Horizontal is a subset of vertical, which is the only possible leveling system. The true definition of horizontal, is buying a max level character off eBay. The concept of horizontal is all about avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one.
“Horizontal is about expanding the number of different effects or benefits by finding new utilities(perks and skills) and items(Gear and add ons)” This is called re-rolling a max level character. Going to the talent window and spending all your talent point. Pay some Third-world leveling website to get your character to max for you and every “Vertical” game is now horizontal. Don't fool your self, horizontal is nothing but being too lazy to level your own character. It’s all about avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone. It’s all about using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode.
Play the game for three days then roll over and go to sleep, never to play the game again. That’s what horizontal is all about. If someone gives you kotor and says your character is level 19, just spend your attributes and skill points and equip your gear. Next room is Malak, have at him. You can go back to every planet and fight the mobs all you want. Would you?
It's all about,
avoiding leveling and stepping into level cap on day one
avoiding the frustration of being under powered or under leveled to clear a zone
using a cheat to turn on “EZ” mode
never to play the game again
4. halleluja
and kotor would have worked quite good without levels, theres a nice story progression, levels are quite redundant in kotor.
But i guess giving it a little thought is too much too ask.
It would not have been half as good considering that big part of the games (KOTOR 1 & 2) were about starting out as a nobody and then becoming a jedi master/sith lord.
Yeah you should put more thought into what you say.
Really? So some arbitrary numbers decide if youre nobody or jedi master/sith?
Sorry if i didnt see those arbitrary numbers in movies, i mean luke had to grind thouseands of rats to be able to face emperor. Vader to, all his scenes of camping random monsters were awesome! because you ahve to be right level and farm same bosses over and over again to get right gear first"
Thats why MMO players shouldnt really talk about rpgs.
Both games have strong story without any need for shallow things like levels. OTOH shallow games like Diablo and MMOs rely just on watching arbitrary numbers go up. progress quest is quite nice representation. of your average vertical progression game.
Yup, principle of "just ignore everything and embrace tunnel vision"
The game involves power scaling. That's what vertical progression is. People who deny that truth are the deluded ones, not me.
If you want to post a video of a level 1 character beating the hardest boss in the game, feel free.
If you want to post a video of a fresh account reaching max stat progression without paying, feel free.
Otherwise, you're faced with the inconvenient reality that vertical progression exists in GW2 (which is really only inconvenient if you're insistent that the game lacks vertical progression -- if you have no stance of your own and simply accept the truth of the matter, then the truth isn't inconvenient at all...it's just the truth, so it's what you post about.)
really. if you cannot accept that there are myriad of ways ro skip ALL vertical progression, theres really no point in discussing.
i already asked you to show me vertical progression game where you can get to power plateau in matter of minutes or hours. or days even. or shall we make it a month?
Really? So some arbitrary numbers decide if youre nobody or jedi master/sith?
Sorry if i didnt see those arbitrary numbers in movies, i mean luke had to grind thouseands of rats to be able to face emperor. Vader to, all his scenes of camping random monsters were awesome! because you ahve to be right level and farm same bosses over and over again to get right gear first"
Thats why MMO players shouldnt really talk about rpgs.
Both games have strong story without any need for shallow things like levels. OTOH shallow games like Diablo and MMOs rely just on watching arbitrary numbers go up. progress quest is quite nice representation. of your average vertical progression game.
Progress quest is a "nice representation of your average vertical progression game"? Ok, forget I said anything. You clearly have it all figured out. Proceed with the nonsense!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Really? So some arbitrary numbers decide if youre nobody or jedi master/sith?
Sorry if i didnt see those arbitrary numbers in movies, i mean luke had to grind thouseands of rats to be able to face emperor. Vader to, all his scenes of camping random monsters were awesome! because you ahve to be right level and farm same bosses over and over again to get right gear first"
Thats why MMO players shouldnt really talk about rpgs.
Both games have strong story without any need for shallow things like levels. OTOH shallow games like Diablo and MMOs rely just on watching arbitrary numbers go up. progress quest is quite nice representation. of your average vertical progression game.
Progress quest is a "nice representation of your average vertical progression game"? Ok, forget I said anything. You clearly have it all figured out. Proceed with the nonsense!
Ahhh, i see that progress quest is fresh, since most games rely on that.
Even kotor 1&2 cannot be compared to MMOs since they have definite END. You know, when the credits roll.
Yes, MMOs will have to rethink how they go on from here (if they want to stay relevant genre) or fade to obscurity 8and some people think thats a GOOD thing, unfortunately those are selfish people who dont even consider anything but "i" or "me", and who gives a crap about the genre)
really. if you cannot accept that there are myriad of ways ro skip ALL vertical progression, theres really no point in discussing.
i already asked you to show me vertical progression game where you can get to power plateau in matter of minutes or hours. or days even. or shall we make it a month?
Well you never explained how it was possible (without paying) to skip it on a completely new account. The reality is a new player starts out disadvantaged.
I can't show you a vertical progression game where any new player can reach the power cap in minutes, because such a game would be considered a lateral progression game, like Planetside 1 where it only took a couple hours tops to reach BR6 and get personal shield. (And personal shield was a trivial amount of verticality in the first place, so you were basically on even footing ~10 minutes into VR training after testing through all weapon types.)
Comparisons don't matter anyway. Vertical is not the word "higher". Higher is a relative concept: you compare two things and one is higher. Vertical progression is an absolute concept: if your game involves power scaling of any sort then that's vertical progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Bladestrom @a e you are wrong to think you know better than the gw2 developers. they have said openly that the game is horizontal, You are also making shit up to suit your own arguements yet again. No one said gw2 does not have vertical progression elements 'conveniently'. Straw man. As I said plot ths graph of all ths power lines in a game in you head for the lifetime of gw2 and watch it plateau and lines merge.
You seem incapable of looking at the shape of the progression model beyond individual lines of progresses on a scale. Everything progressss on a scale, it's only when you look at the full picture I.e over the lifetime of a game. That you see the model. a dotard could tell you that all games are vertical up to max level, moot moot moot.
There are only two concepts in this thread, and one of them doesn't progress on a scale.
The two concepts are not complicated to figure out. Vertical progression is power scaling. Lateral progression isn't.
I think you failed to understand just how inconvenient reality is to your argument. Let's step through this:
Power increases are vertical progression.
Flexibility increases are lateral progression.
In GW2 my engineer is level ~15. He needs a power increase (better stats) to be capable of beating level 80 content.
So it should become clear now why the truth is inconvenient to your argument.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
really. if you cannot accept that there are myriad of ways ro skip ALL vertical progression, theres really no point in discussing.
i already asked you to show me vertical progression game where you can get to power plateau in matter of minutes or hours. or days even. or shall we make it a month?
Well you never explained how it was possible (without paying) to skip it on a completely new account. The reality is a new player starts out disadvantaged.
I can't show you a vertical progression game where any new player can reach the power cap in minutes, because such a game would be considered a lateral progression game, like Planetside 1 where it only took a couple hours tops to reach BR6 and get personal shield. (And personal shield was a trivial amount of verticality in the first place, so you were basically on even footing ~10 minutes into VR training after testing through all weapon types.)
Comparisons don't matter anyway. Vertical is not the word "higher". Higher is a relative concept: you compare two things and one is higher. Vertical progression is an absolute concept: if your game involves power scaling of any sort then that's vertical progression.
I did, go to sPvP, WWW, fractals and done IF you dont want to pay. Just because you dont "approve" of the option it doesnt mean its NOT there lol. "Yeah there is a way BUT if we disregard that way because i dont like it and it doesnt fi my argument"....it doesnt work that way.
Yup, thats horizontal, just like GW2, it has trivial (IF you want it to be trivial, thats an OPTION) amount of vertical and whole bunch of upscaling/downscaling throught the game.
If you cannot connect how "vertical" and "higher" are connected then i wont do it for you, as i already said. its pointless to discuss.
1. i still wait an answer to point out where anyone said GW2 doesnt have vertical. point to where someone claimed theres no levels or higher numbers. and its still horizontal game, where that is irrelevant, and you can reach power plateau by skipping all of it.
2. i asked you to show me game based on vertical progression that you can do same thing as in GW2 and be at power plateau in 1 minute. or even month. Tell us all, how do you get to power plateau in WoW in a month on new account/new character
vertical and horizontal are MMO "slang" to differentiate between 2 types of games. I already shown you their apllication in RL/MMOs and possible deviations.
GW2 is a horizontal progression game with irrelevant vertical progression. It has a definite power plateau that can be reached in minutes/hours even on new account. There are significant areas of game that completely remove any vertical progression, and once at power plateau your "power" will ALWAYS be scaled to appropriate power level. If you go to lvl 5 area you will be lvl 5 and so on. Vertical progression IS irrelevant.
Im not interested in abstracts or theory, im interested in RL application of said principles. practice > theory, you dont play absctract/theoretical game.
Originally posted by Bladestrom @a e you are wrong to think you know better than the gw2 developers. they have said openly that the game is horizontal, You are also making shit up to suit your own arguements yet again. No one said gw2 does not have vertical progression elements 'conveniently'. Straw man. As I said plot ths graph of all ths power lines in a game in you head for the lifetime of gw2 and watch it plateau and lines merge.
You seem incapable of looking at the shape of the progression model beyond individual lines of progresses on a scale. Everything progressss on a scale, it's only when you look at the full picture I.e over the lifetime of a game. That you see the model. a dotard could tell you that all games are vertical up to max level, moot moot moot.
There are only two concepts in this thread, and one of them doesn't progress on a scale.
The two concepts are not complicated to figure out. Vertical progression is power scaling. Lateral progression isn't.
I think you failed to understand just how inconvenient reality is to your argument. Let's step through this:
Power increases are vertical progression.
Flexibility increases are lateral progression.
In GW2 my engineer is level ~15. He needs a power increase (better stats) to be capable of beating level 80 content.
So it should become clear now why the truth is inconvenient to your argument.
It's not a strawman. It's a steel wall of logic rooted in the core definitions of what we're discussing. That's why nobody wants to fight it: because dealing with the truth would be devastating to their side of the discussion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I did, go to sPvP, WWW, fractals and done IF you dont want to pay. Just because you dont "approve" of the option it doesnt mean its NOT there lol. "Yeah there is a way BUT if we disregard that way because i dont like it and it doesnt fi my argument"....it doesnt work that way.
Yup, thats horizontal, just like GW2, it has trivial (IF you want it to be trivial, thats an OPTION) amount of vertical and whole bunch of upscaling/downscaling throught the game.
If you cannot connect how "vertical" and "higher" are connected then i wont do it for you, as i already said. its pointless to discuss.
1. i still wait an answer to point out where anyone said GW2 doesnt have vertical. point to where someone claimed theres no levels or higher numbers. and its still horizontal game, where that is irrelevant, and you can reach power plateau by skipping all of it.
2. i asked you to show me game based on vertical progression that you can do same thing as in GW2 and be at power plateau in 1 minute. or even month. Tell us all, how do you get to power plateau in WoW in a month on new account/new character
vertical and horizontal are MMO "slang" to differentiate between 2 types of games. I already shown you their apllication in RL/MMOs and possible deviations.
GW2 is a horizontal progression game with irrelevant vertical progression. It has a definite power plateau that can be reached in minutes/hours even on new account. There are significant areas of game that completely remove any vertical progression, and once at power plateau your "power" will ALWAYS be scaled to appropriate power level. If you go to lvl 5 area you will be lvl 5 and so on. Vertical progression IS irrelevant.
Im not interested in abstracts or theory, im interested in RL application of said principles. practice > theory, you dont play absctract/theoretical game.
From the wiki: "In WvW, characters have their effective level boosted to 80 but do not receive any new abilities or gear (though they may still gain levels and new gear as normal while boosted). Therefore by equalizing their effective level, the disparity in power is somewhat reduced but higher level characters will still be more powerful than lower level characters due to their higher level gear and wider range of Traits and Skills. Any levels gained through experience earned in WvW are kept normally, and it is possible for a player to level up to 80 entirely within WvW."
So unless the wiki is wrong, it's still vertical progression.
I used "higher" deliberately. Higher is comparative. Vertical is not. The distinction between the words is quite clear, yet the arguments being used seem to think that vertical is comparative.
1. If you concede GW2 has vertical progression, the discussion is over.
2. I already provided this example. But again, at the point where vertical progression is actually trivialized, the game is obviously by definition no longer considered to be based on vertical progression, so it's fundamentally an impossible question.
The vertical progression involved in GW2 isn't irrelevant. As the wiki correctly state, it's a noticeable advantage which matters in PVP, as it matters elsewhere.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I did, go to sPvP, WWW, fractals and done IF you dont want to pay. Just because you dont "approve" of the option it doesnt mean its NOT there lol. "Yeah there is a way BUT if we disregard that way because i dont like it and it doesnt fi my argument"....it doesnt work that way.
Yup, thats horizontal, just like GW2, it has trivial (IF you want it to be trivial, thats an OPTION) amount of vertical and whole bunch of upscaling/downscaling throught the game.
If you cannot connect how "vertical" and "higher" are connected then i wont do it for you, as i already said. its pointless to discuss.
1. i still wait an answer to point out where anyone said GW2 doesnt have vertical. point to where someone claimed theres no levels or higher numbers. and its still horizontal game, where that is irrelevant, and you can reach power plateau by skipping all of it.
2. i asked you to show me game based on vertical progression that you can do same thing as in GW2 and be at power plateau in 1 minute. or even month. Tell us all, how do you get to power plateau in WoW in a month on new account/new character
vertical and horizontal are MMO "slang" to differentiate between 2 types of games. I already shown you their apllication in RL/MMOs and possible deviations.
GW2 is a horizontal progression game with irrelevant vertical progression. It has a definite power plateau that can be reached in minutes/hours even on new account. There are significant areas of game that completely remove any vertical progression, and once at power plateau your "power" will ALWAYS be scaled to appropriate power level. If you go to lvl 5 area you will be lvl 5 and so on. Vertical progression IS irrelevant.
Im not interested in abstracts or theory, im interested in RL application of said principles. practice > theory, you dont play absctract/theoretical game.
From the wiki: "In WvW, characters have their effective level boosted to 80 but do not receive any new abilities or gear (though they may still gain levels and new gear as normal while boosted). Therefore by equalizing their effective level, the disparity in power is somewhat reduced but higher level characters will still be more powerful than lower level characters due to their higher level gear and wider range of Traits and Skills. Any levels gained through experience earned in WvW are kept normally, and it is possible for a player to level up to 80 entirely within WvW."
So unless the wiki is wrong, it's still vertical progression.
I used "higher" deliberately. Higher is comparative. Vertical is not. The distinction between the words is quite clear, yet the arguments being used seem to think that vertical is comparative.
1. If you concede GW2 has vertical progression, the discussion is over.
2. I already provided this example. But again, at the point where vertical progression is actually trivialized, the game is obviously by definition no longer considered to be based on vertical progression, so it's fundamentally an impossible question.
The vertical progression involved in GW2 isn't irrelevant. As the wiki correctly state, it's a noticeable advantage which matters in PVP, as it matters elsewhere.
*faints* yes, GW2 has levels and higher numbers.....for like 10th time. Skills and traits are SAME for all lvl1 or lvl80 character. Skills and traits ARE a form of horizontal progression
The vertical progression IS irrelevant
1. it hs vertical. but its irrelevant
2. It can be trivialized minutes/hours after new character/new account is created THATS the point. In fact ways to trivialize that vertical progression are example of horizontal progression itself
3. in sPvP thers NO upscaling/downsacaling, its a flat line
4. they did play a bit with uposcaling/downscaling numbers, they settled for what it is now. But in the end, since its trivialized so easily i guess spending time meddling with it more is not really resource wise....wise
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Malabooga
Noone wants to figth your strawman
It's not a strawman. It's a steel wall of logic rooted in the core definitions of what we're discussing. That's why nobody wants to fight it: because dealing with the truth would be devastating to their side of the discussion.
It is a strawman, since i didnt se anyone claim there are no levels or gear tiers in GW2. And since whole vertical progression can be trivialized so easily.
Originally posted by Bladestrom We don't need to 'concede' that hw2 has vertical progression in it, it's been said to you about a dozen times in this thread lol. You win l eh!
gw2 year 1-10 is horizontal progression, players know it, developers have stated it. I actually think you struggle to visualise patterns so nuff said.
What pattern am I struggling to visualize? You just admitted everything I've said has been true.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
really. if you cannot accept that there are myriad of ways ro skip ALL vertical progression, theres really no point in discussing.
i already asked you to show me vertical progression game where you can get to power plateau in matter of minutes or hours. or days even. or shall we make it a month?
Well you never explained how it was possible (without paying) to skip it on a completely new account. The reality is a new player starts out disadvantaged.
I can't show you a vertical progression game where any new player can reach the power cap in minutes, because such a game would be considered a lateral progression game, like Planetside 1 where it only took a couple hours tops to reach BR6 and get personal shield. (And personal shield was a trivial amount of verticality in the first place, so you were basically on even footing ~10 minutes into VR training after testing through all weapon types.)
Comparisons don't matter anyway. Vertical is not the word "higher". Higher is a relative concept: you compare two things and one is higher. Vertical progression is an absolute concept: if your game involves power scaling of any sort then that's vertical progression.
I did, go to sPvP, WWW, fractals and done IF you dont want to pay. Just because you dont "approve" of the option it doesnt mean its NOT there lol. "Yeah there is a way BUT if we disregard that way because i dont like it and it doesnt fi my argument"....it doesnt work that way.
Yup, thats horizontal, just like GW2, it has trivial (IF you want it to be trivial, thats an OPTION) amount of vertical and whole bunch of upscaling/downscaling throught the game.
If you cannot connect how "vertical" and "higher" are connected then i wont do it for you, as i already said. its pointless to discuss.
1. i still wait an answer to point out where anyone said GW2 doesnt have vertical. point to where someone claimed theres no levels or higher numbers. and its still horizontal game, where that is irrelevant, and you can reach power plateau by skipping all of it.
2. i asked you to show me game based on vertical progression that you can do same thing as in GW2 and be at power plateau in 1 minute. or even month. Tell us all, how do you get to power plateau in WoW in a month on new account/new character
vertical and horizontal are MMO "slang" to differentiate between 2 types of games. I already shown you their apllication in RL/MMOs and possible deviations.
GW2 is a horizontal progression game with irrelevant vertical progression. It has a definite power plateau that can be reached in minutes/hours even on new account. There are significant areas of game that completely remove any vertical progression, and once at power plateau your "power" will ALWAYS be scaled to appropriate power level. If you go to lvl 5 area you will be lvl 5 and so on. Vertical progression IS irrelevant.
Im not interested in abstracts or theory, im interested in RL application of said principles. practice > theory, you dont play absctract/theoretical game.
The game was SWG pre-cu/nge, with a macro a new player could reach level cap (spend all points ) in a week or less. This is the main reason why fans love it. One elite profession like TKA could be mastered in less than 24 hours if the player returned promptly.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
PVE is typically most fun with vertical progression. You struggle with one challenge, then progress a little and it's easier, and now you're onto new challenges.
PVP is typically fun with zero vertical progression (all lateral progression.) Any vertical progression directly works against the point of a PVP game (skill-based competition.)
This is true but it is so limited that it makes (IMO) vertical progression boring and in some cases useless after you hit that cap where things become easier. Until developers add new challenging content, the sense of progression is already dead since there is no more challenge for the time being. And once that new challenge is added to the game, the cycle repeats.
I think vertical progression is designed for short term gaming. Hit cap, take a break until there is a new cap, hit cap, and repeat.
Horizontal progression can get broader than that.
Do i like both? yupp, but i prefer when the game focuses on horizontal progression with a little big of verticality to make me feel that my character is growing significantly in power. But its difficult to get that feeling without the game becoming a cakewalk as a result of it.
This is true but it is so limited that it makes (IMO) vertical progression boring and in some cases useless after you hit that cap where things become easier. Until developers add new challenging content, the sense of progression is already dead since there is no more challenge for the time being. And once that new challenge is added to the game, the cycle repeats.
I think vertical progression is designed for short term gaming. Hit cap, take a break until there is a new cap, hit cap, and repeat.
Horizontal progression can get broader than that.
Do i like both? yupp, but i prefer when the game focuses on horizontal progression with a little big of verticality to make me feel that my character is growing significantly in power. But its difficult to get that feeling without the game becoming a cakewalk as a result of it.
"So limited" is an exaggeration. Given that basically zero RPGs lack vertical progression, anyone in an RPG forum who isn't there simply to bash the genre clearly has an interest in vertical progression. It's one of the core pillars of the genre! The casual-friendly nature of vertical progression is a significant part of the genre's success!
RPGs are mostly content-driven games, which means that yes there is a time limit to how long they'll remain interesting. This doesn't stop them from being quite successful and popular though. Nor has any lateral-heavy RPG really shown that that method is better at keeping players interested. GW2 is hanging on and maybe profitable, but hasn't seemed to be unusually successful.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The game was SWG pre-cu/nge, with a macro a new player could reach level cap (spend all points ) in a week or less. This is the main reason why fans love it. One elite profession like TKA could be mastered in less than 24 hours if the player returned promptly.
If fans love a game because they can use a macro to avoid playing the game, it's possible those fans don't actually love the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is true but it is so limited that it makes (IMO) vertical progression boring and in some cases useless after you hit that cap where things become easier. Until developers add new challenging content, the sense of progression is already dead since there is no more challenge for the time being. And once that new challenge is added to the game, the cycle repeats.
I think vertical progression is designed for short term gaming. Hit cap, take a break until there is a new cap, hit cap, and repeat.
Horizontal progression can get broader than that.
Do i like both? yupp, but i prefer when the game focuses on horizontal progression with a little big of verticality to make me feel that my character is growing significantly in power. But its difficult to get that feeling without the game becoming a cakewalk as a result of it.
"So limited" is an exaggeration. Given that basically zero RPGs lack vertical progression, anyone in an RPG forum who isn't there simply to bash the genre clearly has an interest in vertical progression. It's one of the core pillars of the genre! The casual-friendly nature of vertical progression is a significant part of the genre's success!
RPGs are mostly content-driven games, which means that yes there is a time limit to how long they'll remain interesting. This doesn't stop them from being quite successful and popular though. Nor has any lateral-heavy RPG really shown that that method is better at keeping players interested. GW2 is hanging on and maybe profitable, but hasn't seemed to be unusually successful.
Wut?
if anything is casual friendly its horizontal, vertical is anti casual friendly.
vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPG, it was just a means in lack of better one, yup, some games have turned it into a goal, but those are not RPGs.
And there you have your claim where all falls apart. RPG is content driven, but where does it states its DEVELOPER content driven. OTOH VERTICAL PROGRESSION is developer content driven. You cannot progress further until developers feed you next instalment.
OTOH, players have been content to each other in MMOs just fine. And how is that best achieved? horizontal
GW2 is most successful MMO in the west since WoW. The only studio that didnt have to fire lot of their staff (in fact the grew since launch) and change business model because of failure.
if anything is casual friendly its horizontal, vertical is anti casual friendly.
vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPG, it was just a means in lack of better one, yup, some games have turned it into a goal, but those are not RPGs.
And there you have your claim where all falls apart. RPG is content driven, but where does it states its DEVELOPER content driven. OTOH VERTICAL PROGRESSION is developer content driven. You cannot progress further until developers feed you next instalment.
OTOH, players have been content to each other in MMOs just fine. And how is that best achieved? horizontal
GW2 is most successful MMO in the west since WoW. The only studio that didnt have to fire lot of their staff (in fact the grew since launch) and change business model because of failure.
Let's say a fight is too hard for you:
In horizontal progression you willnever beat that fight without becoming more skilled.
In vertical progression, you can simply level up or get better gear. More skill works too, but isn't required. Hence it's a more casual-friendly system.
To claim vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPGs, when it's been part of virtually every RPG ever created, is laughably wrong.
By extension, what you've said about vertical progression being developer content implies that RPGs are developer content driven, since virtually every RPG ever created has been about vertical progression.
Players are content to each other as well, but this is not completely reliant on horizontal progression. It's only that you don't want excessive verticality (to the point where players have no incentive to group up because my character is already twice as powerful as yours, for example.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If the fight is too difficult In horizontal you change tactics, Change role, change armor, change spells. In vertical you get more gear and repeat the fight over and over, 20,50,60,500 times until everything is burnt into your muscles. Or actually until the fight gets nerfed.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
Really? So some arbitrary numbers decide if youre nobody or jedi master/sith?
Sorry if i didnt see those arbitrary numbers in movies, i mean luke had to grind thouseands of rats to be able to face emperor. Vader to, all his scenes of camping random monsters were awesome! because you ahve to be right level and farm same bosses over and over again to get right gear first"
Thats why MMO players shouldnt really talk about rpgs.
Both games have strong story without any need for shallow things like levels. OTOH shallow games like Diablo and MMOs rely just on watching arbitrary numbers go up. progress quest is quite nice representation. of your average vertical progression game.
really. if you cannot accept that there are myriad of ways ro skip ALL vertical progression, theres really no point in discussing.
i already asked you to show me vertical progression game where you can get to power plateau in matter of minutes or hours. or days even. or shall we make it a month?
Progress quest is a "nice representation of your average vertical progression game"? Ok, forget I said anything. You clearly have it all figured out. Proceed with the nonsense!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ahhh, i see that progress quest is fresh, since most games rely on that.
Even kotor 1&2 cannot be compared to MMOs since they have definite END. You know, when the credits roll.
Yes, MMOs will have to rethink how they go on from here (if they want to stay relevant genre) or fade to obscurity 8and some people think thats a GOOD thing, unfortunately those are selfish people who dont even consider anything but "i" or "me", and who gives a crap about the genre)
Well you never explained how it was possible (without paying) to skip it on a completely new account. The reality is a new player starts out disadvantaged.
I can't show you a vertical progression game where any new player can reach the power cap in minutes, because such a game would be considered a lateral progression game, like Planetside 1 where it only took a couple hours tops to reach BR6 and get personal shield. (And personal shield was a trivial amount of verticality in the first place, so you were basically on even footing ~10 minutes into VR training after testing through all weapon types.)
Comparisons don't matter anyway. Vertical is not the word "higher". Higher is a relative concept: you compare two things and one is higher. Vertical progression is an absolute concept: if your game involves power scaling of any sort then that's vertical progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are only two concepts in this thread, and one of them doesn't progress on a scale.
The two concepts are not complicated to figure out. Vertical progression is power scaling. Lateral progression isn't.
I think you failed to understand just how inconvenient reality is to your argument. Let's step through this:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I did, go to sPvP, WWW, fractals and done IF you dont want to pay. Just because you dont "approve" of the option it doesnt mean its NOT there lol. "Yeah there is a way BUT if we disregard that way because i dont like it and it doesnt fi my argument"....it doesnt work that way.
Yup, thats horizontal, just like GW2, it has trivial (IF you want it to be trivial, thats an OPTION) amount of vertical and whole bunch of upscaling/downscaling throught the game.
If you cannot connect how "vertical" and "higher" are connected then i wont do it for you, as i already said. its pointless to discuss.
1. i still wait an answer to point out where anyone said GW2 doesnt have vertical. point to where someone claimed theres no levels or higher numbers. and its still horizontal game, where that is irrelevant, and you can reach power plateau by skipping all of it.
2. i asked you to show me game based on vertical progression that you can do same thing as in GW2 and be at power plateau in 1 minute. or even month. Tell us all, how do you get to power plateau in WoW in a month on new account/new character
vertical and horizontal are MMO "slang" to differentiate between 2 types of games. I already shown you their apllication in RL/MMOs and possible deviations.
GW2 is a horizontal progression game with irrelevant vertical progression. It has a definite power plateau that can be reached in minutes/hours even on new account. There are significant areas of game that completely remove any vertical progression, and once at power plateau your "power" will ALWAYS be scaled to appropriate power level. If you go to lvl 5 area you will be lvl 5 and so on. Vertical progression IS irrelevant.
Im not interested in abstracts or theory, im interested in RL application of said principles. practice > theory, you dont play absctract/theoretical game.
Noone wants to figth your strawman
It's not a strawman. It's a steel wall of logic rooted in the core definitions of what we're discussing. That's why nobody wants to fight it: because dealing with the truth would be devastating to their side of the discussion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
From the wiki: "In WvW, characters have their effective level boosted to 80 but do not receive any new abilities or gear (though they may still gain levels and new gear as normal while boosted). Therefore by equalizing their effective level, the disparity in power is somewhat reduced but higher level characters will still be more powerful than lower level characters due to their higher level gear and wider range of Traits and Skills. Any levels gained through experience earned in WvW are kept normally, and it is possible for a player to level up to 80 entirely within WvW."
So unless the wiki is wrong, it's still vertical progression.
I used "higher" deliberately. Higher is comparative. Vertical is not. The distinction between the words is quite clear, yet the arguments being used seem to think that vertical is comparative.
1. If you concede GW2 has vertical progression, the discussion is over.
2. I already provided this example. But again, at the point where vertical progression is actually trivialized, the game is obviously by definition no longer considered to be based on vertical progression, so it's fundamentally an impossible question.
The vertical progression involved in GW2 isn't irrelevant. As the wiki correctly state, it's a noticeable advantage which matters in PVP, as it matters elsewhere.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
gw2 year 1-10 is horizontal progression, players know it, developers have stated it. I actually think you struggle to visualise patterns so nuff said.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
*faints* yes, GW2 has levels and higher numbers.....for like 10th time. Skills and traits are SAME for all lvl1 or lvl80 character. Skills and traits ARE a form of horizontal progression
The vertical progression IS irrelevant
1. it hs vertical. but its irrelevant
2. It can be trivialized minutes/hours after new character/new account is created THATS the point. In fact ways to trivialize that vertical progression are example of horizontal progression itself
3. in sPvP thers NO upscaling/downsacaling, its a flat line
4. they did play a bit with uposcaling/downscaling numbers, they settled for what it is now. But in the end, since its trivialized so easily i guess spending time meddling with it more is not really resource wise....wise
It is a strawman, since i didnt se anyone claim there are no levels or gear tiers in GW2. And since whole vertical progression can be trivialized so easily.
What pattern am I struggling to visualize? You just admitted everything I've said has been true.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The game was SWG pre-cu/nge, with a macro a new player could reach level cap (spend all points ) in a week or less. This is the main reason why fans love it. One elite profession like TKA could be mastered in less than 24 hours if the player returned promptly.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
This is true but it is so limited that it makes (IMO) vertical progression boring and in some cases useless after you hit that cap where things become easier. Until developers add new challenging content, the sense of progression is already dead since there is no more challenge for the time being. And once that new challenge is added to the game, the cycle repeats.
I think vertical progression is designed for short term gaming. Hit cap, take a break until there is a new cap, hit cap, and repeat.
Horizontal progression can get broader than that.
Do i like both? yupp, but i prefer when the game focuses on horizontal progression with a little big of verticality to make me feel that my character is growing significantly in power. But its difficult to get that feeling without the game becoming a cakewalk as a result of it.
"So limited" is an exaggeration. Given that basically zero RPGs lack vertical progression, anyone in an RPG forum who isn't there simply to bash the genre clearly has an interest in vertical progression. It's one of the core pillars of the genre! The casual-friendly nature of vertical progression is a significant part of the genre's success!
RPGs are mostly content-driven games, which means that yes there is a time limit to how long they'll remain interesting. This doesn't stop them from being quite successful and popular though. Nor has any lateral-heavy RPG really shown that that method is better at keeping players interested. GW2 is hanging on and maybe profitable, but hasn't seemed to be unusually successful.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Either one is fine for me. As long as the game is enjoyable in other aspects.
I'm actually surprised by the results though.
Vertical - 28.0%
Horizontal - 72.0%
If fans love a game because they can use a macro to avoid playing the game, it's possible those fans don't actually love the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wut?
if anything is casual friendly its horizontal, vertical is anti casual friendly.
vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPG, it was just a means in lack of better one, yup, some games have turned it into a goal, but those are not RPGs.
And there you have your claim where all falls apart. RPG is content driven, but where does it states its DEVELOPER content driven. OTOH VERTICAL PROGRESSION is developer content driven. You cannot progress further until developers feed you next instalment.
OTOH, players have been content to each other in MMOs just fine. And how is that best achieved? horizontal
GW2 is most successful MMO in the west since WoW. The only studio that didnt have to fire lot of their staff (in fact the grew since launch) and change business model because of failure.
Let's say a fight is too hard for you:
To claim vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPGs, when it's been part of virtually every RPG ever created, is laughably wrong.
By extension, what you've said about vertical progression being developer content implies that RPGs are developer content driven, since virtually every RPG ever created has been about vertical progression.
Players are content to each other as well, but this is not completely reliant on horizontal progression. It's only that you don't want excessive verticality (to the point where players have no incentive to group up because my character is already twice as powerful as yours, for example.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D