you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should
I already have. Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide). These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ. BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts. They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story). If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story. Those 200k would rave about the game. Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.
Going back to FFXIV. This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week. Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was. They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.
So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.
But Final Fantasy is a big brand that is played world wide. Vanguard or darkfall have no brand.
There are more people playing ESO just because of skyrim. Having a brand is what helped them. No one would give FF14 a second chance if it is run by a no brand company.
People play MMORPGs because of their brand but otherwise wouldn't bother?
Isn't that a lot like saying if not for the labels on them, people wouldn't wear clothes?
Weird.
C'mon Kyleran, there's a reason CoD can release titles over and over without any real fear of a true "failure"- brand recognition is a huge boon no matter the industry.
No, I am saying if someone creates a good game, peoples won't play it if it lacks a popular brand?
Oh! Yea, I misunderstood you. Hopefully not, but I wouldn't put it past fickle consumers.
Yes, lets blame fickle consumers, we should force them to buy stuff, its for their own good. It would be interesting to see how anyone could put a positive spin on that Players will inevitably vote with their wallets when it comes to things they do or do not like, though the example given of COD is perhaps not the best one as it has seen a steady fall off in numbers of units sold, which cannot be reconciled with increased digital sales over physical ones, nor can a bad game released under a popular brand name avoid bad sales or damaging the brand itself, COD Infinity Warfare was a thing after all. Consumers aren't fickle, but they are becoming increasingly well informed, the influence of hype can often be hugely negative, see No Mans Sky for how well that turns out. What is happening now, is that if a game is at all questionable, the publishers will do their best to prevent early information getting out about the game that is not strictly controlled, and youtubers with a history of giving 'accurate' game reviews hindered where possible.
Yeah, I wanted to add that certainly a brand can influence people to buy a game, but it can't make them like it if it is poorly made.
EA learned this lesson with MEA, sold a bunch at first, but the lashback was strong its questionable if or when another will be made.
The post I responded to said people were playing poor games only for their brand which I don't agree with, outside of a few outliers.
Now, imagine if MEA had been a new IP from a new dev studio.... The publisher may have actually lost money on the project, instead of just not making enough.
That's the power of brand recognition. It absolutely helped make MEA successful, despite widespread controversy. We're so conditioned to accepting it that we overlook the benefit that it gives products. MEA wasn't a failure so much as a disappointing success.
Not a rant. Just don't understand it fully. EQ/UO/CoX/DAOC/SWG/ect All these games where the foundation of their MMO genres but since their release no one has really made a successor to any of them. The only real attempt have been by very little known companies that when they released them had very little resources for the game to be given any real shot. I feel like its just been bad luck on many parts of these games to have true successors (meaning basis of the game is the same just updated graphics and expanded mechanics to what was already tried and true). Also I feel the main reason is the greed for cash has made developers rush games or add things to the game that end up setting up their failure.
I do know many people enjoy some of the games out there today but the people who found the above games amazing before just general life expectancy ran out on them have not had a real game to play in a long time.
No game like EQ has ever come out again. Closes thing was vanguard. Vanguard had a ton of players at the start but then they realized the game was not complete. Everyone left. I remember killing a level 45 mob and it did not drop loot. Or fighting a caster NPC where it was just punching me because it's spells weren't even put into the game yet. No one has touched a game like it since. Pantheon has a chance to be like EQ but it's being funded and developed by someone who not many trust anymore, so that will ward off many in the mean time. It's also obvious by the Pay 1000$ to beta test that the guy is still only out for money. His team has always been the real reason the games have done well. Soon as Pantheon hits a hard patch mark my words that dude is going to bail on his team and us.
UO. Legends of Aria is the closes thing I can remember to it but its not the same and right now the funding is very limited for LoA. Will be released and be a niche game. It's funny because the real game that was a true successor to this was Darkfall. Darkfall was created by a guy who could inspire the room but in truth had very limited experience and was only able to deliver on like 20% of his promise. The game was also broken. But what I find funny is that the game was wanted SO badly by old school MMO players (and new) that even with the bad shape of the game, people tried to keep it alive in hopes that it was fixed. The money grab was so good for Adventurine that they remade it in hopes of grabbing a few more dollars. Now that the games name is in the mud, there are still two developers who loved the game that much that are trying to revive it. Sadly it will just be a niche again. This will stray developers and funders away from making something like it in the future.
City of Heroes/Villains. One of the best concept games ever. I loved everything about this game except two things. The publisher who really didnt care about the game and the fact that end game was never handled correctly. The games leveling system was one of the best experiences I've ever had. But the endgame was a mess. Not allowing players to obtain real loot or ways to progress your character from endzones made this an endless loop of playing alts. All any developer has to do is make new CoX with an actual endgame. DC online was the best attempt to a game like this but it was nothing like CoX. The focus on PVP completely ruined it for many people. I really hope someone makes a real CoX succesor. Ship of Heroes and Valiance online will not be the ones. I am going to support and play them because maybe it will show big developers its worth investing in but these games will be low population games with very slow support because the teams are so small. I will also play because for some stupid reason there are just NO superhero mmo's out there. How is this even possible. Marvel has put superheroes on the map as a billion dollar industry and the best we have is Champs online and DC online. Can't wrap my mind around that.
DAOC online. Realm vs realm. Still the king. Every game that has tried to have it just gives up. Its funny. WVW GW2, nothing like it. Rift with their two alliances, given up and now everyone is in harmony. Wildstar, samething. ESO. Aion had it almost perfect with the Abyss but then they ruined it. Going F2P (money grab) just destroyed that game. It did allow the game to last longer but as far as mechanics/gameplay it ruined it. Really Hoping Aion 6.0 with their server restart will atleast keep me at peace for sometime but doubting it.
SWG. Pure money destroyed this game. Taking the game and turing it into EQ2/WoW with lightsabers. We all know this story. Everygame that has tried to take parts from this game has been developed by someone who has tried to do it on their own with no team.
TLDR
Because the majority of people will not play it. If this wasn't the fact, we'd see the opposite.
Because good games don't sell. Hype sells. And hype is 'innovation', 'next-gen', '$100 million art budget', 'revolutionary PvP', 'flash'. But of course we know all this comes in a package of a stripped down shallow game because after marketing, art, and failing to re-invent the wheel the budgets are blown. Plus one of the determining factors of a great game (IMO) is one that is played for many many years to come. That's simply not profitable. Make a small game, build the hype, profit and 1 year later create a sequel that has better art and worse gameplay, profit, rinse and repeat.
If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!
Because the majority of people will not play it. If this wasn't the fact, we'd see the opposite.
I disagree, I think a lot of people would still play these games. The problem is there is so much money developers are getting from cash shops, p2w models that no one wants to make a traditional game with integrity again. This isn't going to change any time soon.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Better question,how many actual big developers are there,that would pretty much answer your question. The big developers already have large games,some have two,so what we see is all the little guys who really have no business PRETENDING they can build a AAA game flooding the market with crap 1990's looking games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Because the majority of people will not play it. If this wasn't the fact, we'd see the opposite.
I disagree, I think a lot of people would still play these games. The problem is there is so much money developers are getting from cash shops, p2w models that no one wants to make a traditional game with integrity again. This isn't going to change any time soon.
Define "a lot".
The publishers who fork out at least $60M want at least a million subscriptions for the first year or similar income from other payment models to make a MMO. I am not so convinced an oldschool MMO can pull off that many players, I am not even certain a new school could today.
AAA MMOs are insanely expensive to make and they take them. Most publisher CEOs wont wait 5 years to start recovering their investment even if they think they could earn large money on it, they want fast money before they move to another job.
And frankly if you must make an oldschool AAA MMO you would earn more money to license and make EQ with modern graphics, at least you would probably get a few 100K EQ fans and a lot of the design work would already be done.
I don't think an oldschool AAA MMO is what we need at the moment, Pantheon seems to be fulfilling what the oldschool needs anyways. For AAA we need a MMORPG like we never seen before, not a copy of earlier games, be that UO, EQ, Wow or ESO.
A lot of what makes people want a new oldschool MMO is nostalgia and that is fine, there are more then a few old players that could enjoy a game like that. A AAA game however needs to attract plenty of new players as well as old though and I just don't see the kids play something similar to EQ or UO today.
It's all about the quick buck now, none of these games are built for longevity anymore. Put out some simple crap, create some hype, thrown in some p2w.....cash in.
Saying that....it cracks me up that some of you think you are so clever with your "the same reason we are not using horse buggies or flip phones anymore". Why on Earth do you think we want an ancient experience? You can make a modern AAA MMO with old school features. MMOs have NOT evolved from what they were intended, they have devolved into something completely different. Throwing a shitload of people on a server and calling it an MMO does not make it one.
It's not so much that developers aren't making old school games in a modern time, it's that developers are so driven by the all mighty dollar, that things like challenge, community building aspects, anything that consumes time are thrown out because the generation of people want things easily, or, if they aren't, they bitch, cry, etc until the devs change it.
Whenever any said MMO releases content, it's consumed within a day or two, raids included. Why? Because it caters to being easy. Easy = less money spent by them = more money for the devs/company by bringing in more players who want easy.
It's quite simple... Make a game that is challenging, with a sense of danger in the world(How EQ did), force community driven aspects like no auction house so that players actually have to communicate with each other, get to know one another, make dungeons and raids non-instanced based so that everybody and their mother can't raid and get the loot on day 1. Bring back the sense of investing time into things cause right now, I could resub to wow or any current mmo and get geared on a character within a day or two, easily.
Whatever happened to seeing a player run around with a piece of gear that was rare and go oooo or aahhhhh, look at him, he's gotta be a bad ass or he beat x boss. We don't have that anymore. Walk around in any game and you see hundreds, if not thousands of ppl all with the same shit.
How about making a phone system that has the utility of digital and the security inherent in analog? Old technology solving the issues of new technology. It can happen you know.
There's definitely a crowd, yes, but that was more than a decade ago. Today, the crowds have converted into dads and moms who could barely play video games anymore, let alone invest most of their bare free time in time-consuming games like MMORPGs.
I consider myself an MMO addict back then when I was in school. I've made many friends online from MMOs, but most if not everyone of them now has moved on with their lives. They don't even have a gaming PC anymore.
Big studios don't take risk. They wait for someone else to prove the market exists and then try to do it better.
Also, Pantheon beta does not cost $1000, it costs $50. Neither does alpha, that's only $250. Only pre-alpha access was part of a $1000 pledge, and that too was originally only $250 but went up in price as time when on. You only want so many people seeing your game in a completely unfinished state. Giving everyone access would also make testing impossible.
Not a rant. Just don't understand it fully. EQ/UO/CoX/DAOC/SWG/ect All these games where the foundation of their MMO genres but since their release no one has really made a successor to any of them. The only real attempt have been by very little known companies that when they released them had very little resources for the game to be given any real shot. I feel like its just been bad luck on many parts of these games to have true successors (meaning basis of the game is the same just updated graphics and expanded mechanics to what was already tried and true). Also I feel the main reason is the greed for cash has made developers rush games or add things to the game that end up setting up their failure.
<snip> My point is there is a crowd out there of players that really want an old feeling game with just updated graphics and maybe a few new little features.
<snip>
Several points to consider.
Companies did make games similar to the first generation of MMORPGs. Only they evolved in ways you didn't like. WoW succeeded EQ. It came after, with updated 'graphics and expanded mechanics'.
Businesses look at the data they collect. Was this game profitable? If so, they call it success. Customer opinions of 'success' doesn't affect them.
With increased customer numbers and profitability, businesses interpret that as 'this is better than our competitors'. A businessman interprets that as "we're on the right path", and not as "turn back and embrace the ideas we just kicked to the side". The data they look at says "our way is better".
A business can interpret their data to determine how the marketplace thinks. Following the money, the conclusion that businesses come to is that "customers want the profitable product more". So, in the less profitable 'old-school' concepts aren't what the current players in the marketplace want.
Where is this 'crowd out there ... that really want an old feeling game'? Businesses can look at their data and deduce, these people have either dropped out of the market space, or they aren't really all that unsatisfied with our product because they keep paying us. Dissatisfied customers leave for another company; satisfied customers stay with us.
So, why do you think a business would make a new product based on the old ideas rather than the new ideas? After all, the numbers support the interpretation that the new ideas are better than the old.
Pardon me while I return to my corpse run. Maybe this time I'll manage to get my stuff back. Why can't I just pay to summon my corpse to a non-hostile zone and resurrect myself? Oh wait! That's how EQ evolved within itself. It's a great convenience feature, because who has the time to find a necromancer, convince them to help you, drag them to gods knows where, and summon your corpse to a safe(ish) spot in the zone for you to recover? You can do the old-school way, but people wanted a better way.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Not a rant. Just don't understand it fully. EQ/UO/CoX/DAOC/SWG/ect All these games where the foundation of their MMO genres but since their release no one has really made a successor to any of them. The only real attempt have been by very little known companies that when they released them had very little resources for the game to be given any real shot. I feel like its just been bad luck on many parts of these games to have true successors (meaning basis of the game is the same just updated graphics and expanded mechanics to what was already tried and true). Also I feel the main reason is the greed for cash has made developers rush games or add things to the game that end up setting up their failure.
<snip> My point is there is a crowd out there of players that really want an old feeling game with just updated graphics and maybe a few new little features.
<snip>
Several points to consider.
Companies did make games similar to the first generation of MMORPGs. Only they evolved in ways you didn't like. WoW succeeded EQ. It came after, with updated 'graphics and expanded mechanics'.
Businesses look at the data they collect. Was this game profitable? If so, they call it success. Customer opinions of 'success' doesn't affect them.
With increased customer numbers and profitability, businesses interpret that as 'this is better than our competitors'. A businessman interprets that as "we're on the right path", and not as "turn back and embrace the ideas we just kicked to the side". The data they look at says "our way is better".
A business can interpret their data to determine how the marketplace thinks. Following the money, the conclusion that businesses come to is that "customers want the profitable product more". So, in the less profitable 'old-school' concepts aren't what the current players in the marketplace want.
Where is this 'crowd out there ... that really want an old feeling game'? Businesses can look at their data and deduce, these people have either dropped out of the market space, or they aren't really all that unsatisfied with our product because they keep paying us. Dissatisfied customers leave for another company; satisfied customers stay with us.
So, why do you think a business would make a new product based on the old ideas rather than the new ideas? After all, the numbers support the interpretation that the new ideas are better than the old.
Pardon me while I return to my corpse run. Maybe this time I'll manage to get my stuff back. Why can't I just pay to summon my corpse to a non-hostile zone and resurrect myself? Oh wait! That's how EQ evolved within itself. It's a great convenience feature, because who has the time to find a necromancer, convince them to help you, drag them to gods knows where, and summon your corpse to a safe(ish) spot in the zone for you to recover? You can do the old-school way, but people wanted a better way.
In regards to the necromancer pulling your corpse, I would say for roleplaying and immersion reasons. Besides, you didn't need to have someone pull your corpse. I often avoided asking people for help or played a class that had all the things I felt I needed. I would only ask people for help with corpse recovery if I was desperate.
The fact that they are looking at it from a business standpoint only is sure to result in games that just aren't very interesting. Such is the case with most things that are assimilated into the mainstream. It has happened to other media in the past and has happened to games. You need to have a business person who actually cares about the game and the mechanics. One might say that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and many others cared about programming, hardware, etc., and not just making money. Nikola Tesla cared more about getting electricity to the masses than making money off it. This is not always the case, but gaming has become controlled by people who don't care about gaming and also has a user base who don't generally care about gaming either.
Big studios don't take risk. They wait for someone else to prove the market exists and then try to do it better.
Also, Pantheon beta does not cost $1000, it costs $50. Neither does alpha, that's only $250. Only pre-alpha access was part of a $1000 pledge, and that too was originally only $250 but went up in price as time when on. You only want so many people seeing your game in a completely unfinished state. Giving everyone access would also make testing impossible.
Thanks to the supporters, we'll have a new wave of mmorpg coming out. Crowd funding seems the only ways new mmorpg coming out this days.
Big developers pretty much stop making mmorpg completely.
Not a rant. Just don't understand it fully. EQ/UO/CoX/DAOC/SWG/ect All these games where the foundation of their MMO genres but since their release no one has really made a successor to any of them. The only real attempt have been by very little known companies that when they released them had very little resources for the game to be given any real shot. I feel like its just been bad luck on many parts of these games to have true successors (meaning basis of the game is the same just updated graphics and expanded mechanics to what was already tried and true). Also I feel the main reason is the greed for cash has made developers rush games or add things to the game that end up setting up their failure.
<snip> My point is there is a crowd out there of players that really want an old feeling game with just updated graphics and maybe a few new little features.
<snip>
Several points to consider.
Companies did make games similar to the first generation of MMORPGs. Only they evolved in ways you didn't like. WoW succeeded EQ. It came after, with updated 'graphics and expanded mechanics'.
Businesses look at the data they collect. Was this game profitable? If so, they call it success. Customer opinions of 'success' doesn't affect them.
With increased customer numbers and profitability, businesses interpret that as 'this is better than our competitors'. A businessman interprets that as "we're on the right path", and not as "turn back and embrace the ideas we just kicked to the side". The data they look at says "our way is better".
A business can interpret their data to determine how the marketplace thinks. Following the money, the conclusion that businesses come to is that "customers want the profitable product more". So, in the less profitable 'old-school' concepts aren't what the current players in the marketplace want.
Where is this 'crowd out there ... that really want an old feeling game'? Businesses can look at their data and deduce, these people have either dropped out of the market space, or they aren't really all that unsatisfied with our product because they keep paying us. Dissatisfied customers leave for another company; satisfied customers stay with us.
So, why do you think a business would make a new product based on the old ideas rather than the new ideas? After all, the numbers support the interpretation that the new ideas are better than the old.
Pardon me while I return to my corpse run. Maybe this time I'll manage to get my stuff back. Why can't I just pay to summon my corpse to a non-hostile zone and resurrect myself? Oh wait! That's how EQ evolved within itself. It's a great convenience feature, because who has the time to find a necromancer, convince them to help you, drag them to gods knows where, and summon your corpse to a safe(ish) spot in the zone for you to recover? You can do the old-school way, but people wanted a better way.
In regards to the necromancer pulling your corpse, I would say for roleplaying and immersion reasons. Besides, you didn't need to have someone pull your corpse. I often avoided asking people for help or played a class that had all the things I felt I needed. I would only ask people for help with corpse recovery if I was desperate.
The fact that they are looking at it from a business standpoint only is sure to result in games that just aren't very interesting. Such is the case with most things that are assimilated into the mainstream. It has happened to other media in the past and has happened to games. You need to have a business person who actually cares about the game and the mechanics. One might say that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and many others cared about programming, hardware, etc., and not just making money. Nikola Tesla cared more about getting electricity to the masses than making money off it. This is not always the case, but gaming has become controlled by people who don't care about gaming and also has a user base who don't generally care about gaming either.
Good luck finding an altrustic philanthropist wanting to build a game. Also, there's at least an equal number saying that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, et al., were more interested in the money than the coding.
Almost every business is set up to monitor the financials, and that includes all companies producing games. That includes all the 'indie' developer organizations that's the darling of these forums. All "indie" means is that the development organization is independent of a production company. But both are companies and look at their numbers. And those numbers only directly tell them about profits and losses, not customer satisfaction or quality of product or popularity of features.
As far as the 'controlled by people who don't care about gaming' sentiment, that's pretty much always been the case, for successful companies at least.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Yeah, the phone everyone wanted but no one is talking about or buying. I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who bought that phone. It's not even the same phone it was which could be the reason it flopped. Anyway all those old-fashioned limitations killed it.
This is what I expect will happen with most of the old school reboots. The fickle gamers, as you put it, will turn viciously on them and eat them up like we're want to do. It would be neat if it turned out differently though but I'm doubtful.
I think a lot of that might be perspective. They will get eaten up on the internet, where the gauge is WoW or ESO as a success measuring stick.
If they can support a core audience enough to turn the profit, I would venture to say most of these games won't be shut down, as it is a benefit of crowdfunding that you don't have to make anyone any "target revenue goal," but simply turn the profit enough to support a staff continuing to work on the game.
However, at this point, even those core bases aren't "proven," and they'll need to be ready to keep on paying the Piper after release to continue support of the title as they did prior to release. That might not be as easy as it seems.
Simple: because the large AAA studios develop for the masses and the masses have moved on to other games that don't demand as much attention or dedication: FPS, MOBAs and survival mini worlds.
Mmorpgs began as niche and would have stayed that way had it not been for the perfect storm created by WOW. WOW not only brought mmorpgs into the mainstream it actually penetrated non-gaming pop culture at a time when any kind of gaming, much less mmorpgs, was largely ignored by the mainstream.
This created a "mmorpgs are happening" bubble where every AAA studio with deep pockets assumed that this was the start of something big and that WOW numbers + were doable. And they weren't.
Players who actually enjoy deep and lengthy character development in virtual worlds are few and far between. The rest just came along for the ride for a short while because everyone was doing it. And as soon as they got there they started pushing back against core mmo and rpg staples simply because neither RPGs nor MMOs really were their type of game. They just didn't really like them.
What the AAA studios learned from MMORPGs in their prime however was that there is continued profit to be made from continued gameplay. So now they're changing their focus to "games as a service" trying to create long-lasting gaming environments while minimizing significantly both character development and large virtual world exploration.
As always, they continue to try to hit the financial home runs by giving the masses what they think they want and are leaving traditional mmorpgs to the small studios who might be content with the smaller profit potential catering to that niche group that still enjoys the long progression, large world games.
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The post I responded to said people were playing poor games only for their brand which I don't agree with, outside of a few outliers.
True, but the trouble is that many (not gazillions or anything) players buy a game based on IP and the company has made its money, forgoing chargebacks and returns. Digital returns are getting tougher to come by. EA cared so little about MEA (Middle Earth, I am assuming?) that they "upped the ante" with Battledfield 2. We'll see what happens in the future with EA...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Because the majority of people will not play it. If this wasn't the fact, we'd see the opposite.
Why does "the majority" have to play it? If this is how "they" reason, why have so many games? Shouldn't the most popular just be cloned again and again? I mean worse than it is now
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Why is Samsung afraid of making new analog phones?
So you're saying, by way of analogy, that current games are technologically better? They are, but older games could make use of that same technology, too, yes?
Can an analog phone surf the web like a smart phone? Heck, why aren't all Samsung phones smart phones?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There's definitely a crowd, yes, but that was more than a decade ago. Today, the crowds have converted into dads and moms who could barely play video games anymore, let alone invest most of their bare free time in time-consuming games like MMORPGs.
I consider myself an MMO addict back then when I was in school. I've made many friends online from MMOs, but most if not everyone of them now has moved on with their lives. They don't even have a gaming PC anymore.
The crowd has shifted to mobile users now.
So why does "this crowd" want an MMO of any kind?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
That's the power of brand recognition. It absolutely helped make MEA successful, despite widespread controversy. We're so conditioned to accepting it that we overlook the benefit that it gives products. MEA wasn't a failure so much as a disappointing success.
Because the majority of people will not play it. If this wasn't the fact, we'd see the opposite.
You stay sassy!
If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!
You stay sassy!
https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-3310
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The big developers already have large games,some have two,so what we see is all the little guys who really have no business PRETENDING they can build a AAA game flooding the market with crap 1990's looking games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The publishers who fork out at least $60M want at least a million subscriptions for the first year or similar income from other payment models to make a MMO. I am not so convinced an oldschool MMO can pull off that many players, I am not even certain a new school could today.
AAA MMOs are insanely expensive to make and they take them. Most publisher CEOs wont wait 5 years to start recovering their investment even if they think they could earn large money on it, they want fast money before they move to another job.
And frankly if you must make an oldschool AAA MMO you would earn more money to license and make EQ with modern graphics, at least you would probably get a few 100K EQ fans and a lot of the design work would already be done.
I don't think an oldschool AAA MMO is what we need at the moment, Pantheon seems to be fulfilling what the oldschool needs anyways. For AAA we need a MMORPG like we never seen before, not a copy of earlier games, be that UO, EQ, Wow or ESO.
A lot of what makes people want a new oldschool MMO is nostalgia and that is fine, there are more then a few old players that could enjoy a game like that. A AAA game however needs to attract plenty of new players as well as old though and I just don't see the kids play something similar to EQ or UO today.
Saying that....it cracks me up that some of you think you are so clever with your "the same reason we are not using horse buggies or flip phones anymore". Why on Earth do you think we want an ancient experience? You can make a modern AAA MMO with old school features. MMOs have NOT evolved from what they were intended, they have devolved into something completely different. Throwing a shitload of people on a server and calling it an MMO does not make it one.
Whenever any said MMO releases content, it's consumed within a day or two, raids included. Why? Because it caters to being easy. Easy = less money spent by them = more money for the devs/company by bringing in more players who want easy.
It's quite simple... Make a game that is challenging, with a sense of danger in the world(How EQ did), force community driven aspects like no auction house so that players actually have to communicate with each other, get to know one another, make dungeons and raids non-instanced based so that everybody and their mother can't raid and get the loot on day 1. Bring back the sense of investing time into things cause right now, I could resub to wow or any current mmo and get geared on a character within a day or two, easily.
Whatever happened to seeing a player run around with a piece of gear that was rare and go oooo or aahhhhh, look at him, he's gotta be a bad ass or he beat x boss. We don't have that anymore. Walk around in any game and you see hundreds, if not thousands of ppl all with the same shit.
How about making a phone system that has the utility of digital and the security inherent in analog? Old technology solving the issues of new technology. It can happen you know.
I consider myself an MMO addict back then when I was in school. I've made many friends online from MMOs, but most if not everyone of them now has moved on with their lives. They don't even have a gaming PC anymore.
The crowd has shifted to mobile users now.
Also, Pantheon beta does not cost $1000, it costs $50. Neither does alpha, that's only $250. Only pre-alpha access was part of a $1000 pledge, and that too was originally only $250 but went up in price as time when on. You only want so many people seeing your game in a completely unfinished state. Giving everyone access would also make testing impossible.
- Where is this 'crowd out there ... that really want an old feeling game'? Businesses can look at their data and deduce, these people have either dropped out of the market space, or they aren't really all that unsatisfied with our product because they keep paying us. Dissatisfied customers leave for another company; satisfied customers stay with us.
So, why do you think a business would make a new product based on the old ideas rather than the new ideas? After all, the numbers support the interpretation that the new ideas are better than the old.Pardon me while I return to my corpse run. Maybe this time I'll manage to get my stuff back. Why can't I just pay to summon my corpse to a non-hostile zone and resurrect myself? Oh wait! That's how EQ evolved within itself. It's a great convenience feature, because who has the time to find a necromancer, convince them to help you, drag them to gods knows where, and summon your corpse to a safe(ish) spot in the zone for you to recover? You can do the old-school way, but people wanted a better way.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The fact that they are looking at it from a business standpoint only is sure to result in games that just aren't very interesting. Such is the case with most things that are assimilated into the mainstream. It has happened to other media in the past and has happened to games. You need to have a business person who actually cares about the game and the mechanics. One might say that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and many others cared about programming, hardware, etc., and not just making money. Nikola Tesla cared more about getting electricity to the masses than making money off it. This is not always the case, but gaming has become controlled by people who don't care about gaming and also has a user base who don't generally care about gaming either.
Big developers pretty much stop making mmorpg completely.
Almost every business is set up to monitor the financials, and that includes all companies producing games. That includes all the 'indie' developer organizations that's the darling of these forums. All "indie" means is that the development organization is independent of a production company. But both are companies and look at their numbers. And those numbers only directly tell them about profits and losses, not customer satisfaction or quality of product or popularity of features.
As far as the 'controlled by people who don't care about gaming' sentiment, that's pretty much always been the case, for successful companies at least.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
If they can support a core audience enough to turn the profit, I would venture to say most of these games won't be shut down, as it is a benefit of crowdfunding that you don't have to make anyone any "target revenue goal," but simply turn the profit enough to support a staff continuing to work on the game.
However, at this point, even those core bases aren't "proven," and they'll need to be ready to keep on paying the Piper after release to continue support of the title as they did prior to release. That might not be as easy as it seems.
Mmorpgs began as niche and would have stayed that way had it not been for the perfect storm created by WOW. WOW not only brought mmorpgs into the mainstream it actually penetrated non-gaming pop culture at a time when any kind of gaming, much less mmorpgs, was largely ignored by the mainstream.
This created a "mmorpgs are happening" bubble where every AAA studio with deep pockets assumed that this was the start of something big and that WOW numbers + were doable. And they weren't.
Players who actually enjoy deep and lengthy character development in virtual worlds are few and far between. The rest just came along for the ride for a short while because everyone was doing it. And as soon as they got there they started pushing back against core mmo and rpg staples simply because neither RPGs nor MMOs really were their type of game. They just didn't really like them.
What the AAA studios learned from MMORPGs in their prime however was that there is continued profit to be made from continued gameplay. So now they're changing their focus to "games as a service" trying to create long-lasting gaming environments while minimizing significantly both character development and large virtual world exploration.
As always, they continue to try to hit the financial home runs by giving the masses what they think they want and are leaving traditional mmorpgs to the small studios who might be content with the smaller profit potential catering to that niche group that still enjoys the long progression, large world games.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Can an analog phone surf the web like a smart phone? Heck, why aren't all Samsung phones smart phones?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR