When they were going through more and more stretch goals, it had the feel of stuff made up by a bunch of guys in an ad hoc meeting going 'Can anyone think up something new to add? We need another goal!'.
Never got the idea that they had actually planned out any of the technical details for all of them. Just throwing stuff on the wall and hoping they'd stick. Except now they have to try and make everything they came up with stick.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
SC hasn't either so a case could be made against it based on their kickstarter page.
What rewards weren't supposedly delivered? Where did CIG promised any delivery date?
Kickstarter TOS is the same, they only changed wording a bit to make it more clear.
Nothing is turning, it is the same as always and very likely remain this way since there is no reason for change - if people want to throw money on someone/something, it's their own choice, their own decision and responsibility.
Go to their ks page. They were promising squadron 42 and the PU in November 2014. They still haven't delivered sq42 or the PU so yes promises were made on the page and they haven't materialized. Just like the lawsuit listed in the polygon article they promised rewards in 2012 and still hasn't delivered anything they promised by 2013.
Originally posted by Kefo Go to their ks page. They were promising squadron 42 and the PU in November 2014. They still haven't delivered sq42 or the PU so yes promises were made on the page and they haven't materialized. Just like the lawsuit listed in the polygon article they promised rewards in 2012 and still hasn't delivered anything they promised by 2013.
The article was about missed delivery dates of rewards, only thing that CIG is obliged to deliver.
So again: What rewards weren't supposedly delivered? Where did CIG promised any delivery dates?
It's late. Of course it's late. Anyone who thought it was going to be produced on time was extremely credulous. Be they detractors or fans.
Hell, it's in the second line about inevitability, after Death and Taxes. 'Chris Roberts games will always be really, really late.' You don't sue tortoises for not making bunny runs.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THIS EXCUSE FROM WAY TOO MANY DEVs:
"The thing to remember is that we work with limited development resources. "
GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK! SC broke records with the amount of money it obtained from backers, THERE SHOULD BE NO LIMITED "ANYTHING"!!!!
Sounds like someone is mismanaging ALL THAT MONEY.
After all that, he still doesn't get it.
Some of us are born to create, build and manage, others are born to just play with things. To those I say, go find something to play with until next Xmas.
Go to their ks page. They were promising squadron 42 and the PU in November 2014. They still haven't delivered sq42 or the PU so yes promises were made on the page and they haven't materialized. Just like the lawsuit listed in the polygon article they promised rewards in 2012 and still hasn't delivered anything they promised by 2013.
The article was about missed delivery dates of rewards, only thing that CIG is obliged to deliver.
So again: What rewards weren't supposedly delivered? Where did CIG promised any delivery dates?
I'll say it again. Goto SC kickstarter page. Now see under all of the pledges where it says estimated delivery date? It says Nov 2014. That's where they promised a delivery date. If you want to see what they should have delivered read any of the pledges.
Originally posted by KefoI'll say it again. Goto SC kickstarter page. Now see under all of the pledges where it says estimated delivery date? It says Nov 2014. That's where they promised a delivery date. If you want to see what they should have delivered read any of the pledges.
Do you understand what "estimated" means...?
As far as I am aware, people did get their playable ships in AC module, alpha access, credits and alike.
So I assume you are just letting your mouth run wild...
People CANNOT treat Kickstarter or crowfunding generically as those claiming no need of accoutnability are doing.
While some crowdfundings can be considered as a donation, others do not.
If a crowdfunding asks money to make a movie, without giving you anything in return, delivery date, nothing, and, important to say, they do not omit that, meaning, they clearly state that are going to release when they want, than they are not accountable for... EXCEPT... if they announce the project cancelled.
Even donations are regulated. You can presume that can ask donations to help children and be got spending the money on whores. The penalties here wouldn't be just monetaries. So. that would be a lot worst for the perpetrator.
If the movie offer you a copy of the movie, its a sale. Period. Just like you buy a house yet to be build. Or buy for as service, yet to be completed (as promised). If you put your car to wash and the guy do not deliver clean in an acceptable time frame and keep saying that it's taking longer because he is adding more quimicals to clean better, the validity of what he said is ZERO. It's just a excuse. Have you asked for that, even if it was for free? Nope. So, he is committed to deliver what he promised in the time promised. The nature of the business, in different flavors, are ALL the same.
Accountability will depend of the pitch, the advertising made by the responsible for the project.
If he gives you an estimate, he is accountable for it.
Estimate cannot just be whatever non sense date. If the guy behind the movie is a PRO, and claimed that will make the movie, of a certain size, that will take 2 years, while, the standard for the industry is that for movies of such size would take at least 7 years to make, a commom sense between professionals of the area,
it can be assumed that who is behind this new project could be already advanced in the filming (remember that advanced gameplay that CR shown?), could have new tech to make it faster, etc (remember his ptich saying that and talking about CE, etc?).
Customers are not pros, so, if they hear a pro saying that he can, they can presume that he can.
But if in practice, is demonstrated along the project that the movie maker will take just that standard of 7 years anyway, or more, he couldn't simply say that made a mistake. He is a pro.
No judge, jury, whatever, would accept that he deviate fro 2 years to 7. People are thinking that judges are idiots. LoL
The estimate then, becomes, a bait and switch, used to mislead the customer. BUT that, ALONE, couldn't be rich enough to back up a claim of deceptive marketing/false advertising. You need more elements to ADD to it.
If you check the complaints openes already by FTC against crowdfunding, or lawsuits opened by attourneys in certain states of US, you will see that they use the estimate missed, as ONE element, that ADDED to OTHERS make their claim a win cause.
And THAT is the case of what happened with Cloud Imperium Games. They not JUST mislead customers in that estimate, but also in their entire pitch and offfers of exclusivities and services. And kept doing that MONTHS, YEARS later after the original pitch. So... against CIG, is the biggest easy cake EVER, for any half-brain attourney.
So, people are saying, "oh but there's no law"... but actually there is. Its called recharacterization. If was necessary to write a law for each new "flavor", or twisted business that actually ends to be just like others that are in place for centuries, that would be a nightmare and the con men would be walking free without fear of breaking any law.
YES! They still walk free, BUT, only because people do not pursuit their rights, in general, for a variety of reasons. But if it's pursuit and the evidences are STRONG (as is the case of CIG), it's a certain win cause.
If the guy was right, to escape from accountability, stores would start to label "pledge". Constructions company selling apartments yet in the piece of paper, would call "pledge" or to make my point... "bananas".
"Please, if you banana here, you will get this in 5 days".
The customer go back later and the salesman say "dont care, you are not a customer, you did not purchase, you bananazed only"
In the court of law a jduge would say... "oh he is right, that was not a sale, that was banana,".
The court of law won't look for labels. They will see the "nature" of the business. And crowd-funding with rewards is CLEARLY a sale, no matter how many times fanboys or CR or Molineux or even Kickstarter/Indiegogo, personal blogs, tried to twist his meaning for your own sake. Actually, if they tried to do that and keep trying to pretend, they are considered as acting in bad faith. Customers can be ignorant. Companies do not. They have legal responsibilites and must know that. If they do not know them, ignore them, or twist them... good luck to them. They are putting their asses on line to be a easy cake in any lawsuit. And that's why FTC says: "The law is to protect both customers and companies", because sometimes, the company "made a mistake", but it does not matter, because they have the LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY of do not make such mistake, and even that a customer comes with "evil wishes" or "to take advantage", they, the company BROUGHT THAT to themselves.
That's why companies have the LEGAL responsibility of not doing deceptive marketing. It does not matter if theres is good faith or not, did by ignorance, etc. FTC does not care. The Law, THIS LAW, does not care.
If we have been talking about a MURDER, the motives and others stuff, intention, could be evaluated. But that IS NOT the case of marketing and advertising laws. If that was the case, would be impossible to get any company, because you never could get that footage of the guy saying "oh, here I am going to make a bait-and-switch to get more money". It's impossible. And that's why the law does not care with "intention" and made clear, that is the legal responsilibity of the BUSINESS to do not make deceptive marketing, FOR HIS OWN SAKE and for the sake of the customers too.
Also, crowd funding cannot be generalized as just "pledging to get a final product", when its the case.
Its not "generic" at all. It has some generic guidelines, but, in the end, it depends of each pitch,
it depends of what the owner of the campaign describes, and promisse, and, he can't omit information too. The lack of a statement that they can suffer delays AND an idea of the possible size of the delay, is also, deceptive marketing. Because its common sense, for example, that a delay have a ball park. You cannot characterize "estimate" made by a PRO and then that escape 4 years, when the standard of the industry is no more than 1. It's pretty much ridiculous people! Please, don't be ridiculous! Judges are not idiots. And attourneys know how to build an argument, that when backed up by entities who oversees and regulate, cannot be defended. Whatever you say, can't change the law and how is interpreted BY THE REGULATOR!
Again, it goes back to "who is doing the pitch too... a nobody that could make a mistake of a newbie, or a pro".
A pitch can also promisse services, not just the final product. Failing to deliver those services, ends to be, deception, again. If they promise exclusivities for backers and then remove that, deception again.
Cloud Imperium Games, failed to deliver his game to backers according with their pitch. Saying that "is still making it" depends. If someone started now a lawsuit against CIG, they can produce a set of evidences that could show that CIG can keep saying that are going to produce the game, basically forever. CIG made sure to give all the proves for this kind of argument, by adding more things to the game, by failing to deliver in both short-term and long-term estimates and stating that "is worried with people that are looking to them" and so on. Thank you "open development" and thank you CR by your televangelist double-edge sword speech, would say any attourney.
CIG also failed to deliver the services promised. Also removed the promised exclusivities for backers. And as continued his funding campaign, deceptively classifying that as funding, was deceptive again, because announced the game as fully funded years earlier and kept calling funding. Funding what is already fully funded and was publicly announced as fully funded. Meh!
CIG history has a true epic of deceptive marketing. Its really big. Its in the blood of the company basically. Do not make mistake. They still will continue to feed many people with more proof. Each new week, they make more bs.
Fans, from the beginning kept spreading misinformation about accountability in the hope of minimize the number of people criticizing or demanding. It was their argument to say to people that they are not entitled and that "their gods" could do whatever they want, and change, or break promisses or expand as please them. Just that. That's why you see many of them repeating them like have read in a bible or from a preach.
That is a falacy. People who really bought this, are been mislead, at this case, more by the speech of the fans, than cig itself.
TL;DR: it depends of the pitch. The description of a ks or any other funding platform or personal blog in the internet or whatever other platform will state what the business is about, if just an offer of a final product, sending you the copy, or if it includes additional services or exclusivities offered.
I am going to give you people, an example of another game, called Elite Dangerous. You could say that they "are safe" because they released the game. Nope. They are not... (check my next post)
I'll say it again. Goto SC kickstarter page. Now see under all of the pledges where it says estimated delivery date? It says Nov 2014. That's where they promised a delivery date. If you want to see what they should have delivered read any of the pledges.
Do you understand what "estimated" means...?
As far as I am aware, people did get their playable ships in AC module, alpha access, credits and alike.
So I assume you are just letting your mouth run wild...
I'm well aware of what estimated means. Perhaps you should re-read the articles I linked where they specifically say the estimated delivery date was in 2012 but they were still being sued for not delivering on their promises.
Have people received the complete game yet? If they have it would be news to me especially since the pledges say the finished game.
Reading comprehension goes a long way in ensuring you don't stick your foot in your mouth.
Damn tablet.. lemme continue... ED promised/advertised a offline mode and cancelled or were pretty vague if one day can be done.
While they, later, started to give refunds to everyone, they were got saying that wouldn't.
That was mislead customers about their actual rights. The company put themselves in such position. Arguments like "people want to take advantage of getting the money and buying cheaper later" are empty... Remember? They have the legal responsibility exactly to protect them from evil customers too. They brought this to themselves. And while so far it had only trust repercutions, they could suffer legal repercutions too.
At the same case that they sold lifetime expansion packs. If they never release any paid expansion, or that in sum of the price ticket, do not pass of that "promotional" price, backers who bought them can go against them, or an insttution like FTC (from UK I don't know its name) could, or local attourneys, depending of the number of complaints, calling their attention. Do not make mistake. These kind of law is pretty standard in all the countries.
So... there is no such urban legend that cig fanboys (and of other crowdfunded projects) spread. Their arguments do not hold in any court of law of any country, where the rules of marketing and advertisisng are almost like a copy and paste of each other with a few variations jsut to be MORE restrictive in some, not less.
In the case of US, ANY business...ANY.., and i say one more time...ANY Business, no matter if you call bananas or pledges or funding, are under the regulation of the us marketing and advertising laws, more specifically to the case, the Fair Act which states about deceptive markeing and false advertising.
Period. Its not even opened to discussion in US.
FTC who regulates the matter made sure to put a rest in such possibility, of different interpretations of the law. Yes. People keept talking "oh, but a lawyer could have different interpretations" this or that. YES, many cases of laws have this issue. NOT the Fair Act, because FTC came in public and stated what the interpretation MUST to be. So, it's the end of any possibility to discuss that the law could be ambiguous.
Unless anyone show me that his interpretation oversees the interpretation of the Federal Trade Comission, they are just talking non-sense.
Unless someone show me that FTC in some point, lost his power of oversees and regulates the matter, and now the world became a party for scammers that can do whatever and presume that has no accountabiloty to what they said and promissed, you are talking bs, been ignorant to your own customer rights and about business legal responsibilities with the fair act... and i will say that again...
ANY BUSINESS under a United States territory. Be a Kickstarter, blog with funding campaign, services, etc., are under that law.
So, stop the nonsense or keep the ignorance. Your choice.
Is really so difficult to ask for refund to CIG? I've read that they don't put too much problem.
And all that things about sues... how many people are gonna do that in reality? Because, with all the crimes they did as some post here, there must be a lot of people eager for justice.
Is really so difficult to ask for refund to CIG? I've read that they don't put too much problem.
And all that things about sues... how many people are gonna do that in reality? Because, with all the crimes they did as some post here, there must be a lot of people eager for justice.
They put difficulties. Their default answer is No and throwing into your faces of the customer their TOS, which at this point has no value, and or they are extremely ignorant (which they are not), or they try to mislead customer about their rights, considering the situation of the state of the project, how it evolved and the deal breaks made unilaterraly by Cloud Imperium Games, for their own sake, not for the sake of the deal with the customer, which is indiviidual, and not a deal between company and a group signing together and "deciding", "by voting" if they can or cannot break the deal, or the decision ends implying to, causing that break.
People sued kickstarter already that made nothing more then 50k dollars and with people spending, nothing more than a few dollars individually. FTC and attourneys already acted to protect the customer rights. It already lead companies to bankruptcy due the penalties and the people behind have their reputation and career ruined, besides the monetary losses.
CIG made 85+ million dollars and individuals spent the money of houses and cars on promises, that continue to be sold, even after the earlier promises not accomplished.
So why would government authorities after customers complaint (which has not cost to made for the customer), would ignore such massive project when they did for projects of much less scale and dollars involved, both entirely, and from individuals?
You fail to consider too, that if an passionate individual spent thousands of dollars in virtual pixes and end disappointed, why would he care on spending a little more for a lawsuit to pursuit justice?
And you fail to consider if, the CIG Business in some form, even that not intentional or indirectly can influence an entire business model or indie business negativally, why do you think that they would let it go and watch their chances in the market destroyed because Roberts decided to dream?
Wake up people! Go back to Earth. CIG brought this to themselves.
Sure, you can sue anyone over anything but there is no substance to make a case here. The terms and relationship between developers and backers are clear here, regardless how one wants to twist it.
Backers are not investors, they are not customers. The closest they are, is donors but at the same time CIG is no charity. There is no support in law for this concept, for crowdfunding, and as it is there is no liability for collected money.
There is nothing FTC or government can do about it, unless they start telling people how they can spend their money which is very unlikely.
Besides the fact that FTC and attorneys already been acting and FTC opened an specific department to investigate crowd-funding drivings...
Besides the fact that the advertising of Cloud Imperium Games stated clearly that you are a customer...
What you people, with this kind of argument that "no specific crowd-funding law exists" fails to see, is that you indeed, got a fact, but got it backwards of what it really means.
I already told about how the things area always recharacterized when the matter is a consumer issue of a business that "sounds" different of anything else (which is barely the case, as I alrady gave many examples that this kind of business, with other names and flavors, exist for centuries).
So, it always happen. Do not make mistake. Always.
And when FTC comes and say WHAT is the right interpretation of the law, it's not opened to debate anymore, not opened to your particular interpretation. That is YOU twisting the matter, trying to slip of the law... but that won't happen.
Because? What you got backwards?
Yes... because while the characterisc of the business can be clearly put into the same type of business that I already mentioned before, and "NEVER as a donation" (unless you tell me that CIG is indeed a CHURCH), it's this exact lack of a law what makes your points totally invalid.
If you go to a court of law and state that your business is different, is not covered by the law, it will be recharacterized. Period.
You can't recharacterize this as a donation (THIS SPECIFIC CIG CASE) unless you want the judge laughing on you. You only would be able to claim that its a donation IF AND ONLY IF there is this law that does not exist, to you based yourself.
If there was a law, specific telling that crowd-funding with rewards, in the ways made by Cloud Imperium Games, is special snow-flake, THEN your argument that there is no liability could persist and be accepted.
So, the "lack of the law" made your defense truly pathetic, not the contrary as you people think. The defense has not law to back up their claims. The attourney has.
You could maybe fight in the congress to make a specific law that characterized ANY crowd-funding, no matter what is in its pitch, to be considered a donation, falling only under the donation regulation, regardless the nature of the business be just like a pre-order of something (again, like to buy an apartement yet to be build by a CC, or a service yet to be delivered/accomplished).
THEN, with that specific law this argument of "uhu, donation" would be the case. But there is no such law. Sorry.
Maybe in the Planet Vanduul there is. So, what prevails is the characteristic of the business and how it was advertised.
SPECIFIC CASE of Cloud Imperium, they promised:
- A game and the copy of the game for the "backer" (buyer) for a specific time that, all things considered, the estimate should be in an acceptable ball park, due WHO is in charge of the matter (easily proven as a very experienced and veteran member of the game industry);
- Services (a lot... like providing you to say what you want to say in their forums, as advertised as one of the advantages to pledge earlier, participating then, in the development of the game with your feedback... the ability to test an Alpha and Beta version with dates provided - NOT ESTIMATE AT THIS CASE, it was PROMISED for a date, and probalby a few others that I am missing now and would have to review their pitch... AND FURTHER OFFERS... again to remember...)
- Exclusivities (promises of exclusive access to stuff that only you, the earlier pledger would get)
- Statements like NO SUBSCRIPTION, and how it evolved to revenue, even that optional also make them deceivers.
... and the list goes on.
It is THEIR pitch what characterize what this business is. Period. And, like many different flavor of business that tried to appear to be something "differnent" using techniques like new labels... CIG is just selling stuff. Always was. End of the story.
Is really so difficult to ask for refund to CIG? I've read that they don't put too much problem.
And all that things about sues... how many people are gonna do that in reality? Because, with all the crimes they did as some post here, there must be a lot of people eager for justice.
They put. Their default answer is No and throwing into the faces of the customer their TOS, which at this point has no value, and or they are extremely ignorant (which they are not), or they try to mislead customer about their rights, beyond the situation of the state of the project, how it evolved and the deal breaks made unilaterraly by Cloud Imperium Games, for their own sake, not for the sake of the deal with the customer, which is indiviidual, and not a deal between company and a group signing together and "deciding", "by voting" if they can or cannot break the deal, or the decision ends implying to, causing that break.
People sued kickstarter already that made nothing more then 50k dollars and spent a few dollars individually. FTC and attourneys already acted.
CIG made 85+ million dollars and individuals spent the money of houses and cars on promises, that continue to be sold, even after the earlier promises not accomplished.
So why would government authorities after customers complaint (which has not cost to made for the customer), would ignore such massive project when they did for projects of much less scale and dollars involved, both entirely, and from individuals?
You fail to consider too, that if an passionate individual spent thousands of dollars in virtual pixes and end disappointed, why would he care on spending a little more for a lawsuit to pursuit justice?
And you fail to consider if, the CIG Business in some form, even that not intentional or indirectly can influence an entire business model or indie business, why do you think that they would let it go and watch their chances in the market destroyed because Roberts decided to dream?
Wake up people! Go back to Earth. CIG brought this to themselves.
As long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
Originally posted by AzothAs long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
The point still is, they did not promise to backers(or in fact to anyone, in binding manner) to finish the game...only to provide rewards which they indeed provide.
Truly moot discussion, regardless how upset, envy or w/e one is
They did not promise the backers that they would finish the game so if they don't they can just take the cash then. That does not seem right somehow. Can they really do that ?
As long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
I already explained while this argument is flawed. Read again one of my previous 3 posts if you missed. The reason behind why this logic is flawed is pretty obvious. I am surprised why don't see.
Please, don't mix the "crimes" ok.
"people run away with the money" would suffer much more penalties than someone just failing to deliver the promises, or post-ponning that with lame excuses that means a deal break.
They would put in jail at this case. Would be pursuit by FBI + Interpol efforts if leaving the country.
Originally posted by cheyaneThey did not promise the backers that they would finish the game so if they don't they can just take the cash then. That does not seem right somehow. Can they really do that ?
Sure they can, why wouldn't they? That is what Kickstarter or crowdfunding is all about - you support someone/something and possibility of failure or scam is given.
You are not buying anything on Kickstarter, thus there is no-one obliged to deliver.
As long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
I already explained while this argument is flawed. Read again one of my previous 3 posts if you missed. The reason behind why this logic is flawed is pretty obvious. I am surprised why don't see.
I am not reading thru all your bullshit. If you can't tell me why it's flawed in less then 100 words then all you say is just useless.
They did not promise the backers that they would finish the game so if they don't they can just take the cash then. That does not seem right somehow. Can they really do that ?
Sure they can, why wouldn't they? That is what Kickstarter or crowdfunding is all about - you support someone/something and possibility of failure or scam is given.
You are not buying anything on Kickstarter, thus there is no-one obliged to deliver.
Your argument was proven wrong already.
This guy is obviously talking with himself and not listening.
As long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
I already explained while this argument is flawed. Read again one of my previous 3 posts if you missed. The reason behind why this logic is flawed is pretty obvious. I am surprised why don't see.
I am not reading thru all your bullshit. If you can't tell me why it's flawed in less then 100 words then all you say is just useless.
If what you say was true, I could start a project, do not work on that and keep releasing screenshots for you... forever. I still could state that I am working in the game, forever. In the court day, I told that would deliver, but I keep failing, and keep cash grabbing more. I could say that "I am working in the game" forever. Can't you see? I could drop articles showing progress that does not exist, lies, whatever... and keep going. I just would need to make sure that I don't announce the project cancelled.
As long as I am doing revenue in a monthly basis, that in 6 months would be able to deliver the entire original pitch - by the way - I jsut can keep going, keep "scamming" people, or even, by my own incompetence, laziness, cowardly, etc., failing to deliver.
You promised something you are liable to deliver into that promise. CIG DID NOT promise just a game done. CIG promised a game, services and exclusivities.
And CIG gave a TIME to deliver into all that (and I explained about this too, the word "estimate" won't protect them anymore and I already explained about this been just one issue between a set of more)
And made statements that would deliver all that IN TIME, if earned all the money that was needed. And made even more statements to make sure that further money wouldn't cause any delay, any absurd delay, and when was the time to present issues about why the services promised would be delayed to be fullfilled, they basically used as one of the main arguments, and summarized as their main arguments, MARKETING, visibility, prospect of new customer, but using other words to explain you that (But still is the same) instead focusing into deliveirng the promises for the custmoers who already paid. It is not an "unexpected" thing that prevent a release. It's a decision, thinking about new deals, not about what they promised, which again, include time.
And, already broken some promises of exclusivities, that does not matter how many time they still work to deliver, they can't come back. It is already broken.
As long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
I already explained while this argument is flawed. Read again one of my previous 3 posts if you missed. The reason behind why this logic is flawed is pretty obvious. I am surprised why don't see.
I am not reading thru all your bullshit. If you can't tell me why it's flawed in less then 100 words then all you say is just useless.
If what you say was true, I could start a project, do not work on that and keep releasing screenshots for you... forever. I still could state that I am working in the game, forever. In the court day, I told that would deliver, but I keep failing, and keep cash grabbing more. I could say that "I am working in the game" forever. Can't you see? I could drop articles showing progress that does not exist, lies, whatever... and keep going. I just would need to make sure that I don't announce the project cancelled.
As long as I am doing revenue in a monthly basis, that in 6 months would be able to deliver the entire original pitch - by the way - I jsut can keep going, keep "scamming" people, or even, by my own incompetence, laziness, cowardly, etc., failing to deliver.
You promised something you are liable to deliver into that promise. CIG DID NOT promise just a game done. CIG promised a game, services and exclusivities.
And CIG gave a TIME to deliver into all that (and I explained about this too, the word "estimate" won't protect them anymore and I already explained about this been just one issue between a set of more)
And made statements that would deliver all that IN TIME, if earned all the money that was needed. And made even more statements to make sure that further money wouldn't cause any delay, any absurd delay, and when was the time to present issues about why the services promised would be delayed to be fullfilled, they basically used as one of the main arguments, and summarized as their main arguments, MARKETING, visibility, prospect of new customer, but using other words to explain you that (But still is the same) instead focusing into deliveirng the promises for the custmoers who already paid. It is not an "unexpected" thing that prevent a release. It's a decision, thinking about new deals, not about what they promised, which again, include time.
And, already broken some promises of exclusivities, that does not matter how many time they still work to deliver, they can't come back. It is already broken.
Way too much air in that post, you could of said all that in 2 lines. And it is also all irrelevent, the money is being spent on the game, until it's proven otherwise, there is no ground for a lawsuit.
Way too much air in that post, you could of said all that in 2 lines. And it is also all irrelevent, the money is being spent on the game, until it's proven otherwise, there is no ground for a lawsuit.
Nope. You couldn't. And there is no "air". All the statements are backed up by proof. While you make claims without nothing to backed up, except an opinion that contradicts totally the US law.
But hey. You can live in denial if that give you hope and make you feel fine on pledging more or something as more time as you prefer.
In any case, it's important to say for the people who does not live in denial and that have been buying CIG stuff since a long time ago, that they are "donating", not really for Star Citizen in the end of the day, but for the Roberts future personal investiments, a little part of that for an unfinished game that MAY BE come out in "some" form, probalby just as pathetic as Arena Commander is (may be, let's be optimistic that will take longer to FTC or anyone else acting), and the majority of your "donations" (if you keep stubborn about this non-sense) are going to the United States government.
So, you can go further and pledge for "this cause", because that is what is going to end happening, because hey, it was the backer's and CR wisdom right? "You cannot please everyone".
And the "air", backed up with all the proof necessary is basically enough to put down this business in ashes.
So, last hope, is that everyone be pleased and any competitor that sees their own business chances closing, due the CIG cash grabbing party, be ok too and ignore and be happy on losing their money, in practice, due the reflexes of all this.
Comments
When they were going through more and more stretch goals, it had the feel of stuff made up by a bunch of guys in an ad hoc meeting going 'Can anyone think up something new to add? We need another goal!'.
Never got the idea that they had actually planned out any of the technical details for all of them. Just throwing stuff on the wall and hoping they'd stick. Except now they have to try and make everything they came up with stick.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Go to their ks page. They were promising squadron 42 and the PU in November 2014. They still haven't delivered sq42 or the PU so yes promises were made on the page and they haven't materialized. Just like the lawsuit listed in the polygon article they promised rewards in 2012 and still hasn't delivered anything they promised by 2013.
The article was about missed delivery dates of rewards, only thing that CIG is obliged to deliver.
So again:
What rewards weren't supposedly delivered? Where did CIG promised any delivery dates?
It's late. Of course it's late. Anyone who thought it was going to be produced on time was extremely credulous. Be they detractors or fans.
Hell, it's in the second line about inevitability, after Death and Taxes. 'Chris Roberts games will always be really, really late.' You don't sue tortoises for not making bunny runs.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
After all that, he still doesn't get it.
Some of us are born to create, build and manage, others are born to just play with things. To those I say, go find something to play with until next Xmas.
I'll say it again. Goto SC kickstarter page. Now see under all of the pledges where it says estimated delivery date? It says Nov 2014. That's where they promised a delivery date. If you want to see what they should have delivered read any of the pledges.
Do you understand what "estimated" means...?
As far as I am aware, people did get their playable ships in AC module, alpha access, credits and alike.
So I assume you are just letting your mouth run wild...
People CANNOT treat Kickstarter or crowfunding generically as those claiming no need of accoutnability are doing.
While some crowdfundings can be considered as a donation, others do not.
If a crowdfunding asks money to make a movie, without giving you anything in return, delivery date, nothing, and, important to say, they do not omit that, meaning, they clearly state that are going to release when they want, than they are not accountable for... EXCEPT... if they announce the project cancelled.
Even donations are regulated. You can presume that can ask donations to help children and be got spending the money on whores. The penalties here wouldn't be just monetaries. So. that would be a lot worst for the perpetrator.
If the movie offer you a copy of the movie, its a sale. Period. Just like you buy a house yet to be build. Or buy for as service, yet to be completed (as promised). If you put your car to wash and the guy do not deliver clean in an acceptable time frame and keep saying that it's taking longer because he is adding more quimicals to clean better, the validity of what he said is ZERO. It's just a excuse. Have you asked for that, even if it was for free? Nope. So, he is committed to deliver what he promised in the time promised. The nature of the business, in different flavors, are ALL the same.
Accountability will depend of the pitch, the advertising made by the responsible for the project.
If he gives you an estimate, he is accountable for it.
Estimate cannot just be whatever non sense date. If the guy behind the movie is a PRO, and claimed that will make the movie, of a certain size, that will take 2 years, while, the standard for the industry is that for movies of such size would take at least 7 years to make, a commom sense between professionals of the area,
it can be assumed that who is behind this new project could be already advanced in the filming (remember that advanced gameplay that CR shown?), could have new tech to make it faster, etc (remember his ptich saying that and talking about CE, etc?).
Customers are not pros, so, if they hear a pro saying that he can, they can presume that he can.
But if in practice, is demonstrated along the project that the movie maker will take just that standard of 7 years anyway, or more, he couldn't simply say that made a mistake. He is a pro.
No judge, jury, whatever, would accept that he deviate fro 2 years to 7. People are thinking that judges are idiots. LoL
The estimate then, becomes, a bait and switch, used to mislead the customer. BUT that, ALONE, couldn't be rich enough to back up a claim of deceptive marketing/false advertising. You need more elements to ADD to it.
If you check the complaints openes already by FTC against crowdfunding, or lawsuits opened by attourneys in certain states of US, you will see that they use the estimate missed, as ONE element, that ADDED to OTHERS make their claim a win cause.
And THAT is the case of what happened with Cloud Imperium Games. They not JUST mislead customers in that estimate, but also in their entire pitch and offfers of exclusivities and services. And kept doing that MONTHS, YEARS later after the original pitch. So... against CIG, is the biggest easy cake EVER, for any half-brain attourney.
So, people are saying, "oh but there's no law"... but actually there is. Its called recharacterization. If was necessary to write a law for each new "flavor", or twisted business that actually ends to be just like others that are in place for centuries, that would be a nightmare and the con men would be walking free without fear of breaking any law.
YES! They still walk free, BUT, only because people do not pursuit their rights, in general, for a variety of reasons. But if it's pursuit and the evidences are STRONG (as is the case of CIG), it's a certain win cause.
If the guy was right, to escape from accountability, stores would start to label "pledge". Constructions company selling apartments yet in the piece of paper, would call "pledge" or to make my point... "bananas".
"Please, if you banana here, you will get this in 5 days".
The customer go back later and the salesman say "dont care, you are not a customer, you did not purchase, you bananazed only"
In the court of law a jduge would say... "oh he is right, that was not a sale, that was banana,".
The court of law won't look for labels. They will see the "nature" of the business. And crowd-funding with rewards is CLEARLY a sale, no matter how many times fanboys or CR or Molineux or even Kickstarter/Indiegogo, personal blogs, tried to twist his meaning for your own sake. Actually, if they tried to do that and keep trying to pretend, they are considered as acting in bad faith. Customers can be ignorant. Companies do not. They have legal responsibilites and must know that. If they do not know them, ignore them, or twist them... good luck to them. They are putting their asses on line to be a easy cake in any lawsuit. And that's why FTC says: "The law is to protect both customers and companies", because sometimes, the company "made a mistake", but it does not matter, because they have the LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY of do not make such mistake, and even that a customer comes with "evil wishes" or "to take advantage", they, the company BROUGHT THAT to themselves.
That's why companies have the LEGAL responsibility of not doing deceptive marketing. It does not matter if theres is good faith or not, did by ignorance, etc. FTC does not care. The Law, THIS LAW, does not care.
If we have been talking about a MURDER, the motives and others stuff, intention, could be evaluated. But that IS NOT the case of marketing and advertising laws. If that was the case, would be impossible to get any company, because you never could get that footage of the guy saying "oh, here I am going to make a bait-and-switch to get more money". It's impossible. And that's why the law does not care with "intention" and made clear, that is the legal responsilibity of the BUSINESS to do not make deceptive marketing, FOR HIS OWN SAKE and for the sake of the customers too.
Also, crowd funding cannot be generalized as just "pledging to get a final product", when its the case.
Its not "generic" at all. It has some generic guidelines, but, in the end, it depends of each pitch,
it depends of what the owner of the campaign describes, and promisse, and, he can't omit information too. The lack of a statement that they can suffer delays AND an idea of the possible size of the delay, is also, deceptive marketing. Because its common sense, for example, that a delay have a ball park. You cannot characterize "estimate" made by a PRO and then that escape 4 years, when the standard of the industry is no more than 1. It's pretty much ridiculous people! Please, don't be ridiculous! Judges are not idiots. And attourneys know how to build an argument, that when backed up by entities who oversees and regulate, cannot be defended. Whatever you say, can't change the law and how is interpreted BY THE REGULATOR!
Again, it goes back to "who is doing the pitch too... a nobody that could make a mistake of a newbie, or a pro".
A pitch can also promisse services, not just the final product. Failing to deliver those services, ends to be, deception, again. If they promise exclusivities for backers and then remove that, deception again.
Cloud Imperium Games, failed to deliver his game to backers according with their pitch. Saying that "is still making it" depends. If someone started now a lawsuit against CIG, they can produce a set of evidences that could show that CIG can keep saying that are going to produce the game, basically forever. CIG made sure to give all the proves for this kind of argument, by adding more things to the game, by failing to deliver in both short-term and long-term estimates and stating that "is worried with people that are looking to them" and so on. Thank you "open development" and thank you CR by your televangelist double-edge sword speech, would say any attourney.
CIG also failed to deliver the services promised. Also removed the promised exclusivities for backers. And as continued his funding campaign, deceptively classifying that as funding, was deceptive again, because announced the game as fully funded years earlier and kept calling funding. Funding what is already fully funded and was publicly announced as fully funded. Meh!
CIG history has a true epic of deceptive marketing. Its really big. Its in the blood of the company basically. Do not make mistake. They still will continue to feed many people with more proof. Each new week, they make more bs.
Fans, from the beginning kept spreading misinformation about accountability in the hope of minimize the number of people criticizing or demanding. It was their argument to say to people that they are not entitled and that "their gods" could do whatever they want, and change, or break promisses or expand as please them. Just that. That's why you see many of them repeating them like have read in a bible or from a preach.
That is a falacy. People who really bought this, are been mislead, at this case, more by the speech of the fans, than cig itself.
TL;DR: it depends of the pitch. The description of a ks or any other funding platform or personal blog in the internet or whatever other platform will state what the business is about, if just an offer of a final product, sending you the copy, or if it includes additional services or exclusivities offered.
I am going to give you people, an example of another game, called Elite Dangerous. You could say that they "are safe" because they released the game. Nope. They are not... (check my next post)
I'm well aware of what estimated means. Perhaps you should re-read the articles I linked where they specifically say the estimated delivery date was in 2012 but they were still being sued for not delivering on their promises.
Have people received the complete game yet? If they have it would be news to me especially since the pledges say the finished game.
Reading comprehension goes a long way in ensuring you don't stick your foot in your mouth.
Damn tablet.. lemme continue... ED promised/advertised a offline mode and cancelled or were pretty vague if one day can be done.
While they, later, started to give refunds to everyone, they were got saying that wouldn't.
That was mislead customers about their actual rights. The company put themselves in such position. Arguments like "people want to take advantage of getting the money and buying cheaper later" are empty... Remember? They have the legal responsibility exactly to protect them from evil customers too. They brought this to themselves. And while so far it had only trust repercutions, they could suffer legal repercutions too.
At the same case that they sold lifetime expansion packs. If they never release any paid expansion, or that in sum of the price ticket, do not pass of that "promotional" price, backers who bought them can go against them, or an insttution like FTC (from UK I don't know its name) could, or local attourneys, depending of the number of complaints, calling their attention. Do not make mistake. These kind of law is pretty standard in all the countries.
So... there is no such urban legend that cig fanboys (and of other crowdfunded projects) spread. Their arguments do not hold in any court of law of any country, where the rules of marketing and advertisisng are almost like a copy and paste of each other with a few variations jsut to be MORE restrictive in some, not less.
In the case of US, ANY business...ANY.., and i say one more time...ANY Business, no matter if you call bananas or pledges or funding, are under the regulation of the us marketing and advertising laws, more specifically to the case, the Fair Act which states about deceptive markeing and false advertising.
Period. Its not even opened to discussion in US.
FTC who regulates the matter made sure to put a rest in such possibility, of different interpretations of the law. Yes. People keept talking "oh, but a lawyer could have different interpretations" this or that. YES, many cases of laws have this issue. NOT the Fair Act, because FTC came in public and stated what the interpretation MUST to be. So, it's the end of any possibility to discuss that the law could be ambiguous.
Unless anyone show me that his interpretation oversees the interpretation of the Federal Trade Comission, they are just talking non-sense.
Unless someone show me that FTC in some point, lost his power of oversees and regulates the matter, and now the world became a party for scammers that can do whatever and presume that has no accountabiloty to what they said and promissed, you are talking bs, been ignorant to your own customer rights and about business legal responsibilities with the fair act... and i will say that again...
ANY BUSINESS under a United States territory. Be a Kickstarter, blog with funding campaign, services, etc., are under that law.
So, stop the nonsense or keep the ignorance. Your choice.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen
"You as the customer "
says CIG.
I put that just to show that the argumenst of this guy (and other fans) is a non-sense spread by fans, not even by Cloud Imperium Games.
wow, long thread O.O
Is really so difficult to ask for refund to CIG? I've read that they don't put too much problem.
And all that things about sues... how many people are gonna do that in reality? Because, with all the crimes they did as some post here, there must be a lot of people eager for justice.
They put difficulties. Their default answer is No and throwing into your faces of the customer their TOS, which at this point has no value, and or they are extremely ignorant (which they are not), or they try to mislead customer about their rights, considering the situation of the state of the project, how it evolved and the deal breaks made unilaterraly by Cloud Imperium Games, for their own sake, not for the sake of the deal with the customer, which is indiviidual, and not a deal between company and a group signing together and "deciding", "by voting" if they can or cannot break the deal, or the decision ends implying to, causing that break.
People sued kickstarter already that made nothing more then 50k dollars and with people spending, nothing more than a few dollars individually. FTC and attourneys already acted to protect the customer rights. It already lead companies to bankruptcy due the penalties and the people behind have their reputation and career ruined, besides the monetary losses.
CIG made 85+ million dollars and individuals spent the money of houses and cars on promises, that continue to be sold, even after the earlier promises not accomplished.
So why would government authorities after customers complaint (which has not cost to made for the customer), would ignore such massive project when they did for projects of much less scale and dollars involved, both entirely, and from individuals?
You fail to consider too, that if an passionate individual spent thousands of dollars in virtual pixes and end disappointed, why would he care on spending a little more for a lawsuit to pursuit justice?
And you fail to consider if, the CIG Business in some form, even that not intentional or indirectly can influence an entire business model or indie business negativally, why do you think that they would let it go and watch their chances in the market destroyed because Roberts decided to dream?
Wake up people! Go back to Earth. CIG brought this to themselves.
Besides the fact that FTC and attorneys already been acting and FTC opened an specific department to investigate crowd-funding drivings...
Besides the fact that the advertising of Cloud Imperium Games stated clearly that you are a customer...
What you people, with this kind of argument that "no specific crowd-funding law exists" fails to see, is that you indeed, got a fact, but got it backwards of what it really means.
I already told about how the things area always recharacterized when the matter is a consumer issue of a business that "sounds" different of anything else (which is barely the case, as I alrady gave many examples that this kind of business, with other names and flavors, exist for centuries).
So, it always happen. Do not make mistake. Always.
And when FTC comes and say WHAT is the right interpretation of the law, it's not opened to debate anymore, not opened to your particular interpretation. That is YOU twisting the matter, trying to slip of the law... but that won't happen.
Because? What you got backwards?
Yes... because while the characterisc of the business can be clearly put into the same type of business that I already mentioned before, and "NEVER as a donation" (unless you tell me that CIG is indeed a CHURCH), it's this exact lack of a law what makes your points totally invalid.
If you go to a court of law and state that your business is different, is not covered by the law, it will be recharacterized. Period.
You can't recharacterize this as a donation (THIS SPECIFIC CIG CASE) unless you want the judge laughing on you. You only would be able to claim that its a donation IF AND ONLY IF there is this law that does not exist, to you based yourself.
If there was a law, specific telling that crowd-funding with rewards, in the ways made by Cloud Imperium Games, is special snow-flake, THEN your argument that there is no liability could persist and be accepted.
So, the "lack of the law" made your defense truly pathetic, not the contrary as you people think. The defense has not law to back up their claims. The attourney has.
You could maybe fight in the congress to make a specific law that characterized ANY crowd-funding, no matter what is in its pitch, to be considered a donation, falling only under the donation regulation, regardless the nature of the business be just like a pre-order of something (again, like to buy an apartement yet to be build by a CC, or a service yet to be delivered/accomplished).
THEN, with that specific law this argument of "uhu, donation" would be the case. But there is no such law. Sorry.
Maybe in the Planet Vanduul there is. So, what prevails is the characteristic of the business and how it was advertised.
SPECIFIC CASE of Cloud Imperium, they promised:
- A game and the copy of the game for the "backer" (buyer) for a specific time that, all things considered, the estimate should be in an acceptable ball park, due WHO is in charge of the matter (easily proven as a very experienced and veteran member of the game industry);
- Services (a lot... like providing you to say what you want to say in their forums, as advertised as one of the advantages to pledge earlier, participating then, in the development of the game with your feedback... the ability to test an Alpha and Beta version with dates provided - NOT ESTIMATE AT THIS CASE, it was PROMISED for a date, and probalby a few others that I am missing now and would have to review their pitch... AND FURTHER OFFERS... again to remember...)
- Exclusivities (promises of exclusive access to stuff that only you, the earlier pledger would get)
- Statements like NO SUBSCRIPTION, and how it evolved to revenue, even that optional also make them deceivers.
... and the list goes on.
It is THEIR pitch what characterize what this business is. Period. And, like many different flavor of business that tried to appear to be something "differnent" using techniques like new labels... CIG is just selling stuff. Always was. End of the story.
As long as they work on the game, no lawsuit would stand. You can only go after people that run away with the money, without delivering what was promised.
The point still is, they did not promise to backers(or in fact to anyone, in binding manner) to finish the game...only to provide rewards which they indeed provide.
Truly moot discussion, regardless how upset, envy or w/e one is
I already explained while this argument is flawed. Read again one of my previous 3 posts if you missed. The reason behind why this logic is flawed is pretty obvious. I am surprised why don't see.
Please, don't mix the "crimes" ok.
"people run away with the money" would suffer much more penalties than someone just failing to deliver the promises, or post-ponning that with lame excuses that means a deal break.
They would put in jail at this case. Would be pursuit by FBI + Interpol efforts if leaving the country.
Sure they can, why wouldn't they? That is what Kickstarter or crowdfunding is all about - you support someone/something and possibility of failure or scam is given.
You are not buying anything on Kickstarter, thus there is no-one obliged to deliver.
I am not reading thru all your bullshit. If you can't tell me why it's flawed in less then 100 words then all you say is just useless.
Your argument was proven wrong already.
This guy is obviously talking with himself and not listening.
If what you say was true, I could start a project, do not work on that and keep releasing screenshots for you... forever. I still could state that I am working in the game, forever. In the court day, I told that would deliver, but I keep failing, and keep cash grabbing more. I could say that "I am working in the game" forever. Can't you see? I could drop articles showing progress that does not exist, lies, whatever... and keep going. I just would need to make sure that I don't announce the project cancelled.
As long as I am doing revenue in a monthly basis, that in 6 months would be able to deliver the entire original pitch - by the way - I jsut can keep going, keep "scamming" people, or even, by my own incompetence, laziness, cowardly, etc., failing to deliver.
You promised something you are liable to deliver into that promise. CIG DID NOT promise just a game done. CIG promised a game, services and exclusivities.
And CIG gave a TIME to deliver into all that (and I explained about this too, the word "estimate" won't protect them anymore and I already explained about this been just one issue between a set of more)
And made statements that would deliver all that IN TIME, if earned all the money that was needed. And made even more statements to make sure that further money wouldn't cause any delay, any absurd delay, and when was the time to present issues about why the services promised would be delayed to be fullfilled, they basically used as one of the main arguments, and summarized as their main arguments, MARKETING, visibility, prospect of new customer, but using other words to explain you that (But still is the same) instead focusing into deliveirng the promises for the custmoers who already paid. It is not an "unexpected" thing that prevent a release. It's a decision, thinking about new deals, not about what they promised, which again, include time.
And, already broken some promises of exclusivities, that does not matter how many time they still work to deliver, they can't come back. It is already broken.
Way too much air in that post, you could of said all that in 2 lines. And it is also all irrelevent, the money is being spent on the game, until it's proven otherwise, there is no ground for a lawsuit.
Nope. You couldn't. And there is no "air". All the statements are backed up by proof. While you make claims without nothing to backed up, except an opinion that contradicts totally the US law.
But hey. You can live in denial if that give you hope and make you feel fine on pledging more or something as more time as you prefer.
In any case, it's important to say for the people who does not live in denial and that have been buying CIG stuff since a long time ago, that they are "donating", not really for Star Citizen in the end of the day, but for the Roberts future personal investiments, a little part of that for an unfinished game that MAY BE come out in "some" form, probalby just as pathetic as Arena Commander is (may be, let's be optimistic that will take longer to FTC or anyone else acting), and the majority of your "donations" (if you keep stubborn about this non-sense) are going to the United States government.
So, you can go further and pledge for "this cause", because that is what is going to end happening, because hey, it was the backer's and CR wisdom right? "You cannot please everyone".
And the "air", backed up with all the proof necessary is basically enough to put down this business in ashes.
So, last hope, is that everyone be pleased and any competitor that sees their own business chances closing, due the CIG cash grabbing party, be ok too and ignore and be happy on losing their money, in practice, due the reflexes of all this.
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