I'm going to assume that when we talk about tab-targetting, we're not just talking about the method of targetting an enemy but also include hotbars with lots of skills. If I'm wrong then just ignore this because ultimately I don't really care about the aiming / targetting method, but I do care about character skills.
So, I'm a big fan of tab-targetting with loads of skills on hotbars. The reason? I feel it better simulates real life.
Lets take an example - dual-wielding melee dps with two axes. In a tab-target game, chances are I'm going to have 20-30 different attack skills, from single thrust, slashes, dual attacks, aoe on-handed, two handed, hamstringing, head attacks etc etc. In real life, there are 100s of different attacks I'd be able to make and tab-targetting attempts to simulate them through different skills.
With action combat, that all disappears. Generally, action combat games require you to manually aim, but vastly reduce the number of skills available. You have to focus more on movement and aiming, but far less on actually executing combat strategies. Also, you have massive limitations on user input. In the dual wield example, there doesn't exist an input system which will allow me to block with one arm whilst ducking and also riposting with my other arm. Complex movements just aren't possible to capture with mass market input devices like controllers / keyboards / joysticks.
The end result, for me, is that action combat games feel dull. Yeh, they're faster paced and require greater hand-eye co-ordination, but my brain just switches off because, intellectually, action combat is trivially easy.
Of course, a lot of tab-targetting games are also trivially easy too (im looking at you swtor!), but this is because the developers didn't think through their combat mechanics properly. Tab-targetting provides a platform that allows for really deep gameplay, but action combat really doesn't. The minute-to-minute action is extremely repetitive and just doesn't allow for deep gameplay.
Perhaps I've just never come across a decent action combat game before and so have never seen it done well.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I don't hate tab targeting, but I do think it's a bit antiquated.
That's because of why it originally came about, which I believe was due to the limited bandwidth available to the average user in the mid-late 90s. Dial-up was still a thing back then, and you couldn't realistically expect a truly dynamic movement and combat system to sync between client and server with that kind of technology, especially not when all players need to be updated when in close proximity.
Wrong, it was not about bandwidth, it was about how RPG have been. RPG combat at it's core is not about player's skill, it is about chance, all the best RPG before 3D RPG had turn based combat where player used to select skill and system decided whether the skill would hit or fail. That is how RPG have been, when developers chose to make 3D RPG and tried to attract veteran RPG players, they decided to go with tab target system because it is the closest to classic RPG combat system. RPG is all about building up players character, not about twitchy combat.
I'm afraid your opinion isn't fact.
Doesn't make much sense, either
Let me make it more simple for you : If you play any D&D or any other kind of pen and paper RPG do you hack and slash your enemies? No, it is the role of dice. You chose your skill and rolled dice, whether the skill hits or fails or critically fails or critically hits etc, all depends on that roll of dice. If enemy attacked, players again had to roll the dice to see if the attack is fail or success or critical or mortal blow etc. RPG combat is about chance, not about player skill. And to emulate this system developers who made graphical RPG, used a turn based combat system, look at final fantasy series. Time changed, fast forward there are 3D games every where and it needed another system which looks flashy but it also had to make veteran RPG players feel at home, thus tab target combat was introduced.
It is up to you to think what you like, you can continue to claim it is not fact, i am in no obligation to correct you.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I'm going to assume that when we talk about tab-targetting, we're not just talking about the method of targetting an enemy but also include hotbars with lots of skills. If I'm wrong then just ignore this because ultimately I don't really care about the aiming / targetting method, but I do care about character skills.
So, I'm a big fan of tab-targetting with loads of skills on hotbars. The reason? I feel it better simulates real life.
Lets take an example - dual-wielding melee dps with two axes. In a tab-target game, chances are I'm going to have 20-30 different attack skills, from single thrust, slashes, dual attacks, aoe on-handed, two handed, hamstringing, head attacks etc etc. In real life, there are 100s of different attacks I'd be able to make and tab-targetting attempts to simulate them through different skills.
With action combat, that all disappears. Generally, action combat games require you to manually aim, but vastly reduce the number of skills available. You have to focus more on movement and aiming, but far less on actually executing combat strategies. Also, you have massive limitations on user input. In the dual wield example, there doesn't exist an input system which will allow me to block with one arm whilst ducking and also riposting with my other arm. Complex movements just aren't possible to capture with mass market input devices like controllers / keyboards / joysticks.
The end result, for me, is that action combat games feel dull. Yeh, they're faster paced and require greater hand-eye co-ordination, but my brain just switches off because, intellectually, action combat is trivially easy.
Of course, a lot of tab-targetting games are also trivially easy too (im looking at you swtor!), but this is because the developers didn't think through their combat mechanics properly. Tab-targetting provides a platform that allows for really deep gameplay, but action combat really doesn't. The minute-to-minute action is extremely repetitive and just doesn't allow for deep gameplay.
Perhaps I've just never come across a decent action combat game before and so have never seen it done well.
As you have said, action combat doesn't feel like real action at all. So many times i played action combat games and i thought i could do so much more within this specific time frame if it were up to me just like your example of blocking and riposting. To me action combat always felt like hindrance than excitement.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
From a healers perspective, a tabbed targeting game is just a mini game of raid frames, clicking on each one and casting spells. in WoW I use healbot and for 80% of the time i am raiding in hellfire citadel, my game play consists of clicking on raid frames and casting spells, with the odd movement required and action to do if a boss does something specific to me. People are getting bored of this "mini game" style and tabbed targeting games MMO's like Wildstar tried to change that but failed miserably. They even said in their trailer "no one wants to play a boring raid frame minigame". Obviously they where wrong as Wildstar is now slowing loosing players and WoW still has over 5 Million subs. Another reason action healing is taking over is for console gameplay. Take a look at Overwatch for example, that has healing characters but is not tabbed. The gameplay has been designed so it is both consol and pc friendly with minimal skills and no raid frames for healing. I think overwatch gives the perfect example of how action healing can be done properly.
From a healers perspective, a tabbed targeting game is just a mini game of raid frames, clicking on each one and casting spells. in WoW I use healbot and for 80% of the time i am raiding in hellfire citadel, my game play consists of clicking on raid frames and casting spells, with the odd movement required and action to do if a boss does something specific to me. People are getting bored of this "mini game" style and tabbed targeting games MMO's like Wildstar tried to change that but failed miserably. They even said in their trailer "no one wants to play a boring raid frame minigame". Obviously they where wrong as Wildstar is now slowing loosing players and WoW still has over 5 Million subs. Another reason action healing is taking over is for console gameplay. Take a look at Overwatch for example, that has healing characters but is not tabbed. The gameplay has been designed so it is both consol and pc friendly with minimal skills and no raid frames for healing. I think overwatch gives the perfect example of how action healing can be done properly.
How would you say overwatch healing system work in a WoW raid?
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
From a healers perspective, a tabbed targeting game is just a mini game of raid frames, clicking on each one and casting spells. in WoW I use healbot and for 80% of the time i am raiding in hellfire citadel, my game play consists of clicking on raid frames and casting spells, with the odd movement required and action to do if a boss does something specific to me. People are getting bored of this "mini game" style and tabbed targeting games MMO's like Wildstar tried to change that but failed miserably. They even said in their trailer "no one wants to play a boring raid frame minigame". Obviously they where wrong as Wildstar is now slowing loosing players and WoW still has over 5 Million subs. Another reason action healing is taking over is for console gameplay. Take a look at Overwatch for example, that has healing characters but is not tabbed. The gameplay has been designed so it is both consol and pc friendly with minimal skills and no raid frames for healing. I think overwatch gives the perfect example of how action healing can be done properly.
As primarily a healer in MMO's I enjoy healing as Mercy very much in Overwatch.
Personally, I just don't find tab-targeting engaging enough to keep me interested. There's nothing wrong with it, but it seems to me to easily become predictable once you work out the optimal rotations and such.
It's nice when I'm in the mood for something chill I guess. More often than not though, I'll prefer a more action-oriented type of game.
I don't hate tab targeting, but I do think it's a bit antiquated.
That's because of why it originally came about, which I believe was due to the limited bandwidth available to the average user in the mid-late 90s. Dial-up was still a thing back then, and you couldn't realistically expect a truly dynamic movement and combat system to sync between client and server with that kind of technology, especially not when all players need to be updated when in close proximity.
Wrong, it was not about bandwidth, it was about how RPG have been. RPG combat at it's core is not about player's skill, it is about chance, all the best RPG before 3D RPG had turn based combat where player used to select skill and system decided whether the skill would hit or fail. That is how RPG have been, when developers chose to make 3D RPG and tried to attract veteran RPG players, they decided to go with tab target system because it is the closest to classic RPG combat system. RPG is all about building up players character, not about twitchy combat.
I disagree. To me, RPG has always been about the choice/consequence dynamic and freedom of interaction with the game world.
Dice rolling is just a combat mechanic that fits the tabletop platform, which in my opinion has nothing to do with what RPG means. I mean, you could easily play an entire D&D campaign with no combat at all, run a political or cityscape campaign where you progress through dialogue.
As an alternative to dice rolling for tabletop D&D, you could even set up a small toy shooting range or play darts to determine your hits in combat, to introduce an element of player skill if that's called for.
Personally, I just don't find tab-targeting engaging enough to keep me interested. There's nothing wrong with it, but it seems to me to easily become predictable once you work out the optimal rotations and such.
It's nice when I'm in the mood for something chill I guess. More often than not though, I'll prefer a more action-oriented type of game.
I don't hate tab targeting, but I do think it's a bit antiquated.
That's because of why it originally came about, which I believe was due to the limited bandwidth available to the average user in the mid-late 90s. Dial-up was still a thing back then, and you couldn't realistically expect a truly dynamic movement and combat system to sync between client and server with that kind of technology, especially not when all players need to be updated when in close proximity.
Wrong, it was not about bandwidth, it was about how RPG have been. RPG combat at it's core is not about player's skill, it is about chance, all the best RPG before 3D RPG had turn based combat where player used to select skill and system decided whether the skill would hit or fail. That is how RPG have been, when developers chose to make 3D RPG and tried to attract veteran RPG players, they decided to go with tab target system because it is the closest to classic RPG combat system. RPG is all about building up players character, not about twitchy combat.
I disagree. To me, RPG has always been about the choice/consequence dynamic and freedom of interaction with the game world.
Dice rolling is just a combat mechanic that fits the tabletop platform, which in my opinion has nothing to do with what RPG means. I mean, you could easily play an entire D&D campaign with no combat at all, run a political or cityscape campaign where you progress through dialogue.
As an alternative to dice rolling for tabletop D&D, you could even set up a small toy shooting range or play darts to determine your hits in combat, to introduce an element of player skill if that's called for.
All of your points are valid, but i was talking about RPG combat specifically in a very traditional term friend . I was stating why tab target was chosen for 3D RPG combat over action combat and is still dominant. You can go to twitch.tv and see many people playing table top or pen and paper RPG with dice rolls as basis for combat, huge majority of RPG players are still accustomed to it.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Personally, I just don't find tab-targeting engaging enough to keep me interested. There's nothing wrong with it, but it seems to me to easily become predictable once you work out the optimal rotations and such.
It's nice when I'm in the mood for something chill I guess. More often than not though, I'll prefer a more action-oriented type of game.
I don't hate tab targeting, but I do think it's a bit antiquated.
That's because of why it originally came about, which I believe was due to the limited bandwidth available to the average user in the mid-late 90s. Dial-up was still a thing back then, and you couldn't realistically expect a truly dynamic movement and combat system to sync between client and server with that kind of technology, especially not when all players need to be updated when in close proximity.
Wrong, it was not about bandwidth, it was about how RPG have been. RPG combat at it's core is not about player's skill, it is about chance, all the best RPG before 3D RPG had turn based combat where player used to select skill and system decided whether the skill would hit or fail. That is how RPG have been, when developers chose to make 3D RPG and tried to attract veteran RPG players, they decided to go with tab target system because it is the closest to classic RPG combat system. RPG is all about building up players character, not about twitchy combat.
I disagree. To me, RPG has always been about the choice/consequence dynamic and freedom of interaction with the game world.
Dice rolling is just a combat mechanic that fits the tabletop platform, which in my opinion has nothing to do with what RPG means. I mean, you could easily play an entire D&D campaign with no combat at all, run a political or cityscape campaign where you progress through dialogue.
As an alternative to dice rolling for tabletop D&D, you could even set up a small toy shooting range or play darts to determine your hits in combat, to introduce an element of player skill if that's called for.
All of your points are valid, but i was talking about RPG combat specifically in a very traditional term friend . I was stating why tab target was chosen for 3D RPG combat over action combat and is still dominant. You can go to twitch.tv and see many people playing table top or pen and paper RPG with dice rolls as basis for combat, huge majority of RPG players are still accustomed to it.
Thank you, and you're not wrong. Dice rolling is a popular system for RPG's for a reason, it's solid and easily replaces complex simulations. It's no wonder RPG videogames adopted a dice rolling mechanic paired with easy targeting, especially with things like skill-checks outside of combat.
It seems I am one of the few who still prefers tab targeting. Let me get this out of the way whether you believe me or not. I am really good at action combat in mmos like Tera! I am extremely fast and accurate with action combat and FPSers so that is not an issue. I am proficient in both keyboards and controllers. I do enjoy combat action but not in my big open world mmos.
What I find is that I will at times put long sessions into mmos. I will play for hours at a time. I will admit I have put 8 to 12 hours into sessions without much of a break accept for bio breaks. on an occasion I enjoy doing that and getting lost in the game world. I really appreciate good action combat. I think Tera is one of the best, C9 does it really well, and I give credit to Vindictus. These game do give a visceral feel to combat that is satisfying.
What I hear in the game reporting world is tab targeting should be dead and that no mmo should have it any more. That tab targeting is antiquated and the tone is those of us who like it just don't get it. The main reason I prefer tab targeting in mmos is the sheer amount of time I can put in a session. The wear and tear of even 4+ hours of action combat can cause real issues with hands and arms. I was starting to develop carpal tunnel syndrome while playing Tera. I recently was playing Black Desert Online and the carpal tunnel began to return. So while I hope action combat is a choice and gets better I also hope developers of future big scale open world mmos (if there will be anymore) will consider a tab targeting or a hybrid combat system over a pure action combat. My muscles and joints can not take it and I hope to be playing mmos for the rest of my life. While I still got the moves my joints and muscle just can not take it during a long play session with action combat.
Honestly it sounds like your problem is not gaming but you need a proper setup at your computer desk. A properly ergonomic setup will alleviate most of those issues with sore arms/hands and potential carpal tunnel. Also working out those muscles so they're stronger will help quite a bit as well.
I work at a computer all day at work and do a lot of typing and clicking constantly, but after an 8 hour day I am perfectly fine. I even play a few hours sometimes of gaming and still am fine. But I do both of the above to ensure I don't get sore. I also don't game as long as you do, though and I take breaks both at work and at home.
It's just all about healthy gaming. Take care of yourself properly and you won't have issues with sore muscles after long gaming hours. It's not an action combat problem, it's just you pushing your body beyond what it wants to do without proper precautions taken to prevent injury.
From a healers perspective, a tabbed targeting game is just a mini game of raid frames, clicking on each one and casting spells. in WoW I use healbot and for 80% of the time i am raiding in hellfire citadel, my game play consists of clicking on raid frames and casting spells, with the odd movement required and action to do if a boss does something specific to me. People are getting bored of this "mini game" style and tabbed targeting games MMO's like Wildstar tried to change that but failed miserably. They even said in their trailer "no one wants to play a boring raid frame minigame". Obviously they where wrong as Wildstar is now slowing loosing players and WoW still has over 5 Million subs. Another reason action healing is taking over is for console gameplay. Take a look at Overwatch for example, that has healing characters but is not tabbed. The gameplay has been designed so it is both consol and pc friendly with minimal skills and no raid frames for healing. I think overwatch gives the perfect example of how action healing can be done properly.
How would you say overwatch healing system work in a WoW raid?
Having raid healed in TERA back when they actually had raids and challenging ones at that, I can say it was a ton of fun. The most fun I've had in MMO PvE healing was hands down the first few years of TERA, where they had both an amazing combat system and fun, challenging boss fights.
It seems I am one of the few who still prefers tab targeting. Let me get this out of the way whether you believe me or not. I am really good at action combat in mmos like Tera! I am extremely fast and accurate with action combat and FPSers so that is not an issue. I am proficient in both keyboards and controllers. I do enjoy combat action but not in my big open world mmos.
What I find is that I will at times put long sessions into mmos. I will play for hours at a time. I will admit I have put 8 to 12 hours into sessions without much of a break accept for bio breaks. on an occasion I enjoy doing that and getting lost in the game world. I really appreciate good action combat. I think Tera is one of the best, C9 does it really well, and I give credit to Vindictus. These game do give a visceral feel to combat that is satisfying.
What I hear in the game reporting world is tab targeting should be dead and that no mmo should have it any more. That tab targeting is antiquated and the tone is those of us who like it just don't get it. The main reason I prefer tab targeting in mmos is the sheer amount of time I can put in a session. The wear and tear of even 4+ hours of action combat can cause real issues with hands and arms. I was starting to develop carpal tunnel syndrome while playing Tera. I recently was playing Black Desert Online and the carpal tunnel began to return. So while I hope action combat is a choice and gets better I also hope developers of future big scale open world mmos (if there will be anymore) will consider a tab targeting or a hybrid combat system over a pure action combat. My muscles and joints can not take it and I hope to be playing mmos for the rest of my life. While I still got the moves my joints and muscle just can not take it during a long play session with action combat.
Honestly it sounds like your problem is not gaming but you need a proper setup at your computer desk. A properly ergonomic setup will alleviate most of those issues with sore arms/hands and potential carpal tunnel. Also working out those muscles so they're stronger will help quite a bit as well.
I work at a computer all day at work and do a lot of typing and clicking constantly, but after an 8 hour day I am perfectly fine. I even play a few hours sometimes of gaming and still am fine. But I do both of the above to ensure I don't get sore. I also don't game as long as you do, though and I take breaks both at work and at home.
It's just all about healthy gaming. Take care of yourself properly and you won't have issues with sore muscles after long gaming hours. It's not an action combat problem, it's just you pushing your body beyond what it wants to do without proper precautions taken to prevent injury.
Muscle and joint pain is something I deal with too. I'm 46 and been playing PC games hardcore since 95. Before that it was apple PC games, commodore, arcade, atari etc etc. Even with my body in shape these types of issues are just a matter of age combined with abuse sitting at the computer. Proper setup helps but can't fight getting old. I know 46 isn't really that old but if you combine that with hours upon hours sitting in front of a computer screen it really does add up.
I think people who use the term antiquated for tab systems are funny as reticule aiming has been around in gaming longer than tab targeting. I think aiming with a reticule is so 20 years ago. We need to find a new way to direct our avatars. As for tabbing, some people don't like twitch gaming. I game to relax, having to direct every single pixel of action for my avatar is just not fun for me and the genre shows that a lot of other people feel the same way. I think that is why it is still around.
To avoid getting a bad habit with one game I am now playing WoW as a new hunter and I use my mouse to click on the target instead of tab targetting so that when I leave WoW for another game I do not have any problems targetting.
I think people who use the term antiquated for tab systems are funny as reticule aiming has been around in gaming longer than tab targeting. I think aiming with a reticule is so 20 years ago. We need to find a new way to direct our avatars. As for tabbing, some people don't like twitch gaming. I game to relax, having to direct every single pixel of action for my avatar is just not fun for me and the genre shows that a lot of other people feel the same way. I think that is why it is still around.
Most action combat games don't require twitch aiming skill or amazing reflexes actually. It's just a different style of play but most aren't super hard - take TERA, Neverwinter, ESO, etc. Heck even games like Vindictus and Black Desert aren't bad, either. I'd say something like Blade and Soul requires reflexes only in terms of getting combos off because they only last a few seconds, but aiming is auto target like tab targeting and the need to react quickly to changing situations is the same sort of thing you'd see in a WoW arena too, so it's really no different.
Dark Souls is a very popular game and it has lock on targeting, but you also do combat without locking on occasionally for good reasons. Its not that tab targeting or locking on is a bad thing but it needs to help the gameplay mechanic or make it practical. In Dark Souls the camera would ruin the game if you couldn't lock on and most of the finesse in fighting is timing attacks and dodges not simple point and shoot. Its not like locking on or targeting is a huge advantage, some people don't use it much at all as it makes your movements predictable and half the time you're running away from something for a few seconds in the middle of a fight.
Generally speaking. if the game is twitch-action based, like the skill with your characters movements and attacks/aiming are where the game is at, then the game probably should NOT use auto targeting. But if the game is more about the strategy of what abilities to use and when, not necessarily inside a quarter of a second window, then tab targeting is fine.
Tab targetting is actually better overall for the publishers, at least in terms of profits.
On games like wow it's not uncommon to see people with 2-4 alts, they have to pay to use all those. That kind of play is a lot harder on target mmorpg titles.
Action combat in grindy games is mind numbing. I don't feel like dancing the same dance over and over.
One thing I hate about MMORPG these days is not enough situational combat. Not reaction situations but places where your character can exploit a weakness of NPC. Let fire mage roast ice creatures or be weak against them. Let crowd control and slows help with fast moving creatures.
Rotation is boring. Just shows situations are predictable and repoducable. Get rid of that and I don't care if it's tab target or action.
I don't think there is necessarily HATE for tab targeting, It's just that so many MMOs feel too similar in combat.
I personally returned to WoW to check some stuff out and the new(ish) combat mechanics really feel fresh compared to pre Wrath. I also think FFXIV has made some decent strides to shake up the tedium of tab targeting combat (in the later levels anyways).
That said, Being a Monster Hunter fan, I usually prefer action combat. Sometimes though I like to play WoW/FFXIV because I can relax and have a beer and catch a buzz without having to have awesome precision lol. That's just what I need after a long week of work.
Monster Hunter since '04! Currently playing: MHW & MHGU
For me, I don't like tab targeting. I know some have said it feels more realistic to them, but I highly disagree. Having 100s of skills for a weapon is not realistic even if we are talking fantasy, in which case it's not realistic at all. You would be surprised how limiting using an actual weapon can be. Many of the things done in games, are simply not possible in real life.
Now of course this goes the same for even action combat, but to say it's more realistic to have a ton of skills isn't really true. That isn't a very good argument.
For me, I like action combat more simple because it gives more control over the character. When I role play, I like to put myself in the position of the character. That requires me to feel like, I am in control. While tab targeting feels more like I am just playing a character that is disconnected from me.
The other reason I don't like tab targeting is simply because it has no place to exist in the future of gaming unless we stick to the same thing. What I mean by this is, with the emerging new technologies such as VR ... tab targeting simply will not work well. If you want to make a game where people use VR and literally take the place of the character, you have to make sure it feels like they are in control. If you don't it can be very disorienting, and be a terrible experience.
Something else that some people who are for tab targeting give as an argument is that the game shouldn't be about player skills, but the character's skills. I actually agree, but my argument against that is that you can still do it in a action combat game. Does a character have a very low agility? Then just make it so they can't dodge as fast. Yes, player skills will always have some factor, but that really goes for all games, even tab targeting.
For me, I don't like tab targeting. I know some have said it feels more realistic to them, but I highly disagree. Having 100s of skills for a weapon is not realistic even if we are talking fantasy, in which case it's not realistic at all. You would be surprised how limiting using an actual weapon can be. Many of the things done in games, are simply not possible in real life.
Now of course this goes the same for even action combat, but to say it's more realistic to have a ton of skills isn't really true. That isn't a very good argument.
For me, I like action combat more simple because it gives more control over the character. When I role play, I like to put myself in the position of the character. That requires me to feel like, I am in control. While tab targeting feels more like I am just playing a character that is disconnected from me.
The other reason I don't like tab targeting is simply because it has no place to exist in the future of gaming unless we stick to the same thing. What I mean by this is, with the emerging new technologies such as VR ... tab targeting simply will not work well. If you want to make a game where people use VR and literally take the place of the character, you have to make sure it feels like they are in control. If you don't it can be very disorienting, and be a terrible experience.
Something else that some people who are for tab targeting give as an argument is that the game shouldn't be about player skills, but the character's skills. I actually agree, but my argument against that is that you can still do it in a action combat game. Does a character have a very low agility? Then just make it so they can't dodge as fast. Yes, player skills will always have some factor, but that really goes for all games, even tab targeting.
and you think action combat would actually be a thing in VR? aside from turning around and aiming i'm betting it'll be lots of menues.. people cba to move around that much.
Comments
I had fun once, it was terrible.
So, I'm a big fan of tab-targetting with loads of skills on hotbars. The reason? I feel it better simulates real life.
Lets take an example - dual-wielding melee dps with two axes. In a tab-target game, chances are I'm going to have 20-30 different attack skills, from single thrust, slashes, dual attacks, aoe on-handed, two handed, hamstringing, head attacks etc etc. In real life, there are 100s of different attacks I'd be able to make and tab-targetting attempts to simulate them through different skills.
With action combat, that all disappears. Generally, action combat games require you to manually aim, but vastly reduce the number of skills available. You have to focus more on movement and aiming, but far less on actually executing combat strategies. Also, you have massive limitations on user input. In the dual wield example, there doesn't exist an input system which will allow me to block with one arm whilst ducking and also riposting with my other arm. Complex movements just aren't possible to capture with mass market input devices like controllers / keyboards / joysticks.
The end result, for me, is that action combat games feel dull. Yeh, they're faster paced and require greater hand-eye co-ordination, but my brain just switches off because, intellectually, action combat is trivially easy.
Of course, a lot of tab-targetting games are also trivially easy too (im looking at you swtor!), but this is because the developers didn't think through their combat mechanics properly. Tab-targetting provides a platform that allows for really deep gameplay, but action combat really doesn't. The minute-to-minute action is extremely repetitive and just doesn't allow for deep gameplay.
Perhaps I've just never come across a decent action combat game before and so have never seen it done well.
It is up to you to think what you like, you can continue to claim it is not fact, i am in no obligation to correct you.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
It's nice when I'm in the mood for something chill I guess. More often than not though, I'll prefer a more action-oriented type of game.
I disagree. To me, RPG has always been about the choice/consequence dynamic and freedom of interaction with the game world.
Dice rolling is just a combat mechanic that fits the tabletop platform, which in my opinion has nothing to do with what RPG means. I mean, you could easily play an entire D&D campaign with no combat at all, run a political or cityscape campaign where you progress through dialogue.
As an alternative to dice rolling for tabletop D&D, you could even set up a small toy shooting range or play darts to determine your hits in combat, to introduce an element of player skill if that's called for.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I work at a computer all day at work and do a lot of typing and clicking constantly, but after an 8 hour day I am perfectly fine. I even play a few hours sometimes of gaming and still am fine. But I do both of the above to ensure I don't get sore. I also don't game as long as you do, though and I take breaks both at work and at home.
It's just all about healthy gaming. Take care of yourself properly and you won't have issues with sore muscles after long gaming hours. It's not an action combat problem, it's just you pushing your body beyond what it wants to do without proper precautions taken to prevent injury.
I think people who use the term antiquated for tab systems are funny as reticule aiming has been around in gaming longer than tab targeting. I think aiming with a reticule is so 20 years ago. We need to find a new way to direct our avatars.
As for tabbing, some people don't like twitch gaming. I game to relax, having to direct every single pixel of action for my avatar is just not fun for me and the genre shows that a lot of other people feel the same way. I think that is why it is still around.
Dark Souls is a very popular game and it has lock on targeting, but you also do combat without locking on occasionally for good reasons. Its not that tab targeting or locking on is a bad thing but it needs to help the gameplay mechanic or make it practical. In Dark Souls the camera would ruin the game if you couldn't lock on and most of the finesse in fighting is timing attacks and dodges not simple point and shoot. Its not like locking on or targeting is a huge advantage, some people don't use it much at all as it makes your movements predictable and half the time you're running away from something for a few seconds in the middle of a fight.
Generally speaking. if the game is twitch-action based, like the skill with your characters movements and attacks/aiming are where the game is at, then the game probably should NOT use auto targeting. But if the game is more about the strategy of what abilities to use and when, not necessarily inside a quarter of a second window, then tab targeting is fine.
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
MMORPGs PvE has to be the most simplistic combat I have encountered.
On games like wow it's not uncommon to see people with 2-4 alts, they have to pay to use all those. That kind of play is a lot harder on target mmorpg titles.
One thing I hate about MMORPG these days is not enough situational combat. Not reaction situations but places where your character can exploit a weakness of NPC. Let fire mage roast ice creatures or be weak against them. Let crowd control and slows help with fast moving creatures.
Rotation is boring. Just shows situations are predictable and repoducable. Get rid of that and I don't care if it's tab target or action.
I personally returned to WoW to check some stuff out and the new(ish) combat mechanics really feel fresh compared to pre Wrath. I also think FFXIV has made some decent strides to shake up the tedium of tab targeting combat (in the later levels anyways).
That said, Being a Monster Hunter fan, I usually prefer action combat. Sometimes though I like to play WoW/FFXIV because I can relax and have a beer and catch a buzz without having to have awesome precision lol. That's just what I need after a long week of work.
Monster Hunter since '04!
Currently playing: MHW & MHGU
Now of course this goes the same for even action combat, but to say it's more realistic to have a ton of skills isn't really true. That isn't a very good argument.
For me, I like action combat more simple because it gives more control over the character. When I role play, I like to put myself in the position of the character. That requires me to feel like, I am in control. While tab targeting feels more like I am just playing a character that is disconnected from me.
The other reason I don't like tab targeting is simply because it has no place to exist in the future of gaming unless we stick to the same thing. What I mean by this is, with the emerging new technologies such as VR ... tab targeting simply will not work well. If you want to make a game where people use VR and literally take the place of the character, you have to make sure it feels like they are in control. If you don't it can be very disorienting, and be a terrible experience.
Something else that some people who are for tab targeting give as an argument is that the game shouldn't be about player skills, but the character's skills. I actually agree, but my argument against that is that you can still do it in a action combat game. Does a character have a very low agility? Then just make it so they can't dodge as fast. Yes, player skills will always have some factor, but that really goes for all games, even tab targeting.
I had fun once, it was terrible.