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Trion Sanctions Harassment of Players Through Game Mechanics

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  • ITPalgITPalg Member UncommonPosts: 314
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by ITPalg
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by DMKano

    While it's certainly asinine behavior I don't think it's against ArcheAge's TOS

    OP - can you please link it?

    http://www.archeagegame.com/eula/

    There's nothing illegal about using in-game mechanics like pushing folks with farm carts and horses.

     

    I think you missed what this is about, it not about legit pushing people  but about blocking access to a spot with no way for you in game to "unblock" the spot.

     

    Seriously if people are going to do this they need to make it so you can push the cart out of the way.

     

     

    They have already said that they are waiting on the fix to have carts have the collision that is missing from them put in.

    I know you can get fences around your property. I don't know if that stops them or not in the current collision setup or not. I do know they block players and mounts from crossing over (players have to jump).

    ...

     

    This game's pvp rules really suck when you compare them to Eve Online.

     

    I got pushed out of an airship in a safe zone by someone on my own faction (I have no idea how they managed to boot me so fast from sitting in the CENTER of the ship all the way out to the end of the walkway; unfortunately I was not streaming at the time to have a recording). As I lay on the ground dead, with my pack now loose on the ground, they either jumped (why did they survive with half health and I didn't...) or they glided down and then jumped, and picked up my pack then slowly walked away.

    You can do NOTHING about this as it is a safe zone, and they are protected from ANY retaliation! They don't even get any crime points for pushing you off and murdering you! At least in World of Tanks there are times you get kill credit for someone's tank drowning or crashing due to your actions. With Eve Online, you can war dec the sucker's corporation or suicide gank them with CONCORD destroying your ship in the process. If someone steals from your wreck, they are flagged pvp for 15 minutes to yourself and your corp if you are in one.

    People also need to be reminded that Trion is NOT the developer of this game! This is a KOREAN IMPORT that they have NO DIRECT CONTROL OF THE CODE! XL Games is the developer. XL holds all the cards. All Trion can do is make suggestions and work with XL to get things done. If XL can't or will not then it is NOT Trion's fault! You also have to wait longer since Trion does not own the game. Trion has to wait for XL to make changes, then they receive the build, check the build (maybe make translations as they are translating the next build right now they have said), test it, then the players get it.

    Lol, EVE is also how much more mature? EVE hasn't been without it's own problems over the years, either. 

     

    The real question here is whether or not you even want to solve this problem.There are still huge issues that happen in EVE that are left in solely because that's "the crowd" that they are catering to. If you fix every issue surrounding the game world you can actually do more harm than good. Things like pushing people off planes shouldn't be possible or should be punished, but anything else is kinda, meh. It's amazing how large the a-hole market is in North America. So they may actually want their money and want them to stay in the game. 

     

    The game has been out people say in South Korea for 2 years. The least they could have done is look at other games, compare their own, and think, "is this actually fair to allow this"? It just seems to be common sense to allow the other party to do something about it, not hinder them.

    twitch.tv/itpaladin
    @ITPalg
    YouTube: ITPalGame

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Gotta love how some fanatics of this game defend the unacceptable... at least it took 15 posts before the first virtual tough guy showed up, that's not so bad for these forums.

     

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    2nd, one of the best ways to solve this sort of problem is to ignore, go off and leave for a bit, do something else, usually the other people will tire of the action if they know it really doesn't provoke a response.

    That won't remove the cart and other crap the douchebags dropped on their farms. That's the main problem I see here, the land owner should be able to control ANYTHING dropped on HIS land, including removing, destroying or even picking up items others have dropped and make them his own.

    The problem here is both a CS problem (that GM should definitely have done something) and also a problem of poor design and programming. The whole property system is poorly designed anyway.

    Not sure what you are implying, I just asked the OP to show where these actions actually violated the TOS, I couldn't really locate it in the documentation I read through.  If its not covered in there, the customer service team can't do much for it, except perhaps escalation.

    I realize most players today have not played many MMORPG's where griefing is acceptable, in earlier times this was quite common and even today EVE which I play extensively is rife with it. 

    As such, there's some very important ground rules in EVE that apply well here.

    Don't draw attention to yourself.  Stay under the radar of the griefers, don't talk in local chats, don't react to harassment attempts, ignore their actions, don't react, never whine, never respond.  Move away from the point of harassment and do something else until they tire of the game and move to another victim.

    BTW carts and vehicles are expensive, even griefers won't have an unlimited supply, eventually they'll pick them up to drop on someone else's property.

    BTW, the griefers may be doing this to try and drive the OP and his family off their land so the griefers can claim it, if so, this is actually a form of emergent game play and likely the only way you can try to force someone off land in the safe zones, and might actually be a supported mechanic by XLGames.

    Amusing how to answer this, I only have to quote myself:

     

    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Gotta love how some fanatics of this game defend the unacceptable... at least it took 15 posts before the first virtual tough guy showed up, that's not so bad for these forums.

     

    There's no griefing when the victim can fight back somehow. But here, it doesn't work that way. You can't remove the carts on your land. You are SCREWED, you can do NOTHING. Nobody gives a shit about your price or supply arguments, the damage is done.

    Of course the griefers are trying to get the land. And it would be ok in such a game if the victims could fight back. But they can't in these specific situations. That's just wrong.

    And if "emergent gameplay" means "griefing and reaping other players of their progressions without them being able to fight back", then if you don't know what's wrong with that, you're part of the problem why there aren't more sandbox MMORPGs on the market right now. "Emergent gameplay" would be yes, you can drop your cart on that farmer's land, but when the farmer and his friends come with their pitchforks and torches and impale you after burning all the hair off your griefer ass, they are also able to remove your crap cart from their land, or even better, use it for their own benefit. And that is not possible in this game, so what you talk about is not "emergent gameplay"... it's pure griefing for the sake of being a selfish asshole.

    The ability to fight back does not negate the fact that they are griefing.  I absolutely do not subscribe to your point of view in that regard.

    image
  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534

    yes yes yes, you guys wanted a sandbox, you got it.

    if someone disturbs you while playing, fix it yourself damnit!

     

    find a guild big enough and make em pay. you can't you say? maybe don't play in public farms then and go and do some REAL endgame.

    they gave us the possibility to fix griefers on ourselves, by simply nuking them, they are better than you? well, welcome to sandbox gaming, get stronger. 

     

     

     

    so kids, for the next time, be carefull what you wish for, you wanted a sandbox and voilá!

    in WoW on the other hand you could have reported em for blocking. doesn't work in a pvp sandbox. nope sir.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195
       Granted..this is somewhat the nature of this game..but only by half...so-to-speak. At the least they should allow for the destruction of objects on your land tagged as someone else's property. At the most you should be able to pounce on any unwanted trespassers within your "dotted" boundaries...and take their shit. lol. To go slightly further..you should even be able to craft and post signage saying "Trespassers shall not be tolerated" or some such warning.
  • Gobstopper3DGobstopper3D Member RarePosts: 970
    Originally posted by Seelinnikoi
    That is why I washed my hands on anything by Trion.

    +1

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,689
    Originally posted by Thane

    yes yes yes, you guys wanted a sandbox, you got it.

    if someone disturbs you while playing, fix it yourself damnit!

     

    find a guild big enough and make em pay. you can't you say? maybe don't play in public farms then and go and do some REAL endgame.

    they gave us the possibility to fix griefers on ourselves, by simply nuking them, they are better than you? well, welcome to sandbox gaming, get stronger. 

     

     

     

    so kids, for the next time, be carefull what you wish for, you wanted a sandbox and voilá!

    in WoW on the other hand you could have reported em for blocking. doesn't work in a pvp sandbox. nope sir.

    Honestly these were lessons everyone should have learned from Ultima Online.  Open world PvP sandboxes can be a recipe for disaster if the developers aren't careful about it.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by ITPalg
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by ITPalg
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by DMKano

    While it's certainly asinine behavior I don't think it's against ArcheAge's TOS

    OP - can you please link it?

    http://www.archeagegame.com/eula/

    There's nothing illegal about using in-game mechanics like pushing folks with farm carts and horses.

     

    I think you missed what this is about, it not about legit pushing people  but about blocking access to a spot with no way for you in game to "unblock" the spot.

     

    Seriously if people are going to do this they need to make it so you can push the cart out of the way.

     

     

    They have already said that they are waiting on the fix to have carts have the collision that is missing from them put in.

    I know you can get fences around your property. I don't know if that stops them or not in the current collision setup or not. I do know they block players and mounts from crossing over (players have to jump).

    ...

     

    This game's pvp rules really suck when you compare them to Eve Online.

     

    I got pushed out of an airship in a safe zone by someone on my own faction (I have no idea how they managed to boot me so fast from sitting in the CENTER of the ship all the way out to the end of the walkway; unfortunately I was not streaming at the time to have a recording). As I lay on the ground dead, with my pack now loose on the ground, they either jumped (why did they survive with half health and I didn't...) or they glided down and then jumped, and picked up my pack then slowly walked away.

    You can do NOTHING about this as it is a safe zone, and they are protected from ANY retaliation! They don't even get any crime points for pushing you off and murdering you! At least in World of Tanks there are times you get kill credit for someone's tank drowning or crashing due to your actions. With Eve Online, you can war dec the sucker's corporation or suicide gank them with CONCORD destroying your ship in the process. If someone steals from your wreck, they are flagged pvp for 15 minutes to yourself and your corp if you are in one.

    People also need to be reminded that Trion is NOT the developer of this game! This is a KOREAN IMPORT that they have NO DIRECT CONTROL OF THE CODE! XL Games is the developer. XL holds all the cards. All Trion can do is make suggestions and work with XL to get things done. If XL can't or will not then it is NOT Trion's fault! You also have to wait longer since Trion does not own the game. Trion has to wait for XL to make changes, then they receive the build, check the build (maybe make translations as they are translating the next build right now they have said), test it, then the players get it.

    Lol, EVE is also how much more mature? EVE hasn't been without it's own problems over the years, either. 

     

    The real question here is whether or not you even want to solve this problem.There are still huge issues that happen in EVE that are left in solely because that's "the crowd" that they are catering to. If you fix every issue surrounding the game world you can actually do more harm than good. Things like pushing people off planes shouldn't be possible or should be punished, but anything else is kinda, meh. It's amazing how large the a-hole market is in North America. So they may actually want their money and want them to stay in the game. 

     

    The game has been out people say in South Korea for 2 years. The least they could have done is look at other games, compare their own, and think, "is this actually fair to allow this"? It just seems to be common sense to allow the other party to do something about it, not hinder them.

    Culturally, it's a much different perspective in South Korea compared to North America. These sorts of things aren't an issue. 

     

    It's only an issue in North America because we've been taught that everything should be even. Everyone should be equals. Everyone is a unique and special snowflake. In reality, let's say you have a garden in real life. As your neighbour I could build a massive wall to block out the sun from your garden. I could pour toxins along the fence line and it could leech into your garden, killing it, or any number of other a-hole moves that either cross or walk the line of the law. The difference is that we don't generally do that in real life because we are nice people. However, there are also just a lot of closet a-holes out there. Games make you realize that. 

     

    Do you realize how many people get ripped off, of REAL money, on a daily basis in EVE due to scams, etc? Have you heard about people "stalking" expensive ships just to destroy them? These are things that people just do. It's not against the law. You can't sue someone for preventing you from planting your virtual plants. It could simply be someone pissed because they didn't get any land during the land rush. 

     

    Is it rubbish? Yeah, I hate people who stop me from progressing in the game. I think it's sad, too, that people have so little to do in their lives that they will play a game simply to badger someone. Unfortunately, I think that if that's how they want to spend their time, have at it. At least, I hope, that they're getting their aggression out in a virtual environment instead of the real world. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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  • Starbuck1771Starbuck1771 Member UncommonPosts: 375
    Originally posted by Seelinnikoi
    That is why I washed my hands on anything by Trion.

    To bad ArcheAge isn't by Trion. It is from XLgames a Korean Developer and Trion can only use the updates XLgames sends them.

    image
  • Starbuck1771Starbuck1771 Member UncommonPosts: 375
    Originally posted by NomadMorlock

    Status: Connected
    GM Tinen (Listening)
    GM Tinen: Thanks for contacting Trion Worlds Customer Support. My name is GM Tinen. I'm happy to look into your issue for you today.
    GM Tinen: Hello! How may I assist you today?
    GM Tinen: How may I assist you today?
    PLAYER: I'm sorry..it was a very long wait
    PLAYER: I and several members of my family...who are also in the same guild have been targeted by a group of players for constant harassment for the last several hours.
    PLAYER: They have been making every attempt to block our ability to plant on our farms by placing mounts and farm carts..as well as push us away from the auction house by pulling mounts..repeatedly sending duel and trade requests...etc..
    PLAYER: since the wait was so long we actually had time to take video of this happening..and it is still happening in game right now.
    PLAYER:
    GM Tinen: I can certainly understand how that can be frustrating. I will be more than happy to look into that for you! In order to do so, I’m going to need to collect some information from you.

    Is the e-mail on this chat linked to the account in question, or is there another e-mail related to this issue? If there is another e-mail related, may I please have that information?
    PLAYER: my email is PLAYEREMAIL.COM. I can provide you with server and character information as well. One is currently harassing my wife in game.
    PLAYER: I want it clear that we did not respond in kind, and we took every game precaution we could from blocking the characters to turning on auto decline on trades and duels, etc.
    GM Tinen: Great, thanks! Just a moment while I retrieve your account information.
    PLAYER: As a side note the players said that they were not concerned with Trion's response as they would at most only receive a warning.
    PLAYER: There is one character who has gone beyond all others in these attempts at harassment. It is the character named Eyedea shown in the videos.
    GM Tinen: Thanks for your patience while I was looking into this. Unfortunately, looking into this issue, we would not be able to step in, as pushing players and placing a farm cart in areas is not breaking any rules. With regards to the trade and duel requests, you do have the measure to prevent those from being received, as you have already done.
    PLAYER: The player is using physics of the game to prevent game play.
    PLAYER: parking their farm cart on someone else's farm to prevent them from planting is against your Eula
    PLAYER: My family has been putting up with this conduct for almost 6 hours, and I expect appropriate action to be taken. If you cannot do so then I want to speak with a supervisor who can help me. This is violating the spirit of the game and using mechanics in unintended ways.
    GM Tinen: I apologize, but as I have already stated, these are not issues that we could assist with, as there are not any rules being broken.
    PLAYER: I'm sorry but according to your EULA there are rules being broken.
    PLAYER: I would like to speak to a supervisor at this point as you are not recognizing this.
    GM Tinen: I can escalate your ticket, but unfortunately, they would not be able to speak with you directly via chat. They would contact you directly via email.
    PLAYER: I have endured this for 6 hours and a que for assistance for 4 of those hours.
    PLAYER: I prefer to speak to representative by phone.
    GM Tinen: I apologize, but we do not offer phone support.
    PLAYER: You need to escalate this ticket and I will be sending a link to multiple gaming sites where your responses have been posted. I will be sure all gaming communities understand you refuse to protect paying players against this type of harrassment.
    GM Tinen: I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. With the unique nature of gameplay in ArcheAge, none of these actions have broken any rules. I will be more than happy to escalate your ticket, though. You will receive an email letting you know that I've escalated your ticket once the chat has concluded.
    GM Tinen: Was there anything else I could assist you with before escalating your ticket?
    PLAYER: This is completely unacceptable from a game company to allow harassment of this sort using game mechanics in unintended ways.
    PLAYER: No, you have been completely unhelpful and should be ashamed of your responses.
    PLAYER: oh..before you leave, would you like a link to Trion's statements that using game physics in unintended was is a bannable offense?
    GM Tinen: I apologize, but I already did speak with my supervisor in regards to these actions, and they are not anything that we would be able to take any steps again.
    PLAYER: I think I will just take this to Reddit. Thank you for your time and please escalate this ticket.
    GM Tinen: Have a good day and thank you for contacting Trion Worlds.
    PLAYER: Terms of USE Section B (Rules related to "Chat" and interaction with other Users) Section 6

    Trion sanctioned nothing. XLgames did. Don't like it there are always other games that you can play. BTW by pasteing a copy of this here Trion is well withing their rights to ban your account.

    image
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    It is an owpvp centric game and also a player driven game; whether it is economy or controlling territory or anything. the game is designed to allow players to do whatever they want just like any other sandbox owpvp game, so griefing is like breakfast here. you don't like it? come play swtor or wow with me, leave griefers to their owpvp games. and also check the FAQ page of AA, it clearly says "Scamming or using game mechanic in a negative manipulative manner is completely alright in AA since it is a completely player driven game."   

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667

    Terms of Use

    For those questioning if these actions in fact violate the ToU, they do.  See Section 11. B. VI.

    Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;

     

    also

    Section 11. C. IV.

    Anything that Trion considers contrary to or inconsistent with the “spirit” of the Game.

     

    To those that feel harassment is within the spirit of the game, you are wrong.  This harassment is a Denial of Service attack, and is not in the spirit of the game.  I expect those who feel (because you don't know) other wise will bump heads repeatedly with societies laws and legal systems.

     

    Trion can take such disciplinary measures as it sees fit up to and including termination and deletion of the Account.

     

    The mistake made by the OP was not saying said players are in violation of listed sections of the ToU and listing those sections.  The GM ignored (possible collusion) or failed to interpret the ToU.

     

    Lastly

    Section 11. C. i.

    1. Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or “program bugs” to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Terms of Use

    For those questioning if these actions in fact violate the ToU, they do.  See Section 11. B. VI.

    Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;

    also

    Section 11. C. IV.

    Anything that Trion considers contrary to or inconsistent with the “spirit” of the Game.

    To those that feel harassment is within the spirit of the game, you are wrong.  This harassment is a Denial of Service attack, and is not in the spirit of the game.  I expect those who feel (because you don't know) other wise will bump heads repeatedly with societies laws and legal systems.

    Trion can take such disciplinary measures as it sees fit up to and including termination and deletion of the Account.

    The mistake made by the OP was not saying said players are in violation of listed sections of the ToU and listing those sections.  The GM ignored (possible collusion) or failed to interpret the ToU.

    While I'm quite sure you're going to reply with something along the lines of a 'blame the victim' misdirection, your entire position is based on the assumption that the OP and his family did nothing to provoke the others and that the others are doing these actions 'for teh lulz' and not with any specific reason or purpose in mind. 

    We have only one side of a story here. A story that includes two groups of people spending six hours in the same spot going head to head. Six. Hours.

    I know there's a certain glee for some to be able to waggle fingers and madly slam their keyboards about proof of griefers for bad and evil GRIEFER! Kiddies PVPErs rantrant they're all BAD but just the very basic story that we have here is almost illogical behaviour. There's definitely more to this story.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Terms of Use

    For those questioning if these actions in fact violate the ToU, they do.  See Section 11. B. VI.

    Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;

    also

    Section 11. C. IV.

    Anything that Trion considers contrary to or inconsistent with the “spirit” of the Game.

    To those that feel harassment is within the spirit of the game, you are wrong.  This harassment is a Denial of Service attack, and is not in the spirit of the game.  I expect those who feel (because you don't know) other wise will bump heads repeatedly with societies laws and legal systems.

    Trion can take such disciplinary measures as it sees fit up to and including termination and deletion of the Account.

    The mistake made by the OP was not saying said players are in violation of listed sections of the ToU and listing those sections.  The GM ignored (possible collusion) or failed to interpret the ToU.

    While I'm quite sure you're going to reply with something along the lines of a 'blame the victim' misdirection, your entire position is based on the assumption that the OP and his family did nothing to provoke the others and that the others are doing these actions 'for teh lulz' and not with any specific reason or purpose in mind. 

    We have only one side of a story here. A story that includes two groups of people spending six hours in the same spot going head to head. Six. Hours.

    I know there's a certain glee for some to be able to waggle fingers and madly slam their keyboards about proof of griefers for bad and evil GRIEFER! Kiddies PVPErs rantrant they're all BAD but just the very basic story that we have here is almost illogical behaviour. There's definitely more to this story.

    One will side will side with those they feel a kinship for or can relate to.  I do not relate to the harassers in this case.  Since the GM found or mentioned no reason for the assault, we can safely conclude there was none.  The blame lies solely with the harassers.  I suspect they were EXPLOITING game mechanics to gain an economic advantage over a fellow player and cause distress.  NOTHING more.  They found a group of players that didn't want to interact with them, so the forced unwanted non-consensual interaction on this family (they figuratively raped this family).  Their actions had nothing to do with PvP.

     

    The harassers wanted a prime location for building and this was their way of taking it. 

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Terms of Use

    For those questioning if these actions in fact violate the ToU, they do.  See Section 11. B. VI.

    Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;

    also

    Section 11. C. IV.

    Anything that Trion considers contrary to or inconsistent with the “spirit” of the Game.

    To those that feel harassment is within the spirit of the game, you are wrong.  This harassment is a Denial of Service attack, and is not in the spirit of the game.  I expect those who feel (because you don't know) other wise will bump heads repeatedly with societies laws and legal systems.

    Trion can take such disciplinary measures as it sees fit up to and including termination and deletion of the Account.

    The mistake made by the OP was not saying said players are in violation of listed sections of the ToU and listing those sections.  The GM ignored (possible collusion) or failed to interpret the ToU.

    While I'm quite sure you're going to reply with something along the lines of a 'blame the victim' misdirection, your entire position is based on the assumption that the OP and his family did nothing to provoke the others and that the others are doing these actions 'for teh lulz' and not with any specific reason or purpose in mind. 

    We have only one side of a story here. A story that includes two groups of people spending six hours in the same spot going head to head. Six. Hours.

    I know there's a certain glee for some to be able to waggle fingers and madly slam their keyboards about proof of griefers for bad and evil GRIEFER! Kiddies PVPErs rantrant they're all BAD but just the very basic story that we have here is almost illogical behaviour. There's definitely more to this story.

    Along these lines, should not the GM have chatted with the other party to get their side of the story before taking action rather then making a decision so quickly?

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • OldSquirrelOldSquirrel Member Posts: 20

    I sympathize greatly OP...

     

    ...but the a-holes have ruined another MMO for us all.

     

    I see a very dim future for any MMORPG when (1) a-holes, (2) bots, and (3) gold sellers destroy one new MMO after another.

     

    I suggest you end your ArcheAge relationship and abandon hope for a good sandbox in today's gaming society.

     

    I also suggest an RP WoW server if you need to feed your MMO appetite, and best of luck to you!

    "I'm a nerd, and I'm pretty proud of it." - Gilbert, Revenge of the Nerds[1984]

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977

    I remember a judge once saying to a guy that he was at fault for an accident because he was driving too fast for the road conditions... he replied, but I was driving well under the speed limit... to which the judge said, even if you were driving backwards, if you had an accident, YOU WERE DRIVING TOO FAST FOR THE ROAD CONDITIONS.   He then replied, the only way I could have avoided the accident is if I weren't moving at all.  And the judge said YES!... That is exactly what you should have done.  

     

    If I were so upset about this situation that I needed to create a thread on a forum that had ZERO INFLUENCE over the game, I would just choose not to play, move my farm, switch servers.  To which you might reply, but I paid to play the game.  So did he.  Neither of you have any more right to play.  You don't want to switch servers/whatever... then learn to turn the other cheek.  You can turn off every form of whisper/request in game right from the interface.  If you're getting spammed, it's because you let them do it.  You have all the power.  You.  

     

    It's a PVP game... if it's okay to nudge someone off an airship to their death... nudge them into harms way so they get pummeled... have an entire guild corpse camp one guy... then it's alright to make farming difficult for you.  You have already stated that you hunt him down whenever he leaves a safe zone... which is exactly what he wants you to do.  So long as you acknowledge their existence, they will continue to poke you.

     

    I know from my perspective... PVP means ANYTHING GOES.  You either learn to deal with it or you find another game.  Again, I still believe there should be ZERO safe areas.  You try to split the place up... get get exactly this sort of behavior... peeps just want to kill peeps in this game.  Safe areas hinder that.

  • Saio3Saio3 Member UncommonPosts: 88
    Weren't you people craving a sandbox with no rules and yada yada? There you go, Now you have to take the good with the bad, Enjoy....
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
    PvP should be the most exciting style of gameplay, but it is the worst game mechanic for being problematical.  Hackers, cheaters, greifers,  exploits, bots, etc. all end up being huge drains on the profitability, and a drain on the players as well. That is why I am a huge supporter of charging much greater costs for this sort of title and then giving proper attention to resolve those problems. PvE gamescan be cheap and made in a way that there is little to fight about,  but PvP can be expensive and needs to be supported to a greater detail therefore they should charge accordingly.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843

    Too many safe areas imo. They have a system in place to take care of crime. There is no need for all the extra, hard "you cannot..." protections. 

     

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by LoktofeitWhile I'm quite sure you're going to reply with something along the lines of a 'blame the victim' misdirection, your entire position is based on the assumption that the OP and his family did nothing to provoke the others and that the others are doing these actions 'for teh lulz' and not with any specific reason or purpose in mind. We have only one side of a story here. A story that includes two groups of people spending six hours in the same spot going head to head. Six. Hours.I know there's a certain glee for some to be able to waggle fingers and madly slam their keyboards about proof of griefers for bad and evil GRIEFER! Kiddies PVPErs rantrant they're all BAD but just the very basic story that we have here is almost illogical behaviour. There's definitely more to this story.

    So being provoked or even being a victim of harasement justify harassing back and breaking TOS?

    I understand what you are saying bit I think you didnt think it through...

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Terms of Use

    For those questioning if these actions in fact violate the ToU, they do.  See Section 11. B. VI.

    Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;

    also

    Section 11. C. IV.

    Anything that Trion considers contrary to or inconsistent with the “spirit” of the Game.

    To those that feel harassment is within the spirit of the game, you are wrong.  This harassment is a Denial of Service attack, and is not in the spirit of the game.  I expect those who feel (because you don't know) other wise will bump heads repeatedly with societies laws and legal systems.

    Trion can take such disciplinary measures as it sees fit up to and including termination and deletion of the Account.

    The mistake made by the OP was not saying said players are in violation of listed sections of the ToU and listing those sections.  The GM ignored (possible collusion) or failed to interpret the ToU.

    While I'm quite sure you're going to reply with something along the lines of a 'blame the victim' misdirection, your entire position is based on the assumption that the OP and his family did nothing to provoke the others and that the others are doing these actions 'for teh lulz' and not with any specific reason or purpose in mind. 

    We have only one side of a story here. A story that includes two groups of people spending six hours in the same spot going head to head. Six. Hours.

    I know there's a certain glee for some to be able to waggle fingers and madly slam their keyboards about proof of griefers for bad and evil GRIEFER! Kiddies PVPErs rantrant they're all BAD but just the very basic story that we have here is almost illogical behaviour. There's definitely more to this story.

    Well until the other person chimes in, we only have the OP to discuss. 

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by ITPalg
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by ITPalg
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by DMKano

    While it's certainly asinine behavior I don't think it's against ArcheAge's TOS

    OP - can you please link it?

    http://www.archeagegame.com/eula/

    There's nothing illegal about using in-game mechanics like pushing folks with farm carts and horses.

     

    I think you missed what this is about, it not about legit pushing people  but about blocking access to a spot with no way for you in game to "unblock" the spot.

     

    Seriously if people are going to do this they need to make it so you can push the cart out of the way.

     

     

    They have already said that they are waiting on the fix to have carts have the collision that is missing from them put in.

    I know you can get fences around your property. I don't know if that stops them or not in the current collision setup or not. I do know they block players and mounts from crossing over (players have to jump).

    ...

     

    This game's pvp rules really suck when you compare them to Eve Online.

     

    I got pushed out of an airship in a safe zone by someone on my own faction (I have no idea how they managed to boot me so fast from sitting in the CENTER of the ship all the way out to the end of the walkway; unfortunately I was not streaming at the time to have a recording). As I lay on the ground dead, with my pack now loose on the ground, they either jumped (why did they survive with half health and I didn't...) or they glided down and then jumped, and picked up my pack then slowly walked away.

    You can do NOTHING about this as it is a safe zone, and they are protected from ANY retaliation! They don't even get any crime points for pushing you off and murdering you! At least in World of Tanks there are times you get kill credit for someone's tank drowning or crashing due to your actions. With Eve Online, you can war dec the sucker's corporation or suicide gank them with CONCORD destroying your ship in the process. If someone steals from your wreck, they are flagged pvp for 15 minutes to yourself and your corp if you are in one.

    People also need to be reminded that Trion is NOT the developer of this game! This is a KOREAN IMPORT that they have NO DIRECT CONTROL OF THE CODE! XL Games is the developer. XL holds all the cards. All Trion can do is make suggestions and work with XL to get things done. If XL can't or will not then it is NOT Trion's fault! You also have to wait longer since Trion does not own the game. Trion has to wait for XL to make changes, then they receive the build, check the build (maybe make translations as they are translating the next build right now they have said), test it, then the players get it.

    Lol, EVE is also how much more mature? EVE hasn't been without it's own problems over the years, either. 

     

    The real question here is whether or not you even want to solve this problem.There are still huge issues that happen in EVE that are left in solely because that's "the crowd" that they are catering to. If you fix every issue surrounding the game world you can actually do more harm than good. Things like pushing people off planes shouldn't be possible or should be punished, but anything else is kinda, meh. It's amazing how large the a-hole market is in North America. So they may actually want their money and want them to stay in the game. 

     

    The game has been out people say in South Korea for 2 years. The least they could have done is look at other games, compare their own, and think, "is this actually fair to allow this"? It just seems to be common sense to allow the other party to do something about it, not hinder them.

    Culturally, it's a much different perspective in South Korea compared to North America. These sorts of things aren't an issue. 

     

    It's only an issue in North America because we've been taught that everything should be even. Everyone should be equals. Everyone is a unique and special snowflake. In reality, let's say you have a garden in real life. As your neighbour I could build a massive wall to block out the sun from your garden. I could pour toxins along the fence line and it could leech into your garden, killing it, or any number of other a-hole moves that either cross or walk the line of the law. The difference is that we don't generally do that in real life because we are nice people. However, there are also just a lot of closet a-holes out there. Games make you realize that. 

     

    Do you realize how many people get ripped off, of REAL money, on a daily basis in EVE due to scams, etc? Have you heard about people "stalking" expensive ships just to destroy them? These are things that people just do. It's not against the law. You can't sue someone for preventing you from planting your virtual plants. It could simply be someone pissed because they didn't get any land during the land rush. 

     

    Is it rubbish? Yeah, I hate people who stop me from progressing in the game. I think it's sad, too, that people have so little to do in their lives that they will play a game simply to badger someone. Unfortunately, I think that if that's how they want to spend their time, have at it. At least, I hope, that they're getting their aggression out in a virtual environment instead of the real world. 

     

    In your example you would be financially responsible for any damage caused by your actions.  Once the results, especially the poison, cross property lines, then things are no longer a gray area.  It's even possible that those things break the law and you would incur a legal penalty as well as a financial one.

     

    You are right though, people mostly get along because they have agreed to get along.  You are also right that this breaks down in video games.

     

    Developers have a choice in how they setup their games.  They can allow things that people consider griefing because doing so allows for other things that players enjoy.  In Eve, allowing scamming gives players a sense of freedom and realism.  I don't play the game, but I'm betting other things are possible because those scams are possible.  Interesting game play results and for the most part people are happy.  This is perhaps the case in AA, but maybe they need to fine tune it a bit, depending on their audience.  The OP may be an outlier, or they may be the voice of the players.  We don't really have enough information to go on here.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • gekidogekido Member UncommonPosts: 66

    You were pushed off the AH?

    Go somewhere else!

    You are being harassed?

    Go somewhere else!

     

    Of course this being your first rodeo it's understandable that you feel you're owed something.  If you are indeed as mature as you want us to believe you are, this thread would never exist.  A mortal enemy couldn't in their wildest dreams effect me this much in a video game.  A couple of random people have brought you to your knees and you are in turn harassing Trion and spreading viral hatred because of it.  The worst part of all of this is people are actually supportive of your cause.

  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,689
    Originally posted by gekido

     

    Go somewhere else!

     

    Pretty sure that's what lots of people did in other region versions of this game, and likely will here, too.

  • NathiuzNathiuz Member UncommonPosts: 11
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Terms of Use

    For those questioning if these actions in fact violate the ToU, they do.  See Section 11. B. VI.

    Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;

     

    Section 11. B. is prefaced with:

    "When engaging in Chat, you may not:" before proceeding to parts I-VIII

    Therefore,

    "Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of the Game or the Site;" is specific to the chat, as per the preamble and not valid in this case.

     

    Sections 11. C. I and IV are closer to the idea, but are widely open to interpretation and is therefore not a solid leg to stand upon.

     

    I don't have a horse in this race, but pulling EULA/Legalese out of context was what prompted the response.

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