I personally believe there is a place for both. A few mmos have given options. Wildstar and GW2 to be exact. If you love the action style combat aiming like Tera, you can set that. If you prefer the tab target version. They have a semi- tab target system. I think we can definitely improve on this. If an mmo comes out in the future that offers both systems (without having a disadvantage to one system) it will yield a much larger population imo. I've always been a fan of options.
I also believe both systems have their place. People who say that Action combat or tab target have no place in future mmos are narrow minded. Both systems are enjoyable and bring something different to the table. Just my .02 cents.
I can play either system, tab targeting doesn't turn me off from a game, as long as there are other elements to hold my attention, such as interesting content, good stories etc.. IN matters of preference though, most implementations would fall into the bottom of my list. As they just don't feel tactical enough to make me feel it was anything I did that won the fight (IN most forms of PVE). I just hit a couple buttons and it's over, it just feels automated..
Fair enough. I for the most part agree with you. As I do enjoy action combat. I just don't agree with absolutes. One way or the other. There is room for both. Even in the same mmo (if implemented from the get go and not an after thought).
Lets say you are the main assist. There are multiple mobs that all look the same that got pulled into a tight group on top of each other. There is one specific named mob in the bunch you should be attacking so the others can be mezzed.
Lets say you are the main assist. There are multiple mobs that all look the same that got pulled into a tight group on top of each other. There is one specific named mob in the bunch you should be attacking so the others can be mezzed.
How do you target the named?
Target the one that looks different? If they all look the same (except a small label on top of its head), then it is a bad game design anyway.
I play D3 and it is pretty easy to target the elite/champions since you can SEE where they are.
Lets say you are the main assist. There are multiple mobs that all look the same that got pulled into a tight group on top of each other. There is one specific named mob in the bunch you should be attacking so the others can be mezzed.
How do you target the named?
Well the mobs should not 'get pulled into a tight group on top of each other' neither should players be able to stack up on each other. There should be a concept of position and some attention to geometry and facing. Maybe that means that some players are unable to attack the 'named' with a mellee weapon because there is a mob in the way that must be dealt with first.
While I am on the topic AoEs and multi-target attacks should attack all targets in the area, friend and foe alike.
I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though. Because of network/dail-up and hardware limitations. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but action combat mmos also require strategy, statistics and in some cases dice rolls. They just made some of the automated systems (blocking, dodging etc) in the hands of the player instead of a RNG roll. A lot of people prefer this. Personally, tanking in Tera is so much more satisfying then any tab target mmo i've tanked in. I'm sure i'm not alone in thinking this.
The last part of your comment. All I can say is that they weren't forgotten. It's just they've evolved to make the game more interactive. I can't tank in Tera and eat a sandwich like I can in a tab target mmo. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy eating my sandwiches in tab target mmos. But that doesn't somehow make them more tactical and cunning than when I have to actively position a boss, deal with their mechanics and physically block instead of relying on static numbers.
I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though. Because of network/dail-up and hardware limitations. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but action combat mmos also require strategy, statistics and in some cases dice rolls...
There were online multiplayer games with action or aimed combat before there was ever a tab target mmorpg. Those limitations didn't keep them down.
TSW Vet here, TSW tried this and the system is still in the game. you can actually turn on a Reticle for use during combat. Upside, DPS, if you get the hang of it. The Reticle allows you to blow through mobs quickly since you don't have to Tab Cycle to the target you want. Downside, everything else. When tanking generally you get to see giant monster crotch, and when healing if you accidentally mouse over another player your tank is no longer getting the heals.
I do like the idea of having Tab targeting be a option for players. I have no problem with Action combat, some games knock it out of the park. But once and awhile in a Dungeon you just want to lock onto the target and not worry about it.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though.
MMO can and should learn from single player games. In fact, The Division is a good example. Pretty much single player/online cover shooter mechanics in a MMO.
I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though. Because of network/dail-up and hardware limitations. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but action combat mmos also require strategy, statistics and in some cases dice rolls...
There were online multiplayer games with action or aimed combat before there was ever a tab target mmorpg. Those limitations didn't keep them down.
Multiplayer games are not mmos. I would think a vet like yourself would know better than to try to use that as an argument. I had action games on my NES. Doesn't mean they would of worked with a large open world with thousands of players in it. I'm starting to get the impression you just like to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Lets say you are the main assist. There are multiple mobs that all look the same that got pulled into a tight group on top of each other. There is one specific named mob in the bunch you should be attacking so the others can be mezzed.
How do you target the named?
Target the one that looks different? If they all look the same (except a small label on top of its head), then it is a bad game design anyway.
I play D3 and it is pretty easy to target the elite/champions since you can SEE where they are.
How do you target the named. You can't just say I "target the one that looks different" ...how? You click on it? Or maybe in the game you don't have to have it targeted? you just fire an arrow in its direction on the screen? That is the kind of thing that has been mentioned.
Even if it looks different mobs are all in a pile aggroing the puller. Or there is something in your way. Or any other variety of situations could arise.
The thing is, you have to be able to target a single mob out of a large group and not hit any others...while their limbs are flailing, they are moving back and forth etc etc. (granted, with most games today you can just zerg and ae and cc isn't really a thing...but,) targeting, whether by tabing or clicking ...which is what we are talking about. Clicking on it is just a simpler implementation of tab targeting. All the games you can tab target you can click on it as well.
Having the mobs name in a target window. Has a use. There is a reason for it. It isn't just an outdated game design feature.
Honestly, I would say that games that don't require you to single target a mob like that are poorly designed.
Could there be a better way? Probably. I haven't read any good solutions here. The way it is works.
It is much more necessary in games that require CC. Is that the reason why so many in this thread don't seem to see the benefit? Hardly any games are difficult enough to need a lot of CC anymore. I'm guessing that is an underlying factor in this discussion.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Eh, what? What do action games, RPG's, or how long they were around have to do with it? My statement he was agreeing with was in reference to trying to pull off the elements you find in turn-based combat, akin to what you find in CRPGs, in a real-time MMO environment. I don't think the translation works as well as turn-based systems do. Hence why it feels as though something they settled for, that's an opinion... so it was certainly the issue for me....
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I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though. Because of network/dail-up and hardware limitations. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but action combat mmos also require strategy, statistics and in some cases dice rolls...
There were online multiplayer games with action or aimed combat before there was ever a tab target mmorpg. Those limitations didn't keep them down.
Multiplayer games are not mmos. I would think a vet like yourself would know better than to try to use that as an argument. I had action games on my NES. Doesn't mean they would of worked with a large open world with thousands of players in it. I'm starting to get the impression you just like to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. In every topic I've ever seen you in, it doesn't matter how asinine your argument, you have to respond.
Tab targeting was not a tech issue, because the tech was there. There were online games like Battlefield with 64 players developed in the late 90s, and action combat is far less demanding than that without all the hitbox/hit detection issues. AoC for instance had a form of action combat that gave aimed abilities that was more fast paced, but circumvented the need for excessive 3d calculations and so forth. That effectively made it more like a tab target game from a networking standpoint. They needed to know your position, the mobs, your heading and the ability you used, all of the same data that a tab-targeting game required.
Does that mean old hardware and low bandwidth connection would have facilitated the most sophisticated action combat in 2016 (because I know that is where you will go next - extreme examples), no, it quite obviously wouldn't have. That doesn't mean some form of action gameplay that was more dependent on player positioning, movement and faster paced combat would not have been possible. It just wasn't their goal.
Its quite obvious tab targeting was the evolution of turn based games, but that isn't just an opinion, its documented and was statedly their objective. Global cooldowns were actually originally put in to simulate the turns from turn based RPGs.
Action and tab targeting have different gameplay objectives and I don't know how anyone can miss that.
This style of combat is extremely mentally challenging and takes a ton of player skill to master. You win by being clever (as well gear, group choices, strategy etc). Plus, you still have all the movement thrown in as well.
Compare this to action combat. The movement side of combat is ramped up, as is the need to aim, so your motor-skills are increased. But, there is minimal player decisions needed to be made. With only a few skills to choose from, there are minimal choices to be made and the choices are limited, making it extremely easy. In EVERY action combat game I've ever played, I've mentally mastered rotations and tactics within about 5 minutes, the rest is all about improving my motor skills so that I can aim quickly / accurately or dodge quickly. Mentally, this style of combat is awful.
This is where we differ. I've mastered tab target PvP games within 5 minutes as you don't have to play the game to understand what things do. Just read the skill info and your set.
Where as in FPS PvP there is so much more to think about to master it.
The basics are what weapon to use for the best situations, which is on par with what skill to use and when in tab target games.
On top of that you have to learn the maps/arenas. Where do the best items spawn, choke points etc. Thinking about where to be is vital in action games and you have to be thinking constantly about it. Thinking about your positioning in tab target games is basic.
Sound also plays a huge part in mastering FPS action games which is non existent in tab based games. A pro Quake player will know where you are just by the sounds your making as they've learnt what weapons,powers ups, ammo etc sounds like when picked up by the player and where they are on the map.
Thinking about sound in tab target games is non existent.
I've just scratched the surface. But for me personally there's a lot more 'homework' involved when trying to master Quake over any tab target game. There are a lot more different things to think about than what skills/weapon/skills and when.
Original Guild Wars was the best tab-targeting by far!! So many spells, options, builds.. mind blowing combinations.... no grind, just play.. and now the game has almost gone... the PVP is an almost empty arena and that is it..
If it were up to me there would always be a good tab-targeting game such as this forever.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
This style of combat is extremely mentally challenging and takes a ton of player skill to master. You win by being clever (as well gear, group choices, strategy etc). Plus, you still have all the movement thrown in as well.
Compare this to action combat. The movement side of combat is ramped up, as is the need to aim, so your motor-skills are increased. But, there is minimal player decisions needed to be made. With only a few skills to choose from, there are minimal choices to be made and the choices are limited, making it extremely easy. In EVERY action combat game I've ever played, I've mentally mastered rotations and tactics within about 5 minutes, the rest is all about improving my motor skills so that I can aim quickly / accurately or dodge quickly. Mentally, this style of combat is awful.
This is where we differ. I've mastered tab target PvP games within 5 minutes as you don't have to play the game to understand what things do. Just read the skill info and your set.
Where as in FPS PvP there is so much more to think about to master it.
The basics are what weapon to use for the best situations, which is on par with what skill to use and when in tab target games.
On top of that you have to learn the maps/arenas. Where do the best items spawn, choke points etc. Thinking about where to be is vital in action games and you have to be thinking constantly about it. Thinking about your positioning in tab target games is basic.
Sound also plays a huge part in mastering FPS action games which is non existent in tab based games. A pro Quake player will know where you are just by the sounds your making as they've learnt what weapons,powers ups, ammo etc sounds like when picked up by the player and where they are on the map.
Thinking about sound in tab target games is non existent.
I've just scratched the surface. But for me personally there's a lot more 'homework' involved when trying to master Quake over any tab target game. There are a lot more different things to think about than what skills/weapon/skills and when.
why don't we have both system in 1 game?
i think its not impossible since tab target is similar to assisted target (aim bot? lol)
i wan to see this 2 most skillful player battle each other and see who win
This style of combat is extremely mentally challenging and takes a ton of player skill to master. You win by being clever (as well gear, group choices, strategy etc). Plus, you still have all the movement thrown in as well.
Compare this to action combat. The movement side of combat is ramped up, as is the need to aim, so your motor-skills are increased. But, there is minimal player decisions needed to be made. With only a few skills to choose from, there are minimal choices to be made and the choices are limited, making it extremely easy. In EVERY action combat game I've ever played, I've mentally mastered rotations and tactics within about 5 minutes, the rest is all about improving my motor skills so that I can aim quickly / accurately or dodge quickly. Mentally, this style of combat is awful.
This is where we differ. I've mastered tab target PvP games within 5 minutes as you don't have to play the game to understand what things do. Just read the skill info and your set.
Where as in FPS PvP there is so much more to think about to master it.
The basics are what weapon to use for the best situations, which is on par with what skill to use and when in tab target games.
On top of that you have to learn the maps/arenas. Where do the best items spawn, choke points etc. Thinking about where to be is vital in action games and you have to be thinking constantly about it. Thinking about your positioning in tab target games is basic.
Sound also plays a huge part in mastering FPS action games which is non existent in tab based games. A pro Quake player will know where you are just by the sounds your making as they've learnt what weapons,powers ups, ammo etc sounds like when picked up by the player and where they are on the map.
Thinking about sound in tab target games is non existent.
I've just scratched the surface. But for me personally there's a lot more 'homework' involved when trying to master Quake over any tab target game. There are a lot more different things to think about than what skills/weapon/skills and when.
Sounds to me like you missed the original Guild Wars when it was active.
It was just as challenging as quake but in a different way, because you could only bring 8 spells into combat with hundreds to choose from.... there was also no grind so the game was entirely based from player skill. You had to test, and practice, and many expansions came.. making it always possible to be the only person in the game to have MORE THAN ONE totally winning strategy that becomes the next flavor of the month for the sheep.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
i think its not impossible since tab target is similar to assisted target (aim bot? lol)
i wan to see this 2 most skillful player battle each other and see who win
You could but what I've mentioned does work a lot better in instanced PvP 1v1, 2v2, 4v4 etc. I don't know how it would work in open world MMO PvP.
And trying to balance classes so they can be competitive in any situation is hard. It took Starcraft a few years to perfect it and that was just three races.
I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though. Because of network/dail-up and hardware limitations. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but action combat mmos also require strategy, statistics and in some cases dice rolls...
There were online multiplayer games with action or aimed combat before there was ever a tab target mmorpg. Those limitations didn't keep them down.
Multiplayer games are not mmos. I would think a vet like yourself would know better than to try to use that as an argument. I had action games on my NES. Doesn't mean they would of worked with a large open world with thousands of players in it. I'm starting to get the impression you just like to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. In every topic I've ever seen you in, it doesn't matter how asinine your argument, you have to respond.
Tab targeting was not a tech issue, because the tech was there. There were online games like Battlefield with 64 players developed in the late 90s, and action combat is far less demanding than that without all the hitbox/hit detection issues. AoC for instance had a form of action combat that gave aimed abilities that was more fast paced, but circumvented the need for excessive 3d calculations and so forth. That effectively made it more like a tab target game from a networking standpoint. They needed to know your position, the mobs, your heading and the ability you used, all of the same data that a tab-targeting game required.
Does that mean old hardware and low bandwidth connection would have facilitated the most sophisticated action combat in 2016 (because I know that is where you will go next - extreme examples), no, it quite obviously wouldn't have. That doesn't mean some form of action gameplay that was more dependent on player positioning, movement and faster paced combat would not have been possible. It just wasn't their goal.
Its quite obvious tab targeting was the evolution of turn based games, but that isn't just an opinion, its documented and was statedly their objective. Global cooldowns were actually originally put in to simulate the turns from turn based RPGs.
Action and tab targeting have different gameplay objectives and I don't know how anyone can miss that.
When speaking of the evolution from turn-based games it goes through MUD. MUD had a tick/heartbeat which restricted you to one ability per tick and all spells with a casting time happened after the server-wide tick took place. Global cooldown has a similar function except it happens individually for players instead of being a server-wide tick like in MUD.
It has nothing to do with tab-target.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I play RPG to role play and socialize. Though during more challenging encounters you are quite active. I play FPS/Action games for the non-stop action and hence no socialization whatsoever. Tab target is representative of pen and paper RPG. Doesn't matter how masterfully tossed the dice, the success depends on the die roll.
I could agree if most tab targeting systems offered a strategic layer of play, sadly most do not. It's simply a rotation you learn and repeat for the most part, and in most games.
Turn based systems are a much better representation of RPG dice rolls, MMORPG tab targeting just feels like a system they settled for to me. Not the ideal system for the genre itself.
You make a good point. I also think tab targeting systems were in place due to limitations of technology in the early mmo years. The thing is, a lot of people have conditioned themselves into thinking tab target is synonymous with mmos. So there will always be a market for it. The genre is big enough now that we can honestly have both systems. So, it's not really a bad thing imo.
That was actually never the issue. There were action games as far back as there were RPGs.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
Yes there were action single player games. There were not action combat mmos though. Because of network/dail-up and hardware limitations. I know this might be hard for you to understand, but action combat mmos also require strategy, statistics and in some cases dice rolls...
There were online multiplayer games with action or aimed combat before there was ever a tab target mmorpg. Those limitations didn't keep them down.
Multiplayer games are not mmos. I would think a vet like yourself would know better than to try to use that as an argument. I had action games on my NES. Doesn't mean they would of worked with a large open world with thousands of players in it. I'm starting to get the impression you just like to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. In every topic I've ever seen you in, it doesn't matter how asinine your argument, you have to respond.
Tab targeting was not a tech issue, because the tech was there. There were online games like Battlefield with 64 players developed in the late 90s, and action combat is far less demanding than that without all the hitbox/hit detection issues. AoC for instance had a form of action combat that gave aimed abilities that was more fast paced, but circumvented the need for excessive 3d calculations and so forth. That effectively made it more like a tab target game from a networking standpoint. They needed to know your position, the mobs, your heading and the ability you used, all of the same data that a tab-targeting game required.
Does that mean old hardware and low bandwidth connection would have facilitated the most sophisticated action combat in 2016 (because I know that is where you will go next - extreme examples), no, it quite obviously wouldn't have. That doesn't mean some form of action gameplay that was more dependent on player positioning, movement and faster paced combat would not have been possible. It just wasn't their goal.
Its quite obvious tab targeting was the evolution of turn based games, but that isn't just an opinion, its documented and was statedly their objective. Global cooldowns were actually originally put in to simulate the turns from turn based RPGs.
Action and tab targeting have different gameplay objectives and I don't know how anyone can miss that.
When speaking of the evolution from turn-based games it goes through MUD. MUD had a tick/heartbeat which restricted you to one ability per tick and all spells with a casting time happened after the server-wide tick took place. Global cooldown has a similar function except it happens individually for players instead of being a server-wide tick like in MUD.
It has nothing to do with tab-target.
tab target is pretty similar with isometic mmorpg with point and click (see dota 2, ragnarok online). With auto attack and lock target
Sounds to me like you missed the original Guild Wars when it was active.
It was just as challenging as quake but in a different way, because you could only bring 8 spells into combat with hundreds to choose from.... there was also no grind so the game was entirely based from player skill. You had to test, and practice, and many expansions came.. making it always possible to be the only person in the game to have MORE THAN ONE totally winning strategy that becomes the next flavor of the month for the sheep.
I bypassed that one.
That's where I do find the challenge in RPGs, the character building part. I'd love to see an RPG that doesn't actually explain what the skills do, you'd have to play and experiment a lot more to understand them.
You could build a character so bad it's already lost before you enter combat.
Sounds to me like you missed the original Guild Wars when it was active.
It was just as challenging as quake but in a different way, because you could only bring 8 spells into combat with hundreds to choose from.... there was also no grind so the game was entirely based from player skill. You had to test, and practice, and many expansions came.. making it always possible to be the only person in the game to have MORE THAN ONE totally winning strategy that becomes the next flavor of the month for the sheep.
I bypassed that one.
That's where I do find the challenge in RPGs, the character building part. I'd love to see an RPG that doesn't actually explain what the skills do, you'd have to play and experiment a lot more to understand them.
You could build a character so bad it's already lost before you enter combat.
Yeah you would have loved this game!! Random Arena is still going but to be honest it would be almost hopeless as a new player because only the pros keep playing it.. and the population is too low for other people to carry you. If you did manage to win a match, chances are that they will join the next few matches with a build designed to destroy yours.
There was a brief description for every spell but until you used it and learned... you didn't really know what it was capable of.. and what was more important was how you compliment some of your skills with other skills..
This game was so complex.. very mind-boggling.. and the very best builds that people came up with always became out of date because it was only a matter of time when the rest of the people would learn how to counter it (or else it would get nerfed) so there was only real God mode when you took the risks of using shitty spells and finding a combination that works and stumble upon something nobody has tried. The people who just copied the winners would always be a step behind these people as new flavors of the month came.
Player skill dominated . .. you had to become familiar with not only hundreds of spells, but also all of the builds that people have effectively come up with.
With player skill you were able to win, despite how bad your team was at times, and if you were really good at the game, you could come up with a build that works for every single spell that nobody uses.
So for example, lets say you are a pro and like the idea of a spell that everyone thinks is shitty... you can find a build to make this spell effective and because of the most complex rock, paper, scissors type of strategy you could always find a way to win, whether it be grouping with other people who compliment your build, or just understand your role and play it whenever its needed..
Creating your own effective builds in this game was truly epic. To this day I am the only person who made several builds dominate because I never shared them.. several times stuff that I came up with was nerfed but they didn't nerf everything...!
The first time soloing a group of people is pretty epic too.
edit: Also there is always a PVP buff that changes every few months to make the seemingly once impossible builds possible. And old pros returning to the game will totally cry if you just come up with the best builds for the current PVP buff. So you can win people who are wayyy more skilled than you as long as you take the risk of coming up with the best current builds and more importantly of course be able to use them well.
oh yeah... whenever I say spell I may mean a sword attack or another skill.
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Comments
How do you target the named?
I play D3 and it is pretty easy to target the elite/champions since you can SEE where they are.
While I am on the topic AoEs and multi-target attacks should attack all targets in the area, friend and foe alike.
Tab targeting and RPG combat is based on statistics, strategy and of course, dice rolls. The idea was that the game would focus more on playing out the story and meanwhile, advancing your character. It was more mental and about cunning rather than player dexterity.
These are things that everyone seems to have forgotten, including the people making rpgs and mmorpgs.
The last part of your comment. All I can say is that they weren't forgotten. It's just they've evolved to make the game more interactive. I can't tank in Tera and eat a sandwich like I can in a tab target mmo. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy eating my sandwiches in tab target mmos. But that doesn't somehow make them more tactical and cunning than when I have to actively position a boss, deal with their mechanics and physically block instead of relying on static numbers.
I do like the idea of having Tab targeting be a option for players. I have no problem with Action combat, some games knock it out of the park. But once and awhile in a Dungeon you just want to lock onto the target and not worry about it.
Because i can.
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How do you target the named. You can't just say I "target the one that looks different" ...how? You click on it? Or maybe in the game you don't have to have it targeted? you just fire an arrow in its direction on the screen? That is the kind of thing that has been mentioned.
Even if it looks different mobs are all in a pile aggroing the puller. Or there is something in your way. Or any other variety of situations could arise.
The thing is, you have to be able to target a single mob out of a large group and not hit any others...while their limbs are flailing, they are moving back and forth etc etc. (granted, with most games today you can just zerg and ae and cc isn't really a thing...but,) targeting, whether by tabing or clicking ...which is what we are talking about. Clicking on it is just a simpler implementation of tab targeting. All the games you can tab target you can click on it as well.
Having the mobs name in a target window. Has a use. There is a reason for it. It isn't just an outdated game design feature.
Honestly, I would say that games that don't require you to single target a mob like that are poorly designed.
Could there be a better way? Probably. I haven't read any good solutions here. The way it is works.
It is much more necessary in games that require CC. Is that the reason why so many in this thread don't seem to see the benefit? Hardly any games are difficult enough to need a lot of CC anymore. I'm guessing that is an underlying factor in this discussion.
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Tab targeting was not a tech issue, because the tech was there. There were online games like Battlefield with 64 players developed in the late 90s, and action combat is far less demanding than that without all the hitbox/hit detection issues. AoC for instance had a form of action combat that gave aimed abilities that was more fast paced, but circumvented the need for excessive 3d calculations and so forth. That effectively made it more like a tab target game from a networking standpoint. They needed to know your position, the mobs, your heading and the ability you used, all of the same data that a tab-targeting game required.
Does that mean old hardware and low bandwidth connection would have facilitated the most sophisticated action combat in 2016 (because I know that is where you will go next - extreme examples), no, it quite obviously wouldn't have. That doesn't mean some form of action gameplay that was more dependent on player positioning, movement and faster paced combat would not have been possible. It just wasn't their goal.
Its quite obvious tab targeting was the evolution of turn based games, but that isn't just an opinion, its documented and was statedly their objective. Global cooldowns were actually originally put in to simulate the turns from turn based RPGs.
Action and tab targeting have different gameplay objectives and I don't know how anyone can miss that.
Where as in FPS PvP there is so much more to think about to master it.
The basics are what weapon to use for the best situations, which is on par with what skill to use and when in tab target games.
On top of that you have to learn the maps/arenas. Where do the best items spawn, choke points etc. Thinking about where to be is vital in action games and you have to be thinking constantly about it. Thinking about your positioning in tab target games is basic.
Sound also plays a huge part in mastering FPS action games which is non existent in tab based games. A pro Quake player will know where you are just by the sounds your making as they've learnt what weapons,powers ups, ammo etc sounds like when picked up by the player and where they are on the map.
Thinking about sound in tab target games is non existent.
I've just scratched the surface. But for me personally there's a lot more 'homework' involved when trying to master Quake over any tab target game. There are a lot more different things to think about than what skills/weapon/skills and when.
If it were up to me there would always be a good tab-targeting game such as this forever.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
i think its not impossible since tab target is similar to assisted target (aim bot? lol)
i wan to see this 2 most skillful player battle each other and see who win
It was just as challenging as quake but in a different way, because you could only bring 8 spells into combat with hundreds to choose from.... there was also no grind so the game was entirely based from player skill. You had to test, and practice, and many expansions came.. making it always possible to be the only person in the game to have MORE THAN ONE totally winning strategy that becomes the next flavor of the month for the sheep.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
And trying to balance classes so they can be competitive in any situation is hard. It took Starcraft a few years to perfect it and that was just three races.
It has nothing to do with tab-target.
That's where I do find the challenge in RPGs, the character building part. I'd love to see an RPG that doesn't actually explain what the skills do, you'd have to play and experiment a lot more to understand them.
You could build a character so bad it's already lost before you enter combat.
There was a brief description for every spell but until you used it and learned... you didn't really know what it was capable of.. and what was more important was how you compliment some of your skills with other skills..
This game was so complex.. very mind-boggling.. and the very best builds that people came up with always became out of date because it was only a matter of time when the rest of the people would learn how to counter it (or else it would get nerfed) so there was only real God mode when you took the risks of using shitty spells and finding a combination that works and stumble upon something nobody has tried. The people who just copied the winners would always be a step behind these people as new flavors of the month came.
Player skill dominated . .. you had to become familiar with not only hundreds of spells, but also all of the builds that people have effectively come up with.
With player skill you were able to win, despite how bad your team was at times, and if you were really good at the game, you could come up with a build that works for every single spell that nobody uses.
So for example, lets say you are a pro and like the idea of a spell that everyone thinks is shitty... you can find a build to make this spell effective and because of the most complex rock, paper, scissors type of strategy you could always find a way to win, whether it be grouping with other people who compliment your build, or just understand your role and play it whenever its needed..
Creating your own effective builds in this game was truly epic. To this day I am the only person who made several builds dominate because I never shared them.. several times stuff that I came up with was nerfed but they didn't nerf everything...!
The first time soloing a group of people is pretty epic too.
edit: Also there is always a PVP buff that changes every few months to make the seemingly once impossible builds possible. And old pros returning to the game will totally cry if you just come up with the best builds for the current PVP buff. So you can win people who are wayyy more skilled than you as long as you take the risk of coming up with the best current builds and more importantly of course be able to use them well.
oh yeah... whenever I say spell I may mean a sword attack or another skill.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA