Ah yes, the Mighty Chris Roberts is immune to government oversight and intervention.
Not.
You think they'll only go for Chris without going for Kickstarter as well, implementing the stringent regulations and consumer protections that should have been there from the beginning?
Again, there is nothing they can do. It is his company, his money - there is no liability, people stuffed the money inside his pockets.
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer, you are a donor. He can do whatever he wants with the money collected, it is completely legal.
I guess that FTC created a group to deal specifically with Kickstarter and are starting to charge KS project, just for fun? Or its just marketing? Are they selling ships maybe?
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!
What if you just stopped the fanboy crap that you heard and bought as the ultimate true and started to educate yourself?
Ooo dont take me as defending KSers. I think they often are putting the money in the hands of people that should not have it. In the case of SC, IMO Chris is fast learning 85 mill can be spent real fast. Heck a staff of 200 can cost 10 mill a year if the average is only 50k a year. Building to house that many costs about 80-200k just to turn the lights on every day. Sure 85 mill is worth more because he has no interest to pay back but he still only has 85 mill. About 15 mill short of the starting cap to enter the game as a triple A MMO. Why people kept chucking 300-400 bucks a pop at a guy that has not proven he can handle a business that big I have no clue. I think KSers in a few years will be a sore spot for gamers they will not be happy to talk about.
And you know about theses 200 in the staff, how exactly?
I dont, just throwing around what the average is for a triple A game. He claims to be making one, most staff about 200 people. My point is not the exact numbers, my point is 85 mill can be spent very fast making an MMO. People kept talking like he has tones of cash and he does not. He has a business thats not making money, only spending. Only money they bring in is on the promise of something to come. Say he spends 85 mill to make the best MMO ever, where is the money coming from for the servers? Most corp business have that already set up because of other games. EA does not even care about that side of it when they make a new MMO. SC needs to factor that into his 85 mill. He really does not have much money when it comes to a triple A MMO.
None of this changes the fact that the doomsayers are simply showing how little they know about game dev and how shallow their views and opinions are on it.
Seriously kids, take your zoloft, calm down and wait until it is gold to start flipping out like 10y old kids fresh off a bad call of duty match.
So, maybe they had a chance, because by the time that they release we, the 10 year old kids will have 60 or 70 years old and then we will be "mature" enough to understand about game dev?
(I still wonder how I produced and released my games without knowing game dev by the way... guess was a lucky kid).
I guess that FTC created a group to deal specifically with Kickstarter and are starting to charge KS project, just for fun? Or its just marketing? Are they selling ships maybe?
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!
What if you just stopped the fanboy crap that you heard and bought as the ultimate true and started to educate yourself?
There's nothing fanboiish about what he said, such oversight is more about making sure folks don't pull a greed monger or an age of mourning style scam. It's much less about customer satisfaction as most consumer protections are.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
rage is for a triple A game. He claims to be making one, most staff about 200 people. My point is not the exact numbers, my point is 85 mill can be spent very fast making an MMO.
Your point would be the same if they did not have a schedule to respect AND they make more revenue not releasing, than releasing the game that they "claim that are trying to make"?
Originally posted by CrazKanuk What I find funniest with everything about SC over the past week is that, as MMORPG players, we should have a pretty good idea of how long it takes to develop an MMORPG. In fact, I think that when the SC Kickstarter was released there were plenty of people calling BS. 5 years is pretty much the time to market for an MMORPG. If I'm out of line on that, please feel free to tell me otherwise. Why people believe that SC would be any different is beyond me. It's fine if you feel like the model is effed. Plenty do, and it's not "unfair". However, they will try to make money. Don't buy the damn product. If you want to hold their feet to flame then feel free to do so when it's reasonable. So ttfn, talk to you in 2017.
Not all customers that pledged for this project are MMORPG players or know things about development. That's why there are obligations and responsibilities of companies when doing business with customers in general.
So, when the "Master of the Gods of the Game Industry" comes and say that he can make in two years, you would consider that he can, even been a MMORPG player.
You would say: "But he wouldn't be crazy to say such thing to people and then, do not fulfill. Wouldn't make any sense!".
And here we are.
Your advice is obvioulsy, the best one. But its sad, because due bad developers and money makers like Roberts, the good developers that could use earlier access and crowd-funding as a way, end suffering.
Who would believe in whatever indie that comes with a nice idea, reasonable, not impossible like the Roberts "vision". Nobody. Maybe a few Roberts fans would jump to help. But the recent crowd-funding campaigns of Space Sims have been proven that the group of followers of Roberts are not enough and their attitude, both of the group and of the company, is making sure to keep away a larger public. It's the end of the crowd-funding... supposedly to be boosted by Star Citizen, but ended ruined by what they started to do after ended the original campaign when they figured out that selling ships, in the vibe of those few whales behind them, would be better than sell or believe that the game could sell in the future.
Again, you're making a whole lot of assertions based on opinion instead of fact. There ARE a few facts, though. First of all, you keep talking about Legal Obligations. The only legal obligation is that they make every effort to deliver the project (which they are) and if they don't then they need to bring the project to a conclusion that satisfies their backers. There is zero legal obligation, unless you outright are doing nothing.
I'm not sure why you believe that Roberts is a "bad" developer. They aren't stealing any money from anybody else. Elite: Dangerous got very similar crowd funding to SC, but the game was completely different. It was a retail game, so they were relying on backend retail sales to make up whatever was lost in development. Unless you can give some quotes from Roberts saying that he's intentionally trying to stifle his competition and be evil, then I'd have to disagree with you on principal, and you're not helping yourself or your cause by looking like a crazy person. Roberts and Braben were both supportive of each others projects, in fact.
As far s people pledging to the game, they SHOULD understand the terms and risks associated with a crowd funding campaign. If they don't then that's on them. There is no "Guaranteed Release Date" field on a KS campaign. It's an estimated delivery date, and it's not a hard date. Also, I believe there was a time when that date had a limit (user couldn't go past 2 years or something), so that's another possibility. Either way, if you threw $20 at a KS campaign with complete ignorance, then you can't turn around now and say, "But I don't understand anything." Sorry, ignorance isn't an excuse for stupidity.
Again, an MMORPG takes like 5+ years to develop. So if you want to bitch and moan, then bottle it up until 2017.
I guess that FTC created a group to deal specifically with Kickstarter and are starting to charge KS project, just for fun? Or its just marketing? Are they selling ships maybe?
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!
What if you just stopped the fanboy crap that you heard and bought as the ultimate true and started to educate yourself?
There's nothing fanboiish about what he said, such oversight is more about making sure folks don't pull a greed monger or an age of mourning style scam. It's much less about customer satisfaction as most consumer protections are.
Yes. It is about customer satisfaction, because without it, there is no business that can survive in the medium/long term. It has nothing to do with how this is perceived by the law. This is not a donation.
Ah yes, the Mighty Chris Roberts is immune to government oversight and intervention.
Not.
You think they'll only go for Chris without going for Kickstarter as well, implementing the stringent regulations and consumer protections that should have been there from the beginning?
Again, there is nothing they can do. It is his company, his money - there is no liability, people stuffed the money inside his pockets.
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer, you are a donor. He can do whatever he wants with the money collected, it is completely legal.
I guess that FTC created a group to deal specifically with Kickstarter and are starting to charge KS project, just for fun? Or its just marketing? Are they selling ships maybe?
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!
What if you just stopped the fanboy crap that you heard and bought as the ultimate true and started to educate yourself?
On this I agree. Money thrown in for a Kickstarter project can't be treated as the personal piggy bank of the person starting the kickstarter. If the person(s) that creat a Kickstarter project fail to spend the money on the project as PROMISED and that project suddenly sees any sort of fraud going on, some sort of FTC intervention should take place.
However, only a portion of the money so far contributed to SC has come from Kickstarter. Therein lies the rub. Since CIG is doing there own collection of monies now, a whole new set of rules can apply. It still does not mean that CR can just pocket the money. It does mean that the Kickstarter promises do not apply to monies so recieved directly to CIG. And, those promises only apply to their marketing of items if certain contribution goals were/are reached. Not long ago, CIG stopped providing or setting monetary goals with features that would be added if that goal were reached. So, the benchmark or level of concern is only if those previously stated and PROMISED goals are not met. There is not timetable other then a "rough" one which CIG has previously said may slip depending upon many factor. Never have they said that they were going to start to scratch off some of those promises, only that they could cause delay of a rough timetable.
I have no crystal ball as to how this is going to end up. I hope that CR and company can pull it off. However, I tend to be a bit more conservative with my money. I will not contribute and more then I am willing to loose. I will not pay more then I would for a game of the PROMISED quailty. Period.
Originally posted by vgamer Good from CR to address this. Star Citizen will be the best game ever to grace mankind and you will all apologize when the day comes that His vision is realized. We fans will endure all hardships no matter all the illegitimate criticism and we will keep buying ships to support Him and His company! I wish CR would just give us a paypal number where we can directly funnel our cash into his pockets to speed up development.
Mr Roberts everybody.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
IF this is what you're referring to it's not an end all be all answer, it's an interpretation, which any lawyers argument is going to be, that's why they don't make the final decision. Which falls to another persons interpretation of said argument. The text book definition of a donation is quite simply a gift, or contribution. Which is exactly what a kickstarter pledge is. This also only applies to it being a "tax-deductible donation" it's right there in the print.
KICKSTARTER PLEDGES
Kickstarter transactions are further clouded by the word pledge, which is used to describe the money backers spend on a project, leaving people to wonder, among other things, if the money is a tax-deductible donation.
In all likelihood, it’s not a donation at all. [8] First, Kickstarter doesn't allow donation-based rewards, [9] and second, IRS regulations allow only qualified non-profit organizations and registered charities to accept tax-deductible donations. From a legal perspective, donations are what you put in the offering plate at your local church, synagogue, or mosque; not what you give to Kickstarter campaigns.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
None of this changes the fact that the doomsayers are simply showing how little they know about game dev and how shallow their views and opinions are on it.
Seriously kids, take your zoloft, calm down and wait until it is gold to start flipping out like 10y old kids fresh off a bad call of duty match.
So, maybe they had a chance, because by the time that they release we, the 10 year old kids will have 60 or 70 years old and then we will be "mature" enough to understand about game dev?
(I still wonder how I produced and released my games without knowing game dev by the way... guess was a lucky kid).
rage is for a triple A game. He claims to be making one, most staff about 200 people. My point is not the exact numbers, my point is 85 mill can be spent very fast making an MMO.
Your point would be the same if they did not have a schedule to respect AND they make more revenue not releasing, than releasing the game that they "claim that are trying to make"?
You cut off all the meat of my post that says what my point is, go back and read it, Im not retyping it.
Again, you're making a whole lot of assertions based on opinion instead of fact.
That was funny to re-read after what I read after that.
There ARE a few facts, though. First of all, you keep talking about Legal Obligations. The only legal obligation is that they make every effort to deliver the project (which they are) and if they don't then they need to bring the project to a conclusion that satisfies their backers. There is zero legal obligation, unless you outright are doing nothing.
"Marketing and advertising your products or services effectively is key to the success of your business. However, all businesses have a legal responsibility to ensure that any advertising claims are truthful, not deceptive and that your marketing activities don’t break the law."
"The Internet connects marketers to customers across the country and around the world. If you advertising online, remember the rules and guidelines that protect consumers also help businesses by maintaining the credibility of the Internet as a marketing medium. In addition, truth-in-advertising standards apply if you sell computers, software, apps, or other products or services.
"
Just a reminder. The advertising of CIG promises product and services. Not just the product, or just a try to make a product. Its a promise to deliver the product and services. Not a promise to try to make it. If what they said, give me the money and I will try to make it, very clearly and without doubt in their advertising, THEN, they wouldn't break the law. But they didn't, and, at the present moment, they broke the Fair ACt Law dozen of times along this project.
I'm not sure why you believe that Roberts is a "bad" developer. They aren't stealing any money from anybody else.
Stealing, is not what makes a developer bad. Stealing make him a bandit, to be put on jail.
Elite: Dangerous got very similar crowd funding to SC, but the game was completely different. It was a retail game, so they were relying on backend retail sales to make up whatever was lost in development.
Roberts got the money to make a game. The funding is to make it. Not for profit business, except AFTER release. It's THEIR deal, by the way.
Unless you can give some quotes from Roberts saying that he's intentionally trying to stifle his competition and be evil, then I'd have to disagree with you on principal, and you're not helping yourself or your cause by looking like a crazy person. Roberts and Braben were both supportive of each others projects, in fact.
So, do you think that for someone to be charged as breaking marketing and advertising laws, the person MUST to be get speaking that is intentionally breaking the law because is evil? You should just educate yourself about the law. There is no "intention" evaluated, when you break it or not. That's why its said that companies have the legal obligation of not doing deceptive marketing. And if Roberts don't know that after been owner of 3 earlier companies, well... if you want to see obvious about intention... the obvious is in his own resume. But again... "intention" means nothing when you break such law... repeatedly... and after ALERTED by many people about that (oh look, one more argument if you are so eagerly to find "intention").
As far s people pledging to the game, they SHOULD understand the terms and risks associated with a crowd funding campaign. If they don't then that's on them. There is no "Guaranteed Release Date" field on a KS campaign. It's an estimated delivery date, and it's not a hard date. Also, I believe there was a time when that date had a limit (user couldn't go past 2 years or something), so that's another possibility. Either way, if you threw $20 at a KS campaign with complete ignorance, then you can't turn around now and say, "But I don't understand anything." Sorry, ignorance isn't an excuse for stupidity.
So, why in the complaint officially opened by FTC against a crowd-funding project, they actually put the delays as an argument? That alone, have not too much weight indeed. But that together with other flaws and repeated bait-and-switch made by the company from the beginning, and even later, build a case with no possibilities to CIG to hope to have any defense.
It's very well know that "estimate" in the software industry IS NOT a word... It's a PROCESS... and in 2015, every single developer of the world that studied the basics, know that while estimates can be wrong, there is a ball park that if it passed, you can easily classify as not an estimate at all, but a try to mislead the customer. And from that, you put in count that its not whatever person who is doing that, but a serious veteran of the industry. Again... no defense my friend. You can scream the dictionary meaning of the word how many times that you prefer... but in a court of law, with these arguments put in place, CIG has not a chance. Arguments that any half-brain with the minimum knowledge about these matters would bring.
"But I don't understand anything." Sorry, ignorance isn't an excuse for stupidity.
This is total valid for my argument above. Not for customers. See? Your own motto above, screwed Roberts defense.
The Federal Trade Commission Act allows the FTC to act in the interest of all consumers to prevent deceptive and unfair acts or practices. In interpreting Section 5 of the Act, the Commission has determined that a representation, omission or practice is deceptive if it is likely to:
mislead consumers and
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service.
rage is for a triple A game. He claims to be making one, most staff about 200 people. My point is not the exact numbers, my point is 85 mill can be spent very fast making an MMO.
Your point would be the same if they did not have a schedule to respect AND they make more revenue not releasing, than releasing the game that they "claim that are trying to make"?
You cut off all the meat of my post that says what my point is, go back and read it, Im not retyping it.
You talked a lot that they are burning money based in other MMO developments which ACTUALLY have a target date to be completed and DO NOT sell anything in-between, meaning, they need to deliver to get money as soon as possible.
That is not the case with THIS project.
"Our limited resources" - said Ben Lesnick and referring to man power (not money)... don't skip that my friend... sometimes, these devs screw themselves when they try to play the fanboy heroes.
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service.
Where have they done that? Again not defending this company or KSers but so far from what I have seen this seems business as normal. Companies making this type of game takes many years to make and dont talk a lot till they get to the end of closed beta to the start of open beta. Thats been the norm going back 16-17 years of the MMOs I have followed. Some dont even say anything at all till a few weeks from release. Some companies dont even say they are making a MMO till its a few months from release. Strap in your in for a long haul.
The Federal Trade Commission Act allows the FTC to act in the interest of all consumers to prevent deceptive and unfair acts or practices. In interpreting Section 5 of the Act, the Commission has determined that a representation, omission or practice is deceptive if it is likely to:
mislead consumers and
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service.
Just about everything is open to interpretation. Legal systems makes sure of that... kind of a conflict of interest make work project. Otherwise we'd have a hell of a lot of unemployed lawyers.
However, only a portion of the money so far contributed to SC has come from Kickstarter. Therein lies the rub. Since CIG is doing there own collection of monies now, a whole new set of rules can apply.
There is no misleading rule that you could put in any Terms of Services that could remove customer rights or contradict advertised statements. If that is the case, the deal became abusive beyond customer rights and is immediatelly discarded as a matter of the defense.
And pay attention to this, for those who puts all their hopes and "fell safe" just putting disclaimers and presume that it means more than it actually means (source: Federal Trade Comission):
"
Disclaimers and disclosures must be clear and conspicuous. That is, consumers must be able to notice, read or hear, and understand the information. Still, a disclaimer or disclosure ALONE usually is not enough to remedy a false or deceptive claim.
"
In fact, CIG made sure to change his TOS along the road in such way, that it can be more used as a matter to prosecute them, than to defend them. It's useless.. They are out in the wind, just waiting for some backer that spend a lot of money to be really pissed of... or a good quantity of backers complain to FTC and they just "look" to the situation for a few days.
People and you also failed to see something very important. While the advertising of other crowd-funding campaigns could promise just a final product and be very specific about delay possibilities and this way... that was NOT ONLY what CIG advertised. They also advertised... and STRONGLY... SERVICES and EXCLUSIVITIES and LATER, did not accomplish with such services and excluvities, for the sake to gather more money. This is not JUST classified as a misleading the customer, but also as an bad faith on business (good faith... a word that they used in their TOS by the way). And they also advertised that if they received MORE money they would release the game as promised EARLIER, in a matter of fact, in the "2 year time period" (and not later as they are doing). So, here you have a serious difference between the CIG Kickstarter pitch and others. And that basically let them, as I said, like a ball in below the goal without defense possible... just waiting for someone to give the kick, because it's basically impossible to miss the goal.
However, only a portion of the money so far contributed to SC has come from Kickstarter. Therein lies the rub. Since CIG is doing there own collection of monies now, a whole new set of rules can apply.
There is no misleading rule that you could put in any Terms of Services that could remove customer rights or contradict advertised statements. If that is the case, the deal became abusive beyond customer rights and is immediatelly discarded as a matter of the defense.
And pay attention to these, to those who presume that a disclaimer means more than it actually means (source: Federal Trade Comission):
"
Disclaimers and disclosures must be clear and conspicuous. That is, consumers must be able to notice, read or hear, and understand the information. Still, a disclaimer or disclosure ALONE usually is not enough to remedy a false or deceptive claim.
"
In fact, CIG made sure to change his TOS along the road in such way, that it can be more used as a matter to prosecute them, than to defend them. It's useless.. They are out in the wind, just waiting for some backer that spend a lot of money to be really pissed of... or a good quantity of backers complain to FTC and they just "look" to the situation for a few days.
People and you also failed to see something very important. While the advertising of other crowd-funding campaigns could promise just a final product and be very specific about delay possibilities and this way... that was NOT ONLY what CIG advertised. They also advertised... and STRONGLY... SERVICES and EXCLUSIVITIES and LATER, did not accomplish with such services and excluvities, for the sake to gather more money. This is not JUST classified as a misleading the customer, but also as an bad faith on business (good faith... a word that they used in their TOS by the way). And they also advertised that if they received MORE money they would release the game as promised EARLIER, in a matter of fact, in the "2 year time period" (and not later as they are doing). So, here you have a serious difference between the CIG Kickstarter pitch and others. And that basically let them, as I said, like a ball in below the goal without defense possible... just waiting for someone to give the kick, because it's basically impossible to miss the goal.
Did they say the could, or would release sooner if they got extra money? Have they passed their promise release date?
The Federal Trade Commission Act allows the FTC to act in the interest of all consumers to prevent deceptive and unfair acts or practices. In interpreting Section 5 of the Act, the Commission has determined that a representation, omission or practice is deceptive if it is likely to:
mislead consumers and
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service.
Just about everything is open to interpretation. Legal systems makes sure of that... kind of a conflict of interest make work project. Otherwise we'd have a hell of a lot of unemployed lawyers.
The interpretation is of who RULES, OVERSEES and REGULATES the matter in the country that CIG is inside, meaning, you follow that, or ask that FTC does not rule, oversees and regulate that anymore, ok? Send a letter to your congress man asking for that then.
LoL
Of course there are NO unemployed lawyers that try to defend a case like would be one opened against CIG, all things considered... And they know that are earning money from a dumb customer that cannot see a lost cause
However, only a portion of the money so far contributed to SC has come from Kickstarter. Therein lies the rub. Since CIG is doing there own collection of monies now, a whole new set of rules can apply.
There is no misleading rule that you could put in any Terms of Services that could remove customer rights or contradict advertised statements. If that is the case, the deal became abusive beyond customer rights and is immediatelly discarded as a matter of the defense.
And pay attention to these, to those who presume that a disclaimer means more than it actually means (source: Federal Trade Comission):
"
Disclaimers and disclosures must be clear and conspicuous. That is, consumers must be able to notice, read or hear, and understand the information. Still, a disclaimer or disclosure ALONE usually is not enough to remedy a false or deceptive claim.
"
In fact, CIG made sure to change his TOS along the road in such way, that it can be more used as a matter to prosecute them, than to defend them. It's useless.. They are out in the wind, just waiting for some backer that spend a lot of money to be really pissed of... or a good quantity of backers complain to FTC and they just "look" to the situation for a few days.
People and you also failed to see something very important. While the advertising of other crowd-funding campaigns could promise just a final product and be very specific about delay possibilities and this way... that was NOT ONLY what CIG advertised. They also advertised... and STRONGLY... SERVICES and EXCLUSIVITIES and LATER, did not accomplish with such services and excluvities, for the sake to gather more money. This is not JUST classified as a misleading the customer, but also as an bad faith on business (good faith... a word that they used in their TOS by the way). And they also advertised that if they received MORE money they would release the game as promised EARLIER, in a matter of fact, in the "2 year time period" (and not later as they are doing). So, here you have a serious difference between the CIG Kickstarter pitch and others. And that basically let them, as I said, like a ball in below the goal without defense possible... just waiting for someone to give the kick, because it's basically impossible to miss the goal.
Did they say the could, or would release sooner if they got extra money? Have they passed their promise release date?
Campaign ended on November 2012. About services (just an example, there are more):
The people who pledge for their spaceships will get to test-fly them long before the general public. 12 months in, we will allow the early backers to play the multiplayer space combat Alpha, and then 20-22 months in they will get to play the Star Citizen Beta, adventuring around the huge open galaxy, well before the general public.
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service.
Where have they done that? Again not defending this company or KSers but so far from what I have seen this seems business as normal. Companies making this type of game takes many years to make and dont talk a lot till they get to the end of closed beta to the start of open beta. Thats been the norm going back 16-17 years of the MMOs I have followed. Some dont even say anything at all till a few weeks from release. Some companies dont even say they are making a MMO till its a few months from release. Strap in your in for a long haul.
Well... That is the point. You got it. As you see, for who knows the matter, and have experience (not a requirement to have when you pledge for anything in a KS campaign), knows that they take many years to make.
But then comes Chris Roberts (20 year veteran game developer), misleading the customer and stating that would release in 2 years. Well... it can seduce even those who believe, because, you could think that they guy is already advanced in the development, like HE SAID that was in interviews, and "show to prove that" in-game footage, or implied that it was an advanced status in earlier interviews (and interviews are also considered as advertising in this scenario), and if you check the history of their own forums, from the start, you would know that it was "common sense" between the backers and fans that would come in time, and people were even banned, or targeted to ban hammer, when they told that the game in no way would come in such time. Or he could have a new tech that could make him to release. One of the strongest arguments that made people pledge, definitely was that would come earlier.
As even DS noticed, if they told that would take 5, 6 or 10 years to make, people would laugh and wouldn't pledge... Many people.
See?
And promising, besides the game, a miriad of services and exclusive stuff not accomplished, and promises that CANNOT be accomplished anymore EVER, promises ALREADY broken.
Originally posted by jcrg99 I guess that FTC created a group to deal specifically with Kickstarter and are starting to charge KS project, just for fun? Or its just marketing? Are they selling ships maybe? Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumerROFL!!!!!!!!!!What if you just stopped the fanboy crap that you heard and bought as the ultimate true and started to educate yourself?Here, it can help you with that:http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DanRogers/20150309/238279/Understanding_Your_Kickstarter_Liabilities.php
Nothing in iarticle invalidates any of what I said, in fact it follows my previous statements - crowdfunding being a loophole in legal system, offering money with no obligations.
"and then the counter argument is that the phrase has a different meaning beyond the individual words. This counter argument is correct."
I couldn't read past this...
Arguing semantics during damage control is never a good sign. 'Don't look at Merriam Webster, folks; here at RSI we have our own definition of things. All backers are created equal, but some are more equal than others...'
85 million dollars and too lazy to pick up a dictionary...
/headshake
I mean, I think it's great they are trying to make this game, but this is why I just... can't... follow the dev team. Hopefully they are able to turn out a decent game, but for right now they are telling you not to believe the actual dictionary. How's that for a word combination?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Comments
I guess that FTC created a group to deal specifically with Kickstarter and are starting to charge KS project, just for fun? Or its just marketing? Are they selling ships maybe?
Backing Kickstarter does not put you on terms as a consumer
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!
What if you just stopped the fanboy crap that you heard and bought as the ultimate true and started to educate yourself?
Here, it can help you with that:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DanRogers/20150309/238279/Understanding_Your_Kickstarter_Liabilities.php
I dont, just throwing around what the average is for a triple A game. He claims to be making one, most staff about 200 people. My point is not the exact numbers, my point is 85 mill can be spent very fast making an MMO. People kept talking like he has tones of cash and he does not. He has a business thats not making money, only spending. Only money they bring in is on the promise of something to come. Say he spends 85 mill to make the best MMO ever, where is the money coming from for the servers? Most corp business have that already set up because of other games. EA does not even care about that side of it when they make a new MMO. SC needs to factor that into his 85 mill. He really does not have much money when it comes to a triple A MMO.
So, maybe they had a chance, because by the time that they release we, the 10 year old kids will have 60 or 70 years old and then we will be "mature" enough to understand about game dev?
(I still wonder how I produced and released my games without knowing game dev by the way... guess was a lucky kid).
No. It's not:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DanRogers/20150309/238279/Understanding_Your_Kickstarter_Liabilities.php
There's nothing fanboiish about what he said, such oversight is more about making sure folks don't pull a greed monger or an age of mourning style scam. It's much less about customer satisfaction as most consumer protections are.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Your point would be the same if they did not have a schedule to respect AND they make more revenue not releasing, than releasing the game that they "claim that are trying to make"?
Again, you're making a whole lot of assertions based on opinion instead of fact. There ARE a few facts, though. First of all, you keep talking about Legal Obligations. The only legal obligation is that they make every effort to deliver the project (which they are) and if they don't then they need to bring the project to a conclusion that satisfies their backers. There is zero legal obligation, unless you outright are doing nothing.
I'm not sure why you believe that Roberts is a "bad" developer. They aren't stealing any money from anybody else. Elite: Dangerous got very similar crowd funding to SC, but the game was completely different. It was a retail game, so they were relying on backend retail sales to make up whatever was lost in development. Unless you can give some quotes from Roberts saying that he's intentionally trying to stifle his competition and be evil, then I'd have to disagree with you on principal, and you're not helping yourself or your cause by looking like a crazy person. Roberts and Braben were both supportive of each others projects, in fact.
As far s people pledging to the game, they SHOULD understand the terms and risks associated with a crowd funding campaign. If they don't then that's on them. There is no "Guaranteed Release Date" field on a KS campaign. It's an estimated delivery date, and it's not a hard date. Also, I believe there was a time when that date had a limit (user couldn't go past 2 years or something), so that's another possibility. Either way, if you threw $20 at a KS campaign with complete ignorance, then you can't turn around now and say, "But I don't understand anything." Sorry, ignorance isn't an excuse for stupidity.
Again, an MMORPG takes like 5+ years to develop. So if you want to bitch and moan, then bottle it up until 2017.
Crazkanuk
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Yes. It is about customer satisfaction, because without it, there is no business that can survive in the medium/long term. It has nothing to do with how this is perceived by the law. This is not a donation.
On this I agree. Money thrown in for a Kickstarter project can't be treated as the personal piggy bank of the person starting the kickstarter. If the person(s) that creat a Kickstarter project fail to spend the money on the project as PROMISED and that project suddenly sees any sort of fraud going on, some sort of FTC intervention should take place.
However, only a portion of the money so far contributed to SC has come from Kickstarter. Therein lies the rub. Since CIG is doing there own collection of monies now, a whole new set of rules can apply. It still does not mean that CR can just pocket the money. It does mean that the Kickstarter promises do not apply to monies so recieved directly to CIG. And, those promises only apply to their marketing of items if certain contribution goals were/are reached. Not long ago, CIG stopped providing or setting monetary goals with features that would be added if that goal were reached. So, the benchmark or level of concern is only if those previously stated and PROMISED goals are not met. There is not timetable other then a "rough" one which CIG has previously said may slip depending upon many factor. Never have they said that they were going to start to scratch off some of those promises, only that they could cause delay of a rough timetable.
I have no crystal ball as to how this is going to end up. I hope that CR and company can pull it off. However, I tend to be a bit more conservative with my money. I will not contribute and more then I am willing to loose. I will not pay more then I would for a game of the PROMISED quailty. Period.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Mr Roberts everybody.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
IF this is what you're referring to it's not an end all be all answer, it's an interpretation, which any lawyers argument is going to be, that's why they don't make the final decision. Which falls to another persons interpretation of said argument. The text book definition of a donation is quite simply a gift, or contribution. Which is exactly what a kickstarter pledge is. This also only applies to it being a "tax-deductible donation" it's right there in the print.
KICKSTARTER PLEDGES
Kickstarter transactions are further clouded by the word pledge, which is used to describe the money backers spend on a project, leaving people to wonder, among other things, if the money is a tax-deductible donation.
In all likelihood, it’s not a donation at all. [8] First, Kickstarter doesn't allow donation-based rewards, [9] and second, IRS regulations allow only qualified non-profit organizations and registered charities to accept tax-deductible donations. From a legal perspective, donations are what you put in the offering plate at your local church, synagogue, or mosque; not what you give to Kickstarter campaigns.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Link to some of your games or I call BS =-)
You cut off all the meat of my post that says what my point is, go back and read it, Im not retyping it.
Another persons like, the Federal Trade Comission?
https://www.sba.gov/content/advertising-and-marketing-law
"The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) oversees and regulates advertising and marketing law in the United States."
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/advertising-marketing-internet-rules-road
The Federal Trade Commission Act allows the FTC to act in the interest of all consumers to prevent deceptive and unfair acts or practices. In interpreting Section 5 of the Act, the Commission has determined that a representation, omission or practice is deceptive if it is likely to:
You talked a lot that they are burning money based in other MMO developments which ACTUALLY have a target date to be completed and DO NOT sell anything in-between, meaning, they need to deliver to get money as soon as possible.
That is not the case with THIS project.
"Our limited resources" - said Ben Lesnick and referring to man power (not money)... don't skip that my friend... sometimes, these devs screw themselves when they try to play the fanboy heroes.
Where have they done that? Again not defending this company or KSers but so far from what I have seen this seems business as normal. Companies making this type of game takes many years to make and dont talk a lot till they get to the end of closed beta to the start of open beta. Thats been the norm going back 16-17 years of the MMOs I have followed. Some dont even say anything at all till a few weeks from release. Some companies dont even say they are making a MMO till its a few months from release. Strap in your in for a long haul.
Just about everything is open to interpretation. Legal systems makes sure of that... kind of a conflict of interest make work project. Otherwise we'd have a hell of a lot of unemployed lawyers.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Did they say the could, or would release sooner if they got extra money? Have they passed their promise release date?
The interpretation is of who RULES, OVERSEES and REGULATES the matter in the country that CIG is inside, meaning, you follow that, or ask that FTC does not rule, oversees and regulate that anymore, ok? Send a letter to your congress man asking for that then.
LoL
Of course there are NO unemployed lawyers that try to defend a case like would be one opened against CIG, all things considered... And they know that are earning money from a dumb customer that cannot see a lost cause
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description
Campaign ended on November 2012. About services (just an example, there are more):
The people who pledge for their spaceships will get to test-fly them long before the general public. 12 months in, we will allow the early backers to play the multiplayer space combat Alpha, and then 20-22 months in they will get to play the Star Citizen Beta, adventuring around the huge open galaxy, well before the general public.
And about your question:
Can you explain the stretch goals?
The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period.
Well... That is the point. You got it. As you see, for who knows the matter, and have experience (not a requirement to have when you pledge for anything in a KS campaign), knows that they take many years to make.
But then comes Chris Roberts (20 year veteran game developer), misleading the customer and stating that would release in 2 years. Well... it can seduce even those who believe, because, you could think that they guy is already advanced in the development, like HE SAID that was in interviews, and "show to prove that" in-game footage, or implied that it was an advanced status in earlier interviews (and interviews are also considered as advertising in this scenario), and if you check the history of their own forums, from the start, you would know that it was "common sense" between the backers and fans that would come in time, and people were even banned, or targeted to ban hammer, when they told that the game in no way would come in such time. Or he could have a new tech that could make him to release. One of the strongest arguments that made people pledge, definitely was that would come earlier.
As even DS noticed, if they told that would take 5, 6 or 10 years to make, people would laugh and wouldn't pledge... Many people.
See?
And promising, besides the game, a miriad of services and exclusive stuff not accomplished, and promises that CANNOT be accomplished anymore EVER, promises ALREADY broken.
Nothing in iarticle invalidates any of what I said, in fact it follows my previous statements - crowdfunding being a loophole in legal system, offering money with no obligations.
"and then the counter argument is that the phrase has a different meaning beyond the individual words. This counter argument is correct."
I couldn't read past this...
Arguing semantics during damage control is never a good sign. 'Don't look at Merriam Webster, folks; here at RSI we have our own definition of things. All backers are created equal, but some are more equal than others...'
85 million dollars and too lazy to pick up a dictionary...
/headshake
I mean, I think it's great they are trying to make this game, but this is why I just... can't... follow the dev team. Hopefully they are able to turn out a decent game, but for right now they are telling you not to believe the actual dictionary. How's that for a word combination?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance