you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
It's true. Why do you think only wow is able to break into the asian market. It is because of diablo and starcraft.
You have more people interested in an online skyrim than a spirit successor of EQ.
Vanguard was never really fixed. It got better, but even after years of work, it still didn't run well. By then hardly anyone played and they weren't suddenly going to get an influx of players and if they did, people would be like "wtf is with all these bugs?!"
Also, I can see an "old school" game being made because tbh there isn't much difference from newer stuff. To me, the biggest difference is they had more little things in the game to add flavor, where as later games have gutted that stuff and streamlined it.
I don't see why making a game that has "more" to it won't work, but I can see why it is not made. It takes effort and money and why bother when they can make something quick and siphon as much cash out of people before they quit.
you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
yup. Blizzard could do the same exact things as EA does and no one would care...AND they would defend Blizzard like the world was about to collapse if they didn't
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Why make a game based on mechanics that were the only options 15-20 years ago? It's like asking why Ford won't make the Model T anymore. People generally don't want to spend two hours getting to a location in a game. It's really the reason why old-school MMOs had such social communities - when you're stuck walking somewhere for two hours in a video game, you can at least pass the time by chatting.
The real question is, when will we see some real innovation in the MMO industry?
The bigger devs are scared of making any kind of MMO.
What the should do is to make something new instead, neither old school, Wow clones or modern games are doing that great and we need something new, challenging and fun instead of copies of existing games.
There are a lot of technical possibilities now that couldn't be implemented in the early games due to technical reasons.
For the genre to reboot and become hot again like 2005 we need something new and exciting. The old beloved mechanics aren't good enough anymore.
Do you know what made games like M59, UO, EQ, AC and DaoC so great? They pioneered new ideas and gave us something we never seen before, a new experience. Wow then brought a lot of that experience to the great masses. Now the games are more of the same and copying games like that is missing the point completelly.
What we need is not to bring back MMOs from the late 90s and early 00s, we need to bring back the spirit of the games but not the mechanics in itself.
The early games were mainly made by pen and paper roleplaying fans who tried different things to try to translate that experience into a computer game. Some did this better then others and eventually we got stuck with a specific model. We did get action combat from other kinds of computer games and the mechanics have been polished and we have gotten things that simplify it for players like auction houses and dungeonfinders but you can just polish something up so much.
Time to rethink and start from scratch again. The only other possibility I see is to use new technology like VR to make the tired old things seem newer.
They have made oldschool MMOs. No one played them. The biggest example is Vanguard. Even when it got fixed, barely anyone played it. Has nothing to do with launch.
There were huge campaigns on various sites and forums (including mmorpg.com, and massively (the old massively) to get people to join. Sometimes up to 1000 people would be on a server (judging by the biggest guild on the server, which would have up to 500 people on at one time, it was crazy. So 1000 is probably way too low overall) during a player recruitment campaign so it had nothing to do with a lack of people.
Everyone who played and tried it, even when game was fixed, stopped playing it. Not because the game was dead, because that would be false when there were probably thousands playing during a recruitment campaign. No one wanted that oldschool experience. A few people stayed, but barely any.
hmmmm, That's not really the whole thing. I played Vanguard right up to the announcement that it was being closed and the game was never "fixed".
Oh sure, it was better far more playable, but there were horrible glitches. I was once running across the desert and "suddenly" the game lagged and after 15 seconds I was in some cave and killed immediately.
And not only did it have constant weird glitches, it really was on life support. It didn't' really have a regular update for, I can't remember how long. There was some huge dungeon that was going to be added but I don't recall if it was. Alternate advancement as well.
But ... people paid for the sub to support the game. Heck, I paid a Vanguard sub not a Sony Pass sub because I wanted the money to be registered toward the game.
But again, the game was never fixed and wasn't being actively developed like other games. That's Probably a better reason as to why it had such a small population.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
hmmmm, That's not really the whole thing. I played Vanguard right up to the announcement that it was being closed and the game was never "fixed".
Oh sure, it was better far more playable, but there were horrible glitches. I was once running across the desert and "suddenly" the game lagged and after 15 seconds I was in some cave and killed immediately.
And not only did it have constant weird glitches, it really was on life support. It didn't' really have a regular update for, I can't remember how long. There was some huge dungeon that was going to be added but I don't recall if it was. Alternate advancement as well.
But ... people paid for the sub to support the game. Heck, I paid a Vanguard sub not a Sony Pass sub because I wanted the money to be registered toward the game.
But again, the game was never fixed and wasn't being actively developed like other games. That's Probably a better reason as to why it had such a small population.
It got fixed up from AO launch week to AoC a month after launch or so, it was basically unplayable at launch and just a bit annoying at the end.
But the reason I got on life support was the bad shape it was in, the game got a bad reputation at launch and the only thing that could have saved it was if they did what SE did with FF XIV, make it free until it is fixed up and re-release it. Say what you will of Square-Enix but they did make a textbook example on how you actually fix a disaster.
The gameplay was never VGs problem and neither was the mechanics, it was basically a good game but with terrible coding and an engine that just constantly made life hard. And it isn't the only SOE game with that problem (even if they took it over from SIGIL), the reason Wow did so great while EQ2 did so poorly in comparision was EQ2s engine sucked and still sucks while Wows was well made. Yeah, it is more complicated but EQ2 would have done far better if the engine was better coded just like VG.
That said, I am not sure a game exactly like VG but with a good engine and modern graphics would do well today. It is a possibility of course but I ain't betting on it.
It will be interesting to see how Pantheon does though, Brads new team seems more competent then SIGIL was. I don't think it will be a huge success but I can see a couple of hundred K play it if it releases in good enough shape. Heck, I am backing it myself.
The title of this post shows both bias, and lack of understanding:
Why are bigger developers scared to make an Old School MMO.
It is sorta like asking, why is NASA scared to put dogs in space? The answer is obvious, it is not about fear, it is about need. The Russians put a dog in space as part of the process to develop space travel... but there is not any scientific or developmental reason to do this anymore, as they have moved past that stage.
The same applies to MMO's. There is not any need to make an old school MMO as they have moved past that point in both development, and market sales. Those products are basically obsolete, and they don't see any reason to make a product that would not sell on todays market.
I think that's a bad analogy. It has nothing to do with need. At this point in time it would be a large PR hit. 1960's? Not so much.
If NASA wanted to put a dog on Mars it wouldn't fly. Same with an Chimp.
There is nothing to move past as far as "old school" mmo's. They are there own thing and they rely upon very different mechanisms for their world. At least compared to modern theme park games. It's more about money than "need".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That said, I am not sure a game exactly like VG but with a good engine and modern graphics would do well today. It is a possibility of course but I ain't betting on it.
It will be interesting to see how Pantheon does though, Brads new team seems more competent then SIGIL was. I don't think it will be a huge success but I can see a couple of hundred K play it if it releases in good enough shape. Heck, I am backing it myself.
That's the thing, what's "well". I've mentioned this before but I thought the secret world would do about 250 k (not much more) players. I thought given the type of game it was that was "good". Well, it did more. 300k And to Funcom "that wasn't well".
I really think developers all think that their games are all going to be million plus block busters.
So if a game like Vanguard, let's say Pantheon comes out, it will do very well. "For the type of game it is". To "me" that's 90k/100k players based on how it looks. We've all seen people look at the footage and think it looks "horrible" even though it's an indy game. But then again, players have been spoiled with the Black Deserts or Final Fantasys or whatever modern game they are playing and they don't understand that that takes a LOT of money.
So yeah, being modest it will do well. But million plus? I don't think so. I'd be shocked if it got half a million.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That said, I am not sure a game exactly like VG but with a good engine and modern graphics would do well today. It is a possibility of course but I ain't betting on it.
It will be interesting to see how Pantheon does though, Brads new team seems more competent then SIGIL was. I don't think it will be a huge success but I can see a couple of hundred K play it if it releases in good enough shape. Heck, I am backing it myself.
That's the thing, what's "well". I've mentioned this before but I thought the secret world would do about 250 k (not much more) players. I thought given the type of game it was that was "good". Well, it did more. 300k And to Funcom "that wasn't well".
I really think developers all think that their games are all going to be million plus block busters.
So if a game like Vanguard, let's say Pantheon comes out, it will do very well. "For the type of game it is". To "me" that's 90k/100k players based on how it looks. We've all seen people look at the footage and think it looks "horrible" even though it's an indy game. But then again, players have been spoiled with the Black Deserts or Final Fantasys or whatever modern game they are playing and they don't understand that that takes a LOT of money.
So yeah, being modest it will do well. But million plus? I don't think so. I'd be shocked if it got half a million.
Agreed. The genre was originally built for a relatively small niche of gamers- mostly the nerdiest who enjoyed the translation from pen and paper to video game, with all the complexity and depth that entailed.
If the genre returns to that niche, it won't have "failed" so much as simply normalized, in my opinion.
May be the large MMOs should have some kind of collaberation.
They share their engine, tools, network code, computers etc and get a part of the royalties.
Would allow any new mmo idea a lot more access if they did not have to worry about all those over head costs and just for example worked on the off hours part time at a mmo hq office that already finished their shift.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
No proof of profitability on the level of a modern AAA MMO development budget... though some companies may have wished they had made something different than WoW after every dev camp and their mother made one roughly at the same time
At this point in the MMOVerse, either Pantheon has to show there is profitability in the EQ clone model, a title actually has programming to organically create changes in the world, or just put the bare minimum content in and have PvP.
The Interface with the world has to get more expansive before MMORPGs or some future cousin genre becomes successful. MMORPGs have evolved away from the tabletop roots into action combat with inventory games, which makes them slightly more complex console type games, or really simplified combat-only MMOs. Until that technology is cheap and easy I think MMORPGs are at plateau.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
No, I am saying if someone creates a good game, peoples won't play it if it lacks a popular brand?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's no money in it. And the development time and budget required for an MMORPG is enormous.
Not really. It's more like, "Not enough money in it." meaning not quite "peak WoW numbers."
I'd wager there is money to be made. One could save a lot on costs with fewer animation sequences needed in an RNG auto-attack combat game and many "old schoolers" would/could pay a monthly premium for such a game. Think anyone could be happy with a game that may get 250k premium subscribers ($30/month) each and every year?
I'm not rich, but if someone actually created a "living world" I could get lost in, I'm there. Even $50/month is not too much for that experience for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
What is an old school mmorpg? It's a game designed to put a player into a fantasy world and keep them there with endless content. It requires a dedicated development team with near autonomous control over content creation. It requires a portion of it's earnings to be reinvested directly back into the game.
What is a large game developer? It's a development company heavily compartmentalized into teams given money from a unified pool typically managed by a parent company for time limited, project based development cycles. Income is not directly reinvested back into their games without heavy consent and manipulation by segregated management. Teams are not always dedicated to one project and can be redistributed at will. Those post-launch support teams are heavily influenced by budgets of development cycles of other games that are a part of a macro marketed business model designed to share their entire audience spectrum and not compete against their own products.
Big developers don't make old school mmorpgs NOT because there isn't money in it, NOT because there isn't interest in it and NOT because development time and costs have risen so much. They don't make them because the companies no longer are set up to fit the business model. Big developers are massive game factories that pump out products with maximized efficiency just like any industrialized big business. They don't make old school mmorpgs because the product doesn't fit the model ... PERIOD!
Old school mmorpgs were made by indie companies or those still supporting niche marketing. New old school mmorpgs in development are being made by indie companies adopting niche marketing. There is no fucking mystery here.
Gaming publishers have become increasingly risk adverse. They have gone from believing innovation and new experiences are the foundation of solid company strategy to believing no change with a new wrapper is the key to success. The only exceptions to this are marketing led decisions where a larger playerbase is sort to eclipse a smaller one.
They have lost any commitment to gaming ethos, business ethos is their only concern now. We have seen CEO's who had an interest in gaming replaced by those who came from the likes of Pepsi. They brought a new ethos with them, I remember the EA boss crowing that every designer now considered cost when designing. That's not something a creative should be doing, its for an executive to tell them 'hang on this is going over budget'.
Trying to go back and do a AAA old school MMO is seen as way to risky. Indeed even taking some elements of the old and mixing them in with the new like ESO would be seen as questionable.
The 'no change with a new wrapper' approach is seen in everything from franchises to dlc skins, from ever more easymode play to making games fashion items you must have at launch.
Indie is the only antidote to this, it has had a limited impact, but don't expect the big guns to change their strategy because of its success. With all the money the big gaming houses put into developing a game they must see Indie as being allowed to do something they never could. Or that at least is now the accepted thinking.
It all makes perfect sense if you remove the word school and replace it with 'fashioned' why are developers averse to making old fashioned MMO's ? sometimes the answer is in the question.
you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
No, I am saying if someone creates a good game, peoples won't play it if it lacks a popular brand?
Oh! Yea, I misunderstood you. Hopefully not, but I wouldn't put it past fickle consumers.
you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
No, I am saying if someone creates a good game, peoples won't play it if it lacks a popular brand?
Oh! Yea, I misunderstood you. Hopefully not, but I wouldn't put it past fickle consumers.
Yes, lets blame fickle consumers, we should force them to buy stuff, its for their own good. It would be interesting to see how anyone could put a positive spin on that Players will inevitably vote with their wallets when it comes to things they do or do not like, though the example given of COD is perhaps not the best one as it has seen a steady fall off in numbers of units sold, which cannot be reconciled with increased digital sales over physical ones, nor can a bad game released under a popular brand name avoid bad sales or damaging the brand itself, COD Infinity Warfare was a thing after all. Consumers aren't fickle, but they are becoming increasingly well informed, the influence of hype can often be hugely negative, see No Mans Sky for how well that turns out. What is happening now, is that if a game is at all questionable, the publishers will do their best to prevent early information getting out about the game that is not strictly controlled, and youtubers with a history of giving 'accurate' game reviews hindered where possible.
I will not spend money on buggy games even if those games are what I want. If Indie developers cannot develop stable and enjoyable games I will not buy them. I will not pay for nostalgia or any such thing. Big money goes where there are big returns. They will not bother with the market whose clientele are known to be ones that complain loudly and spend very little. I think they have noticed that with very little money invested by using the mobile market model they earn way more and can avoid the consumers that write long reviews and long forum posts and visit multiple sites to lodge complaints.
you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
No, I am saying if someone creates a good game, peoples won't play it if it lacks a popular brand?
Oh! Yea, I misunderstood you. Hopefully not, but I wouldn't put it past fickle consumers.
Yes, lets blame fickle consumers, we should force them to buy stuff, its for their own good. It would be interesting to see how anyone could put a positive spin on that Players will inevitably vote with their wallets when it comes to things they do or do not like, though the example given of COD is perhaps not the best one as it has seen a steady fall off in numbers of units sold, which cannot be reconciled with increased digital sales over physical ones, nor can a bad game released under a popular brand name avoid bad sales or damaging the brand itself, COD Infinity Warfare was a thing after all. Consumers aren't fickle, but they are becoming increasingly well informed, the influence of hype can often be hugely negative, see No Mans Sky for how well that turns out. What is happening now, is that if a game is at all questionable, the publishers will do their best to prevent early information getting out about the game that is not strictly controlled, and youtubers with a history of giving 'accurate' game reviews hindered where possible.
Yeah, I wanted to add that certainly a brand can influence people to buy a game, but it can't make them like it if it is poorly made.
EA learned this lesson with MEA, sold a bunch at first, but the lashback was strong its questionable if or when another will be made.
The post I responded to said people were playing poor games only for their brand which I don't agree with, outside of a few outliers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
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You have more people interested in an online skyrim than a spirit successor of EQ.
Also, I can see an "old school" game being made because tbh there isn't much difference from newer stuff. To me, the biggest difference is they had more little things in the game to add flavor, where as later games have gutted that stuff and streamlined it.
I don't see why making a game that has "more" to it won't work, but I can see why it is not made. It takes effort and money and why bother when they can make something quick and siphon as much cash out of people before they quit.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
The real question is, when will we see some real innovation in the MMO industry?
What the should do is to make something new instead, neither old school, Wow clones or modern games are doing that great and we need something new, challenging and fun instead of copies of existing games.
There are a lot of technical possibilities now that couldn't be implemented in the early games due to technical reasons.
For the genre to reboot and become hot again like 2005 we need something new and exciting. The old beloved mechanics aren't good enough anymore.
Do you know what made games like M59, UO, EQ, AC and DaoC so great? They pioneered new ideas and gave us something we never seen before, a new experience. Wow then brought a lot of that experience to the great masses. Now the games are more of the same and copying games like that is missing the point completelly.
What we need is not to bring back MMOs from the late 90s and early 00s, we need to bring back the spirit of the games but not the mechanics in itself.
The early games were mainly made by pen and paper roleplaying fans who tried different things to try to translate that experience into a computer game. Some did this better then others and eventually we got stuck with a specific model. We did get action combat from other kinds of computer games and the mechanics have been polished and we have gotten things that simplify it for players like auction houses and dungeonfinders but you can just polish something up so much.
Time to rethink and start from scratch again. The only other possibility I see is to use new technology like VR to make the tired old things seem newer.
Oh sure, it was better far more playable, but there were horrible glitches. I was once running across the desert and "suddenly" the game lagged and after 15 seconds I was in some cave and killed immediately.
And not only did it have constant weird glitches, it really was on life support. It didn't' really have a regular update for, I can't remember how long. There was some huge dungeon that was going to be added but I don't recall if it was. Alternate advancement as well.
But ... people paid for the sub to support the game. Heck, I paid a Vanguard sub not a Sony Pass sub because I wanted the money to be registered toward the game.
But again, the game was never fixed and wasn't being actively developed like other games. That's Probably a better reason as to why it had such a small population.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But the reason I got on life support was the bad shape it was in, the game got a bad reputation at launch and the only thing that could have saved it was if they did what SE did with FF XIV, make it free until it is fixed up and re-release it. Say what you will of Square-Enix but they did make a textbook example on how you actually fix a disaster.
The gameplay was never VGs problem and neither was the mechanics, it was basically a good game but with terrible coding and an engine that just constantly made life hard. And it isn't the only SOE game with that problem (even if they took it over from SIGIL), the reason Wow did so great while EQ2 did so poorly in comparision was EQ2s engine sucked and still sucks while Wows was well made. Yeah, it is more complicated but EQ2 would have done far better if the engine was better coded just like VG.
That said, I am not sure a game exactly like VG but with a good engine and modern graphics would do well today. It is a possibility of course but I ain't betting on it.
It will be interesting to see how Pantheon does though, Brads new team seems more competent then SIGIL was. I don't think it will be a huge success but I can see a couple of hundred K play it if it releases in good enough shape. Heck, I am backing it myself.
If NASA wanted to put a dog on Mars it wouldn't fly. Same with an Chimp.
There is nothing to move past as far as "old school" mmo's. They are there own thing and they rely upon very different mechanisms for their world. At least compared to modern theme park games. It's more about money than "need".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I really think developers all think that their games are all going to be million plus block busters.
So if a game like Vanguard, let's say Pantheon comes out, it will do very well. "For the type of game it is". To "me" that's 90k/100k players based on how it looks. We've all seen people look at the footage and think it looks "horrible" even though it's an indy game. But then again, players have been spoiled with the Black Deserts or Final Fantasys or whatever modern game they are playing and they don't understand that that takes a LOT of money.
So yeah, being modest it will do well. But million plus? I don't think so. I'd be shocked if it got half a million.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If the genre returns to that niche, it won't have "failed" so much as simply normalized, in my opinion.
They share their engine, tools, network code, computers etc and get a part of the royalties.
Would allow any new mmo idea a lot more access if they did not have to worry about all those over head costs and just for example worked on the off hours part time at a mmo hq office that already finished their shift.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
At this point in the MMOVerse, either Pantheon has to show there is profitability in the EQ clone model, a title actually has programming to organically create changes in the world, or just put the bare minimum content in and have PvP.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd wager there is money to be made. One could save a lot on costs with fewer animation sequences needed in an RNG auto-attack combat game and many "old schoolers" would/could pay a monthly premium for such a game. Think anyone could be happy with a game that may get 250k premium subscribers ($30/month) each and every year?
I'm not rich, but if someone actually created a "living world" I could get lost in, I'm there. Even $50/month is not too much for that experience for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What is an old school mmorpg? It's a game designed to put a player into a fantasy world and keep them there with endless content. It requires a dedicated development team with near autonomous control over content creation. It requires a portion of it's earnings to be reinvested directly back into the game.
What is a large game developer? It's a development company heavily compartmentalized into teams given money from a unified pool typically managed by a parent company for time limited, project based development cycles. Income is not directly reinvested back into their games without heavy consent and manipulation by segregated management. Teams are not always dedicated to one project and can be redistributed at will. Those post-launch support teams are heavily influenced by budgets of development cycles of other games that are a part of a macro marketed business model designed to share their entire audience spectrum and not compete against their own products.
Big developers don't make old school mmorpgs NOT because there isn't money in it, NOT because there isn't interest in it and NOT because development time and costs have risen so much. They don't make them because the companies no longer are set up to fit the business model. Big developers are massive game factories that pump out products with maximized efficiency just like any industrialized big business. They don't make old school mmorpgs because the product doesn't fit the model ... PERIOD!
Old school mmorpgs were made by indie companies or those still supporting niche marketing. New old school mmorpgs in development are being made by indie companies adopting niche marketing. There is no fucking mystery here.
You stay sassy!
They have lost any commitment to gaming ethos, business ethos is their only concern now. We have seen CEO's who had an interest in gaming replaced by those who came from the likes of Pepsi. They brought a new ethos with them, I remember the EA boss crowing that every designer now considered cost when designing. That's not something a creative should be doing, its for an executive to tell them 'hang on this is going over budget'.
Trying to go back and do a AAA old school MMO is seen as way to risky. Indeed even taking some elements of the old and mixing them in with the new like ESO would be seen as questionable.
The 'no change with a new wrapper' approach is seen in everything from franchises to dlc skins, from ever more easymode play to making games fashion items you must have at launch.
Indie is the only antidote to this, it has had a limited impact, but don't expect the big guns to change their strategy because of its success. With all the money the big gaming houses put into developing a game they must see Indie as being allowed to do something they never could. Or that at least is now the accepted thinking.
Players will inevitably vote with their wallets when it comes to things they do or do not like, though the example given of COD is perhaps not the best one as it has seen a steady fall off in numbers of units sold, which cannot be reconciled with increased digital sales over physical ones, nor can a bad game released under a popular brand name avoid bad sales or damaging the brand itself, COD Infinity Warfare was a thing after all.
Consumers aren't fickle, but they are becoming increasingly well informed, the influence of hype can often be hugely negative, see No Mans Sky for how well that turns out. What is happening now, is that if a game is at all questionable, the publishers will do their best to prevent early information getting out about the game that is not strictly controlled, and youtubers with a history of giving 'accurate' game reviews hindered where possible.
We have Korea for that with all it's cash shops.
EA learned this lesson with MEA, sold a bunch at first, but the lashback was strong its questionable if or when another will be made.
The post I responded to said people were playing poor games only for their brand which I don't agree with, outside of a few outliers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't want to go back to any of that crap.