Say, that ship is capital ship , with npc's helping you, and you have few of your friends in fighters?
Id be scared of what that group can do if they are skilled even in the basics.
While playing F:D i once solo entered Corsair territory, while they were preparing to mount an attack, on another system, after loading i was facing several capital ships, destroyers, and dozens of fighters, they sent 2 fighters to escort me out,
my ship was laughable to waste missiles on. xD
There's nothing preventing you from hiring NPCs even if you have just one ship. You can hire them with ships of their own. However, I think we all know that other players is the way to go if you want to win anything.
Also, there's going to be a natural limitation of how many of your guild mates can exist in any one instance - and as such, you can't just bring an army to dominate anywhere.
"Also, there's going to be a natural limitation of how many of your
guild mates can exist in any one instance - and as such, you can't just
bring an army to dominate anywhere."
Thats pretty bold claim, from the scope SC zones look like, i dont think there will be harsh limitations, at least not in all zones, since guild wars are inevitable component of title like this.
And from what i saw in other Space games, i know there are bully guilds, which will enjoy killing and harassing new players in every possible way, they wont work much on improving themselves if they already own what they bought with $, so they will have all the time in the world to dominate zones they wish for first week, or several ,or a month? The story about earning a 500$ ship in 80h gametime is highly unlikely, and even if it is ,with these guys around, it might strech to 800h easily.
It all depends if all starting zones will be locked out of pvp, i dont know that, but seems unlikely.
Bold claim? It's a fact based on technical limitations and it's directly from Chris Roberts.
The most optimistic goal, right now, is 100 active ships in one instance - and I don't think that's realistic for launch.
Personally, I'd be shocked if they can push it to 60 - given the level of fidelity they're going for.
So, if you imagine how they have to accomodate all players and NPCs - having a personal army in an instance is not going to be a common occurrence.
As for you fantasy numbers based on nothing at all, I don't know what to say - except that the developers themselves are contradicting them.
Totally depends on how you view the word "pledge". I think of it as applying in the following - CR: "If you give me $500 then I promise that I will make this spaceship available in game as close to the concept art as feasible and by <insert reasonable date>." The person making the pledge is the one receiving the money, they are the one promising goods in return for financial security, not the person handing over the money. Because they are promising to deliver something in return for money it could very easily be viewed as a pre-order.
"The threshold pledge or fund and release system is a way of making a fundraisingpledge as a group of individuals, often involving charitable goals or financing the provision of a public good. An amount of money is set as the goal or threshold
to reach for the specified purpose and interested individuals will
pitch in, but the money at first either remains with the pledgers or is
held in escrow.
When the threshold is reached, the pledges are called in (or
transferred from the escrow fund) and a contract is formed so that the
collective good is supplied; a variant is that the money is collected
when the good is actually delivered. If the threshold is not reached by a
certain date (or perhaps if no contract is ever signed, etc.), the
pledges are either never collected or, if held in escrow, are simply
returned to the pledgers. In economics, this type of model is known as an assurance contract.
This system is most often applied to creative works, both for financing new productions and for buying out existing works;...."
The text is longer .. but you will see that "pre-order" is never mentioned in it.
just quick aside about using Wikipedia, you can't really use Wikipedia as you can't guarantee the validity of the information contained in it as it can be publicly edited and therefore the source cannot be verified...
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
Because if people with $50 ships start beating up on the whales with $3000 ships, the forums will ignite and things will get shifted towards where the money gravitates from.
And that ain't the guys with $50 ships.
So, you honestly think that an expensive cargo ship will defeat a cheap military ship?
Ok, cool story
It's been spelled out over and over again, that ships don't equal power. Ships are about ROLES. Some of the most expensive ships are the LEAST powerful in terms of PvP. Some are research ships, some are information runners, some are cargo ships. You think that's military power? It's not.
I'm sure there's a TINY minority of whales who've deluded themselves into thinking they bought power - but the vast majority will have done some research because it's a BIG investment - so they know exactly what they're in for.
I know it's a nice theory for a detractor, but most people will think for a second or two before they invest 15K dollars in a computer game.
Doing a complete 180 because of a few mad hatters and making it into a P2W would be complete suicide.
It's ludicrous to assume they'd do that - unless you really, really want them to be both stupid and deceitful.
Yep, have to agree on that ,none of us knows exactly if they will make some balance changes prior to release, or if they do them on the go. And those Pledge Packs contain crapload of ships but only about 50% combat ones or less. You cant be effective enough with all of them in the air by yourself.
Its only effective if your guildmates fly your entire fleet, but than thats not 1 person you are facing but many, which seems fair.
We wont know all the details untill game is released and we try it or hear from others that did 1-2weeks in. If RSI makes good choices and balances out the game power-wise to be playable, and everything else lag/hack/spam/server related goes with no issues, the population can grow exponentionally in months after release.
It has a perfect formula for pay to win. According to my calculations it will require you to pay anywhere from 50-100$ a month to enjoy this game. So you get a ship run out and well the ship gets damaged and needs to be repaired which requires money. The skill to repair the ship also requires money and the tool to repair the ship will require money. The materials to repair the ship will also require money. So the repair tool will be destroyed after a few uses and you will need to buy a new one or repair the old one. And this is just a small ship we haven't even begun to talk about ammunition or salvage costs.
So you have a nice big ship that requires 10 people to fly it. You can pay more money and get npc crew to help fly the ship or you can get 10 friends who probably won't feel like sitting there looking at a radar while someone else is shooting the guns and another player is probably running off with all the repair tools because he himself is a tool and scamming is legal.
In a logical conclusion this game has everything it needs to be a pay to win game. However if done properly it will not be pay to win which I highly doubt because anyone willing to sell ships that do not exist will also be willing to sell ships that do exist and create an economy that evolves around purchasing of such items.
This is some serious and well presented info. I presume you have links to this so we can check for ourselves.
If not then you Sir are a liar, and a poor one at that.
Ship upkeep is common knowledge. Paying npc's to help you fly the ship is also common knowledge. You know common knowldedge doesn't require links.
Common knowledge is what CIG sates. Everything you mentioned will be acquired with the in game currency.
Oh you didn't know these items can buy with real money too? CIG has stated as much. Of course this will all evolve around how they setup the economy. Will dying and losing a ship cripple you to the point that spending money is the only option, unless you think spending a week to get a ship back to just die again and repeat is fun. If they have an economy like EVE or GW2 then this won't be a problem. Just like I have been saying all along... They must make money somehow and a 15$ a month sub fee or buy to play plan isn't going to work with a game that still needs money to finish development.
I wouldn't expect the player in the capital ship to simply sit there and wait for the players to respawan and come back.
I am not talking about zerging. That is not really possible the way the "Death of a Spaceman" mechanic works in SC.
I am talking about pack tactics like in EVE Online.
Example: 19 players in cheap ships attacking a larger ship. Try to disable engines. Or focus fire all on one section of the shield until this weakens or goes out of order temporarily. Many of these 19 ships will die. Does not matter. They are cheap and easily replaceable. The equivalent in EVE is all those suiciders getting killed by the police (suicide squad getting CONCORDED).
20th ship is a boarding ship full of marines. Comes in range when the shield goes down. Punches through. Delivers marines. PLAYER marines. Player marines systematically clear out all NPC defenders. Does not matter if all the other ships outside are dead by now. The marines do not need to hurry if they are able to hack the self destruct. So ... bring a player hacker.
Finally - after they reached the bridge - they smear the bloody remains of the player avatar across the bridge window. Then they take over the ship. Load up a fake ship ID. And fly away into the sunset (= lawless outer system with your favorite pirate haven). (In EVE there would be a transport ship waiting to fish the loot out of space, the police not bothering him at all).
Have fun
PS:
Yes, i know ... the pilot of the larger ship could also have a player crew. The pirates would simple not attack them (here a good spy network comes into play - doing research on which orgs are well organized and staffed). Pirates may prefer to hit solo players in big ships which are not members of any player orgs. Many of those solo players will prefer NPC crewed ships.
Ah thats a well laid plan. I just hope that a smart player in a capital ship isn't always at a disadvantage either. Too many people assume he's in a capital ship so he's stupid and we can just zerg him. I cant wait for this game myself. I really hope they make an economy like EVE.
Because if people with $50 ships start beating up on the whales with $3000 ships, the forums will ignite and things will get shifted towards where the money gravitates from.
And that ain't the guys with $50 ships.
So, you honestly think that an expensive cargo ship will defeat a cheap military ship?
Ok, cool story
It's been spelled out over and over again, that ships don't equal power. Ships are about ROLES. Some of the most expensive ships are the LEAST powerful in terms of PvP. Some are research ships, some are information runners, some are cargo ships. You think that's military power? It's not.
I'm sure there's a TINY minority of whales who've deluded themselves into thinking they bought power - but the vast majority will have done some research because it's a BIG investment - so they know exactly what they're in for.
I know it's a nice theory for a detractor, but most people will think for a second or two before they invest 15K dollars in a computer game.
Doing a complete 180 because of a few mad hatters and making it into a P2W would be complete suicide.
It's ludicrous to assume they'd do that - unless you really, really want them to be both stupid and deceitful.
Yep, have to agree on that ,none of us knows exactly if they will make some balance changes prior to release, or if they do them on the go. And those Pledge Packs contain crapload of ships but only about 50% combat ones or less. You cant be effective enough with all of them in the air by yourself.
Its only effective if your guildmates fly your entire fleet, but than thats not 1 person you are facing but many, which seems fair.
We wont know all the details untill game is released and we try it or hear from others that did 1-2weeks in. If RSI makes good choices and balances out the game power-wise to be playable, and everything else lag/hack/spam/server related goes with no issues, the population can grow exponentionally in months after release.
You're right, we don't know all that much.
All we really know is what the developers themselves are saying - and what they're planning.
Personally, I don't think it's all a big deceitful scam campaign - and I'd say it has to be the most elaborate con of all time if it turns out I'm wrong.
So, until the design stops making sense - I'll have some faith in them. Most of them are very established professionals with many years of making games on their resume.
Beyond that, pretty much every game Chris Roberts has been involved with - whether you pretend he was just some backup coffee boy or not - has been a favorite of mine.
That also buys him some of my faith.
What can I say, I'm the kind of guy who goes with my eyes and ears - rather than non-sensical conspiracy theories that change and grow every minute of every day.
Person A bought 20 ships. Person B has one ship but is working towards getting more. People are saying person A has no advantage over person B? O_o Person A can jump into mining with a better ship, exploration with a better ship, PvP with a better ship, and with lifetime insurance pays less to replace destroyed ships.
I also seriously doubt they will just stop selling ships at launch. That's a good cash flow and I don't see them closing up that part of their cash shop.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Say, that ship is capital ship , with npc's helping you, and you have few of your friends in fighters?
Id be scared of what that group can do if they are skilled even in the basics.
While playing F:D i once solo entered Corsair territory, while they were preparing to mount an attack, on another system, after loading i was facing several capital ships, destroyers, and dozens of fighters, they sent 2 fighters to escort me out,
my ship was laughable to waste missiles on. xD
There's nothing preventing you from hiring NPCs even if you have just one ship. You can hire them with ships of their own. However, I think we all know that other players is the way to go if you want to win anything.
Also, there's going to be a natural limitation of how many of your guild mates can exist in any one instance - and as such, you can't just bring an army to dominate anywhere.
"Also, there's going to be a natural limitation of how many of your
guild mates can exist in any one instance - and as such, you can't just
bring an army to dominate anywhere."
Thats pretty bold claim, from the scope SC zones look like, i dont think there will be harsh limitations, at least not in all zones, since guild wars are inevitable component of title like this.
And from what i saw in other Space games, i know there are bully guilds, which will enjoy killing and harassing new players in every possible way, they wont work much on improving themselves if they already own what they bought with $, so they will have all the time in the world to dominate zones they wish for first week, or several ,or a month? The story about earning a 500$ ship in 80h gametime is highly unlikely, and even if it is ,with these guys around, it might strech to 800h easily.
It all depends if all starting zones will be locked out of pvp, i dont know that, but seems unlikely.
Bold claim? It's a fact based on technical limitations and it's directly from Chris Roberts.
The most optimistic goal, right now, is 100 active ships in one instance - and I don't think that's realistic for launch.
Personally, I'd be shocked if they can push it to 60 - given the level of fidelity they're going for.
So, if you imagine how they have to accomodate all players and NPCs - having a personal army in an instance is not going to be a common occurrence.
As for you fantasy numbers based on nothing at all, I don't know what to say - except that the developers themselves are contradicting them.
Not fantasy numbers, 500$-80h by Chris Roberts as someone described previously in this thread.
And you dont think capital ship+ like 10 more people , sums bellow 60? Last time i checked ~15<60 It is perfectly possible to dominate a zone, nothing can ever change that.
If zone is 30 player max, 15 player guild can still easily enter it if theres room, or they can send a squadron of 3-5 to cause some ruckus.
Your not making much sense, only way you can stop someone from dominating a zone is locking pvp out of it, or making pvp markers for each player.
Person A bought 20 ships. Person B has one ship but is working towards getting more. People are saying person A has no advantage over person B? O_o Person A can jump into mining with a better ship, exploration with a better ship, PvP with a better ship, and with lifetime insurance pays less to replace destroyed ships.
I also seriously doubt they will just stop selling ships at launch. That's a good cash flow and I don't see them closing up that part of their cash shop.
I guess it depends on what you mean by advantage.
If there's an advantage, it's not about actual power or PvP. Also, whatever advantage there is - it will be completely nullified mere weeks after release.
If a guy has one thousand ships, he can still only fly one ship at a time. Unless he's doing the most efficient job out of all players in the Verse - then there's going to be some smart dude with a single ship earning more credits, because he picked the right ship for the role he's great at.
What rumors? They sell ships for real money, thats p2w right there.
Technicaly its convenience like in every other mmo cash shop, and they allow casuals to grind their way up to all of those ships its fine.
People spend money, but they work, and spend less time playing. You maybe dont work as much and have more time to play and circumvent that.
Totally depends on the release info. They'll either do it right or make whale exclusive heaven.
(Whale exclusive heaven is also right for them, profit-wise, but cant last as long since server population wont be as large)
Some simply won't be happy with sold ships, regardless of how much time it takes to earn in-game. I find SC is very much like you describe, straddling the line. I do hope they find a balance. Realistically, I probably won't own a capital ship at all, since I won't have the time nor money to invest. However, I hope they do find a balance that will allow me to own a reasonable ship at a reasonable cost (time or money or combined).
I just don't want to be severely under-powered because I didn't pour money into the game. However, I don't mind spending $100 or $200+ a year, incrementally, if it's a game that I enjoy and I'm playing consistently. The whale route is attractive, but I think that the balance route is more lucrative in the long run. There are other ways to leverage whales that are less off-putting for regular Joe's.
What rumors? They sell ships for real money, thats p2w right there.
Technicaly its convenience like in every other mmo cash shop, and they allow casuals to grind their way up to all of those ships its fine.
People spend money, but they work, and spend less time playing. You maybe dont work as much and have more time to play and circumvent that.
Totally depends on the release info. They'll either do it right or make whale exclusive heaven.
(Whale exclusive heaven is also right for them, profit-wise, but cant last as long since server population wont be as large)
Technically its a piece of "gear", that has some stats and those are better than a default starting ship. I dont care if you can grind for the same ships in the game. Its literally buying stuff, that makes you better than a person thats not buying stuff. The very definion of P2W.
just quick aside about using Wikipedia, you can't really use Wikipedia as you can't guarantee the validity of the information contained in it as it can be publicly edited and therefore the source cannot be verified...
This is not a peer reviewed paper and not an expert opinion to be presented at a court of law.
This is a game forum.
Wikipedia is good enough for a game forum in 99,999 % of all cases. The (self-) moderation system works IMHO pretty well in Wikipedia.
BTW from a science point of view the information on Wikipedia is often more accurate than older science textbooks (and that is something i have verified personally).
I would not trust Wikipedia when it comes to highly political or religous topics (e.g. North Korea, Israel, Iran, Ucraine, creationists, ISIS, Trump etc.) as a lot of manipulation is going on there w.r.t. Wikipedia pages.
What rumors? They sell ships for real money, thats p2w right there.
Technicaly its convenience like in every other mmo cash shop, and they allow casuals to grind their way up to all of those ships its fine.
People spend money, but they work, and spend less time playing. You maybe dont work as much and have more time to play and circumvent that.
Totally depends on the release info. They'll either do it right or make whale exclusive heaven.
(Whale exclusive heaven is also right for them, profit-wise, but cant last as long since server population wont be as large)
Technically its a piece of "gear", that has some stats and those are better than a default starting ship. I dont care if you can grind for the same ships in the game. Its literally buying stuff, that makes you better than a person thats not buying stuff. The very definion of P2W.
Soooo, WoW is P2W as well. Because I can buy a level 100 character?
Also, it should be noted that many have brought up the fact that they are social gamers, so the cosmetic items are much more P2W to them.
Classically, P2W has NOT been defined by selling stat items, it's been defined by selling items that are better than what can be obtained through gameplay. It's fine if that's not your definition, maybe SC isn't for you. However, if we accept your definition, then we need to honor the cosmetics as well because it affects SOME people. Then we get onto the slippery slope of everything being P2W. Then P2W loses all meaning and relevance because we just call everything P2W.
Oh you didn't know these items can buy with real money too? CIG has stated as much.
No they did not. Feel free to post a source that says otherwise.
The situation as it is known today:
CIG said that after PU launch day you can get starter packages with starter ships (Aurora, Mustang).
You CANNOT buy another ship with real world money after PU has launched.
Chris Roberts once (during a BarCitizen event .... i blame the beer ;-) mentioned a Hornet to be sold (he was taking about single seat fighters and meant the Mustang, this was later clarified in a dev post). That slip of tongue was blown out of proportion by some and sold as "OMG OMG ... CIG is now selling ALL ships for real money after the game has launched".
P2W? yup, sure. I mean, day one, people will already have Sabre's, Warden's and Mil-spec Lancers. when you roll out in your starter ship, you will be a pigeon, if anyone can find you, that is.
Each game instance isn't anywhere nearly as populated as your typical MMO.
But honestly, my hope is that, when thee game does go live, everyone with these bigger ships that they've paid for won't be able to afford to fly them. Ships need fuel and ammo, larger ships need more of it and repair costs for action get more expensive.
Think of it this way, if you are an average-joe like me and someone gives you a brand new Ferarri...can you honestly afford to OWN it? how much will the insurance payment alone be? cost to fuel a car that is like 5 miles to the gallon? lol
That is my hope. BUT, if you are also able to back in-game currency, well then there goes that. People will just by the means they need to operate their vessels.
NOW, with all of that said...none of this really matters as much as you think it does. Here is what I mean.
You can (and I have lol) fly a really nice craft, beyond starter level, and still get your ass kicked by someone in a starter-level craft. Pilot skill will be the real driving factor here. This isn't WoW where you spam control-bar skill icons and your toon executes some crazy-ass attack or magic...YOU are the skill.
Yes, larger ships carry bigger guns and larger missiles....but if you can't point them for sh!t, you are dead. Unfortunately, I am not as skilled a pilot here as I am in something like Falcon 4 lol
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
What rumors? They sell ships for real money, thats p2w right there.
Technicaly its convenience like in every other mmo cash shop, and they allow casuals to grind their way up to all of those ships its fine.
People spend money, but they work, and spend less time playing. You maybe dont work as much and have more time to play and circumvent that.
Totally depends on the release info. They'll either do it right or make whale exclusive heaven.
(Whale exclusive heaven is also right for them, profit-wise, but cant last as long since server population wont be as large)
Technically its a piece of "gear", that has some stats and those are better than a default starting ship. I dont care if you can grind for the same ships in the game. Its literally buying stuff, that makes you better than a person thats not buying stuff. The very definion of P2W.
Soooo, WoW is P2W as well. Because I can buy a level 100 character?
Also, it should be noted that many have brought up the fact that they are social gamers, so the cosmetic items are much more P2W to them.
Classically, P2W has NOT been defined by selling stat items, it's been defined by selling items that are better than what can be obtained through gameplay. It's fine if that's not your definition, maybe SC isn't for you. However, if we accept your definition, then we need to honor the cosmetics as well because it affects SOME people. Then we get onto the slippery slope of everything being P2W. Then P2W loses all meaning and relevance because we just call everything P2W.
Im glad you started the post with the worst example imaginable so I dont have to read the rest.
Technically its a piece of "gear", that has some stats and those are better than a default starting ship. I dont care if you can grind for the same ships in the game. Its literally buying stuff, that makes you better than a person thats not buying stuff. The very definion of P2W.
The "Hull-C" may be TECHNICALLY better than your default starter ship stat wise. You COULD pledge for it now.
Its larger.
It has a bigger engine.
It even has more weapons. etc.
Now ... would the Hull-C pilot OWN YOU ? Would his awesome P2W abilities make you tremble with fear ?
Nope ! A Mustang single seat fighter starter ship will just sit in the blind spot of a Hull-C freighter and KILL IT !
And laugh at the salty tears of the freighter pilot.
Now ... Mustang starter vs. Sabre or Vanguard fighter.... that will be interesting to watch. My bet is on the better pilot, NOT the "better" ship. Star Citizen is a skill based game.
consist of many ships, and not just one, so in some way those people will be able to outright set up entire guilds/organisations on the release date with their friends, which is a huge advantage over others but nice as well since it can provide options for established guilds.
Not on release date. This has been going on for years already.
For years now player orgs have pooled their money and bought larger packs and capital ships. Especially during sale events when "free bonus ships" where added to the special sale event packs.
And many of the ships in those packs have then been gifted to members of the org (which often have only basic starter packages).
In some cases i know that some players have given away 2/3 of the ships in their larger packages. Either for free to members in their org. Or given away as prices in competitions. Because they want to earn most ships in game through their own work.
What rumors? They sell ships for real money, thats p2w right there.
Technicaly its convenience like in every other mmo cash shop, and they allow casuals to grind their way up to all of those ships its fine.
People spend money, but they work, and spend less time playing. You maybe dont work as much and have more time to play and circumvent that.
Totally depends on the release info. They'll either do it right or make whale exclusive heaven.
(Whale exclusive heaven is also right for them, profit-wise, but cant last as long since server population wont be as large)
Technically its a piece of "gear", that has some stats and those are better than a default starting ship. I dont care if you can grind for the same ships in the game. Its literally buying stuff, that makes you better than a person thats not buying stuff. The very definion of P2W.
Soooo, WoW is P2W as well. Because I can buy a level 100 character?
Also, it should be noted that many have brought up the fact that they are social gamers, so the cosmetic items are much more P2W to them.
Classically, P2W has NOT been defined by selling stat items, it's been defined by selling items that are better than what can be obtained through gameplay. It's fine if that's not your definition, maybe SC isn't for you. However, if we accept your definition, then we need to honor the cosmetics as well because it affects SOME people. Then we get onto the slippery slope of everything being P2W. Then P2W loses all meaning and relevance because we just call everything P2W.
Im glad you started the post with the worst example imaginable so I dont have to read the rest.
I'm glad that you made this comment because it means I shouldn't waste my breath since it's clear that what you think is all that matters.
Technically its a piece of "gear", that has some stats and those are better than a default starting ship. I dont care if you can grind for the same ships in the game. Its literally buying stuff, that makes you better than a person thats not buying stuff. The very definion of P2W.
The "Hull-C" may be TECHNICALLY better than your default starter ship stat wise. You COULD pledge for it now.
Its larger.
It has a bigger engine.
It even has more weapons. etc.
Now ... would the Hull-C pilot OWN YOU ? Would his awesome P2W abilities make you tremble with fear ?
Nope ! A Mustang single seat fighter starter ship will just sit in the blind spot of a Hull-C freighter and KILL IT !
And laugh at the salty tears of the freighter pilot.
Now ... Mustang starter vs. Sabre or Vanguard fighter.... that will be interesting to watch. My bet is on the better pilot, NOT the "better" ship. Star Citizen is a skill based game.
Have fun
Sorry man, but I cannot believe you are actually trying to spin this one lol. the STARTER ship is the ship you will start with if you only buy the game.
If you upgrade that by giving CIG more money, that doesn't make your new ship a STARTER ship, it just means you PAID more money to have a BETTER starting ship.
THAT is kind of the definition of pay to win. I think you just made it worse by enticing him to pay more money to negate the advantage of others lol.
And yes, I agree that SC is a skill-based game. But that will only take it so far. A mustang alpha pilot will have to be exceptionally good to get past the shields of a Sabre before the Sabre pilot kills him, unless of course, the Sabre pilot is me and cannot fly himself out of a wet paper bag.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I won dogfights in an Aurora against Hornets or Avengers.
Despite the Aurora flying and turning like a pregnant pig.
But some of the "enemy" pilots seem to have been .... not very talented. Steering his ship into asteroids (after i dragged him into that little celestial pebble field), shooting EVERYWHERE but me, forgetting about his missiles (or he has already spend them without effect) etc.
That does NOT mean i always won in an Aurora. Far from it. Any pilot with decent skills in a decent ship would have a high chance of taking me down.
But SOME pilots cannot fly themselves out of a wet paper bag.
Have fun
PS: Thinking about it some more ... some pilots seem to have a problem with the third dimension. They turn, they weave, they change speed ... but all only in one plane. Some pilots seem to have a problem with the concept that your ship can go one direction and your weapons (while shooting) can point in a completely different direction (e.g. backwards). If you corkscrew down, left and back and decouple and turret .... they seem to be unable to wrap their heads around that maneuver. And then they die.
That does NOT mean i always won in an Aurora. Far from it. Any pilot with decent skills in a decent ship would have a high chance of taking me down.
Your point here does indicate the nature of how others see SC as P2W. If you buy better ships, you stand a better chance of walking away from an encounter.
Not a guaranteed chance, as we agree pilot skill is a big factor.
But all things being equal, the pilot in the better craft will walk away more times than his starter-ship counterpart.
If people are interested in SC, but don't play a lot of Dog-fighting, space games, the P2W elements might be a deal breaker, since they have neither the nicer ship or nor the pilot skills.
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For me personally, I am glad there will be all kinds of ships flying around on day one. Nothing kills the atmosphere of a game like a crapload of people all wearing, carrying, flying the same thing because its a new game. It makes the universe feel new and not established.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
For me personally, I am glad there will be all kinds of ships flying around on day one. Nothing kills the atmosphere of a game like a crapload of people all wearing, carrying, flying the same thing because its a new game. It makes the universe feel new and not established.
Same here. THAT was a special point why i thought offering a variety of ships to players from the start was a good thing.
Everyone flying around in Auroras would have looked VERY VERY silly on launch day.
Comments
The most optimistic goal, right now, is 100 active ships in one instance - and I don't think that's realistic for launch.
Personally, I'd be shocked if they can push it to 60 - given the level of fidelity they're going for.
So, if you imagine how they have to accomodate all players and NPCs - having a personal army in an instance is not going to be a common occurrence.
As for you fantasy numbers based on nothing at all, I don't know what to say - except that the developers themselves are contradicting them.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
And those Pledge Packs contain crapload of ships but only about 50% combat ones or less.
You cant be effective enough with all of them in the air by yourself.
Its only effective if your guildmates fly your entire fleet, but than thats not 1 person you are facing but many, which seems fair.
We wont know all the details untill game is released and we try it or hear from others that did 1-2weeks in.
If RSI makes good choices and balances out the game power-wise to be playable, and everything else lag/hack/spam/server related goes with no issues, the population can grow exponentionally in months after release.
Ah thats a well laid plan. I just hope that a smart player in a capital ship isn't always at a disadvantage either. Too many people assume he's in a capital ship so he's stupid and we can just zerg him. I cant wait for this game myself. I really hope they make an economy like EVE.
All we really know is what the developers themselves are saying - and what they're planning.
Personally, I don't think it's all a big deceitful scam campaign - and I'd say it has to be the most elaborate con of all time if it turns out I'm wrong.
So, until the design stops making sense - I'll have some faith in them. Most of them are very established professionals with many years of making games on their resume.
Beyond that, pretty much every game Chris Roberts has been involved with - whether you pretend he was just some backup coffee boy or not - has been a favorite of mine.
That also buys him some of my faith.
What can I say, I'm the kind of guy who goes with my eyes and ears - rather than non-sensical conspiracy theories that change and grow every minute of every day.
I also seriously doubt they will just stop selling ships at launch. That's a good cash flow and I don't see them closing up that part of their cash shop.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
And you dont think capital ship+ like 10 more people , sums bellow 60? Last time i checked ~15<60
It is perfectly possible to dominate a zone, nothing can ever change that.
If zone is 30 player max, 15 player guild can still easily enter it if theres room, or they can send a squadron of 3-5 to cause some ruckus.
Your not making much sense, only way you can stop someone from dominating a zone is locking pvp out of it, or making pvp markers for each player.
If there's an advantage, it's not about actual power or PvP. Also, whatever advantage there is - it will be completely nullified mere weeks after release.
If a guy has one thousand ships, he can still only fly one ship at a time. Unless he's doing the most efficient job out of all players in the Verse - then there's going to be some smart dude with a single ship earning more credits, because he picked the right ship for the role he's great at.
That's the design.
People spend money, but they work, and spend less time playing.
You maybe dont work as much and have more time to play and circumvent that.
Totally depends on the release info.
They'll either do it right or make whale exclusive heaven.
(Whale exclusive heaven is also right for them, profit-wise, but cant last as long since server population wont be as large)
Some simply won't be happy with sold ships, regardless of how much time it takes to earn in-game. I find SC is very much like you describe, straddling the line. I do hope they find a balance. Realistically, I probably won't own a capital ship at all, since I won't have the time nor money to invest. However, I hope they do find a balance that will allow me to own a reasonable ship at a reasonable cost (time or money or combined).
I just don't want to be severely under-powered because I didn't pour money into the game. However, I don't mind spending $100 or $200+ a year, incrementally, if it's a game that I enjoy and I'm playing consistently. The whale route is attractive, but I think that the balance route is more lucrative in the long run. There are other ways to leverage whales that are less off-putting for regular Joe's.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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This is a game forum.
Wikipedia is good enough for a game forum in 99,999 % of all cases. The (self-) moderation system works IMHO pretty well in Wikipedia.
BTW from a science point of view the information on Wikipedia is often more accurate than older science textbooks (and that is something i have verified personally).
I would not trust Wikipedia when it comes to highly political or religous topics (e.g. North Korea, Israel, Iran, Ucraine, creationists, ISIS, Trump etc.) as a lot of manipulation is going on there w.r.t. Wikipedia pages.
Have fun
Soooo, WoW is P2W as well. Because I can buy a level 100 character?
Also, it should be noted that many have brought up the fact that they are social gamers, so the cosmetic items are much more P2W to them.
Classically, P2W has NOT been defined by selling stat items, it's been defined by selling items that are better than what can be obtained through gameplay. It's fine if that's not your definition, maybe SC isn't for you. However, if we accept your definition, then we need to honor the cosmetics as well because it affects SOME people. Then we get onto the slippery slope of everything being P2W. Then P2W loses all meaning and relevance because we just call everything P2W.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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The situation as it is known today:
CIG said that after PU launch day you can get starter packages with starter ships (Aurora, Mustang).
You CANNOT buy another ship with real world money after PU has launched.
Chris Roberts once (during a BarCitizen event .... i blame the beer ;-) mentioned a Hornet to be sold (he was taking about single seat fighters and meant the Mustang, this was later clarified in a dev post). That slip of tongue was blown out of proportion by some and sold as "OMG OMG ... CIG is now selling ALL ships for real money after the game has launched".
Have fun
Each game instance isn't anywhere nearly as populated as your typical MMO.
But honestly, my hope is that, when thee game does go live, everyone with these bigger ships that they've paid for won't be able to afford to fly them. Ships need fuel and ammo, larger ships need more of it and repair costs for action get more expensive.
Think of it this way, if you are an average-joe like me and someone gives you a brand new Ferarri...can you honestly afford to OWN it? how much will the insurance payment alone be? cost to fuel a car that is like 5 miles to the gallon? lol
That is my hope. BUT, if you are also able to back in-game currency, well then there goes that. People will just by the means they need to operate their vessels.
NOW, with all of that said...none of this really matters as much as you think it does. Here is what I mean.
You can (and I have lol) fly a really nice craft, beyond starter level, and still get your ass kicked by someone in a starter-level craft. Pilot skill will be the real driving factor here. This isn't WoW where you spam control-bar skill icons and your toon executes some crazy-ass attack or magic...YOU are the skill.
Yes, larger ships carry bigger guns and larger missiles....but if you can't point them for sh!t, you are dead. Unfortunately, I am not as skilled a pilot here as I am in something like Falcon 4 lol
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Its larger.
It has a bigger engine.
It even has more weapons. etc.
Now ... would the Hull-C pilot OWN YOU ? Would his awesome P2W abilities make you tremble with fear ?
Nope ! A Mustang single seat fighter starter ship will just sit in the blind spot of a Hull-C freighter and KILL IT !
And laugh at the salty tears of the freighter pilot.
Now ... Mustang starter vs. Sabre or Vanguard fighter.... that will be interesting to watch. My bet is on the better pilot, NOT the "better" ship. Star Citizen is a skill based game.
Have fun
For years now player orgs have pooled their money and bought larger packs and capital ships. Especially during sale events when "free bonus ships" where added to the special sale event packs.
And many of the ships in those packs have then been gifted to members of the org (which often have only basic starter packages).
In some cases i know that some players have given away 2/3 of the ships in their larger packages. Either for free to members in their org. Or given away as prices in competitions. Because they want to earn most ships in game through their own work.
Have fun
I'm glad that you made this comment because it means I shouldn't waste my breath since it's clear that what you think is all that matters.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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If you upgrade that by giving CIG more money, that doesn't make your new ship a STARTER ship, it just means you PAID more money to have a BETTER starting ship.
THAT is kind of the definition of pay to win. I think you just made it worse by enticing him to pay more money to negate the advantage of others lol.
And yes, I agree that SC is a skill-based game. But that will only take it so far. A mustang alpha pilot will have to be exceptionally good to get past the shields of a Sabre before the Sabre pilot kills him, unless of course, the Sabre pilot is me and cannot fly himself out of a wet paper bag.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I won dogfights in an Aurora against Hornets or Avengers.
Despite the Aurora flying and turning like a pregnant pig.
But some of the "enemy" pilots seem to have been .... not very talented. Steering his ship into asteroids (after i dragged him into that little celestial pebble field), shooting EVERYWHERE but me, forgetting about his missiles (or he has already spend them without effect) etc.
That does NOT mean i always won in an Aurora. Far from it. Any pilot with decent skills in a decent ship would have a high chance of taking me down.
But SOME pilots cannot fly themselves out of a wet paper bag.
Have fun
PS:
Thinking about it some more ... some pilots seem to have a problem with the third dimension. They turn, they weave, they change speed ... but all only in one plane. Some pilots seem to have a problem with the concept that your ship can go one direction and your weapons (while shooting) can point in a completely different direction (e.g. backwards).
If you corkscrew down, left and back and decouple and turret .... they seem to be unable to wrap their heads around that maneuver. And then they die.
Your point here does indicate the nature of how others see SC as P2W. If you buy better ships, you stand a better chance of walking away from an encounter.
Not a guaranteed chance, as we agree pilot skill is a big factor.
But all things being equal, the pilot in the better craft will walk away more times than his starter-ship counterpart.
If people are interested in SC, but don't play a lot of Dog-fighting, space games, the P2W elements might be a deal breaker, since they have neither the nicer ship or nor the pilot skills.
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For me personally, I am glad there will be all kinds of ships flying around on day one. Nothing kills the atmosphere of a game like a crapload of people all wearing, carrying, flying the same thing because its a new game. It makes the universe feel new and not established.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Everyone flying around in Auroras would have looked VERY VERY silly on launch day.
Have fun