But what if:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
High Expectations, but what about rummors of heavy p2w?
Andel_Skaar
Member UncommonPosts: 401
in Star Citizen
Will this game be only a battle between rich whales like it happened in Trion's Archeage, or will there be any measures to prevent sources of grief that is starting now even before the game actually released?
There are numerous statements either attacking or defending the way RSI is getting funds from and im caught up in between.
Yes its clear that convenience means that ALL items available ingame at some point you will be able to acquire ingame.
>Reasonably ships that cost hundreds, thousands of $ get such ingame grind window, that it goes beyond means of most players to complete even in years, thus that chance equals p2w.
No one in their right mind will have goals so high ,nor time to grind non-stop for years simply becouse a 10 000 $ ship exist, and they will eventually break and cash out thus proving the p2w.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>The game competitiveness and pvp become based solely on edge money provides you becouse otherwise you are exiled from 99% of the content for bullies are able to keep you handicapped forever.
Im pretty sure everyone knows how it looks when you are prevented from doing quests and chores becouse that one player kills everyone in the area with a single attack type of difference.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>Becouse of the lack of realistic options for single payment players, once they realise they will never ever caught up to top ~20% of the players
most of them leave and the universe becomes half-empty shell.
(This could actually stimulate whales to spend even more money for they will be surrounded by similar spending class of players.But they might overburn since there simply isnt that many players and servers would turn empty.)
Solution:Allow separate servers for heavy investors and separate for casual players?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>There are also rummors of add-ons, zones, items only available by additional payments, instead of it being part of single purchase like most mmo's did untill now, aka restrictions to base game pack content.
The total amount of money needed for this type of gameplay would measure in hundreds of dollars over the years or more, and while its not much when spread, its still far higher price than any title in existance thus far.
So, my question is, how will these, already logically apparent and serious problems be adressed on time and prevent universe population collapse?
Not only would universe collapse destroy the game leaving it in a loop of forever thin playerbase, but all those players, that paid sooo much would lose interest in game and get lonely really fast.
Customers:
You have your secure playerbase that will stay no matter what, and say whatever lie they need to protect it, --- maybe lets be optimistic 10-30%
You have average joes that will try out the game with a single payment and potentially more later on --- lets say 70-90%
And of course you have potential customers, those that will play it smart and wait, than join later on
if the game, population, balance is well and healthy.
And that potential base is what i would worry about.
Sincerily
Freelancer
There are numerous statements either attacking or defending the way RSI is getting funds from and im caught up in between.
Yes its clear that convenience means that ALL items available ingame at some point you will be able to acquire ingame.
>Reasonably ships that cost hundreds, thousands of $ get such ingame grind window, that it goes beyond means of most players to complete even in years, thus that chance equals p2w.
No one in their right mind will have goals so high ,nor time to grind non-stop for years simply becouse a 10 000 $ ship exist, and they will eventually break and cash out thus proving the p2w.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>The game competitiveness and pvp become based solely on edge money provides you becouse otherwise you are exiled from 99% of the content for bullies are able to keep you handicapped forever.
Im pretty sure everyone knows how it looks when you are prevented from doing quests and chores becouse that one player kills everyone in the area with a single attack type of difference.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>Becouse of the lack of realistic options for single payment players, once they realise they will never ever caught up to top ~20% of the players
most of them leave and the universe becomes half-empty shell.
(This could actually stimulate whales to spend even more money for they will be surrounded by similar spending class of players.But they might overburn since there simply isnt that many players and servers would turn empty.)
Solution:Allow separate servers for heavy investors and separate for casual players?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>There are also rummors of add-ons, zones, items only available by additional payments, instead of it being part of single purchase like most mmo's did untill now, aka restrictions to base game pack content.
The total amount of money needed for this type of gameplay would measure in hundreds of dollars over the years or more, and while its not much when spread, its still far higher price than any title in existance thus far.
So, my question is, how will these, already logically apparent and serious problems be adressed on time and prevent universe population collapse?
Not only would universe collapse destroy the game leaving it in a loop of forever thin playerbase, but all those players, that paid sooo much would lose interest in game and get lonely really fast.
Customers:
You have your secure playerbase that will stay no matter what, and say whatever lie they need to protect it, --- maybe lets be optimistic 10-30%
You have average joes that will try out the game with a single payment and potentially more later on --- lets say 70-90%
And of course you have potential customers, those that will play it smart and wait, than join later on
if the game, population, balance is well and healthy.
And that potential base is what i would worry about.
Sincerily
Freelancer
Comments
In maybe ten years we'll get the Star Citizen that people have forked over millions to play. Until then, don't get your hopes up.
Around 20 threads on mmorpg.com (Search function is thy friend)
479 pages of discussion on the offficial forum
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/212815/katamari-mega-thread-pay-to-win/p479
At least a dozen gaming press articles specifically about that topic
So ... Lets find a new P2W aspect to discuss, shall we ?
TLDR:
"Lets wait and see until a few weeks after launch day..."
Have fun
PS:
>>>
>There are also rummors of add-ons, zones, items only available by additional payments, instead of it being part of single purchase like most mmo's did untill now, aka restrictions to base game pack content.>>>>
Add-ons are not rumour - they have been specifically mentioned by Chris Roberts years ago. And they are add-ons to the single player game Squadron 42. First add-on is named "Behind Enemy Lines".
Items only available for additional payment
specifically contradicts a design principle of SC : "EVERYTHING will be available in game for in game money!"
Feel free to link to a official source that
mentions these items. Or zones.
Obviously you don't 'win' but you clearly gain a significant time and UEC advantage over someone who chooses not to pay. How much a person makes out of that time advantage will determine exactly how favoured things are towards wallet warriors, anyone claiming otherwise is just being weaselly.
Chris Roberts himself has addressed this question several times, especially during the first year or so. Check out the early 10FTCs for clarification.
In my experience, few games actually ARE P2W in a sense where you actually win anything by paying real money. There are exceptions, but they're rare.
So, unless Chris Roberts and his team are outright lying - it won't be.
But there's no way to be sure until the game is out.
As for ships costing real money - those are pledges for backers and that goes away before release. You buy them because you want to support the game - and they give you a bunch of pretty pixels as a token of gratitude. It's not about power - as the game is designed around player skill and knowledge, and the "power" inherent in ships will be focused around what you put into the ships - and if you use your ship in the role for which it was intended.
So, some cheap ships will be able to defeat some expensive ships - all things being equal - and some expensive ships will be able to defeat some cheap ships under the same circumstances.
That's the clear intention from Roberts, anyway.
We'll have to see if that works out.
Now it depends on how you define a win > maybe it's naming a Jumppoint or destroying other ships.
Your "win" status will decrease in time because as the playerbase evolves, other player have enough creds to buy the bigger stuff - up to a point where it does not matter anymore how much you spend.
In other words - the people who spend 1000$+ on spaceships won't be ahead forever (this implies that there are not infinite upgrades).
IMHO - The bigger, better, faster, stronger ships you've bought do not weigh up against the thrill of upgrading your stuff ingame.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Defending flaws will only encourage bad game management, critics, are there to help show people responsible, just how catastrophic their bad choices can be long-term.
I dont think i've yet been wrong about any title in the past 5 years, ever, the outcome is just becoming too generic not to notice now.
I want this game to succeed, more than you would ever think, i was following it for years, i just dont see it possible with current management becouse what they are doing is forcing large part of the potential playerbase out of the way, becouse of simple greed.
Tell me what was the first minimum budget goal for the game to be functional, and how many millions over it did it archieve so far, becouse by the looks of it, RSI will have much more funds on release day than budget of Destiny. And most of it resulted from selling supreme advancement to the players in a game that doesnt yet exist, and we all know how that ends, check Archeage.
Also, I'd love to know how you know, by the way.
There is no balance nor control in what they are doing, and once servers are up, it can go to disaster in a matter of weeks. And it will, if drastic changes to balance arent met. Yet they cant balance it anymore becouse they sold 1k+ $ ships and making that money worthless will betray whales.
Its a closed loop, RSI is in a trap,and the only solution i see is to cash-out in the first half a year and run for your life.
For time will come and i hope i am wrong for the first time in my life about these things, i just hope.
Great timing, we really needed another thread discussing the P2W or not aspect of SC. Bravo, well done.
/Sarcasm
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
One ,not perfect solution to prevent griefing would be completely locking out most zones out of pvp which would give all players slim chance of ever being competetive in the future.This is risky solution, since whales might turn on RSI for they wont be able to use that edge they paid for.
One of the ways i can see Star Citizen being stable is isolating the damage and putting most of the players which invested ridiculous amount of funds onto one server where they can be competetive in their p2w ways between each other.
This way thousands of players that plan to invest around 100$-500$ can play on stable and balanced servers and have a balanced and fair start and might potentially archieve incredible bloom of population which would in turn make even more profit than untill now overtime.
Making the universe large enough for players to not notice the balance issues is a lie, since players that invested heavily into the game expect an edge over all other players, and they will do everything in their power to stop most of the population from being competetive by forcing them out of the zones and bullying.
Anyone who played Eve Online ,Freelancer Discovery or other similar games know you as a player can make a universe monopoly so painfull there isnt a way around it, and by the time you do become competetive, whales will be on a whole other level and griefing cycle completed.
Read some Eve Online history, its something worthy of book material.
Also my sources are about 10-15 websites i often visit, estimates, polls, tables, dev and management team's competence and history, trend and treatment towards customers and solutions for long-term released to the public. When you have a lot of free time on your hands you know things.
As said, time will tell, they will either do the right thing, or not, its that simple.
Here:
Please explain to us - with you being incapable of being wrong - what is required for the game being functional with its expanded scope.
Also, I'd love to know how you know, by the way.
Also, what do you think will happen, id like to hear your oppinion on how balance issue could be solved, i stated mine.
You dont need sources, just use common sence and tell me what do you expect from first few months of Star Citizen gameplay.
For people are watching, many want to know just where they stand before they purchase the game and dig in, will they get their money's worth and will nothing stop them from that?
Look at the INSANE prices on stuff and the fact that players BOUGHT it!!!
If you think they are gonna let that cash-cow run away I think players are sadly mistaken.
Ill quote myself and please ask me what you dont understand about it.
"Please explain to us - with you being incapable of being wrong - what is required for the game being functional with its expanded scope."
I.
"One of the ways i can see Star Citizen being stable is isolating the damage and putting most of the players which invested ridiculous amount of funds onto one server where they can be competetive in their p2w ways between each other."
Rest of the players would be spread on other equal grounds servers.This way potential disbalance and griefing could be completely prevented.
Imagine one or several servers called "ELITE" for example where if you dont invest heavily and wish to play there you will be hard-core player.
And other casual and one time payment players would play on a clean-slate starting from equal grounds and building up organisations with the same chances for everyone, i would find that fair and possible.
"Also, I'd love to know how you know, by the way."
II.
"Also my sources are about 10-15 websites i often visit, estimates, polls, tables, dev and management team's competence and history, trend and treatment towards customers and solutions for long-term released to the public. When you have a lot of free time on your hands you know things."
Hubs ,forums, talking with people, and most importantly reading hundreds of oppinions to get a general feeling of the state of one title. Its not that hard, just takes time.
I hope this is clear enough for you.If you have further arguments ,turn them to solutions.
I asked for a concise answer.
1. What amount of money do YOU think is required to make the CURRENT vision functional?
2. How do you know?
It's not rocket science.
There must be other solutions as well, i just hope someone on dev team has long-term words in their right mind or its gonna be another generic Archeage syndrom.
And what Trion did stands a beacon for all of future, to make it impossible for casual players to compete is to make your servers become empty, and once they are, whales simply follow, and you get an empty server everyone wants transfer from.
--> Have fun
Where people VOLUNTARILY give money for a project ? Some more than others .
Have fun
Your answer makes RSI look even more bad.
Roberts has a past, he has potential to make something good, but having a good game, and good payment model are two so different things.
The budget for SC went through the roof, and no the estimated budget for entire Destiny project should be above 450kk , if Eve online players migrate to SC it might very well archieve that, BUT
they are not stupid playerbase, and wont invest in p2w bs if it becomes one.
And if that day comes neither you ,nor i, nor anyone here will need speak about it anymore.
Problem is apparent, by ignoring it, you simply support p2w.
If you wish to follow other part of playerbase into Trion syndrome, it will only make things worse.
A smart person would adress possible issue and find solution, they wouldnt blindly attack someone pointing out flaws becouse of subjectivity.
As i said before ,time might come, when your 100 or even 500$ just wont cut it, and when if that day comes remmember me.
Feel free to post YOUR personal source for numbers on Destiny.
And with respect to the EVE playerbase migrating to SC .... they are already here. For years now. Including me. You seem to be a bit late to the party. And if you head over to the EVE Online subforum here on mmorpg.com, you will find many threads that accuse EVE Online of being NOTHING BUT P2W (an opinion i do not share).
A suggestion .... as you continously visit so many homepages and post there .. get some FACTS and BOOKMARK THE LINKS.
You can post your OPINIONS to your hearts content here and in other forums. But if you declare something a FACT, you better come up with the source for that fact so others can take a look and decide for themselves. Not everyone might believe everything just because you said so.
Another suggestion .... declaring that you have never been wrong in the last years .... such a statement may NOT yield the result you may have expected ..... credibility of statement and all those details .....
Have fun
PS:
W.r.t. to your later edit of your post ....
"ignoring problems" , "not discussing problems"
--> you seem to have missed a few hundredthousand posts on the official forum alone (and that is NOT an exaggeration ... just check out the official forum)
--> All problems have been discussed in EXTREME detail there. Often dozens of times, again and again
--> To a smaller extent ... check out the SC sub-forum here .... thousands of posts in hundreds of threads.