Totally depends on how you view the word "pledge". I think of it as applying in the following - CR: "If you give me $500 then I promise that I will make this spaceship available in game as close to the concept art as feasible and by <insert reasonable date>." The person making the pledge is the one receiving the money, they are the one promising goods in return for financial security, not the person handing over the money. Because they are promising to deliver something in return for money it could very easily be viewed as a pre-order.
"The threshold pledge or fund and release system is a way of making a fundraisingpledge as a group of individuals, often involving charitable goals or financing the provision of a public good. An amount of money is set as the goal or threshold
to reach for the specified purpose and interested individuals will
pitch in, but the money at first either remains with the pledgers or is
held in escrow.
When the threshold is reached, the pledges are called in (or
transferred from the escrow fund) and a contract is formed so that the
collective good is supplied; a variant is that the money is collected
when the good is actually delivered. If the threshold is not reached by a
certain date (or perhaps if no contract is ever signed, etc.), the
pledges are either never collected or, if held in escrow, are simply
returned to the pledgers. In economics, this type of model is known as an assurance contract.
This system is most often applied to creative works, both for financing new productions and for buying out existing works;...."
The text is longer .. but you will see that "pre-order" is never mentioned in it.
The basis of my quote comes from The Concise Oxford Dictionary Pledge - Deposit as security, (one's honour, word etc)
Your example only works in the context of Kickstarter, Gofundme or some other crowdfunding platform. There are limits on the time in which a threshold must be passed otherwise the money is refunded. Star Citizen's website does not have a threshold, not does it have an arbitrary date in which X amount of funds must be raised. Therefore it does not fulfill the pledge system outlined in your post.
It doesn't matter that "pre-order" is not mentioned, it is something that can be inferred, a parallel can be drawn between two examples, which is what I did.
The basis of my quote comes from The Concise Oxford Dictionary Pledge - Deposit as security, (one's honour, word etc)
Your example only works in the context of Kickstarter, Gofundme or some other crowdfunding platform. There are limits on the time in which a threshold must be passed otherwise the money is refunded. Star Citizen's website does not have a threshold, not does it have an arbitrary date in which X amount of funds must be raised. Therefore it does not fulfill the pledge system outlined in your post.
It doesn't matter that "pre-order" is not mentioned, it is something that can be inferred, a parallel can be drawn between two examples, which is what I did.
A time treshold has also been named (and i am not speaking about the treshold for the Kickstarter level campaign ... that date was already obsolete in 2012 due to the changed scope of the game). With the caveat that for some reasons - especially of technical nature - this time might have to be extended. Such an extension is happening at the moment. Time treshold atm is 2016 (Squadron 42) and sometime in 2017 (PU).
Interesting that many HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL crowdfunding game projects went beyond the estimated date without problems and were still celebrated by gamers and the press. e.g.
"After the postponement of the original release date from October 2013,
it was released on September 19, 2014. An enhanced version of the game,
named Wasteland 2: Director's Cut, was released on October 13, 2015."
Therefore it is my opinion that Star Citizen DOES represent an example for the Treshhold Pledge System type of crowdfunding campaigns.
Another thread that is irrelevant until they actually MAKE the game. Right now they barely have a foundation for a game. Bring this up in 4 or 5 more years.
Another thread that is irrelevant until they actually MAKE the game. Right now they barely have a foundation for a game. Bring this up in 4 or 5 more years.
Or one of many P2W threads here (you will see that this thread will contain the same "arguments" as dozens of other threads before it) ... saw @YashaX in this thread, so -->
I am hoping the game is good Erillion, I just don't agree with using "crowdfunding" as a justification for extreme p2w. Normally I wouldn't even be that concerned about it, but the level of p2w being endorsed to incentivize funding for SC is eye-opening.
Hopefully the ends will justify the means, but I certainly don't hope to see this sort of thing become any more of a trend than it already is.
@rapatpamp ;In case you have not heard it yet - many crowdfunding projects have 10k$ or 15 k$ pledge levels. SC is no exception.
And the crowdfunding campaign for SC is still ongoing. It is not "in the past". If you meant Kickstarter .... That amounts to less than 2% of the money gathered for SC so far.
And even during the Kickstarter campaign we knew what was in the pledge package. Operative word here being "pledge". NOT pre-order. One does not "pre-order" in a crowdfunding campaign.
Have fun
And pledging a kickstarter works like this.
Pay $X amount and you receive said game and all applicable goals. You pledge without knowing what will actually be there or if it'll reach it's goals.
Now pre-ordering is giving $X for the listed items.
For instance I pre-ordered Battleborn and I know what I'm getting, if it didn't tell me what was included I'd be pledging money in hope the project turns out good.
Calling an apple an orange doesn't not make it an apple after all.
The website are pre-orders and if you can't see that I dunno what to tell you.
I actually feel sorry for people buying into this, the writings on the wall. Hell $15K and you don't even get everything in-game, you should recieve everything ever released for that price. That should be a red flag but people have these blinders on and can't see 2 feet in front of them.
Anyway this will affect gaming as a whole and it's looking very bleak. Reminds me of Mortal Kombat. When it came out the big fuss over blood and gore and now we have ratings on games. SC is going to change things but I really have no hope for the better.
A time treshold has also been named (and i am not speaking about the treshold for the Kickstarter level campaign ... that date was already obsolete in 2012 due to the changed scope of the game). With the caveat that for some reasons - especially of technical nature - this time might have to be extended. Such an extension is happening at the moment. Time treshold atm is 2016 (Squadron 42) and sometime in 2017 (PU).
Interesting that many HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL crowdfunding game projects went beyond the estimated date without problems and were still celebrated by gamers and the press. e.g.
"After the postponement of the original release date from October 2013,
it was released on September 19, 2014. An enhanced version of the game,
named Wasteland 2: Director's Cut, was released on October 13, 2015."
Therefore it is my opinion that Star Citizen DOES represent an example for the Treshhold Pledge System type of crowdfunding campaigns.
Have fun
Sorry but this is ridiculous, this is just an extremely weak stretch to try and make a term fit. Just because you have outdated, non-functional examples that could possibly fit a term providing you dimmed the lights, squinted and peeked through your fingers does not mean most people would see it that way. Outlying cases are not used as the commonly perceived definition.
I fail to see the relevancy of bringing up WS2. Can you elaborate?
... pre-orders and if you can't see that I dunno what to tell you.
You could start be realizing that this is YOUR personal opinion.
And others have different opinions.
And that there is an on-going debate wether crowdfunding pledges are the same as pre-orders. And that there are points of view in this debate that may not be the same as YOUR point of view.
order (an item of merchandise) before it is available, with the understanding that it will be shipped later.
noun
noun: pre-order
1.
an order for an item that has not yet been made commercially available.
I guess you still don't understand the word pledge.
It's not the same word as order.
Call it pre-pledge, if that makes you feel better.
But you haven't ordered anything - you've pledged your support for something you'd like to see without any kind of guarentee that it's going to be delivered as you imagine it to be.
Seriously though. No, because none of those things were part of our discussion. We were talking about what the definition of "pledge" was, not the definition of success.
... pre-orders and if you can't see that I dunno what to tell you.
You could start be realizing that this is YOUR personal opinion.
And others have different opinions.
And that there is an on-going debate wether crowdfunding pledges are the same as pre-orders. And that there are points of view in this debate that may not be the same as YOUR point of view.
Have fun
You're correct. But giving facts aren't going to change people's minds. There are 3 terms that are getting confused.
I'll explain it once then I got stuff to do.
pledge
plej/
noun
2.
LAW
a thing that is given as security for the fulfillment of a contract or the payment of a debt and is liable to forfeiture in the event of failure.
This is what you are doing on the website/kickstarter. You are giving money in return for a product or service. There is a kickstarter contract that states if you don't receive your items that you are entitled to a refund, this is why.
pre·or·der
priˈôrdər/
verb
1.
order (an item of merchandise) before it is available, with the understanding that it will be shipped later.
noun
1.
an order for an item that has not yet been made commercially available.
This is also what you are doing from the kickstarter/website except most pre-orders have a set release date.
Now the term that's getting confused.
do·na·tion
dōˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money.
This is what people are getting confused with a pledge. You are not giving them money for nothing, you are expecting items/services in return. Again kickstarter has these rules in place.
Like I said it's a pre-order with no set release date. I can't change people minds, nor want to, but facts are facts. Players want this game to live up to the hype and promises and are overlooking the greed. Anyway I can't explain it any better, this isn't my opinion but facts. Calling it something else doesn't make it what it isn't, in this case a pre-order with no release date.
We were discussing pledges and definitions of pledges.
I posted a definition from the Treshold Pledge System (Star Citizen being of that type).
You claimed that Star Citizen is not included in this group due to missed tresholds.
I gave an example of a similar successful game (Wasteland 2) that falls under this category despite having experienced treshold delay (same as Star Citizen is experiencing now).
This is what you are doing on the website/kickstarter. You are giving money in return for a product or service. There is a kickstarter contract that states if you don't receive your items that you are entitled to a refund, this is why.
Too bad that at the end of a failed crowdfunding project there is usually no money left to refund (i am not speaking about intentional fraud here ... i talk about teams that fail despite their best efforts, as has happened in the past).
Which makes this definition not really applicable to crowdfunding projects.
This is what you are doing on the website/kickstarter. You are giving money in return for a product or service. There is a kickstarter contract that states if you don't receive your items that you are entitled to a refund, this is why.
Too bad that at the end of a failed crowdfunding project there is usually no money left to refund (i am not speaking about intentional fraud here ... i talk about teams that fail despite their best efforts, as has happened in the past).
Which makes this definition not really applicable to crowdfunding projects.
Have fu
Actually you are completely wrong.
If a failed crowdfunding project happens all backers are entitled to a full refund. I know this as I started kickstarters before, hell if it doesn't get funded it doesn't even take money from your account.
Look at the INSANE prices on stuff and the fact that players BOUGHT it!!!
You ARE familiar with the principle of CROWDFUNDING , are you not ?
Where people VOLUNTARILY give money for a project ? Some more than others .
Have fun
Not everyone understands, no. A large number of people believe/understand they are "buying", that they "have bought". A large number of those who spent $500+ believe the size of their commitments should be reflective of their starting position in the finished product. There are consistent examples of this sentiment on the RSI forums and the reddit.
These products, as crowdfunded mmos, need a big sign stapled to the front page, before you see any pretty graphics or promises, which reads, "When you give us money it is a gift, you'll be lucky if we deliver anything matching your expectation, and we have a right to deliver nothing but a detailed list how we spent your money."
@rapatpamp ;In case you have not heard it yet - many crowdfunding projects have 10k$ or 15 k$ pledge levels. SC is no exception.
And the crowdfunding campaign for SC is still ongoing. It is not "in the past". If you meant Kickstarter .... That amounts to less than 2% of the money gathered for SC so far.
And even during the Kickstarter campaign we knew what was in the pledge package. Operative word here being "pledge". NOT pre-order. One does not "pre-order" in a crowdfunding campaign.
Have fun
And pledging a kickstarter works like this.
Pay $X amount and you receive said game and all applicable goals. You pledge without knowing what will actually be there or if it'll reach it's goals.
Now pre-ordering is giving $X for the listed items.
For instance I pre-ordered Battleborn and I know what I'm getting, if it didn't tell me what was included I'd be pledging money in hope the project turns out good.
Calling an apple an orange doesn't not make it an apple after all.
The website are pre-orders and if you can't see that I dunno what to tell you.
I actually feel sorry for people buying into this, the writings on the wall. Hell $15K and you don't even get everything in-game, you should recieve everything ever released for that price. That should be a red flag but people have these blinders on and can't see 2 feet in front of them.
Anyway this will affect gaming as a whole and it's looking very bleak. Reminds me of Mortal Kombat. When it came out the big fuss over blood and gore and now we have ratings on games. SC is going to change things but I really have no hope for the better.
SO they're pre-orders because you know what reward you get for meeting a specific pledge tier in their campaign? That's not a very strong argument.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If a failed crowdfunding project happens all backers are entitled to a full refund. I know this as I started kickstarters before, hell if it doesn't get funded it doesn't even take money from your account.
Have fun.
"Entitled" does not mean that people REALLY get their money back. You cannot refund something you do not have anymore. And if people still demand it, the team/person will usually declare bankruptcy.
"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their
project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include
offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other
actions to satisfy backers"
This is what you are doing on the website/kickstarter. You are giving money in return for a product or service. There is a kickstarter contract that states if you don't receive your items that you are entitled to a refund, this is why.
Too bad that at the end of a failed crowdfunding project there is usually no money left to refund (i am not speaking about intentional fraud here ... i talk about teams that fail despite their best efforts, as has happened in the past).
Which makes this definition not really applicable to crowdfunding projects.
Have fun
Well it might be a blessing in disguise that Roberts spent all that money on the crap he did so at least here will be some assets to sell off to help recoup some of the money that is going to be lost once this thing goes tits up.
They could do it in conjunction with Pawn Stars or Beverly Hills Pawn where Roberts takes in his 16K coffee maker tells his sad story and gives the history of it and get offered 5K for it. But 5K divided by all the backers isnt going to be a lot per person.
EDIT: Actually Sandi would do the pawning because then she would have another 'acting' credit to add to her resume'
... pre-orders and if you can't see that I dunno what to tell you.
You could start be realizing that this is YOUR personal opinion.
And others have different opinions.
And that there is an on-going debate wether crowdfunding pledges are the same as pre-orders. And that there are points of view in this debate that may not be the same as YOUR point of view.
Have fun
You're correct. But giving facts aren't going to change people's minds. There are 3 terms that are getting confused.
I'll explain it once then I got stuff to do.
pledge
plej/
noun
2.
LAW
a thing that is given as security for the fulfillment of a contract or the payment of a debt and is liable to forfeiture in the event of failure.
This is what you are doing on the website/kickstarter. You are giving money in return for a product or service. There is a kickstarter contract that states if you don't receive your items that you are entitled to a refund, this is why.
pre·or·der
priˈôrdər/
verb
1.
order (an item of merchandise) before it is available, with the understanding that it will be shipped later.
noun
1.
an order for an item that has not yet been made commercially available.
This is also what you are doing from the kickstarter/website except most pre-orders have a set release date.
Now the term that's getting confused.
do·na·tion
dōˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money.
This is what people are getting confused with a pledge. You are not giving them money for nothing, you are expecting items/services in return. Again kickstarter has these rules in place.
Like I said it's a pre-order with no set release date. I can't change people minds, nor want to, but facts are facts. Players want this game to live up to the hype and promises and are overlooking the greed. Anyway I can't explain it any better, this isn't my opinion but facts. Calling it something else doesn't make it what it isn't, in this case a pre-order with no release date.
This, actually, isn't the entire story. Your pledge is for the purpose of CIG "making a game", not distributing you a sold game. As a condition of your pledge, CIG agrees to ship you the game, waiving the cost of the game. You agree "what CIG delivers" might not match description, and might be nothing at all except a list of how they spent money. Your pledge is non-refundable after 14 days.
See, this is why I snap on Renfail. SoL uses, almost verbatim in specific sections, the same ToS. It is a crowdfunding ToS, it's for collecting funds toward the development of a project. It is specifically not a pre-order, because a pre-order comes with a defined product and the option for a refund if the product is not what is delivered, legally. Here, you waive the right to refund, that is not a pre-order, that is a "gift".
Here, have some money as a gift. "Thanks," says crowdfunding project person, "I might give you something later for it.".
As ive posted before.. call it what ever you want. I will follow my account and purchase receipt and that is a pre-order. Maybe they changed the wording since i brought in... but to me i brought into a product they have every intent on releasing once its ready and allowed me to pre-order.
I have every expectation of a finished product and think they will deliver a finished product.. which is why i pre-ordered after the free fly event around time of purchase. I don't consider myself as crowdfunding into a maybe.. but that is my personal view.
We were discussing pledges and definitions of pledges. I posted a definition from the Treshold Pledge System (Star Citizen being of that type). You claimed that Star Citizen is not included in this group due to missed tresholds. I gave an example of a similar successful game (Wasteland 2) that falls under this category despite having experienced treshold delay (same as Star Citizen is experiencing now). Evolution of a discussion.
Have fun
Nowhere did I say they had missed thresholds. I said that they did not have thresholds in the same way one would expect to see them on a kickstarter page.
Comments
Have fun
The basis of my quote comes from The Concise Oxford Dictionary
Pledge - Deposit as security, (one's honour, word etc)
Your example only works in the context of Kickstarter, Gofundme or some other crowdfunding platform. There are limits on the time in which a threshold must be passed otherwise the money is refunded.
Star Citizen's website does not have a threshold, not does it have an arbitrary date in which X amount of funds must be raised. Therefore it does not fulfill the pledge system outlined in your post.
It doesn't matter that "pre-order" is not mentioned, it is something that can be inferred, a parallel can be drawn between two examples, which is what I did.
https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
and here (older Kickstarter version)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description
A time treshold has also been named (and i am not speaking about the treshold for the Kickstarter level campaign ... that date was already obsolete in 2012 due to the changed scope of the game). With the caveat that for some reasons - especially of technical nature - this time might have to be extended. Such an extension is happening at the moment. Time treshold atm is 2016 (Squadron 42) and sometime in 2017 (PU).
Interesting that many HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL crowdfunding game projects went beyond the estimated date without problems and were still celebrated by gamers and the press. e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_2
"After the postponement of the original release date from October 2013, it was released on September 19, 2014. An enhanced version of the game, named Wasteland 2: Director's Cut, was released on October 13, 2015."
Therefore it is my opinion that Star Citizen DOES represent an example for the Treshhold Pledge System type of crowdfunding campaigns.
Have fun
Hopefully the ends will justify the means, but I certainly don't hope to see this sort of thing become any more of a trend than it already is.
Pay $X amount and you receive said game and all applicable goals. You pledge without knowing what will actually be there or if it'll reach it's goals.
Now pre-ordering is giving $X for the listed items.
For instance I pre-ordered Battleborn and I know what I'm getting, if it didn't tell me what was included I'd be pledging money in hope the project turns out good.
Calling an apple an orange doesn't not make it an apple after all.
The website are pre-orders and if you can't see that I dunno what to tell you.
I actually feel sorry for people buying into this, the writings on the wall. Hell $15K and you don't even get everything in-game, you should recieve everything ever released for that price. That should be a red flag but people have these blinders on and can't see 2 feet in front of them.
Anyway this will affect gaming as a whole and it's looking very bleak. Reminds me of Mortal Kombat. When it came out the big fuss over blood and gore and now we have ratings on games. SC is going to change things but I really have no hope for the better.
Sorry but this is ridiculous, this is just an extremely weak stretch to try and make a term fit.
Just because you have outdated, non-functional examples that could possibly fit a term providing you dimmed the lights, squinted and peeked through your fingers does not mean most people would see it that way. Outlying cases are not used as the commonly perceived definition.
I fail to see the relevancy of bringing up WS2. Can you elaborate?
Wasteland 2.
Crowdfunding.
Experienced legendary game developer.
Very successful game
High praise from the gaming press.
Took longer than estimated.
Pledge packages up to 10 k$.
Used Kickstarter.
See some analogies with Star Citizen ?
Have fun
And others have different opinions.
And that there is an on-going debate wether crowdfunding pledges are the same as pre-orders. And that there are points of view in this debate that may not be the same as YOUR point of view.
Have fun
It's not the same word as order.
Call it pre-pledge, if that makes you feel better.
But you haven't ordered anything - you've pledged your support for something you'd like to see without any kind of guarentee that it's going to be delivered as you imagine it to be.
I do indeed.
Seriously though. No, because none of those things were part of our discussion.
We were talking about what the definition of "pledge" was, not the definition of success.
I'll explain it once then I got stuff to do.
This is what you are doing on the website/kickstarter. You are giving money in return for a product or service. There is a kickstarter contract that states if you don't receive your items that you are entitled to a refund, this is why.
This is also what you are doing from the kickstarter/website except most pre-orders have a set release date.
Now the term that's getting confused.
something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money. "a tax-deductible donation of $200" synonyms: gift, contribution, present, pledge, handout, grant, offering; More
the action of donating something.
This is what people are getting confused with a pledge. You are not giving them money for nothing, you are expecting items/services in return. Again kickstarter has these rules in place.Like I said it's a pre-order with no set release date.
I can't change people minds, nor want to, but facts are facts. Players want this game to live up to the hype and promises and are overlooking the greed.
Anyway I can't explain it any better, this isn't my opinion but facts. Calling it something else doesn't make it what it isn't, in this case a pre-order with no release date.
We were discussing pledges and definitions of pledges.
I posted a definition from the Treshold Pledge System (Star Citizen being of that type).
You claimed that Star Citizen is not included in this group due to missed tresholds.
I gave an example of a similar successful game (Wasteland 2) that falls under this category despite having experienced treshold delay (same as Star Citizen is experiencing now).
Evolution of a discussion.
Have fun
Which makes this definition not really applicable to crowdfunding projects.
Have fun
If a failed crowdfunding project happens all backers are entitled to a full refund. I know this as I started kickstarters before, hell if it doesn't get funded it doesn't even take money from your account.
Have fun.
These products, as crowdfunded mmos, need a big sign stapled to the front page, before you see any pretty graphics or promises, which reads, "When you give us money it is a gift, you'll be lucky if we deliver anything matching your expectation, and we have a right to deliver nothing but a detailed list how we spent your money."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter
"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers"
Have fun
They could do it in conjunction with Pawn Stars or Beverly Hills Pawn where Roberts takes in his 16K coffee maker tells his sad story and gives the history of it and get offered 5K for it. But 5K divided by all the backers isnt going to be a lot per person.
EDIT: Actually Sandi would do the pawning because then she would have another 'acting' credit to add to her resume'
Have fun
Here, have some money as a gift. "Thanks," says crowdfunding project person, "I might give you something later for it.".
That is your agreement.
I have every expectation of a finished product and think they will deliver a finished product.. which is why i pre-ordered after the free fly event around time of purchase. I don't consider myself as crowdfunding into a maybe.. but that is my personal view.
http://i.imgur.com/lo4YtGx.jpg
Nowhere did I say they had missed thresholds.
I said that they did not have thresholds in the same way one would expect to see them on a kickstarter page.