if anything is casual friendly its horizontal, vertical is anti casual friendly.
vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPG, it was just a means in lack of better one, yup, some games have turned it into a goal, but those are not RPGs.
And there you have your claim where all falls apart. RPG is content driven, but where does it states its DEVELOPER content driven. OTOH VERTICAL PROGRESSION is developer content driven. You cannot progress further until developers feed you next instalment.
OTOH, players have been content to each other in MMOs just fine. And how is that best achieved? horizontal
GW2 is most successful MMO in the west since WoW. The only studio that didnt have to fire lot of their staff (in fact the grew since launch) and change business model because of failure.
Let's say a fight is too hard for you:
In horizontal progression you willnever beat that fight without becoming more skilled.
In vertical progression, you can simply level up or get better gear. More skill works too, but isn't required. Hence it's a more casual-friendly system.
To claim vertical progression has never been a pillar of RPGs, when it's been part of virtually every RPG ever created, is laughably wrong.
By extension, what you've said about vertical progression being developer content implies that RPGs are developer content driven, since virtually every RPG ever created has been about vertical progression.
Players are content to each other as well, but this is not completely reliant on horizontal progression. It's only that you don't want excessive verticality (to the point where players have no incentive to group up because my character is already twice as powerful as yours, for example.)
In horizontal you have WHOLE game to choose from, so it is wide variety of difficulty and if you happen to want to do THAT fight you will have to get skilled enough.
In vertical, since you actually get gear just from THAT fight its hard to get gear from a fight you cant beat. Its also a matter of grind slog to actually get to that fight. Not to mention that you only have that fight.
This is where you dont understand that RPG is player driven, vertical progression is developer driven. And i said BEST achieved, not ONLY achieved.
Its not a pillar, its means. It was "upgraded" to a pillar in MMOs (and in some single player games) BECAUSE there was/is nothing else. MMOs are hack&slash games. they are not RPGs. There were some good shots, but EQ/WoW made sure we dont get RPG along MMO.
MMOs have naturally attracted only people who like vertical progression, since they most of them didnt offer anything else. Just look at other genres which are pretty much all horizontal progression booming, while MMOs are struggling with vertical progression. Even MMOs are constantly trivializing vertical progression - WoW even has lvl90 thingy that every player who preordered expansion got and its available in cash shop. So yeah, vertical progression is on the way out, too many inherent flaws that cant really be corrected.
because that lvl90 thingy doesnt trivialize JUST progression. It trivializes 90% of the game.
In horizontal you have WHOLE game to choose from, so it is wide variety of difficulty and if you happen to want to do THAT fight you will have to get skilled enough.
In vertical, since you actually get gear just from THAT fight its hard to get gear from a fight you cant beat. Its also a matter of grind slog to actually get to that fight. Not to mention that you only have that fight.
This is where you dont understand that RPG is player driven, vertical progression is developer driven. And i said BEST achieved, not ONLY achieved.
Its not a pillar, its means. It was "upgraded" to a pillar in MMOs (and in some single player games) BECAUSE there was/is nothing else. MMOs are hack&slash games. they are not RPGs. There were some good shots, but EQ/WoW made sure we dont get RPG along MMO.
MMOs have naturally attracted only people who like vertical progression, since they most of them didnt offer anything else. Just look at other genres which are pretty much all horizontal progression booming, while MMOs are struggling with vertical progression. Even MMOs are constantly trivializing vertical progression - WoW even has lvl90 thingy that every player who preordered expansion got and its available in cash shop. So yeah, vertical progression is on the way out, too many inherent flaws that cant really be corrected.
because that lvl90 thingy doesnt trivialize JUST progression. It trivializes 90% of the game.
The fact remains that being able to beat fights in ways that don't involve skill makes a game more casual than simply being told "well just don't fight that fight then".
Vertical progression is a pillar of RPGs. It's tiresome that we have to do this, but you need to understand the sheer magnitude of how wrong you are:
Ultima series (1981), vertical progression
Rogue (1980), vertical progression
Wizardry series (1981), vertical progression
Bard's Tale series (1985), vertical progression
Final Fantasy series (1987), vertical progression
Might & Magic series (1987), vertical progression
Phantasy Star series (1987), vertical progression
Dragon Quest series (1989), vertical progression
Ys series (1989), vertical progression
Gold Box AD&D games (1988), vertical progression
Eye of the Beholder series (1991), vertical progression
Shining series and the entire tactical RPGs subgenre (1991)
Breath of Fire series (1993), vertical progression
Earthbound (1994), vertical progression
Elder Scrolls series (1994), vertical progression
Shadowrun (1994), vertical progression
Fallout series (1997), vertical progression
System Shock 2 (1999), vertical progression
....etc
So throughout the entire history of RPGs, from the very start, vertical progression has been a core pillar of RPGs. It didn't start with MMORPGs; not by a long shot.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So throughout the entire history of RPGs, from the very start, vertical progression has been a core pillar of RPGs. It didn't start with MMORPGs; not by a long shot.
Not just a core pillar, but the defining mechanic of the RPG for as long as I can recall, and I played almost all of those games on Axe's list over the years.
Originally posted by Boneserino
IMO horizontal progression = no progression.
Sure you can go anywhere with horizontal.
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
There were horizontal progression titles back in the early days, they were called Adventure games, and the characters went through and explored the story, and interacted with the environment, but they did not progress in skills or levels at all. Pretty boring to me and probably why that genre has basically all but vanished, people prefer vertical progression, at least in the RPG genre.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
Player skill/experience is often a big part of horizontal progression. Sometimes its just specialized or situational skills that allow you to do something you couldn't do before but you're not more powerful. For example you get fire resistance cape to defeat fire dragon. This allows you defeat the fire dragon where you would melt before. But you're not suddenly way more powerful with numbers or in other situations that don't revolve around fire. You could just have a grappling hook that unlocks parts of the game.
Vertical progression and quest hubs allows the developers to ensure the players see all their content and control the content. Players are also conditioned to it.
So throughout the entire history of RPGs, from the very start, vertical progression has been a core pillar of RPGs. It didn't start with MMORPGs; not by a long shot.
Not just a core pillar, but the defining mechanic of the RPG for as long as I can recall, and I played almost all of those games on Axe's list over the years.
Originally posted by Boneserino
IMO horizontal progression = no progression.
Sure you can go anywhere with horizontal.
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
There were horizontal progression titles back in the early days, they were called Adventure games, and the characters went through and explored the story, and interacted with the environment, but they did not progress in skills or levels at all. Pretty boring to me and probably why that genre has basically all but vanished, people prefer vertical progression, at least in the RPG genre.
Zork, Day of the Tentacle, Monkey Island... Were those among the boring? To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that there's anything wrong with not liking those games, just curious if you played those and if they fall into the Boring RPG category for you.
As for Axe's list, it's kind of interesting that it starts with the Ultima series. The first Ultima that comes to mind is Ultima 2, and that was entirely vertical progression, with your abilities and choices expanding as you found new items. Levels meant nothing, and attribute gain was a gambling reward. I forget how progression was in the other early Ultimas.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
Player skill/experience is often a big part of horizontal progression. Sometimes its just specialized or situational skills that allow you to do something you couldn't do before but you're not more powerful. For example you get fire resistance cape to defeat fire dragon. This allows you defeat the fire dragon where you would melt before. But you're not suddenly way more powerful with numbers or in other situations that don't revolve around fire. You could just have a grappling hook that unlocks parts of the game.
Vertical progression and quest hubs allows the developers to ensure the players see all their content and control the content. Players are also conditioned to it.
You're talking about linear and scripted game game design, both of which can be independent of vertical progression and are another topic entirely.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
Still a little unclear what you are getting at in your last paragraph. I take this horizontal progression debate to mean an MMO where the entire world is open to you because you are not blocked off because of a lack of skill progression or level.
In other words you have an axe. That axe should be sufficient to keep you alive anywhere in the world with caution used. You won't run into something that is impossible to kill or avoid. You also can't change that axe into the Mithril Axe Of Destruction +5 nor can you raise your skill with that axe to Mythic level. It is just you and your axe.
But if you add vertical progression to that weapon or the axe skill, then you have done away with horizontal. You can't say a game has both and still call it horizontal. Not IMO.
You can look at MMO's as a chute or a ladder. I prefer to think of them as ladders. Cattle can't climb ladders.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
well, then try doing a "pro" raid in WoW and concider leaving that "lfr" tool once in a while.
player skill makes the differene between a HC blackhand kill (to name an example) or a whipe.
the diffrerence between 60k dmg or 100k.
seriously, if you don't know how to play your character in WoW, you might be able to do the basic raids, but end raid would require a team FULL of people who understood their chars to carry you :P
(not insulting "you" here, just naming "you" as another example)
but of cors, WoW has a VERRY HEAVY vertical progression, not gonna argue on that one. just saying there is horizontal too :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The discussion will go nowhere fast if you cannot abstract down to the root characteristics of horizontal and vertical, and to date the key characteristic that defines vertical is stat inflation. Focus on this v horizontal and thing become clear.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
well, then try doing a "pro" raid in WoW and concider leaving that "lfr" tool once in a while.
player skill makes the differene between a HC blackhand kill (to name an example) or a whipe.
the diffrerence between 60k dmg or 100k.
seriously, if you don't know how to play your character in WoW, you might be able to do the basic raids, but end raid would require a team FULL of people who understood their chars to carry you :P
(not insulting "you" here, just naming "you" as another example)
but of cors, WoW has a VERRY HEAVY vertical progression, not gonna argue on that one. just saying there is horizontal too :P
I only used WOW as an example because most here have played it, and I specifically stated "predominantly vertical" just to avoid WOW fans from going into a frenzy over some perceived slight. If "very heavy" would have worked better, then I apologize for my poor choice of words.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So throughout the entire history of RPGs, from the very start, vertical progression has been a core pillar of RPGs. It didn't start with MMORPGs; not by a long shot.
Not just a core pillar, but the defining mechanic of the RPG for as long as I can recall, and I played almost all of those games on Axe's list over the years.
Originally posted by Boneserino
IMO horizontal progression = no progression.
Sure you can go anywhere with horizontal.
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
There were horizontal progression titles back in the early days, they were called Adventure games, and the characters went through and explored the story, and interacted with the environment, but they did not progress in skills or levels at all. Pretty boring to me and probably why that genre has basically all but vanished, people prefer vertical progression, at least in the RPG genre.
Zork, Day of the Tentacle, Monkey Island... Were those among the boring? To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that there's anything wrong with not liking those games, just curious if you played those and if they fall into the Boring RPG category for you.
As for Axe's list, it's kind of interesting that it starts with the Ultima series. The first Ultima that comes to mind is Ultima 2, and that was entirely vertical progression, with your abilities and choices expanding as you found new items. Levels meant nothing, and attribute gain was a gambling reward. I forget how progression was in the other early Ultimas.
Interestingly enough, yes, I found all 3 of those titles boring, and while I did enjoy some early graphical adventures such as Kings Quest and Leisure suit Larry, once I picked up a copy of Bards Tale 1 (and another title I think was called Star Quest or something like that) I was hooked on progression oriented RPG's and never looked back
As for the Ultima series, I was never a big fan of the early ones, I recall playing 6, 7 and 8 maybe. I enjoyed Might and Magic, Wizardry and some others much more.
I really enjoyed Ultima when the underground series started, not so much before then.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
Still a little unclear what you are getting at in your last paragraph. I take this horizontal progression debate to mean an MMO where the entire world is open to you because you are not blocked off because of a lack of skill progression or level.
In other words you have an axe. That axe should be sufficient to keep you alive anywhere in the world with caution used. You won't run into something that is impossible to kill or avoid. You also can't change that axe into the Mithril Axe Of Destruction +5 nor can you raise your skill with that axe to Mythic level. It is just you and your axe.
But if you add vertical progression to that weapon or the axe skill, then you have done away with horizontal. You can't say a game has both and still call it horizontal. Not IMO.
You can look at MMO's as a chute or a ladder. I prefer to think of them as ladders. Cattle can't climb ladders.
Yes, levelling up the axe or your axe skill is vertical progression. That doesn't change how the axe can be used or where it can be used. The skill to chop wood, ability to hack through locked doors, proficiency at reducing the axe to base materials, or any other mechanics of 'axe' or its properties still exists, and those are part of a broader set of mechanics that support the game's horizontal progression.
The presence of one progression system doesn't negate the other. It actually gives the other more depth. Keen said it rather well a while back:
"I truly believe a game relying solely on horizontal progression is destined to lack depth and become boring. At the same time, if vertical progression is emphasized at the expense of horizontal, then an equally boring game about nothing more than chasing the next tier with absolutely zero depth will be the result." - Keen (link)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Look at any element in isolation with a scale involved and you can call it vertical, it's a pointless observation. You need to loon at the whole picture. is you character defined by a group of scales that go on forever, or is your character defined by many scaling properties that widen over time?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
This is like doing a poll on whether Coke or Pepsi tastes better...
It seems more of a discussion of how they differ, not which is better, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In horizontal you have WHOLE game to choose from, so it is wide variety of difficulty and if you happen to want to do THAT fight you will have to get skilled enough.
In vertical, since you actually get gear just from THAT fight its hard to get gear from a fight you cant beat. Its also a matter of grind slog to actually get to that fight. Not to mention that you only have that fight.
This is where you dont understand that RPG is player driven, vertical progression is developer driven. And i said BEST achieved, not ONLY achieved.
Its not a pillar, its means. It was "upgraded" to a pillar in MMOs (and in some single player games) BECAUSE there was/is nothing else. MMOs are hack&slash games. they are not RPGs. There were some good shots, but EQ/WoW made sure we dont get RPG along MMO.
MMOs have naturally attracted only people who like vertical progression, since they most of them didnt offer anything else. Just look at other genres which are pretty much all horizontal progression booming, while MMOs are struggling with vertical progression. Even MMOs are constantly trivializing vertical progression - WoW even has lvl90 thingy that every player who preordered expansion got and its available in cash shop. So yeah, vertical progression is on the way out, too many inherent flaws that cant really be corrected.
because that lvl90 thingy doesnt trivialize JUST progression. It trivializes 90% of the game.
The fact remains that being able to beat fights in ways that don't involve skill makes a game more casual than simply being told "well just don't fight that fight then".
Vertical progression is a pillar of RPGs. It's tiresome that we have to do this, but you need to understand the sheer magnitude of how wrong you are:
Ultima series (1981), vertical progression
Rogue (1980), vertical progression
Wizardry series (1981), vertical progression
Bard's Tale series (1985), vertical progression
Final Fantasy series (1987), vertical progression
Might & Magic series (1987), vertical progression
Phantasy Star series (1987), vertical progression
Dragon Quest series (1989), vertical progression
Ys series (1989), vertical progression
Gold Box AD&D games (1988), vertical progression
Eye of the Beholder series (1991), vertical progression
Shining series and the entire tactical RPGs subgenre (1991)
Breath of Fire series (1993), vertical progression
Earthbound (1994), vertical progression
Elder Scrolls series (1994), vertical progression
Shadowrun (1994), vertical progression
Fallout series (1997), vertical progression
System Shock 2 (1999), vertical progression
....etc
So throughout the entire history of RPGs, from the very start, vertical progression has been a core pillar of RPGs. It didn't start with MMORPGs; not by a long shot.
Actually no, how many people do old stuff in WoW?
Its not a pillar its a tool. Its tiresome that we have to do this, RPG can function flawlessly without any vertical progression.
NONE of those games had endless vertical progression, and they had VERY definite end and each new instalmnet started from lvl1. So is that what you propose? that with each new expansion/content patch everyone reverts to lvl1 and start over?
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
Still a little unclear what you are getting at in your last paragraph. I take this horizontal progression debate to mean an MMO where the entire world is open to you because you are not blocked off because of a lack of skill progression or level.
In other words you have an axe. That axe should be sufficient to keep you alive anywhere in the world with caution used. You won't run into something that is impossible to kill or avoid. You also can't change that axe into the Mithril Axe Of Destruction +5 nor can you raise your skill with that axe to Mythic level. It is just you and your axe.
But if you add vertical progression to that weapon or the axe skill, then you have done away with horizontal. You can't say a game has both and still call it horizontal. Not IMO.
You can look at MMO's as a chute or a ladder. I prefer to think of them as ladders. Cattle can't climb ladders.
Yes, levelling up the axe or your axe skill is vertical progression. That doesn't change how the axe can be used or where it can be used. The skill to chop wood, ability to hack through locked doors, proficiency at reducing the axe to base materials, or any other mechanics of 'axe' or its properties still exists, and those are part of a broader set of mechanics that support the game's horizontal progression.
The presence of one progression system doesn't negate the other. It actually gives the other more depth. Keen said it rather well a while back:
"I truly believe a game relying solely on horizontal progression is destined to lack depth and become boring. At the same time, if vertical progression is emphasized at the expense of horizontal, then an equally boring game about nothing more than chasing the next tier with absolutely zero depth will be the result." - Keen (link)
I even game mathematical representation of that.
When something is so dominant, you can just call it that.
And vertical progression has so many glaring issues, you dont have to look past WoW and all things they had to do over the years to soften those issues peaking at offering insta lvl90 thingy and scaling down all the numbers.
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
snip
Yes, levelling up the axe or your axe skill is vertical progression. That doesn't change how the axe can be used or where it can be used. The skill to chop wood, ability to hack through locked doors, proficiency at reducing the axe to base materials, or any other mechanics of 'axe' or its properties still exists, and those are part of a broader set of mechanics that support the game's horizontal progression.
The presence of one progression system doesn't negate the other. It actually gives the other more depth. Keen said it rather well a while back:
"I truly believe a game relying solely on horizontal progression is destined to lack depth and become boring. At the same time, if vertical progression is emphasized at the expense of horizontal, then an equally boring game about nothing more than chasing the next tier with absolutely zero depth will be the result." - Keen (link)
Yes I can certainly agree with that.
I think by making a game more horizontal, you are simply slowing down the wheel and adding more exploration and RP into the activities mix. Something sorely missing from most of today's MMO's, IMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Its not a pillar its a tool. Its tiresome that we have to do this, RPG can function flawlessly without any vertical progression.
NONE of those games had endless vertical progression, and they had VERY definite end and each new instalmnet started from lvl1. So is that what you propose? that with each new expansion/content patch everyone reverts to lvl1 and start over?
People do old stuff in WOW all the time in relation to how vertical progression makes things casual:
Joe's guild is 4/8 progression of some raid.
They spent all of last month wiping to the 5th boss.
Each week their raid got additional gear from the prior 4 bosses.
This month Joe's guild beat the boss, not because their group played any differently but because their gear finally allowed them to coast through the fight.
The early 4 bosses are effectively old content.
Older content than that still exists, and would be easier than ever if the guild decided to go back and do it (or if individuals went back to solo it). Which while rare is still an example of how vertical progression makes things more casual than lateral progression.
Who cares if the vertical progression was endless? It was vertical progression. It was a core pillar of each game.
I'm not proposing anything. I'm trying to educate you on how RPGs work. The core pillars of RPGs are vertical progression, story, and combat*. Each time WOW releases an xpack they add a boatload of content based on those core pillars. That's why each xpack results in a huge burst of players again. And the specific form vertical progression takes is to provide gear right out of the gate which is on par with mid-tier raiding, and to provide gear slightly later which is better than the best-tier raiding of the prior expansion. So I'm not proposing what you've described, that's actually how games work. Just because you aren't literally reset to level 1 doesn't mean that isn't what's happening.
(*Combat can be replaced with other core activities, so long as it relates strongly to progression. But it's just the simplest and by far most common example.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical . A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
Player skill/experience is often a big part of horizontal progression. Sometimes its just specialized or situational skills that allow you to do something you couldn't do before but you're not more powerful. For example you get fire resistance cape to defeat fire dragon. This allows you defeat the fire dragon where you would melt before. But you're not suddenly way more powerful with numbers or in other situations that don't revolve around fire. You could just have a grappling hook that unlocks parts of the game.
Vertical progression and quest hubs allows the developers to ensure the players see all their content and control the content. Players are also conditioned to it.
You're talking about linear and scripted game game design, both of which can be independent of vertical progression and are another topic entirely.
I was talking more action adventure or just adventure. To me horizontal progression means your character is become more rounded instead of progressively more powerful.
Vertical progression goes 10 hp, 100 hp, 100 hp. You then get power A, B, C D, A2, A3, A4 and etc. Horizontal games do include some shallow vertical progression but you 50 hp the whole game. You get power A, B, C, D. Your powers usually are added to solve the game and difficulty is based on player skill and enemy toughness.
The most ironic thing about vertical progression is that a lot of times the difficulty is horizontal. You are always fighting the same level stuff as you.
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In horizontal you have WHOLE game to choose from, so it is wide variety of difficulty and if you happen to want to do THAT fight you will have to get skilled enough.
In vertical, since you actually get gear just from THAT fight its hard to get gear from a fight you cant beat. Its also a matter of grind slog to actually get to that fight. Not to mention that you only have that fight.
This is where you dont understand that RPG is player driven, vertical progression is developer driven. And i said BEST achieved, not ONLY achieved.
Its not a pillar, its means. It was "upgraded" to a pillar in MMOs (and in some single player games) BECAUSE there was/is nothing else. MMOs are hack&slash games. they are not RPGs. There were some good shots, but EQ/WoW made sure we dont get RPG along MMO.
MMOs have naturally attracted only people who like vertical progression, since they most of them didnt offer anything else. Just look at other genres which are pretty much all horizontal progression booming, while MMOs are struggling with vertical progression. Even MMOs are constantly trivializing vertical progression - WoW even has lvl90 thingy that every player who preordered expansion got and its available in cash shop. So yeah, vertical progression is on the way out, too many inherent flaws that cant really be corrected.
because that lvl90 thingy doesnt trivialize JUST progression. It trivializes 90% of the game.
The fact remains that being able to beat fights in ways that don't involve skill makes a game more casual than simply being told "well just don't fight that fight then".
Vertical progression is a pillar of RPGs. It's tiresome that we have to do this, but you need to understand the sheer magnitude of how wrong you are:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
IMO horizontal progression = no progression.
Sure you can go anywhere with horizontal.
And just do the same thing over and over with no sense of accomplishment.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
There were horizontal progression titles back in the early days, they were called Adventure games, and the characters went through and explored the story, and interacted with the environment, but they did not progress in skills or levels at all. Pretty boring to me and probably why that genre has basically all but vanished, people prefer vertical progression, at least in the RPG genre.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you are misunderstanding the returns of horizontal progression. It is about expanding gameplay, not increasing numbers.
There is always progression in both directions in an RPG. The difference is in the amount. For example, WOW is predominantly linear progression. Its horizontal progression is in the achievement systems, adding skills or crafting - upgrading them is vertical
. A game like Puzzle Pirates is almost exclusively horizontal progression, as the vertical path flows up and down with a player's (not character's) skills, victories, and defeats.
In an MMO, vertical progression is often used for working toward the game's measurable goals. Horizontal progression is often used as a tool distribution system to allow the players to work toward their goals. This is why MMORPGs tend to lean more toward a cattle chute in design for the former and an open range or the Wild West for the latter.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Player skill/experience is often a big part of horizontal progression. Sometimes its just specialized or situational skills that allow you to do something you couldn't do before but you're not more powerful. For example you get fire resistance cape to defeat fire dragon. This allows you defeat the fire dragon where you would melt before. But you're not suddenly way more powerful with numbers or in other situations that don't revolve around fire. You could just have a grappling hook that unlocks parts of the game.
Vertical progression and quest hubs allows the developers to ensure the players see all their content and control the content. Players are also conditioned to it.
Zork, Day of the Tentacle, Monkey Island... Were those among the boring? To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that there's anything wrong with not liking those games, just curious if you played those and if they fall into the Boring RPG category for you.
As for Axe's list, it's kind of interesting that it starts with the Ultima series. The first Ultima that comes to mind is Ultima 2, and that was entirely vertical progression, with your abilities and choices expanding as you found new items. Levels meant nothing, and attribute gain was a gambling reward. I forget how progression was in the other early Ultimas.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You're talking about linear and scripted game game design, both of which can be independent of vertical progression and are another topic entirely.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Vertical - the goal is to increase power - typically in ths form of primary stats through gear. There is no plateau.
Horizontal - the goal is to reach the power plateau then continue to broaden the available skills and options over time.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Still a little unclear what you are getting at in your last paragraph. I take this horizontal progression debate to mean an MMO where the entire world is open to you because you are not blocked off because of a lack of skill progression or level.
In other words you have an axe. That axe should be sufficient to keep you alive anywhere in the world with caution used. You won't run into something that is impossible to kill or avoid. You also can't change that axe into the Mithril Axe Of Destruction +5 nor can you raise your skill with that axe to Mythic level. It is just you and your axe.
But if you add vertical progression to that weapon or the axe skill, then you have done away with horizontal. You can't say a game has both and still call it horizontal. Not IMO.
You can look at MMO's as a chute or a ladder. I prefer to think of them as ladders. Cattle can't climb ladders.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
well, then try doing a "pro" raid in WoW and concider leaving that "lfr" tool once in a while.
player skill makes the differene between a HC blackhand kill (to name an example) or a whipe.
the diffrerence between 60k dmg or 100k.
seriously, if you don't know how to play your character in WoW, you might be able to do the basic raids, but end raid would require a team FULL of people who understood their chars to carry you :P
(not insulting "you" here, just naming "you" as another example)
but of cors, WoW has a VERRY HEAVY vertical progression, not gonna argue on that one. just saying there is horizontal too :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I only used WOW as an example because most here have played it, and I specifically stated "predominantly vertical" just to avoid WOW fans from going into a frenzy over some perceived slight. If "very heavy" would have worked better, then I apologize for my poor choice of words.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Interestingly enough, yes, I found all 3 of those titles boring, and while I did enjoy some early graphical adventures such as Kings Quest and Leisure suit Larry, once I picked up a copy of Bards Tale 1 (and another title I think was called Star Quest or something like that) I was hooked on progression oriented RPG's and never looked back
As for the Ultima series, I was never a big fan of the early ones, I recall playing 6, 7 and 8 maybe. I enjoyed Might and Magic, Wizardry and some others much more.
I really enjoyed Ultima when the underground series started, not so much before then.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes, levelling up the axe or your axe skill is vertical progression. That doesn't change how the axe can be used or where it can be used. The skill to chop wood, ability to hack through locked doors, proficiency at reducing the axe to base materials, or any other mechanics of 'axe' or its properties still exists, and those are part of a broader set of mechanics that support the game's horizontal progression.
The presence of one progression system doesn't negate the other. It actually gives the other more depth. Keen said it rather well a while back:
"I truly believe a game relying solely on horizontal progression is destined to lack depth and become boring. At the same time, if vertical progression is emphasized at the expense of horizontal, then an equally boring game about nothing more than chasing the next tier with absolutely zero depth will be the result." - Keen (link)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
This is like doing a poll on whether Coke or Pepsi tastes better...
It seems more of a discussion of how they differ, not which is better, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually no, how many people do old stuff in WoW?
Its not a pillar its a tool. Its tiresome that we have to do this, RPG can function flawlessly without any vertical progression.
NONE of those games had endless vertical progression, and they had VERY definite end and each new instalmnet started from lvl1. So is that what you propose? that with each new expansion/content patch everyone reverts to lvl1 and start over?
I even game mathematical representation of that.
When something is so dominant, you can just call it that.
And vertical progression has so many glaring issues, you dont have to look past WoW and all things they had to do over the years to soften those issues peaking at offering insta lvl90 thingy and scaling down all the numbers.
The poll is pointless... <insert any old comparison you like>... results are meaningless.
Yes I can certainly agree with that.
I think by making a game more horizontal, you are simply slowing down the wheel and adding more exploration and RP into the activities mix. Something sorely missing from most of today's MMO's, IMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
People do old stuff in WOW all the time in relation to how vertical progression makes things casual:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I was talking more action adventure or just adventure. To me horizontal progression means your character is become more rounded instead of progressively more powerful.
Vertical progression goes 10 hp, 100 hp, 100 hp. You then get power A, B, C D, A2, A3, A4 and etc. Horizontal games do include some shallow vertical progression but you 50 hp the whole game. You get power A, B, C, D. Your powers usually are added to solve the game and difficulty is based on player skill and enemy toughness.
The most ironic thing about vertical progression is that a lot of times the difficulty is horizontal. You are always fighting the same level stuff as you.