Is the game economy already "live"?

Adjuvant1

No one seems to be able to answer if there will or will not be a server wipe, after this testing period, prior to "live persistent universe". This elicits obvious economy issues, but one immediately comes to mind, "Does this mean the game economy is already live?".

Star Citizen has two types of currency. One type, UEC is bought with cash or gifted, or can also be the result of "melts", wherein a ship or entire game package is reduced to this currency. The other type of currency is REC, earned in game performing various activities, and can be spend in the website store for ship pieces and other in-game goodies. So, we have to figure that UEC, of course, isn't going to be wiped, but what of REC?

Let's set that aside for a minute.

It's been discussed, in the PU, developers will incorporate an in-game store, wherein people will be able to buy ships. Do they pay for these ship in UEC or REC? Regardless of the method, do they keep these ships "forever", or will they be lost upon a server wipe?

If there is not server wipe, then the economy for the game is "live", forever (forever ever?), once that store "opens". If there is a wipe, participants will lose all the UEC spent in the store, and that leads to the next question, once "persistence begins" (if it has not already) do people lose all this REC they've been accruing? Do they get to keep the stuff, like ship parts etc., they bought with REC?

It seems the most obvious answer is to have a server wipe, delete all REC, all items bought with REC, but what happens to all the stuff (ships, guns, outfits) bought with UEC?

What's the volume of UEC already in circulation, effectively "in game gold bought with cash"? How will players appropriate the "value" of 100,000 UEC or a billion UEC if there are already "billions in circulation"?

Are the developers about to destroy this game's economy before it even launches?

Talonsin

I have no source but I was assuming that the PU was just a testing environment and when the game went live we would be playing in a brand new environment (server wipe) with all the fancy toys the whales have purchased.

My more pressing concern is the pay 2 win aspect.  People have shelled out significant money with the hope they will dominate others with their big bad monster ships.  Either these ships will suck and they will be mad causing the whales to leave or they will dominate causing the non-whales to leave.  Sadly all we can do at this point is sit back and hope we get the game we always wanted. 

Rusque

I didn't know they were this far along, I thought the PU was a long way from done.

Erillion

According to Chris Roberts there will be multiple wipes up to late Beta.

Currently they are planning another wipe at the end of Beta, but they consider keeping it unwiped one or two months before launch as a thank you for all the testers.

So - to answer you question: No. The game economy is not "live" yet.


Have fun

Adjuvant1

Rusque said:

I didn't know they were this far along, I thought the PU was a long way from done.

It is a long way from being done. There is one of one hundred systems, and it's debatable if that's a complete system or partial. There are not yet planetary landings. There are not yet alien races, languages, or fitting, customized ai for fps (at all) or ships (other than a few mob pirates). There is not yet cargo or other exchange items. There are not yet roles as jobs, engineer, fuel distributor, botanist, scientist, etc etc.

There is one zone, recently made smaller, there are a handful of quests and some amount of physics and game mechanics which couldn't yet hope to be balanced because of the amount left to add.

heerobya

Wait, mentioned "game" when referencing Star Citizen... I'm confused. 

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

According to Chris Roberts there will be multiple wipes up to late Beta.

Currently they are planning another wipe at the end of Beta, but they consider keeping it unwiped one or two months before launch as a thank you for all the testers.

So - to answer you question: No. The game economy is not "live" yet.


Have fun

According to Chris Roberts, "Alot of this, that, things and stuff". I guess, let's see this reference, please.

Doesn't answer the rest of the questions I asked, but it's a start.

Adjuvant1

heerobya said:

Wait, mentioned "game" when referencing Star Citizen... I'm confused. 

It's a "game in development". The stage of this, it's currently in, isn't a game, unless you like restarting every time you open the application and doing the same damn missions over and over and over and over and over and over, and call that "a game".

edit: Like a mmo platformer or some shit.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

Erillion said:

According to Chris Roberts there will be multiple wipes up to late Beta.

Currently they are planning another wipe at the end of Beta, but they consider keeping it unwiped one or two months before launch as a thank you for all the testers.

So - to answer you question: No. The game economy is not "live" yet.


Have fun

According to Chris Roberts, "Alot of this, that, things and stuff". I guess, let's see this reference, please.

Doesn't answer the rest of the questions I asked, but it's a start.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/103629/ten-for-the-chairman-transcripts/p1

"Question 2 - Alphastrike

Will there be server wipes during alpha/beta? I’m very much looking forward to helping flush out bugs during alpha/beta but wondering if any of our work will carry over into the PU if there will be a clean wipe before release?

Answer 2 - Chris Roberts

That's a good question. We don't really have a specific stance on this at the moment.
My guess is probably we would reset everybody when the game goes properly live. It's sort of hard to say because I think when we go into like beta for the actual game that the backers will have, but not for the full public yet, we probably wouldn't wipe that late stage stuff. But certainly some of the early stuff like dogfighting module, planet-side module all that.
You'll definitely be able to earn some money from winning some fights and doing stuff, and that will be money that will allow you to buy some weapons, but it will be for that dogfighting test area. It won't be money that will carry through to the persistent universe.
So I guess the answer is there's going to be a combination of this, so there will be wipes of some of the stuff but not all of the stuff. As you get close to the final release, maybe some of the stuff you've done will carry over."

As for the rest of your questions: 

REC question i already answered.

UEC questions --> UEC stays throughout wipes. It will not be wiped. Thats why you find UEC in all the pledge packages. This was known since Kickstarter campaign in October 2012.

It does not matter if there are altogether "billions of UEC" in circulation. Only a tiny tiny part of that is in a single players wallet. The very largest pledge package (Completionist) includes "Starting Money: 20,000 UEC". The  smallest pledge package (Aurora Starter) has "Starting Money: 1,000 UEC". A single standard small ship weapon costs a few thousand UEC.  A ship will cost much more than that. Pray tell, where is "the developers are about to destroy this game's economy" aspect in that ?  ;-)


Have fun

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

It's a "game in development". The stage of this, it's currently in, isn't a game, unless you like restarting every time you open the application and doing the same damn missions over and over and over and over and over and over, and call that "a game".

edit: Like a mmo platformer or some shit.

Or like a ... you know  .... test environment ;-)

For ... you know ... playtesting.

And restarting ... that almost sounds like ... you know ... wipes. As in ... "economy is not live yet" wipes.


No, its not a complete game yet. Its a non-feature complete Alpha 2.2.3 test build of a small area to test game mechanics.


Have fun

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

So I guess the answer is there's going to be a combination of this, so there will be wipes of some of the stuff but not all of the stuff. As you get close to the final release, maybe some of the stuff you've done will carry over."

That's not really an answer. So "some stuff" will be wiped, other stuff won't be wiped, REC might be wiped, stuff you got with REC might not be wiped, all of this is subject to change, and he can make up his mind as the wind blows. Great.

Erillion said:

UEC questions --> UEC stays throughout wipes. It will not be wiped. Thats why you find UEC in all the pledge packages. This was known since Kickstarter campaign in October 2012.

It does not matter if there are altogether "billions of UEC" in circulation. Only a tiny tiny part of that is in a single players wallet. The very largest pledge package (Completionist) includes "Starting Money: 20,000 UEC". The  smallest pledge package (Aurora Starter) has "Starting Money: 1,000 UEC". A single standard small ship weapon costs a few thousand UEC.  A ship will cost much more than that. Pray tell, where is "the developers are about to destroy this game's economy" aspect in that ?  ;-)

Well, if you think for 2 seconds, if UEC is used in game, then people are...
A. Buying in-game currency for RL money already, have been, and you have no idea how much has been bought, because you can buy little stacks of UEC without any other package or melt.
B. Melting anything yields UEC, so buying anything and having melted it before they put the "brakes on" in December with tokens means...
C. People have already been accruing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of UEC in personal wallets for 3 years (prior to December) so there is already that amount of in-game currency in "circulation" and I bet that isn't going to get wiped.
D. This isn't to mention the semi-professional practices of people "melting for others" with their "grandfathered original back melting abilities", who kept the change for hundreds of transactions, effectively minting UEC.

Therefore, if you meet Joe Trader in System XYZ to trade your harvested space weed (yes that's a thing) for UEC, how the hell are you going to figure if it's worth 500UEC or 50 million? You can't. There's already inflation, every time someone buys anything from the website store, and later in the "live PU", every time someone gets paid for a mission or loots an alien.

Hatefull

Instead of starting threads like this, why don't you just send a message to @Erillion ?  You know he lives to post patch notes, he digest the minutiae of every thing that comes out of CIG and has every reference to everything he say's I suspect waiting on a clipboard.  Yet you want to ask him to reference this and that.  Totally asinine.

I would be honestly surprised is he does not have the likeness of Chris Roberts tattoo'd somewhere  on his body.  I suspect right over his heart.  At least a CIG emblem.

The tattoo thing is in jest, but in all seriousness this thread is just pointless. 

Adjuvant1

Hatefull said:

Instead of starting threads like this, why don't you just send a message to @Erillion ?  You know he lives to post patch notes, he digest the minutiae of every thing that comes out of CIG...

So do I. I wouldn't be asking it if he had a real answer. I'm conversing with him, giving his responses attention, in the chance it will elicit revelation. Really, anyone who reads his pasta Roberts response realizes the statements hold about as much weight as trying to argue against the project's ToS, basically, "we might, we don't have to, we could do what we want, you might get nothing".  I mean, it's no answer. It's a load of double-speak.

edit: And it's not pointless. Thanks for your opinion, though.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

 People have already been accruing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of UEC in personal wallets for 3 years (prior to December) so there is already that amount of in-game currency in "circulation" and I bet that isn't going to get wiped.

Millions of UEC .... ohhh......scary ..... You COULD sometimes read the official FAQ's for a change ....

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/faq/united-earth-credits

"Are there limits to the amount of UEC I can obtain or stockpile?

In order to regulate the economy, the Central Core Bank has imposed restrictions on acquiring and stockpiling UEC. Each account can obtain a maximum of 25,000 UEC per 24 hour period, and can hold a maximum of 150,000 UEC on account in your ledger at any time. Buying items with UEC does reduce your ledger balance, and does not count towards the maximum UEC cap. These restrictions may be modified at the order of the CCB in the future when additional gameplay options become available."

Yeah sure, you COULD have stockpiled a few thousand "Apocalypse Arms Ballistic Gatling Guns "Revenant" " for 18.000 UEC each in your stockpile over the last 3 years.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/voyager-direct/Apoc-Ballistic-Gatlings/Revenant

What use there is to stockpile BASIC civilian modules i cannot fathom .... when a short while after launch everyone will aim for high end stuff, possibly gained as mission rewards or through getting reputation with a faction  (say ... getting sweet high end military grade navy surplus weapons instead of the basic civilian stuff because you did some "unofficial" off-the-records work for them).

But hey, if you want to stockpile a lot of the equivalent of WoW common quality swords ... be my guest..... its like the old SWG weaponsmiths trying to sell their Jedi-grinding quality basic gun crates. No one was interested :-) In SWG you could have a high end custom made beauty, crafted with the rarest resources and the rarest templates, crafted by an artisan using the best crafting stations and crafting gear.

Have fun

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

In order to regulate the economy, the Central Core Bank has imposed restrictions on acquiring and stockpiling UEC. Each account can obtain a maximum of 25,000 UEC per 24 hour period, and can hold a maximum of 150,000 UEC on account in your ledger at any time.

Erillion said:

Each account can obtain...

Erillion said:

...account...

Do you realize how many thousands of people have multiple accounts. That's the first thing meta-gamers, family gamers, or just people who think they're clever, do. There's no limit to how many "accounts" one, or one group, can own.

I think maybe you don't realize.

edit: This isn't to mention the gray market ship sales and gifting. A given ship can change hands of multiple accounts, and be sold for RL cash. This is considered a legitimate transaction, and CIG has created the environment for it to happen, while they look the other way.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

Do you realize how many thousands of people have multiple accounts.

*** gasp ***

Multiple accounts.  WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ?! What a novel idea.

Lemme buy a few other accounts and collect a few more 150.000 UEC which i then can pool after the game has launched (but not before) and buy a...

**** drumroll ****

badass Aurora class starter ship (because we know that ships will be significantly more expensive than guns ... with the currently most expensive civilian gun being 18000 UEC). Which then means I will LORD it over my fellow peons with my badass Aurora ..... or NOT  ;-)

And ... yes... the gray market .... i COULD get more ships there ....

or I could spend nothing and get it all in game once the game has launched (thats the way i do it). You know ... i can only fly one ship at the same time. Or someone could get another pledge package with multiple ships. Or stand-alone ships.

In the meantime i can temporarily try out available ships basically for free in the sim pod through REC currency (of which i have half a million or so lying around somewhere, which means i could basically play anything available from now until launch day). Or grab for free all the various ships available in the Crusader testing environment. And wreck them. And get another one for free a minute after that.


Have fun

Adjuvant1

Totally missing the point, and I think maybe you're intentionally diminishing the issue.

You have not refuted the "RL cash for in-game currency" game economy does already exist, that inflation is occurring, and thus the game's economy is "live" and being destroyed in the process.

edit: grammar.

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

And ... yes... the gray market .... i COULD get more ships there ....

Hey, let's talk about getting more ships, too, while you're here. Let's buy up x amount of limited availability ships, as Idris M/P, Vanduul Scythe, Constellation Phoenix, 890 Jump or Javelin (or I guess count M50 or 350R), maybe 100 of them, and turn them around for RL cash at a profit. Now you have fake economy to real economy transaction, unregulated and untaxed. Neat, huh.

rhan101277

This game is taking a long time to come along.  They have millions upon millions of dollars and lots of developers, it needs to get going.  The "release date" on MMORPG.com is 2016, not sure if that is an upcoming April fools joke or what.

GrumpyHobbit

To all the haters, make up your minds!!!

There is either nothing there at all except JPEG's or there is a game in one of the various development stages normal to any game development cycle ranging from concept to full release with Alpha's and Beta's somewhere in the mix. 

Please agree between yourselves, stop flip flopping and let us know when you have decided. 

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

Erillion said:

And ... yes... the gray market .... i COULD get more ships there ....

Hey, let's talk about getting more ships, too, while you're here. Let's buy up x amount of limited availability ships, as Idris M/P, Vanduul Scythe, Constellation Phoenix, 890 Jump or Javelin (or I guess count M50 or 350R), maybe 100 of them, and turn them around for RL cash at a profit. Now you have fake economy to real economy transaction, unregulated and untaxed. Neat, huh.

Yes ... we all know how well THAT has turned out recently for the grey marketeers ;-)  as CIG has re-offered "limited availability" ships ....

And the "RL cash for in-game currency"  ... that is known (and accepted) since Star Citizen Kickstarter in October 2012 (link see below, and there are limitations, of which you are well aware but - as usual - do not mention --> see UEC FAQ, link in thread above)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

(Scrolll down all the way, Question: "Is SC free to play?" --> "Some in-game items may be available as microtransactions, but we will NEVER sell anything that can’t be acquired through honest (and fun!) gameplay."


Have fun

Adjuvant1

Yeh, GrumpyHobbit, bump the thread a couple more times, even though I can't see your words, because I have you on ignore, because you rarely reply to thread subject, but attack the participants. You're not bothering me anymore, dood.

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

(Scrolll down all the way, Question: "Is SC free to play?" --> "Some in-game items may be available as microtransactions, but we will NEVER sell anything that can’t be acquired through honest (and fun!) gameplay."


Have fun

That's the argument against P2W, silly rabbit, not cash for currency, for a developing game's economy, which will not release for years.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

Yeh, GrumpyHobbit, bump the thread a couple more times, even though I can't see your words, because I have you on ignore, because you rarely reply to thread subject, but attack the participants. You're not bothering me anymore, dood.

Well, its not like you post these threads because you really want an answer ;-)

Its all just part of the agitprop campaign ....

A bit obvious IMHO ...


Have fun

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

Well, its not like you post these threads because you really want an answer ;-)

Its all just part of the agitprop campaign ....

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the, "You have not refuted the "RL cash for in-game currency" game economy does already exist, that inflation is occurring, and thus the game's economy is "live" and being destroyed in the process."

Hatefull

Erillion said:

Adjuvant1 said:

Yeh, GrumpyHobbit, bump the thread a couple more times, even though I can't see your words, because I have you on ignore, because you rarely reply to thread subject, but attack the participants. You're not bothering me anymore, dood.

Well, its not like you post these threads because you really want an answer ;-)

Its all just part of the agitprop campaign ....

A bit obvious IMHO ...


Have fun

BOOM! Headshot!  Going back to what I originally said about this thread, pointless.  All of this information is out there and not even hard to find.  I am back and forth on this game on like a daily basis because there is so much information available.