Contributing money is the only contribution I will consider personally. Nowhere did I say I am better than them. I said I found that behaviour contemptible ,I never said I was better. I said it made me angry that I am paying for them to play. I have been supporting SWTOR for years. Never unsubscribed although I do not play the game as much now but I feel the game needs my support because it is a good game. All along it saddened me that my money is used to support the F2P players and that is my honest feeling.
I am not interested nor will consider personally any other support other than cash for a game. That is not elitism and I thought that was the point. I feel companies take advantage of people like me who are willing to pay and support their games and having paid it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Like you I feel games should be supported financially.
The view I have formed however is that subscriptions are bad; bad that is for the company running the game. This may sound counter-intuitive at first but:
a sub, clearly, puts people off buying the game; games that launch without a sub sell "more" = more money for the company.
in a game with a sub it is entirely possible for a person to play every now and again. I month every year - whatever. Playing through all the new content that (in theory) has been released. Seems to happen in WoW; probably does in other games. Paying less for content, as a result, than they would if they had to buy it as DLC.
Having a sub locks developers into an unending cycle of development for what - usually since sub numbers typically fall - a declining return.
So developers cut back - and if they have a cash shop they put more and more focus into fluff which is cheap and quick.
I have hope. EA and Activision seem - with their new games - to have moved towards having people paying for content at the time of first consumption. And then after release they can offer combo packs etc. and bring n further money. At the end of the day this is the standard payment model for most things. Rental, which is what a subscription is, has a place but it is usually tied to expensive purchases like renting a house.
Of course the downside for developers is that if they take - a 14 month content holiday say - they get no money. So they have an incentive to produce content. Which is good for players. No sub, therefore, discourages "lazy" development.
Contributing money is the only contribution I will consider personally. Nowhere did I say I am better than them. I said I found that behaviour contemptible ,I never said I was better. I said it made me angry that I am paying for them to play. I have been supporting SWTOR for years. Never unsubscribed although I do not play the game as much now but I feel the game needs my support because it is a good game. All along it saddened me that my money is used to support the F2P players and that is my honest feeling.
I am not interested nor will consider personally any other support other than cash for a game. That is not elitism and I thought that was the point. I feel companies take advantage of people like me who are willing to pay and support their games and having paid it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
But you didn't have a problem judging people you don't know by saying that their behavior is parasitic. How do you know these people wouldn't sub after trying it out? Case in point , I tried out SWTOR and decided that subbing would be better in the long run so I did that. Now , I wouldn't have done that if the game wasn't f2p in the first place because of all the negative press it got. If it was F2P , I wouldn't even have taken the chance. By what you wrote , you would have considered me to have parasitic behavior. Again, how would you know what my situation was, I would have been automatically judged and that right there is bullshit.
That like me , a Army vet , saying that all you civilians shouldn't have the right to freedom of speech because you didn't serve. See how crazy that sounds?
The whole ESO situation is a good in my opinion and a previous subscriber but left due to being buggy , I'll be happy to come back and drop some money if I feel that it's worth it to do so , if not , then I'm out the money I paid for with the Imperial Edition. No big whoop.
Originally posted by ohioastro FTP destroys the games that people like me enjoy. They exist in name but the experience that we like no longer exist. And it's sad that the free brigade doesn't even realize the difference in many cases.
What's even worse is that pro-subscription players don't seem to understand why companies switch to f2p/b2p. I notice they also tend to blame those who chose not to pay the subscription in the first place instead of the company that wants to increase profits.
^^ there are different cash shop models, and unfortunately for eso this is the short-term greedmodel that awards coins every month. I for one do not want free gear every month and xp, and equally don't want to play in a game where I will fall terribly behind the curve if I go free to play, do jn cancelling my sub and switching to gw2 again. Real shame, I really enjoyed the prospect of building my character with years of good gameplay.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I totally get that the game could be a ghost town if the game never went f2p and I also understand that the game looks busier with their presence. These are irrefutable points. F2P does increase the player base there is no doubt about that. That is good for the game but it also increases the developers focus on the cash shop ,another unfortunate byproduct.
Why are you upset that I describe this behaviour as parasitic. It is what parasites do check it up. You are taking the negative connotation and not the scientific description of the word. Why am I insulting when I have described a behaviour. The behaviour by itself lends itself to that description.
Once you pay as in your example you no longer are a parasite so your argument is moot. Paying for anything means you contribute and therefore are no longer a parasite.
gervaise1 I do agree with your analysis about subscriptions. I am however talking about the current state where they have both subscribers and f2p in the same game. That my feelings are not elitist but that of being taken advantage of.
I totally get that the game could be a ghost town if the game never went f2p and I also understand that the game looks busier with their presence. These are irrefutable points. F2P does increase the player base there is no doubt about that. That is good for the game but it also increases the developers focus on the cash shop ,another unfortunate byproduct.
Why are you upset that I describe this behaviour as parasitic. It is what parasites do check it up. You are taking the negative connotation and not the scientific description of the word. Why am I insulting when I have described a behaviour. The behaviour by itself lends itself to that description.
Once you pay as in your example you no longer are a parasite so your argument is moot. Paying for anything means you contribute and therefore are no longer a parasite.
Because it is not what you say but how you say it. You clearly used the word parasite to insult players with your feelings being hurt and all as you mentioned earlier due to the reason that you are paying for their enjoyment.
You can defend your point of view all you like but you just wanted to lash out and insult and generalize millions of players.
Playing an online game that costs infrastructure to support your instance and state on a shared server and never paying to play the game is in fact parasitic, you are consuming shared resources and contributing nothing.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I totally get that the game could be a ghost town if the game never went f2p and I also understand that the game looks busier with their presence. These are irrefutable points. F2P does increase the player base there is no doubt about that. That is good for the game but it also increases the developers focus on the cash shop ,another unfortunate byproduct.
Why are you upset that I describe this behaviour as parasitic. It is what parasites do check it up. You are taking the negative connotation and not the scientific description of the word. Why am I insulting when I have described a behaviour. The behaviour by itself lends itself to that description.
Once you pay as in your example you no longer are a parasite so your argument is moot. Paying for anything means you contribute and therefore are no longer a parasite.
Because it is not what you say but how you say it. You clearly used the word parasite to insult players with your feelings being hurt and all as you mentioned earlier due to the reason that you are paying for their enjoyment.
You can defend your point of view all you like but you just wanted to lash out and insult and generalize millions of players.
The point is you called people like me an elitist. I think it is quite clear I am not and my description I will maintain is accurate. Too bad you find it insulting when it is accurate.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Playing an online game that costs infrastructure to support your instance and state on a shared server and never paying to play the game is in fact parasitic, you are consuming shared resources and contributing nothing.
Already explained in several posts that F2P players also contribute towards the games. And chances are these F2P players end up spending more money then one paying 15 bucks a month fixed amount. People under estimate the effect empty and low populated games have on psyche of new and present. F2P players keep game busy and help bring in more players and revenue to the companies.
Small minded people gonna think small and say small minded things. They never see bigger picture.
How is it dehumanizing ? To describe someone as a parasite is what you would attribute to a behaviour. When whales and subscribers pay for a game how do f2p players contribute aside from being present. They benefit and feed off the whales and subscribers. That is what parasitic behaviour is. It is not dehumanizing when it is accurate.
There are posters on this very forum who boast how they have not spent a penny to support a game and they do not think it wrong that they play a game to death and not think even once to pay anything towards the product. What would you call behaviour like that and is it not contemptible that other people continue to support their hobby ?
It offends me that I pay monthly so that some other person waltzes in and plays for free. It upsets me that the game I am playing and paying for is spending the money I pay towards supporting these other players. That is not elitism it is the feeling of anger when you slave and slog for the money you earn so that some other person can play the same game you are paying for, for FREE.
Then stop paying for it. Why are you supporting something you feel so strongly against? It really makes no sense when it's your choice.
You've paid for TOR every step of the way according to your own words. You've supported their decision to take on such a model. Do you not see the irony here? It's like being opposed to welfare then turning around and making personal donations to it on a monthly basis.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by kitarad The point is you called people like me an elitist. I think it is quite clear I am not and my description I will maintain is accurate. Too bad you find it insulting when it is accurate.
No surprise there. internet egos are big deal i heard. Never admit you are wrong. Internet 101.
To tell you the truth it is not the f2p players that are the problem it is that companies are taking advantage of the whales and subscribers that is the actual problem.
Players who end up spending money are no longer parasites as I already mentioned so that point is non sequitur .
Originally posted by Bladestrom Playing an online game that costs infrastructure to support your instance and state on a shared server and never paying to play the game is in fact parasitic, you are consuming shared resources and contributing nothing.
More complicated than that. Advertising costs money. Letting someone play for free - in that sense - is a form of advertising. Letting many people play for free to enhance the experience a product provides is another aspect.
And to approach the question from a different angle: do you use a search engine? Initially people had to pay for them; there is infrastructure to support after all ....more infrastructure than is needed for an online game. Assuming you don't would you describe yourself as a parasite? Rhetorical question. Like I said it is more complicated.
Distopia I like SWTOR and I play it on and off. I support games I like that is how I contribute to this genre that I love. I was merely posting about elitism. I was talking about being taken advantage of and about being angry on where my money goes. This does not mean I am going to give up playing the games I love even when they go f2p.
I just find it funny that people do not realise their behaviour is parasitic when they play a game and never think of contributing a single cent towards it. That is all and since I am an internet smarty pants I shall step down.
Increasing the population of a game has not really made the game better as many people have left games that have gone f2p and that again is neither here nor there if the company makes money even if you personally find the game poorer.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Playing an online game that costs infrastructure to support your instance and state on a shared server and never paying to play the game is in fact parasitic, you are consuming shared resources and contributing nothing.
Only if you view it as having no value to have players around to play with, to say they contribute nothing, is quite shortsighted. IF a friend or my wife hops onto a f2p account and contributes to my ingame fun then that's far more important to me than how much they've paid into the system.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What someone considers exclusive is a pretty fair judge of their goals and lifestyle. Considering the group of people that have walked on the moon, or even escaped Earth's gravity exclusive is a fairly safe bet, and if you are one of them you have a legitimate claim to being in an exclusive group.
If you consider being the only one to have ever ridden in your washing machine shipping box spaceship dubbed 'Star Hope' as a form of exclusivity then you might want to raise your aspirations.
Likewise, if you have a stable of cars including an F40, an SSC Ultimate Aero, a Veyron, a Porsche 959, A Zonda Cinque, a Hennessey Venom GT, and a McLaren F1 then you might be a member of an exclusive group of rich supercar enthusiasts. But if all you think qualifies as exclusive is paying $15 a month for a game nobody else wants to play, then you're not exclusive, you're just anti-social and want a triple-A MMO all to yourself.... and damn the devs and their need to make a living.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
, and that pays for the consumed server resources how? It is parasitical behaviour like it or not, unless ofc that friend that hops on decides to contribute because they are getting pleasure out of the game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
To tell you the truth it is not the f2p players that are the problem it is that companies are taking advantage of the whales and subscribers that is the actual problem.
Players who end up spending money are no longer parasites as I already mentioned so that point is non sequitur .
But that is still quite shallow, some people just aren't hardcore MMO gamers and see things far differently. F2P players (players paying nothing) is a wide diverse group, lumping them all into the same behavior is too broad a stroke for one brush.
I f there is one saving factor of the model, it allows all walks to flirt, yet never commit. It's like claiming having trial players is parasitic. Parasitic is a negative condemnation, when in reality their presence carries with it many positives. Many F2P players have a positive influence toward community, many have a positive impact on growth, many have a impact on awareness, advertising, etc...
The model might allow for parasitic behavior, but it isn't exactly defined by it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I am currently subbed, and I will continue to sub unless every user interface I open up contains a cash shop. I like to play ESO because I love the game immersion, the Elder Scrolls world and the amount of content they have added and continue to add. I am willing to stay the course. But if this new game model affects any of these factors, I will move on.
Originally posted by Bladestrom , and that pays for the consumed server resources how? It is parasitical behaviour like it or not, unless ofc that friend that hops on decides to contribute because they are getting pleasure out of the game.
By bringing in others who will pay? That's how this model finds success.. Broad appeal...The main reason I play TOR as an example is because my wife will play it, but she is not big into the whole monetary scheme of MMO's, she's mostly a single-player/ console gamer. I pay for my gametime by subbing when I play an MMO, as does my roommate who is playing because we are...see how this works?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by jircris i will keep subing because i enjoy the game, but this is great news for friends of mine who cant sub due to financial issues. WOO MORE GUILDIES!
That's a great way to look at it
I have not ready all the posts yet but after all the negativity this post is a breath of fresh air.
Already bought the game? You have the entire game and can play without a subscription the way you are now but you may want to buy the DLC they make if it is something you like. Or continue to subscribe and get the same thing you are now plus the DLC and 500 in game crowns per month to spend on any cosmetics you may want.
This is big IMO for consoles because people are more accepting of DLC than a monthly fee for a game.
There is really no downside here for people who are currently playing and it is even better when you consider you have all the current content if you decide to not subscribe. They are also going to continue to do big patches.
Comments
Like you I feel games should be supported financially.
But you didn't have a problem judging people you don't know by saying that their behavior is parasitic. How do you know these people wouldn't sub after trying it out? Case in point , I tried out SWTOR and decided that subbing would be better in the long run so I did that. Now , I wouldn't have done that if the game wasn't f2p in the first place because of all the negative press it got. If it was F2P , I wouldn't even have taken the chance. By what you wrote , you would have considered me to have parasitic behavior. Again, how would you know what my situation was, I would have been automatically judged and that right there is bullshit.
That like me , a Army vet , saying that all you civilians shouldn't have the right to freedom of speech because you didn't serve. See how crazy that sounds?
The whole ESO situation is a good in my opinion and a previous subscriber but left due to being buggy , I'll be happy to come back and drop some money if I feel that it's worth it to do so , if not , then I'm out the money I paid for with the Imperial Edition. No big whoop.
This could end up being very interesting.
What's even worse is that pro-subscription players don't seem to understand why companies switch to f2p/b2p. I notice they also tend to blame those who chose not to pay the subscription in the first place instead of the company that wants to increase profits.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I totally get that the game could be a ghost town if the game never went f2p and I also understand that the game looks busier with their presence. These are irrefutable points. F2P does increase the player base there is no doubt about that. That is good for the game but it also increases the developers focus on the cash shop ,another unfortunate byproduct.
Why are you upset that I describe this behaviour as parasitic. It is what parasites do check it up. You are taking the negative connotation and not the scientific description of the word. Why am I insulting when I have described a behaviour. The behaviour by itself lends itself to that description.
Once you pay as in your example you no longer are a parasite so your argument is moot. Paying for anything means you contribute and therefore are no longer a parasite.
gervaise1 I do agree with your analysis about subscriptions. I am however talking about the current state where they have both subscribers and f2p in the same game. That my feelings are not elitist but that of being taken advantage of.
Because it is not what you say but how you say it. You clearly used the word parasite to insult players with your feelings being hurt and all as you mentioned earlier due to the reason that you are paying for their enjoyment.
You can defend your point of view all you like but you just wanted to lash out and insult and generalize millions of players.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
This guy gets it.
This could end up being very interesting.
Already explained in several posts that F2P players also contribute towards the games. And chances are these F2P players end up spending more money then one paying 15 bucks a month fixed amount. People under estimate the effect empty and low populated games have on psyche of new and present. F2P players keep game busy and help bring in more players and revenue to the companies.
Small minded people gonna think small and say small minded things. They never see bigger picture.
Then stop paying for it. Why are you supporting something you feel so strongly against? It really makes no sense when it's your choice.
You've paid for TOR every step of the way according to your own words. You've supported their decision to take on such a model. Do you not see the irony here? It's like being opposed to welfare then turning around and making personal donations to it on a monthly basis.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No surprise there. internet egos are big deal i heard. Never admit you are wrong. Internet 101.
To tell you the truth it is not the f2p players that are the problem it is that companies are taking advantage of the whales and subscribers that is the actual problem.
Players who end up spending money are no longer parasites as I already mentioned so that point is non sequitur .
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
More complicated than that. Advertising costs money. Letting someone play for free - in that sense - is a form of advertising. Letting many people play for free to enhance the experience a product provides is another aspect.
And to approach the question from a different angle: do you use a search engine? Initially people had to pay for them; there is infrastructure to support after all ....more infrastructure than is needed for an online game. Assuming you don't would you describe yourself as a parasite? Rhetorical question. Like I said it is more complicated.
Distopia I like SWTOR and I play it on and off. I support games I like that is how I contribute to this genre that I love. I was merely posting about elitism. I was talking about being taken advantage of and about being angry on where my money goes. This does not mean I am going to give up playing the games I love even when they go f2p.
I just find it funny that people do not realise their behaviour is parasitic when they play a game and never think of contributing a single cent towards it. That is all and since I am an internet smarty pants I shall step down.
Increasing the population of a game has not really made the game better as many people have left games that have gone f2p and that again is neither here nor there if the company makes money even if you personally find the game poorer.
Only if you view it as having no value to have players around to play with, to say they contribute nothing, is quite shortsighted. IF a friend or my wife hops onto a f2p account and contributes to my ingame fun then that's far more important to me than how much they've paid into the system.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What someone considers exclusive is a pretty fair judge of their goals and lifestyle. Considering the group of people that have walked on the moon, or even escaped Earth's gravity exclusive is a fairly safe bet, and if you are one of them you have a legitimate claim to being in an exclusive group.
If you consider being the only one to have ever ridden in your washing machine shipping box spaceship dubbed 'Star Hope' as a form of exclusivity then you might want to raise your aspirations.
Likewise, if you have a stable of cars including an F40, an SSC Ultimate Aero, a Veyron, a Porsche 959, A Zonda Cinque, a Hennessey Venom GT, and a McLaren F1 then you might be a member of an exclusive group of rich supercar enthusiasts. But if all you think qualifies as exclusive is paying $15 a month for a game nobody else wants to play, then you're not exclusive, you're just anti-social and want a triple-A MMO all to yourself.... and damn the devs and their need to make a living.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
But that is still quite shallow, some people just aren't hardcore MMO gamers and see things far differently. F2P players (players paying nothing) is a wide diverse group, lumping them all into the same behavior is too broad a stroke for one brush.
I f there is one saving factor of the model, it allows all walks to flirt, yet never commit. It's like claiming having trial players is parasitic. Parasitic is a negative condemnation, when in reality their presence carries with it many positives. Many F2P players have a positive influence toward community, many have a positive impact on growth, many have a impact on awareness, advertising, etc...
The model might allow for parasitic behavior, but it isn't exactly defined by it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I am currently subbed, and I will continue to sub unless every user interface I open up contains a cash shop. I like to play ESO because I love the game immersion, the Elder Scrolls world and the amount of content they have added and continue to add. I am willing to stay the course. But if this new game model affects any of these factors, I will move on.
By bringing in others who will pay? That's how this model finds success.. Broad appeal...The main reason I play TOR as an example is because my wife will play it, but she is not big into the whole monetary scheme of MMO's, she's mostly a single-player/ console gamer. I pay for my gametime by subbing when I play an MMO, as does my roommate who is playing because we are...see how this works?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have not ready all the posts yet but after all the negativity this post is a breath of fresh air.
I am not seeing an issue here.
Already bought the game? You have the entire game and can play without a subscription the way you are now but you may want to buy the DLC they make if it is something you like. Or continue to subscribe and get the same thing you are now plus the DLC and 500 in game crowns per month to spend on any cosmetics you may want.
This is big IMO for consoles because people are more accepting of DLC than a monthly fee for a game.
There is really no downside here for people who are currently playing and it is even better when you consider you have all the current content if you decide to not subscribe. They are also going to continue to do big patches.
As soon as I heard this I re subscribed.