They're immature people (mentally, not physically) who have no lives except for their gaming lives. In the real world they're No-one, but in their gaming world they're Someone. They do the petty, spiteful things to people in online games that others do to them in real life. They're nobody you'd want to be friends with in real life!
This.
Of course, there are very kind and helpful players, but they are mostly in their guilds being kind and helping out and you see them less often in the general pug population with a relatively higher incidence of running into these "immature" people who get kicked from their guilds for trolling guild chat, etc.
I think we should get away from talking about snowflakes and instead talk about toxicity.
but talking about snowflakes is fun because its often the people who call others snowflakes who are themselves being snowflakes!
anyway fair enough
that does not preclude those "others" to be snowflakes too. In fact, what is wrong being a snowflake? Everyone here is probably a snowflake one way or another.
I never forget there is a real person behind the avatar.
isn't that the real reason to be mean and toxic online since there is no consequences to do it in a game, compared to doing it in the real world?
When i headshot some toons in planetside 2, i very much can taste the pain & anger behind the avatar, and that is why it is more fun than headshoting some NPCs in Sniper Elite.
And for all those who are going to deny that is what they like, they are just not as honest as me.
I never forget there is a real person behind the avatar.
isn't that the real reason to be mean and toxic online since there is no consequences to do it in a game, compared to doing it in the real world?
When i headshot some toons in planetside 2, i very much can taste the pain & anger behind the avatar, and that is why it is more fun than headshoting some NPCs in Sniper Elite.
And for all those who are going to deny that is what they like, they are just not as honest as me.
All I can say is not everyone has your same motivations. I don't enjoy killing other players, so I don't play games where offensive attacks are the focus.
Sure, I'll gladly do home defense of my guilds territory, but when they start going off on long distance campaigns for the lulls I stay behind.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never forget there is a real person behind the avatar.
isn't that the real reason to be mean and toxic online since there is no consequences to do it in a game, compared to doing it in the real world?
When i headshot some toons in planetside 2, i very much can taste the pain & anger behind the avatar, and that is why it is more fun than headshoting some NPCs in Sniper Elite.
And for all those who are going to deny that is what they like, they are just not as honest as me.
All I can say is not everyone has your same motivations. I don't enjoy killing other players, so I don't play games where offensive attacks are the focus.
Sure, I'll gladly do home defense of my guilds territory, but when they start going off on long distance campaigns for the lulls I stay behind.
Of course not. We all enjoy different things. But given how gaming & forums are toxic, you can't deny there are many who enjoy a good offensive, received by some poor soul sitting in front of their computer far far away.
Lately i've gotten back into ESO on PS4 and this return was to play the new expansion and i've been playing for a few weeks now. I've made some new friends joined some guilds but noticed most of these people are more casual players which is fine with me i get bored and play other games.
I've also noticed the more hardcore players that are just randoms and these are the people i worry about when doing dungeons of any sort. and the reason behind this is when i see players that are CP 630 i can tell they are powerful players but also most of them tend to be pricks to anyone lower CP to them. 9 out of 10 times in vet dungeons they will complain that you are not good enough to run with them and they will vote to kick you sometimes by the time you load into the dungeon they have already voted to kick you. this ends up making you wait 10+ minutes before you get to que again.
I got kicked out of two pledge runs in the same day by three CP630 players before we even got started fighting. i'm CP281 and i know most dungeons and i'm constantly working on improving my gear and stats and i do run with guildies when some are online but not all the time so i'm kind of at the mercy of playing with more random people.
I guess when people play long enough to reach CP630 they get a change of attitude towards lower players and all. as for being a lower cp player some of us have major issues with being treated this way seeing how not all of us have the time others do to get to CP630 and do trials and all and i for one don't wanna spend my time being kicked from groups and to wait awhile to re-que up.
I've also now started worrying more about being kicked out of dungeons then actually completing the dungeons which i think is just frigging sad.
does anyone else have a gripe about these kinds of things in MMO games ?
Not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in the other 9 pages but MMO progression over the years have allowed it to become a social experience + game when originally it was mostly just a game. Dealing with the stench of BO and playing against others in the now classic arcade I guess could be categorized as social but this is on a much larger scale that includes people from every corner of the earth + all walks of life. It is the evolution of games and just like society has both good and bad parts. The best you can hope for is to experience more of the good stuff.
When I started playing MMOs 16 years ago there was a far greater level of anonymity for players than there is now with the commonplace voice chats and social media. Somehow in those days there were fewer toxic players. From my own experience, the "anonymity = toxicity" argument is invalid. The trend I observed over the years was as the MMOs became more mainstream and more accessible/enjoyable to everyone (not just the original niche audience from the pre-WoW era) the ratio of toxic players increased at the same rate.
I'm not blaming World of Warcraft. The genre would have eventually went in that direction to attract new players even if Blizzard never made a MMO.
What's happening is the same as with any fanbase. I'll use sports teams as an example. When the team is either new or not winning they usually have a small but loyal group of good fans. Once that team gets good, wins championships, and becomes popular more people join the fanbase. Some of them are not true fans but do so just to jump on the bandwagon to try to look cool and fit in. These fans are typically more of the toxic type than not. It's the same with MMOs. The more popular they become the more fake bandwagon toxic people they attract. It's an unfortunate side effect of success.
When I started playing MMOs 16 years ago there was a far greater level of anonymity for players than there is now with the commonplace voice chats and social media. Somehow in those days there were fewer toxic players. From my own experience, the "anonymity = toxicity" argument is invalid. The trend I observed over the years was as the MMOs became more mainstream and more accessible/enjoyable to everyone (not just the original niche audience from the pre-WoW era) the ratio of toxic players increased at the same rate.
I'm not blaming World of Warcraft. The genre would have eventually went in that direction to attract new players even if Blizzard never made a MMO.
What's happening is the same as with any fanbase. I'll use sports teams as an example. When the team is either new or not winning they usually have a small but loyal group of good fans. Once that team gets good, wins championships, and becomes popular more people join the fanbase. Some of them are not true fans but do so just to jump on the bandwagon to try to look cool and fit in. These fans are typically more of the toxic type than not. It's the same with MMOs. The more popular they become the more fake bandwagon toxic people they attract. It's an unfortunate side effect of success.
While I have noticed the same thing (started in '96 myself) I am wondering if the smaller servers back then didn't have a bigger impact. While there were no such things as voice chats and social media you tended to learn to know the other players and if you acted like a jerk you would become a social outcast only being able to play with other jerks.
Today we have mega servers or cross server dungeons, you might very well never see the people you team up with again and that brings out the worst in some people.
Not to mention that MMORPGs in the late 90s were a small community over all, particularly before EQ and Lineage, we were maybe a million players worldwide in UO, the Realm, Meridian 59 and a couple more back then. A small subculture tend to be friendlier to eachother.
Still, I believe that it seems far worse then it is because these people are really loud, you don't need that many people to make a community feel hostile if they shout a lot. It is harder to notice regular nice people. In the old days most of them would leave the game since no-one wanted to play with them and soloing was rare back then and took skill so they basically would pay $15 for a text chat to whine in. Others rerolled and learned to keep their mouths shut terminating the problem as well.
One thing I think MMOs should get rid off is the need and greed mechanics, it really bring out the worst in some people and it is better to just give individual loot and allow full guild groups using master loot as option. It is that together with whining on the healer that I myself seen creating most issues and moaning.
One thing I think MMOs should get rid off is the need and greed mechanics, it really bring out the worst in some people and it is better to just give individual loot and allow full guild groups using master loot as option.
D3 and wow (before i left) gives individual loot and that does not eliminate toxicity. There are plenty of things to argue about beyond loot. In fact, people don't even argue .. they curse, and then vote-kick/rage-quit.
And why would MMOs want to get rid of it. It is not like toxicity will make a game unpopular. Otherwise, LoL won't still be around.
I've known people in real life who were normal, fairly grounded, but turned into insufferable d-bags when they logged into their MMO of choice. Why did they do it? 'cause they could without accountability.
I don't think the conflict in most mmorpgs is meaningful. Why? Because the game worlds in most mmorpgs are static. Player choices do not effect or change the game world in a potentially lasting or permanent way. The amount of wealth, resources, and equipment are infinite. Territory does not exchange ownership or control. No one really dies. Players and npcs/mobs respawn. Characters do not need to eat, therefore food production isn't necessary. So control of land doesn't mean as much. Building is not important for a variety of reasons. Characters don't need to sleep or require shelter from foul weather. There is no weight or encumbrance, so storage is not usually a problem. Trade and economics is not important because of universal auction houses and npc vendors that sell most things players need. Politics and diplomacy are not important because players can't be rule or be in charge of anything except for guilds. There are more reasons, but those are some of the most important. The things that produce meaningful conflict in the real world are not present in most mmorpgs.
And because the conflict is not meaningful, neither is the cooperation.
Those would be some amazing mmorpg mechanics.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
All games have toxic players. Try playing some maden or NHL online. I quit playing because people would control the goalie and skate up ice just to initiate a goalie fight
I don't think the conflict in most mmorpgs is meaningful. Why? Because the game worlds in most mmorpgs are static. Player choices do not effect or change the game world in a potentially lasting or permanent way. The amount of wealth, resources, and equipment are infinite. Territory does not exchange ownership or control. No one really dies. Players and npcs/mobs respawn. Characters do not need to eat, therefore food production isn't necessary. So control of land doesn't mean as much. Building is not important for a variety of reasons. Characters don't need to sleep or require shelter from foul weather. There is no weight or encumbrance, so storage is not usually a problem. Trade and economics is not important because of universal auction houses and npc vendors that sell most things players need. Politics and diplomacy are not important because players can't be rule or be in charge of anything except for guilds. There are more reasons, but those are some of the most important. The things that produce meaningful conflict in the real world are not present in most mmorpgs.
And because the conflict is not meaningful, neither is the cooperation.
Those would be some amazing mmorpg mechanics.
Which actually exist in one form or another in MMORPGs such as EVE, WURM, DF and are promised in Life is Feudal, COE, and several others.
News flash, most gamers are not looking for life simulators and aren't looking for realistic toilet mechanics.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
beyond that games are built on competition. The vast majority of people want to win. Some never want to lose. I believe the later make up your pve toxicity.
Your pvp toxicity comes form ultra competitiveness and poor winners.
Convenience is a community killer. When it is easy to find teammates and replace them or easy to do contents alone, people behave more toxic. When there is no incentive to be nice, humankind drops the kind part and goes all human.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I don't think the conflict in most mmorpgs is meaningful. Why? Because the game worlds in most mmorpgs are static. Player choices do not effect or change the game world in a potentially lasting or permanent way. The amount of wealth, resources, and equipment are infinite. Territory does not exchange ownership or control. No one really dies. Players and npcs/mobs respawn. Characters do not need to eat, therefore food production isn't necessary. So control of land doesn't mean as much. Building is not important for a variety of reasons. Characters don't need to sleep or require shelter from foul weather. There is no weight or encumbrance, so storage is not usually a problem. Trade and economics is not important because of universal auction houses and npc vendors that sell most things players need. Politics and diplomacy are not important because players can't be rule or be in charge of anything except for guilds. There are more reasons, but those are some of the most important. The things that produce meaningful conflict in the real world are not present in most mmorpgs.
And because the conflict is not meaningful, neither is the cooperation.
I never forget there is a real person behind the avatar.
isn't that the real reason to be mean and toxic online since there is no consequences to do it in a game, compared to doing it in the real world?
When i headshot some toons in planetside 2, i very much can taste the pain & anger behind the avatar, and that is why it is more fun than headshoting some NPCs in Sniper Elite.
And for all those who are going to deny that is what they like, they are just not as honest as me.
All I can say is not everyone has your same motivations. I don't enjoy killing other players, so I don't play games where offensive attacks are the focus.
Sure, I'll gladly do home defense of my guilds territory, but when they start going off on long distance campaigns for the lulls I stay behind.
I also think there is a difference between PvPing for the competition and PvPing because it pleases you to think you are making someone upset.
One is socially unreasonable and pathetic, the other is not.
I also think there is a difference between PvPing for the competition and PvPing because it pleases you to think you are making someone upset.
One is socially unreasonable and pathetic, the other is not.
Yeah. I think nariusseldon is doing a lot of talking about how he thinks and ascribing those views to everyone.
I PvP for similar reason to why I played sports. I like competition. Sure I like to come out on top but it's not because of the suffering I inflict on my opponent. It's because winning is a satisfying thing to do. Losing can even be satisfying sometimes if you at least hold your own against a worthy opponent. For instance losing to a very skilled opponent who you manage to put the hurt on before you go down is something I enjoy quite a bit more than just stomping on people who stand no chance. And if I can win without ruining someone's day then even better. A hard fought match where the enemy complements my victory and maybe even teams up to play some matches alongside me afterwards always leaves me feeling a lot better then when they end up spouting off like a jerk afterwards because they couldn't take the loss gracefully.
Now there are some people who I legitimately do enjoy ruining their day. But those people tend to be virtual bullies and people who have personally wronged me. I won't even lie for a second that ruining those people's day brings me a deep sense of satisfaction, but that satisfaction is drawn from a hatred of who they are / what they represent. I don't just go around ruining random people's day for the hell of it.
I agree that's pathetic. It makes me wonder who hurt them, or if they were just born worthless.
That's true I think PvP where you are competing is great and I have enjoyed that. It's when they camp you and kill you over and over because they are so many levels above you and just want you to quit is both pathetic and unworthy of the term PvP because it is not PvP it is just plain slaughter and butchery. There is no sport in it and PvP seems to be about a sport.
That's true I think PvP where you are competing is great and I have enjoyed that. It's when they camp you and kill you over and over because they are so many levels above you and just want you to quit is both pathetic and unworthy of the term PvP because it is not PvP it is just plain slaughter and butchery. There is no sport in it and PvP seems to be about a sport.
I call it Level vs. Level or Gear vs. Gear at that point. It's not like there is a contest of skill happening between players it's simply the numbers of the game telling you who will win. I'm convinced the only PvPers that really love a system like that are:
A. People who enjoy killing for the sake of killing AKA virtual bullies. B. People who are too crap of a player to win by other means.
Nobody benefits from huge stat disparities in PvP. It's not even very fun as the victor if you are looking for competition and not just a chance to abuse people.
I think MMO's attract a certain type of gamer , Definitely people who are looking for a immersive escape from their day to day. I think some of those said players fall into a group of very lonely angry people who channel/release their frustrations upon this virtual world lol. I think its almost therapy in a sense for them.
One thing I think MMOs should get rid off is the need and greed mechanics, it really bring out the worst in some people and it is better to just give individual loot and allow full guild groups using master loot as option.
D3 and wow (before i left) gives individual loot and that does not eliminate toxicity. There are plenty of things to argue about beyond loot. In fact, people don't even argue .. they curse, and then vote-kick/rage-quit.
And why would MMOs want to get rid of it. It is not like toxicity will make a game unpopular. Otherwise, LoL won't still be around.
No, getting rid of one of the reasons does not take away the entire thing but it helps.
And the whole thing do turn off some people while attracting others, but it attract the kind of people we rather don't want to play with.
I really i have managed to avoid that part of the community for the most part , and ive been at this a very very long time .. 3 things contribute to that ..
1. have a group of friends that you run with (i have a group that has been together since AC ) Now i realize that doesnt work for everyone and even many times my group gets spread out ..
2. Find a Guild(in game) of like minded (play style) as your self and maybe look at some of the Multi Gaming Guilds , that have pop in many games Covenant of the Phoenix for ex.. is a good one
3. and this is most important.. Dont bring your fucking Feelings to the Internet ,its no place for feelings...
of course exception is if you are with real friends gaming
Doing these things really filters out the idiots and makes your game time more enjoyable
And the whole thing do turn off some people while attracting others, but it attract the kind of people we rather don't want to play with.
Sure. But that is *your* problem, not the genre's. They clearly have attract enough players. In fact, if you look at LoL, way more than any traditional MMORPGs that are not as toxic.
And you are not forced to play with anyone. You can always hit the "quit" button whenever there is someone in groups that you do not like. You can vote-kick too. You can also ignore people trying to invite you to groups. I do that all the time. I never play with anyone i don't want to.
Comments
Of course, there are very kind and helpful players, but they are mostly in their guilds being kind and helping out and you see them less often in the general pug population with a relatively higher incidence of running into these "immature" people who get kicked from their guilds for trolling guild chat, etc.
When i headshot some toons in planetside 2, i very much can taste the pain & anger behind the avatar, and that is why it is more fun than headshoting some NPCs in Sniper Elite.
And for all those who are going to deny that is what they like, they are just not as honest as me.
Sure, I'll gladly do home defense of my guilds territory, but when they start going off on long distance campaigns for the lulls I stay behind.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The trend I observed over the years was as the MMOs became more mainstream and more accessible/enjoyable to everyone (not just the original niche audience from the pre-WoW era) the ratio of toxic players increased at the same rate.
I'm not blaming World of Warcraft. The genre would have eventually went in that direction to attract new players even if Blizzard never made a MMO.
What's happening is the same as with any fanbase. I'll use sports teams as an example. When the team is either new or not winning they usually have a small but loyal group of good fans. Once that team gets good, wins championships, and becomes popular more people join the fanbase. Some of them are not true fans but do so just to jump on the bandwagon to try to look cool and fit in. These fans are typically more of the toxic type than not. It's the same with MMOs. The more popular they become the more fake bandwagon toxic people they attract. It's an unfortunate side effect of success.
Today we have mega servers or cross server dungeons, you might very well never see the people you team up with again and that brings out the worst in some people.
Not to mention that MMORPGs in the late 90s were a small community over all, particularly before EQ and Lineage, we were maybe a million players worldwide in UO, the Realm, Meridian 59 and a couple more back then. A small subculture tend to be friendlier to eachother.
Still, I believe that it seems far worse then it is because these people are really loud, you don't need that many people to make a community feel hostile if they shout a lot. It is harder to notice regular nice people.
In the old days most of them would leave the game since no-one wanted to play with them and soloing was rare back then and took skill so they basically would pay $15 for a text chat to whine in. Others rerolled and learned to keep their mouths shut terminating the problem as well.
One thing I think MMOs should get rid off is the need and greed mechanics, it really bring out the worst in some people and it is better to just give individual loot and allow full guild groups using master loot as option. It is that together with whining on the healer that I myself seen creating most issues and moaning.
And why would MMOs want to get rid of it. It is not like toxicity will make a game unpopular. Otherwise, LoL won't still be around.
Anonymity.
I've known people in real life who were normal, fairly grounded, but turned into insufferable d-bags when they logged into their MMO of choice. Why did they do it? 'cause they could without accountability.
News flash, most gamers are not looking for life simulators and aren't looking for realistic toilet mechanics.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
beyond that games are built on competition. The vast majority of people want to win. Some never want to lose. I believe the later make up your pve toxicity.
Your pvp toxicity comes form ultra competitiveness and poor winners.
One is socially unreasonable and pathetic, the other is not.
I PvP for similar reason to why I played sports. I like competition. Sure I like to come out on top but it's not because of the suffering I inflict on my opponent. It's because winning is a satisfying thing to do. Losing can even be satisfying sometimes if you at least hold your own against a worthy opponent. For instance losing to a very skilled opponent who you manage to put the hurt on before you go down is something I enjoy quite a bit more than just stomping on people who stand no chance. And if I can win without ruining someone's day then even better. A hard fought match where the enemy complements my victory and maybe even teams up to play some matches alongside me afterwards always leaves me feeling a lot better then when they end up spouting off like a jerk afterwards because they couldn't take the loss gracefully.
Now there are some people who I legitimately do enjoy ruining their day. But those people tend to be virtual bullies and people who have personally wronged me. I won't even lie for a second that ruining those people's day brings me a deep sense of satisfaction, but that satisfaction is drawn from a hatred of who they are / what they represent. I don't just go around ruining random people's day for the hell of it.
I agree that's pathetic. It makes me wonder who hurt them, or if they were just born worthless.
A. People who enjoy killing for the sake of killing AKA virtual bullies.
B. People who are too crap of a player to win by other means.
Nobody benefits from huge stat disparities in PvP. It's not even very fun as the victor if you are looking for competition and not just a chance to abuse people.
Aloha Mr Hand !
And the whole thing do turn off some people while attracting others, but it attract the kind of people we rather don't want to play with.
1. have a group of friends that you run with (i have a group that has been together since AC ) Now i realize that doesnt work for everyone and even many times my group gets spread out ..
2. Find a Guild(in game) of like minded (play style) as your self and maybe look at some of the Multi Gaming Guilds , that have pop in many games Covenant of the Phoenix for ex.. is a good one
3. and this is most important.. Dont bring your fucking Feelings to the Internet ,its no place for feelings...
of course exception is if you are with real friends gaming
Doing these things really filters out the idiots and makes your game time more enjoyable
And you are not forced to play with anyone. You can always hit the "quit" button whenever there is someone in groups that you do not like. You can vote-kick too. You can also ignore people trying to invite you to groups. I do that all the time. I never play with anyone i don't want to.