Gotta make that Diamond pick axe to mine that Obsidian don't you?
Horizontal progression would be - any pickaxe can mine any material - a diamond pickaxe mines Obsidian faster, and a Gold pick axe mines Red Stone faster.
That is a pretty basic example.
There have been very few examples of horizontal progression in MMOs.
GW1 was the closest, as you could literally start the game at max level and unlock skills and skins after that.
UO had such fast progression there was very little vertical to it compared to say EQ which was mostly vertical.
SWG had vertical progression in unlocking new abilities and access to new gear, which had better "stats" - but your character didn't really change their core stats all too much (if I remember correctly).
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Which leads us back to my original post: a level 10 GW2 character is completely incapable of beating all of the game's challenges. (See also the previous poster who broke it down by the progression features.)
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element)
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
You want a concrete example, Im playing GW2 now, in the same gear i got a year ago, im very competitive, and lethal against anyone with lesser skill. Ive immediately picked up on the progression i was working on a year ago - weapon skin, ascended gear, pvp xp, gold for materials.
If i walked into WOW i would not be able to play content until I catch up on the vertical power curve (dps) . You must catch up or you cannot play content properly, you then must play x hours per week to maintain that position. This is vertical.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Horizontal progression is about the quest of acquiring cosmetic intangibles.
Vertical progression is based on acquiring power.
Horizontal progression involves everyone being on the same power spectrum in regards to combat with the only difference being differing appearance and/or items. Ie., non-stat armor and weapons, hats, mounts, vehicles, bigger and better homes, furniture etc.
Vertical progression involves game play that allows for itemization with progressive and increasing stats that give one player an advantage over another.
GW1 is a good example of a game philosophy based on horizontal progression.
WoW is a good example of a game philosophy based on vertical progression.
Horizontal progression is about the quest of acquiring cosmetic intangibles.
Vertical progression is based on acquiring power.
Horizontal progression involves everyone being on the same power spectrum in regards to combat with the only difference being differing appearance and/or items. Ie., non-stat armor and weapons, hats, mounts, vehicles, bigger and better homes, furniture etc.
Vertical progression involves game play that allows for itemization with progressive and increasing stats that give one player an advantage over another.
GW1 is a good example of horizontal progression.
WoW is a good example of vertical progression.
indeed and I can expand
GW2 is a decent example of horizontal progression,
Rift is a good example of vertical,
EVE is a brilliant example of horizontal
ESO is a good example of horizontal
etc etc
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Which leads us back to my original post: a level 10 GW2 character is completely incapable of beating all of the game's challenges. (See also the previous poster who broke it down by the progression features.)
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element)
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
Skill wins because difference between exotic and ascended is negligible.
You would know that if you actually played the game.
Masteries dont add power to your character. They unlock additional options (as far as we know so far)
GW2 would be better off with no levels, but in grand scheme of things, in 3 years my level 80 aquired NO power upgrades. OTOH it aquired nifty options in vast majority of game.
THATS horizontal progression. Try doing that in vertical progression and lmk how far do you get with your character at power cap of 3 years ago. Or 5 years ago. Or 10 years ago.
Yes, time plays major factor.
Even in GW1 you had to spend little time leveling, in EvE you need to spend little time getting skills to be effective with 1 type of ship, but power plateau is VERY real, once you reach it thats it.
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Which leads us back to my original post: a level 10 GW2 character is completely incapable of beating all of the game's challenges. (See also the previous poster who broke it down by the progression features.)
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element)
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
You want a concrete example, Im playing GW2 now, in the same gear i got a year ago, im very competitive, and lethal against anyone with lesser skill. Ive immediately picked up on the progression i was working on a year ago - weapon skin, ascended gear, pvp xp, gold for materials.
If i walked into WOW i would not be able to play content until I catch up on the vertical power curve (dps) . You must catch up or you cannot play content properly, you then must play x hours per week to maintain that position. This is vertical.
Just because you're ignoring better gear available doesn't mean everyone else is. And gimping yourself and saying "you're very competitive" does not make it so.
Point blank, given equal skill someone with few mastery points and in noob 80 gear is going to lose to someone with max mastery points and in ascended gear and whatever other higher ladder gear HoT introduces.
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Which leads us back to my original post: a level 10 GW2 character is completely incapable of beating all of the game's challenges. (See also the previous poster who broke it down by the progression features.)
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element)
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
You want a concrete example, Im playing GW2 now, in the same gear i got a year ago, im very competitive, and lethal against anyone with lesser skill. Ive immediately picked up on the progression i was working on a year ago - weapon skin, ascended gear, pvp xp, gold for materials.
If i walked into WOW i would not be able to play content until I catch up on the vertical power curve (dps) . You must catch up or you cannot play content properly, you then must play x hours per week to maintain that position. This is vertical.
Just because you're ignoring better gear available doesn't mean everyone else is. And gimping yourself and saying "you're very competitive" does not make it so.
Point blank, given equal skill someone with few mastery points and in noob 80 gear is going to lose to someone with max mastery points and in ascended gear and whatever other higher ladder gear HoT introduces.
[mod edit]
And in sPvP theres no power progression whatsoever.
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Which leads us back to my original post: a level 10 GW2 character is completely incapable of beating all of the game's challenges. (See also the previous poster who broke it down by the progression features.)
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element)
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
You want a concrete example, Im playing GW2 now, in the same gear i got a year ago, im very competitive, and lethal against anyone with lesser skill. Ive immediately picked up on the progression i was working on a year ago - weapon skin, ascended gear, pvp xp, gold for materials.
If i walked into WOW i would not be able to play content until I catch up on the vertical power curve (dps) . You must catch up or you cannot play content properly, you then must play x hours per week to maintain that position. This is vertical.
Just because you're ignoring better gear available doesn't mean everyone else is. And gimping yourself and saying "you're very competitive" does not make it so.
Point blank, given equal skill someone with few mastery points and in noob 80 gear is going to lose to someone with max mastery points and in ascended gear and whatever other higher ladder gear HoT introduces.
[mod edit]
And in sPvP theres no power progression whatsoever.
and if sPvp was 100% of the gameplay GW2 offered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Seeing as it isn't, here we are.
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Which leads us back to my original post: a level 10 GW2 character is completely incapable of beating all of the game's challenges. (See also the previous poster who broke it down by the progression features.)
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element)
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
You want a concrete example, Im playing GW2 now, in the same gear i got a year ago, im very competitive, and lethal against anyone with lesser skill. Ive immediately picked up on the progression i was working on a year ago - weapon skin, ascended gear, pvp xp, gold for materials.
If i walked into WOW i would not be able to play content until I catch up on the vertical power curve (dps) . You must catch up or you cannot play content properly, you then must play x hours per week to maintain that position. This is vertical.
Just because you're ignoring better gear available doesn't mean everyone else is. And gimping yourself and saying "you're very competitive" does not make it so.
Point blank, given equal skill someone with few mastery points and in noob 80 gear is going to lose to someone with max mastery points and in ascended gear and whatever other higher ladder gear HoT introduces.
[mod edit]
And in sPvP theres no power progression whatsoever.
and if sPvp was 100% of the gameplay GW2 offered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Seeing as it isn't, here we are.
Unfortunately for you masteries (so far) add no power, as opposed to champion points in ESO, as those ARE pure vertical progression, i dont really know why people mention ESO in relation to horizotntal progresiion as they chose to go vertical from the start (VRs, raising VRs shortly after launch, CPs when VRs....backfired). You see, THATS a major difference. And ANET already said NO new gear tiers will be introduced.
I have to be "politically corretct" it seems and repeat whats already known to general public.
Masteries are NOT something like champions points from ESO.
And if you want to comment on something comment on more detailed post i wrote before.
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
So, GW2 has skills which need to be built? Skills that need to be built is semantics when compared to levels that need to be built, as both systems can be translated into the other quite easily. Both are vertical.
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
Oh thank Innoruuk! Now I get it! So a capped or limited vertical progression is horizontal progression. Oh crap, but what if that cap gets raised?
Sephiroso here dont really know what hes talking about im afraid
Going exotic to ascended is same like going r4 to r5 in EvE.
Originally posted by Bladestrom The 'what is horizontal' and what is vertical debat finished 5 years ago, there's a million posts on it.
Its funny that GW2 is mentioned in "vertical progression" because majority of people dont even go after ascended gear as its irrelevant. Theres no "greater challenges" you need ascended gear (higher stats) for, and frankly with minor stats ascended gear provides it would be impossible to actually tune content to be "only be doable in ascended gear".
There are fractals and agony resist, but funny how noone mentiones THAT. It tells more about posters who comment on GW2 than on anything else
The developers working on gw2 have explicitly defined their philosophy as horizontal Progression as they understand vertical is lazy design. They havE committed to no power increases or new tiers of gear - ever they said. And they have Described masteries as horizontal context based progression. Systems. But ooh no, posters I. His thread know better, gw2 is vertical lol . ths mus make games lik wow vertical +1
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element) talking about the levelling process to max level is moot since its does not represent a significant amount of your time playing a mmorpg where long term progression is intended, the levelling to max level is by definition vertical.
The key factor is this - does your overall progression options look like:
power --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> [expansion] -------------->
or does it look like this:
power ------------------------------------------- capped
new alt skills------------------------------- capped
new skins --------------------------------------- capped
Yes, it does apply to nearly every level-based game because nearly always levels end up providing significant enough vertical progression that the game wouldn't be called lateral.
It's not always true. For example Planetside 1's levels (battle ranks) only made your character more flexible (lateral progression), not more powerful (vertical progression). However those exceptions are very rare because usually level comes with a power increase in games.
Capped growth isn't a factor at all. Vertical progression is about power. Stat increases make you more powerful.
In the fastest leveling MMORPGs it still takes players over a hundred hours to reach max level. That's not an insignificant chunk of time. An hour or two would be insignificant. Longer than that isn't insignificant.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I like my character to be vertical (leveling, skill improvements, perks, etc.) and my items to be horizontal ( lots of different viable items with unique and interesting stats/uses).
you can say that about any level char game in any game, as with level 11,12,13,14... to max level. A max level char in GW2 can play and be competitive any any element of the game (aside from the fractals which is a dedicated vertical element) talking about the levelling process to max level is moot since its does not represent a significant amount of your time playing a mmorpg where long term progression is intended, the levelling to max level is by definition vertical.
The key factor is this - does your overall progression options look like:
power --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> [expansion] -------------->
or does it look like this:
power ------------------------------------------- capped
new alt skills------------------------------- capped
new skins --------------------------------------- capped
Yes, it does apply to nearly every level-based game because nearly always levels end up providing significant enough vertical progression that the game wouldn't be called lateral.
It's not always true. For example Planetside 1's levels (battle ranks) only made your character more flexible (lateral progression), not more powerful (vertical progression). However those exceptions are very rare because usually level comes with a power increase in games.
Capped growth isn't a factor at all. Vertical progression is about power. Stat increases make you more powerful.
In the fastest leveling MMORPGs it still takes players over a hundred hours to reach max level. That's not an insignificant chunk of time. An hour or two would be insignificant. Longer than that isn't insignificant.
in GW2 levels dont grant any significant power due to downscaling, so it doesnt matter if youre level 80, going to lvl35 area you will be lvl35 with lvl35 stats.
It never took over 100 hours to reach 80 in GW2, and today there are options to be 80 in few minutes (no cash shop options)
There hasnt been any content (and wont be in exapnsion) that requires more power than at launch.
Its pretty obvious what is and what isnt vertical progression game.
and power plateaues ARE a significant difference beween vertical and horizontal progression.
if you progress horizontally its not cancelled out because you can progress vertically as well. Every mmo in the genre would be classed as vertical if you included the levelling to the initial max level that you do in the first few months in a games existence. The key factor is the model used for the majority of your time playing a game, i.e if i play a game for 3 years and 10% of that time is vertical progression and 90% is horizontal then i would not classify it as a vertical progression game.
Right, but the term effectively loses all meaning at that point, because basically every game gives you stuff that doesn't increase your character's power. Unlocking a teleport spell is lateral progression. Unlocking new character appearance options is lateral progression. Exploring new areas and having them become scribbled in on your map is lateral progression.
Which is why lateral progression is only used to refer to games which are wholly (or at least overwhelmingly) about lateral progression. There's just no point in talking about the myriad little lateral progression bits that exist in nearly every game.
and thus you look at the core progression mechanics, and in GW2 it is not vertical it is horizontal i.e not power.
Leveling check - vertical
Gear ladder check - vertical
Mastery system(HoT) check - vertical
skills being tied to weapon and not leveling check - horizontal
It is more vertical than it is horizontal dude.
When people discuss vertical and horizontal, they are referring to progression beyond the max level.
An expansion that raises levels and stats, beyond the original cap, is vertical progression, along with the gear that is released. This isn't true with GW2, as far as we know.
I wouldn't consider Masteries vertical at all, since everyone will have access to them at max level (probably before that too).
Ascended gear is the only vertical system at max level, so i agree with you there.
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
So, GW2 has skills which need to be built? Skills that need to be built is semantics when compared to levels that need to be built, as both systems can be translated into the other quite easily. Both are vertical.
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
Oh thank Innoruuk! Now I get it! So a capped or limited vertical progression is horizontal progression. Oh crap, but what if that cap gets raised?
Sephiroso here dont really know what hes talking about im afraid
Going exotic to ascended is same like going r4 to r5 in EvE.
Technically, it's still vertical progression, no matter how minuscule it may seem. Ascended offers higher stats than Exotics, and nobody would dispute that. Then there's infusions, which can only be placed inside Ascended, from what i remember.
That's where it stops though, and they haven't added any vertical progression above that.
Question, take 2 characters. 1 is fresh lvl 80. Another one is in full ascended gear. Both have same skill, which one wins?
Same premise, but throw in masteries, one is fresh lvl 80 who managed to pick up a few masteries on the way to 80, the other maxed them out. Which one wins?
You see now why GW2 isn't a good example of horizontal progression?
So, GW2 has skills which need to be built? Skills that need to be built is semantics when compared to levels that need to be built, as both systems can be translated into the other quite easily. Both are vertical.
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
Oh thank Innoruuk! Now I get it! So a capped or limited vertical progression is horizontal progression. Oh crap, but what if that cap gets raised?
Sephiroso here dont really know what hes talking about im afraid
Going exotic to ascended is same like going r4 to r5 in EvE.
Technically, it's still vertical progression, no matter how minuscule it may seem. Ascended offers higher stats than Exotics, and nobody would dispute that. Then there's infusions, which can only be placed inside Ascended, from what i remember.
That's where it stops though, and they haven't added any vertical progression above that.
Well, techically, differnce between exotic and ascended is well within skill margin so it doesnt matter much (at all)
Masteries (so far) offer no power upgrades.
So both of his claims are false (or what at least he wanted to claim)
And on those false claims he concluded GW2 "isnt good example of horizontal progression"
I know why they introduced ascended, and in the end i dont think that small power upgrade was needed for what they wanted to do (no it was not about vertical progression, it was about making materials across the board matter), so in a way it was a mistake. But its small enough mistake, as i said, i have 15 lvl80 chars and only 1 of them have ascended gear (as few as it can get away with for fractals only, again, funny how noone mentiones that), nor will I get more in the future, as i said, its irrelevant tier, its inconsequential for anything beside agony resist (and even for that...you can play all fractals without any agony resist, in fact thats what majority does)
Comments
Even Minecraft has vertical progression.
Gotta make that Diamond pick axe to mine that Obsidian don't you?
Horizontal progression would be - any pickaxe can mine any material - a diamond pickaxe mines Obsidian faster, and a Gold pick axe mines Red Stone faster.
That is a pretty basic example.
There have been very few examples of horizontal progression in MMOs.
GW1 was the closest, as you could literally start the game at max level and unlock skills and skins after that.
UO had such fast progression there was very little vertical to it compared to say EQ which was mostly vertical.
SWG had vertical progression in unlocking new abilities and access to new gear, which had better "stats" - but your character didn't really change their core stats all too much (if I remember correctly).
Picking a moment in time when one char is at a power cap and the other is not is meaningless, it applies to all games. vertical has no power cap. if you cant understand the concept parallel capped progression curves via a focus on an endless power curve then i cant help with that. Again wether or not you think GW2 is a 'good example' or not is irrelevant.
You want a concrete example, Im playing GW2 now, in the same gear i got a year ago, im very competitive, and lethal against anyone with lesser skill. Ive immediately picked up on the progression i was working on a year ago - weapon skin, ascended gear, pvp xp, gold for materials.
If i walked into WOW i would not be able to play content until I catch up on the vertical power curve (dps) . You must catch up or you cannot play content properly, you then must play x hours per week to maintain that position. This is vertical.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Simply stated ...
Horizontal progression is about the quest of acquiring cosmetic intangibles.
Vertical progression is based on acquiring power.
Horizontal progression involves everyone being on the same power spectrum in regards to combat with the only difference being differing appearance and/or items. Ie., non-stat armor and weapons, hats, mounts, vehicles, bigger and better homes, furniture etc.
Vertical progression involves game play that allows for itemization with progressive and increasing stats that give one player an advantage over another.
GW1 is a good example of a game philosophy based on horizontal progression.
WoW is a good example of a game philosophy based on vertical progression.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Skill wins because difference between exotic and ascended is negligible.
You would know that if you actually played the game.
Masteries dont add power to your character. They unlock additional options (as far as we know so far)
GW2 would be better off with no levels, but in grand scheme of things, in 3 years my level 80 aquired NO power upgrades. OTOH it aquired nifty options in vast majority of game.
THATS horizontal progression. Try doing that in vertical progression and lmk how far do you get with your character at power cap of 3 years ago. Or 5 years ago. Or 10 years ago.
Yes, time plays major factor.
Even in GW1 you had to spend little time leveling, in EvE you need to spend little time getting skills to be effective with 1 type of ship, but power plateau is VERY real, once you reach it thats it.
Just because you're ignoring better gear available doesn't mean everyone else is. And gimping yourself and saying "you're very competitive" does not make it so.
Point blank, given equal skill someone with few mastery points and in noob 80 gear is going to lose to someone with max mastery points and in ascended gear and whatever other higher ladder gear HoT introduces.
[mod edit]
And in sPvP theres no power progression whatsoever.
and if sPvp was 100% of the gameplay GW2 offered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Seeing as it isn't, here we are.
Unfortunately for you masteries (so far) add no power, as opposed to champion points in ESO, as those ARE pure vertical progression, i dont really know why people mention ESO in relation to horizotntal progresiion as they chose to go vertical from the start (VRs, raising VRs shortly after launch, CPs when VRs....backfired). You see, THATS a major difference. And ANET already said NO new gear tiers will be introduced.
I have to be "politically corretct" it seems and repeat whats already known to general public.
Masteries are NOT something like champions points from ESO.
And if you want to comment on something comment on more detailed post i wrote before.
Sephiroso here dont really know what hes talking about im afraid
Going exotic to ascended is same like going r4 to r5 in EvE.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Its funny that GW2 is mentioned in "vertical progression" because majority of people dont even go after ascended gear as its irrelevant. Theres no "greater challenges" you need ascended gear (higher stats) for, and frankly with minor stats ascended gear provides it would be impossible to actually tune content to be "only be doable in ascended gear".
There are fractals and agony resist, but funny how noone mentiones THAT. It tells more about posters who comment on GW2 than on anything else
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Everything since has been horizontal though I'm not sure about mastery lines.
If the new mastery lines give any sort of statistical or skill advantage, that would also be considered vertical progression.
Yes, it does apply to nearly every level-based game because nearly always levels end up providing significant enough vertical progression that the game wouldn't be called lateral.
It's not always true. For example Planetside 1's levels (battle ranks) only made your character more flexible (lateral progression), not more powerful (vertical progression). However those exceptions are very rare because usually level comes with a power increase in games.
Capped growth isn't a factor at all. Vertical progression is about power. Stat increases make you more powerful.
In the fastest leveling MMORPGs it still takes players over a hundred hours to reach max level. That's not an insignificant chunk of time. An hour or two would be insignificant. Longer than that isn't insignificant.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
in GW2 levels dont grant any significant power due to downscaling, so it doesnt matter if youre level 80, going to lvl35 area you will be lvl35 with lvl35 stats.
It never took over 100 hours to reach 80 in GW2, and today there are options to be 80 in few minutes (no cash shop options)
There hasnt been any content (and wont be in exapnsion) that requires more power than at launch.
Its pretty obvious what is and what isnt vertical progression game.
and power plateaues ARE a significant difference beween vertical and horizontal progression.
Every time I see a post these days, there's already 5 pages of nonsensical garbage as relies.
My answer is....
Is the game fun? If yes, the who the hell friggin cares. If not? Then who the hell friggin cares?
People are so quick judge things down to the last micron....give it a rest and play.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
When people discuss vertical and horizontal, they are referring to progression beyond the max level.
An expansion that raises levels and stats, beyond the original cap, is vertical progression, along with the gear that is released. This isn't true with GW2, as far as we know.
I wouldn't consider Masteries vertical at all, since everyone will have access to them at max level (probably before that too).
Ascended gear is the only vertical system at max level, so i agree with you there.
Technically, it's still vertical progression, no matter how minuscule it may seem. Ascended offers higher stats than Exotics, and nobody would dispute that. Then there's infusions, which can only be placed inside Ascended, from what i remember.
That's where it stops though, and they haven't added any vertical progression above that.
Thise 2 philosophies are so different that it can seriously impact fun and gameplay.
So is it relevant now?
Well, techically, differnce between exotic and ascended is well within skill margin so it doesnt matter much (at all)
Masteries (so far) offer no power upgrades.
So both of his claims are false (or what at least he wanted to claim)
And on those false claims he concluded GW2 "isnt good example of horizontal progression"
I know why they introduced ascended, and in the end i dont think that small power upgrade was needed for what they wanted to do (no it was not about vertical progression, it was about making materials across the board matter), so in a way it was a mistake. But its small enough mistake, as i said, i have 15 lvl80 chars and only 1 of them have ascended gear (as few as it can get away with for fractals only, again, funny how noone mentiones that), nor will I get more in the future, as i said, its irrelevant tier, its inconsequential for anything beside agony resist (and even for that...you can play all fractals without any agony resist, in fact thats what majority does)