior I don't think it's against ArcheAge's TOS

    OP - can you please link it?

    http://www.archeagegame.com/eula/

    There's nothing illegal about using in-game mechanics like pushing folks with farm carts and horses.

     

    It's late, I'm tired, but I don't see anything in either the EULA or the TOU

    http://www.trionworlds.com/en/legal/terms-of-use/

    that covers what the OP describes as being against the rules.  Like you said, a link to the specific clauses would be helpful since there is a lot of legalize to sort through.

    Of course, the OP raises a few questions, what did the OP and his family do to provoke such ire from the aggressors?  Could have been entirely unprovoked, but frequently this is not the case.

    2nd, one of the best ways to solve this sort of problem is to ignore, go off and leave for a bit, do something else, usually the other people will tire of the action if they know it really doesn't provoke a response.

    3rd, move your farms somewhere else.  Not terrific I realize, but sometimes it is the only answer.

    OP does have a final choice however, they can quit playing the game, always your best option if you aren't satisfied with the response from Trion.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by NomadMorlock


    GM Tinen: I apologize, but I already did speak with my supervisor in regards to these actions, and they are not anything that we would be able to take any steps again.

     

    Yeah? If you haven't already make a twitter account and post a link to the video along with AA and Trion tags, that may get their attention.

     

    I have to ask, because others will, you got a video of the harassment but not the conversation with the GM? That would have helped your case that Trion was also in the wrong in not looking into it. Regardless of ToS, actions meant to specifically harass a player abusing gameplay mechanics should illicit a response from the developer. If I seen this I would IP ban (I know it's easy to get around) the one harassing strictly because they drive away n amount of other players.

     

    Sorry about your luck OP.

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,029
    WoW mount issue still exists. You'll see it alot when WoD comes out as release days are always interesting with any game.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Member UncommonPosts: 759
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    I think the problem is that even though pushing and blocking is something that was put by purpose in the game they did not foresee all the ways it could be used.

    They put in methods to deal with problems but not for the ones they didn't foresee which puts them in a tough spot of having to admit they screwed up which would put them in a position of having to deal with the issue.

    It is just so much easier to claim this is intended game play rather than spend money trying to fix this.

    This game has been in release for years now! They haven't foreseen this type of behavior yet? I find it hard to believe that the US and EU players are the first to figure out these types of ways to use the game mechanics to harass other players!

    Trion keeps showing their true colors and bad customer service. I logged in today after reading the latest patch notes where Trion states that they have taken huge measures to eliminate the gold spam.... First thing I see when logging in is a sea of gold spam text rolling on all channels. I guess the spammers are smarter than the publishers/developers LOL.


  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,642
    Originally posted by Varex12
    Pretty shameful display of "customer service" by Trion.  They don't have a clue as to what they're doing.  

    Biggest problem is , this is NOT Trion CS. 

    It is some weak pathetic cheap out sourced CS company.

     

    The very same company now does CS for PWI, Trion, and last I looked Turbine.

     

    Trion no longer gives a rats ass about customers, and as long as anyone continues to spend money on subs or cash shops this will continue to be the business model of operation.

     

    Want things to change, then boycott Trion and let them know you are boycotting them.

     

    Cancel your subs, delete your CC information from your account, uninstall their games, and send a certified letter to

     

    Trion Worlds Board of Directors

    c/o

    PETER GOTCHER AND DOMINIQUE TREMPONT

    Trion Worlds, Inc.

    1200 Bridge Parkway

    Suite 201

    Redwood City, CA 94065

     

    Explain that you will no longer support Trion or any other game developer that makes the choice to license with Trion that you will be a carbon copy to ALL companies that choose to do business with Trion that as long as they continue their association with Trion that you and your family will never buy any product they offer. 

    Further indicate to Trion you will be forwarding this complain to the Scfy channel ( CS 1 (800) 219-1187 ) and indicate to the Scfy channel as long as they run Defiance or are in business with Trion Worlds you will be boycotting the SCFY channel and every product advertised and that you will be contacting their advertisers as well.

    Explain to the Trion board of Directors as long as Scott Hartsman so much as owns one share of Trion stock, has any business association with Trion Worlds, and as long as they do not return to in house CS with phone support you will continue your Boycott.

    Further inform them you will be filing a complaint of record with the CA Better business bureau as well as the CA AG's consumer protection complaints department.

    Then have the will and motivation to follow-up and carry out your threats.

     

     

    Consumers have way more power than they know if they would only stop being lazy and use it.

    If players would start being hardasses we could change the way these companies have begun to do business.

     

     

  • Ket_VilianoKet_Viliano Member UncommonPosts: 271
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Varex12
    Pretty shameful display of "customer service" by Trion.  They don't have a clue as to what they're doing.  

    Biggest problem is , this is NOT Trion CS. 

    It is some weak pathetic cheap out sourced CS company.

     

    The very same company now does CS for PWI, Trion, and last I looked Turbine.

     

    Trion no longer gives a rats ass about customers, and as long as anyone continues to spend money on subs or cash shops this will continue to be the business model of operation.

     

    Want things to change, then boycott Trion and let them know you are boycotting them.

     

    Cancel your subs, delete your CC information from your account, uninstall their games, and send a certified letter to

     

    Trion Worlds Board of Directors

    c/o

    PETER GOTCHER AND DOMINIQUE TREMPONT

    Trion Worlds, Inc.

    1200 Bridge Parkway

    Suite 201

    Redwood City, CA 94065

     

    Explain that you will no longer support Trion or any other game developer that makes the choice to license with Trion that you will be a carbon copy to ALL companies that choose to do business with Trion that as long as they continue their association with Trion that you and your family will never buy any product they offer. 

    Further indicate to Trion you will be forwarding this complain to the Scfy channel ( CS 1 (800) 219-1187 ) and indicate to the Scfy channel as long as they run Defiance or are in business with Trion Worlds you will be boycotting the SCFY channel and every product advertised and that you will be contacting their advertisers as well.

    Explain to the Trion board of Directors as long as Scott Hartsman so much as owns one share of Trion stock, has any business association with Trion Worlds, and as long as they do not return to in house CS with phone support you will continue your Boycott.

    Further inform them you will be filing a complaint of record with the CA Better business bureau as well as the CA AG's consumer protection complaints department.

    Then have the will and motivation to follow-up and carry out your threats.

     

     

    Consumers have way more power than they know if they would only stop being lazy and use it.

    If players would start being hardasses we could change the way these companies have begun to do business.

     

     

    Redwood City, CA?

    That's in San Mateo county, not far from where I live.

    Why write them a nasty letter, when I can give them hell face to face?

    TY for the addy, good info to have.

  • HerzyHerzy Member UncommonPosts: 184

    "PLAYER: I want it clear that we did not respond in kind"

    Why not? How big is your group vs. theirs? An asshat loves nothing more than a victim. If TRION won't do shit for you, don't be a victim.

    You can definitely retaliate in kind.

     

    Just thinking what I have done in the same situation. The harasser becomes the harassed and suddenly their fun is ruined.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,618
    Originally posted by NobleNerd
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    I think the problem is that even though pushing and blocking is something that was put by purpose in the game they did not foresee all the ways it could be used.

    They put in methods to deal with problems but not for the ones they didn't foresee which puts them in a tough spot of having to admit they screwed up which would put them in a position of having to deal with the issue.

    It is just so much easier to claim this is intended game play rather than spend money trying to fix this.

    This game has been in release for years now! They haven't foreseen this type of behavior yet? I find it hard to believe that the US and EU players are the first to figure out these types of ways to use the game mechanics to harass other players!

    Trion keeps showing their true colors and bad customer service. I logged in today after reading the latest patch notes where Trion states that they have taken huge measures to eliminate the gold spam.... First thing I see when logging in is a sea of gold spam text rolling on all channels. I guess the spammers are smarter than the publishers/developers LOL.

    While I am not defending Trion,  code wise they are not the ones able to fix this. I have no doubt this happens in the other version though I have not played them so couldn't confirm this as 100% accurate.

     

    I do not know why they can't just let land owners be able to push those carts out of the dang way.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • HerzyHerzy Member UncommonPosts: 184
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Herzy

    "PLAYER: I want it clear that we did not respond in kind"

    Why not? How big is your group vs. theirs? An asshat loves nothing more than a victim. If TRION won't do shit for you, don't be a victim.

    You can definitely retaliate in kind.

     

    Just thinking what I have done in the same situation. The harasser becomes the harassed and suddenly their fun is ruined.

    So they do the same, act like douchebags, drop stuff on the other guy's property, and when they come back to their own property, well... it is still blocked. What's the point?

    Fighting back is good when you can actually win. Here the best outcome is a stalemate were both lose.

    It's worked for me. Once I took away the one thing they were enjoying (schadenfreude) it stopped. 

    Other than that, what else can they do? Posting on these forums won't help. Someone proposed Twitter and I think that's a great idea. Hit them where it hurts, PR. MMORPG.com is not relevant enough to make them do something. Reddit would also work but if the mods are pissy then their post could get removed.

    I hate TRION as much as the next guy, but XLGames made a shittastic game and they're the ones to blame. Bots, hacks galore and there's absolutely nothing anybody else can do about it.

  • ironhorse1010ironhorse1010 Member UncommonPosts: 12

    First time I have seen comments worthy of not logging in anymore. I have seen a lot of whiny comments. But just posting the conversation is enough for me to stay logged out until they fix this problem and fix the griefing. Thanks.

    And yes I did post it on their forums as well.

  • Keldor837Keldor837 Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Keldor837

    Second, if it's in their terms of service and they don't take action after escalating your ticket. Then I would ask them to provide contact information to speak with their legal department so your lawyer can exchange information with them. Since the terms of service is a legal binding agreement for both you AND the company. Failure to uphold the agreement on either end is subject to legal ramifications if the effected party wishes to pursue it. From my experience with said support mentioned earlier. 85% of the time (approx.) a person is ready and willing to get lawyers involved because they know they're in the right. The company will escalate the issue as high as needed and resolve the matter to avoid legalities and bad publicity. Unless the company is certain that they'll win in a legal case. So if you're certain they're failing to uphold their ToS and threaten legal action. I can tell you with certainty, they'll resolve the issue for you.

    Very risky move - as most companies will ban you if you threaten them with legal action - as they have the right to terminate your account without any notice.

     

    True, but the caveat to a f2p game is that you can just create another account without any money up front and start over. now, if they have a founders pack that certainly puts more risk on their end. However, my point wasn't truly saying sue them. More over use it as leverage to encourage them to take action. I would at the very least recommend taking a copy of the conversation and video and contacting the Better Business Bureau (http://www.bbb.org/). They will review your case and contact Trion. More often than not they will respond to the inquiry and are more prone to resolving the issue since you'll have a publicly recognized organization representing you. And if they still don't, BBB will post it and tag Trion with the case for anyone and everyone to look at and review. BBB's reviews can impact a companies stocks as it hurts investors trust amongst other things.

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401

    My God. All I read out of that chat is how the OP was behaving pretty badly to the GM after the GM offered to escalate the issue.

    But noooooo.... That was not good enough was it? He needed action NOW!

    The sense of entitlement is strong with this one. Seriously... Sigh.

  • MyownGodMyownGod Member UncommonPosts: 205

    All that cluster fuck, honestly, regardless what kind of harassment it maybe, if it was verbal, then just ignore it, and I'm aware that this individuals were abusing the the game it self to grief you, all I can say is, forget about farming for a while, play the waiting game, once they leave, then laugh at them, by doing so it would annoy them for the fact that they have wasted that time to harass you but it was unsuccessful. Happened to me before, so I played the waiting game, and moved on. Then I remember the name, I hunt him down and continuously killing him. It was entertaining.

     

    I suggest for you to join a large highly organized guild, they can help you grief this individuals with ease and also to hunt them down. If you were in Kyrios, I'll be glad to help you hunt this person down, and only attack if he/she were running trade packs to cause more damage, but I won't guarantee any success, since this is outside my guild's responsibility.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    I think the problem is that even though pushing and blocking is something that was put by purpose in the game they did not foresee all the ways it could be used.

    They put in methods to deal with problems but not for the ones they didn't foresee which puts them in a tough spot of having to admit they screwed up which would put them in a position of having to deal with the issue.

    It is just so much easier to claim this is intended game play rather than spend money trying to fix this.

    YOu say that like this is a brand new game.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MyownGodMyownGod Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    While I am not defending Trion,  code wise they are not the ones able to fix this. I have no doubt this happens in the other version though I have not played them so couldn't confirm this as 100% accurate.

     

    I do not know why they can't just let land owners be able to push those carts out of the dang way.

    They should actually make anything dropped on another person's land become that other person's property.

    It's a vehicles though, so its not something claimable, even built vehicles are untradeable. I say they should allow the owner of the land to ban/eject people that is in the block/blacklist for that property it self.

  • lathaanlathaan Member UncommonPosts: 476

    well, at least me, i wanted a sandbox. where people can do what they want.
    running to gm's is not the solution a sandbox player should come up with.
    you, OP, are no sandbox player.

  • Sassy_Gay_UnicornSassy_Gay_Unicorn Member UncommonPosts: 316
    Boorish behavior in a PvP-centric, finite resource game? SCANDALOUS! INCREDULOUS! HIDE THE WOMEN! CONTACT THE LAWYERS! TRULY THE BARBARIANS ARE AT THE GATE!
  • shukoladeshukolade Member UncommonPosts: 113

    Holy crap what a big pile of poo.. the GM did nothing wrong there, why would he remove a cart from your farm if it's perfectly fine by the game rules?

    All I read here is a carebear QQing that he can't plant his crops, why don't you just teleport somewhere else and do shit (hint: pvp zone), if they follow you, GOOD FOR YOU YOU CAN KILL THEM NOW, if they don't.. well, be creative..

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849

    The other night one of the larger "Gank " guilds on my server "Goon Squad" was getting trolled so hard by some guy who must have gotten tormented by this guild,Let me explain. So this guild on the server I played on "Gank Squad" basically is hated by everyone because their main purpose is just to kill players of their OWN faction and then steal their trade packs.

     

      So I log on one night somewhere in two crowns and in this pond has a seagull flock, About 6 or 7 goon squad members were fishing and this one dude was making life hell for them lmao. He kept spawning his clipper and then dragging them out of sight and LOSing them from fishing , It was too funny watching this troll/gank guild cry and complain about this one guy making their life hell preventing them from fishing.

      This was a perfect of example of someone using these ingame harassment tools for GOOD. Everyone else fishing on the lake was left alone except for these jackwagon goon squad memebrs.The guy making their life hell kept saying "THIS POND MUST BE PURGED OF GOONS" everyone was cheering him on, was actually hilarious. Although this game overall is shit it does have its moments like these that are just priceless

    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • JabasJabas Member UncommonPosts: 1,249

    They just start doing this without any reason or was some story between them and you befor?

    They do it only with your family or with others too?

     

    Anyway, imo just ignore this acts, normally they want attention, the more we give the worse they do. And normally they love when someone say that going to complain to a GM.

    They place the cart on farm, plant what you can and leave, pretend that hes action dont bother you at all, dont even speak with him, just go do something else.

     

     

     

  • MalathoosMalathoos Member UncommonPosts: 199
    Could have done something else for awhile till the other guy got bored. I opt for less safe zones, or no safe zones with npc guards that can only be attacked while on your land and than will attack you if your on the land.


  • MitaraMitara Member UncommonPosts: 755

    I completely understand why Trion isnt responding to this. If they did, they would remove 90% of the players there.

    Harassment is one thing, another is that it isnt even possible to give anything back. Really really poorly designed game. 

    If only there was a better game out there...

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Gotta love how some fanatics of this game defend the unacceptable... at least it took 15 posts before the first virtual tough guy showed up, that's not so bad for these forums.

     

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    2nd, one of the best ways to solve this sort of problem is to ignore, go off and leave for a bit, do something else, usually the other people will tire of the action if they know it really doesn't provoke a response.

    That won't remove the cart and other crap the douchebags dropped on their farms. That's the main problem I see here, the land owner should be able to control ANYTHING dropped on HIS land, including removing, destroying or even picking up items others have dropped and make them his own.

    The problem here is both a CS problem (that GM should definitely have done something) and also a problem of poor design and programming. The whole property system is poorly designed anyway.

    Not sure what you are implying, I just asked the OP to show where these actions actually violated the TOS, I couldn't really locate it in the documentation I read through.  If its not covered in there, the customer service team can't do much for it, except perhaps escalation.

    I realize most players today have not played many MMORPG's where griefing is acceptable, in earlier times this was quite common and even today EVE which I play extensively is rife with it. 

    As such, there's some very important ground rules in EVE that apply well here.

    Don't draw attention to yourself.  Stay under the radar of the griefers, don't talk in local chats, don't react to harassment attempts, ignore their actions, don't react, never whine, never respond.  Move away from the point of harassment and do something else until they tire of the game and move to another victim.

    BTW carts and vehicles are expensive, even griefers won't have an unlimited supply, eventually they'll pick them up to drop on someone else's property.

    BTW, the griefers may be doing this to try and drive the OP and his family off their land so the griefers can claim it, if so, this is actually a form of emergent game play and likely the only way you can try to force someone off land in the safe zones, and might actually be a supported mechanic by XLGames.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • MitaraMitara Member UncommonPosts: 755
    Originally posted by lathaan

    well, at least me, i wanted a sandbox. where people can do what they want.
    running to gm's is not the solution a sandbox player should come up with.
    you, OP, are no sandbox player.

    Ïf this game had actually BEEN a sandbox PvP game, the harrassing player would have been killed....

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