A lot of people talk about wanting this type of game again. There are a lot more people not talking about it because they are content playing the type of games we have now.
The reality is most players aren't seeking old school play. If they were the older games still available would have a larger audience.
Old school MMORPGs aren't offered massively because they don't have mass market appeal.
I think that's just too simplistic.
So, for example, I want an older game. What are the older "type" games I'm playing right now? None. Why?
Well, I was very happy with vanguard and was subscribing to it right up to the announcement it was getting canceled. Ok, done with that.
Lineage 2 was my first game but they've changed it too much from the game it was. I don't really like "the new lineage 2". So done.
I tried Everquest and can deal with the old look but the controls drive me batty. However, it's always a possibility if no new mmorpg's are created with some of the more modern niceties (which to me is just a decent control scheme).
Also, there is something about playing a game for years and years and years and wanting something a little different.
It's a hard thing to balance as I'm sure developers want to give new content and new experiences but if they change the game too much then they lose a certain part of their demographic.
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
hmmm, I think jobs saw the GUI from Xerox, loved it, those in charge didn't know what to do with it, so he essentially bought it (much to the chagrin of those who were working on it).
Then Bill Gates adopted (stole? whatever) a similar concept for Windows.
It's very ok to see technology and legally acquire it for your own work.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
hmmm, I think jobs saw the GUI from Xerox, loved it, those in charge didn't know what to do with it, so he essentially bought it (much to the chagrin of those who were working on it).
Then Bill Gates adopted (stole? whatever) a similar concept for Windows.
It's very ok to see technology and legally acquire it for your own work.
To my knowledge Jobs made some type of deal that allowed him to get a tour of Xerox and what they were working on. I can't seem to see any references to him paying for anything specific other than to see it. He was very excited when viewing a computer that had a graphical user interface and started shouting about why they weren't doing anything with this amazing technology. He then started working on a GUI of his own. Xerox was never able to sell their own computer with mouse and GUI for varous reasons. I guess they just didn't have the vision. Jobs told Gates about it and he said he would develop software for the OS. He did this until Microsoft's contract with Apple expired and Gates eventually released Windows which actually took quite a while to produce. Apparently, this was brought to court, but the judge said no one owns the idea of a GUI because it's a metaphor.
No game like EQ has ever come out again. Closes thing was vanguard. Vanguard had a ton of players at the start but then they realized the game was not complete. Everyone left. I remember killing a level 45 mob and it did not drop loot. Or fighting a caster NPC where it was just punching me because it's spells weren't even put into the game yet. No one has touched a game like it since. Pantheon has a chance to be like EQ but it's being funded and developed by someone who not many trust anymore, so that will ward off many in the mean time. It's also obvious by the Pay 1000$ to beta test that the guy is still only out for money. His team has always been the real reason the games have done well. Soon as Pantheon hits a hard patch mark my words that dude is going to bail on his team and us.
UO. Legends of Aria is the closes thing I can remember to it but its not the same and right now the funding is very limited for LoA. Will be released and be a niche game. It's funny because the real game that was a true successor to this was Darkfall. Darkfall was created by a guy who could inspire the room but in truth had very limited experience and was only able to deliver on like 20% of his promise. The game was also broken. But what I find funny is that the game was wanted SO badly by old school MMO players (and new) that even with the bad shape of the game, people tried to keep it alive in hopes that it was fixed. The money grab was so good for Adventurine that they remade it in hopes of grabbing a few more dollars. Now that the games name is in the mud, there are still two developers who loved the game that much that are trying to revive it. Sadly it will just be a niche again. This will stray developers and funders away from making something like it in the future.
(snip)
There have been a LOT of small MMORPGs which used bits and pieces of EQ and UO over the years. Most of them were small enough to afford to. The bigger companies won't do that. The mechanics were noticeably old school. If you missed these, it's on you. All it requires is some googling and humility. I know you want bigger outfits to do this, but that's not how it works in the real world.
What stands out in my mind is Wurm Online. It's almost exactly what UO 2 would have been like, minus teleporting and death system, and mostly devoted to building rather than PvE. I played both. I played UO in 1999 and later played on player-run servers. I also played EQ during that time. I plaeyd Wurm Online in 2012 and off/on since. It really is a lot like UO, but more sandbox-oriented. Watch this video, the person speaking actually says this is what many of us playing UO dreamed of: Watch the whole damn video if you have to. And let it sink in. Or don't.
EDIT: Another game which might be like UO is Linkrealms. However, it has had a lot of trouble in development. Pls note this is just ONE example. I'm not going to do the work for you. This is on you! (and your big mouth?) http://store.steampowered.com/app/402450/Linkrealms/
No game like EQ has ever come out again. Closes thing was vanguard. Vanguard had a ton of players at the start but then they realized the game was not complete. Everyone left. I remember killing a level 45 mob and it did not drop loot. Or fighting a caster NPC where it was just punching me because it's spells weren't even put into the game yet. No one has touched a game like it since. Pantheon has a chance to be like EQ but it's being funded and developed by someone who not many trust anymore, so that will ward off many in the mean time. It's also obvious by the Pay 1000$ to beta test that the guy is still only out for money. His team has always been the real reason the games have done well. Soon as Pantheon hits a hard patch mark my words that dude is going to bail on his team and us.
UO. Legends of Aria is the closes thing I can remember to it but its not the same and right now the funding is very limited for LoA. Will be released and be a niche game. It's funny because the real game that was a true successor to this was Darkfall. Darkfall was created by a guy who could inspire the room but in truth had very limited experience and was only able to deliver on like 20% of his promise. The game was also broken. But what I find funny is that the game was wanted SO badly by old school MMO players (and new) that even with the bad shape of the game, people tried to keep it alive in hopes that it was fixed. The money grab was so good for Adventurine that they remade it in hopes of grabbing a few more dollars. Now that the games name is in the mud, there are still two developers who loved the game that much that are trying to revive it. Sadly it will just be a niche again. This will stray developers and funders away from making something like it in the future.
(snip)
I won't examine your logic. I'll just take at face value.
There have been a LOT of small MMORPGs which used bits and pieces of EQ and UO over the years. Most of them were small enough to afford to. The bigger companies won't do that. The mechanics were noticeably old school. If you missed these, it's on you. All it requires is some googling and humility.
What stands out in my mind is Wurm Online. It's almost exactly what UO 2 would have been like, minus teleporting and death system, and mostly devoted to building rather than PvE. I played both. I played UO in 1999 and later played on player-run servers. I also played EQ during that time. I plaeyd Wurm Online in 2012 and off/on since. It really is a lot like UO, but more sandbox-oriented. Watch this video, the person speaking actually says this is what many of us playing UO dreamed of: Watch the whole damn video if you have to. And let it sink in. Or don't.
Hmm, Not really sure why you are attacking me personally by calling me a "Damn Fool". This thread was not only about UO so I am going to assume you took one small part of my post and ran with it. You state, "What stands out in my mind is Wurm Online. It's almost exactly what UO 2 would have been like, minus teleporting and death system, and mostly devoted to building rather than PvE." So, mostly NOT like UO?
I loved UO and I kinda feel like you are like me upset that there was never a real UO 2 replacement that had a chance out the gate, but using WURM online as your centerpiece is really reaching. I don't know if you actually paid attention to WURM online during development or just grabbed that video off google and called it a day. I followed WURM online but it was a given that it was NOTHING like UO. It was Minecraft with non-child graphics and actually seamless world servers. THE founders/makers of the game even stated that this was a survival MMO and NOT a MMORPG. While UO had it's freedom and sandbox ...it did not focus the entire game on crafting and building. It allowed you to become engrossed into your character. Building skills, communicating with people, exploring, ect. WURM on luanch only had around 60 people playing on a server during the week and maybe 200 on the weekend. There was no social aspect to the game and you didn't even see people for an ENTIRE week while playing. The game got a 60 out of 100 across the board for most review sites out the gate. The UI was broken, the servers had communication issues. Know how many times the game told me to slow down because my position wasn't updated lol. But it was very robust in it's Minecraft capabilities. You could build A LOT. But Wurm online was far far FAR from the UO2 we wanted.
But going back to my post. It's in the title of the post. My point is that I wish a BIG license/developer would create an OLD school MMO we all wanted. Meaning not only gameplay like the Old School MMO's we played and loved but also using a LEGIT license that will draw in the crowd. Darkfall tried making a UO 2 but was missing a lot of the building aspects but did well on the PVP, but at the end of the day it was a tiny development company with no funding/backing to support a large game. Wurm online...was a fraction of even Darkfall and lacked in the PVP/PVE aspect but went to far in with crafting making it so time consuming that there was no character growth that would draw in atleast semi-casual players. But using a big developer as an example, Sony announced Everquest next and people were hyped and came flocking. So much so that Sony released EQ lankmark alpha/beta and it sold more then Darkfall and Wurm combined after first week of sales because people wanted to test things that would be in EQ Next, not really because they were looking to play a building game longterm. Big developer and big License. That's what I am waiting for that isn't just a wow clone (Star Wars old Republic...ugh). Just want to be clear of what the main topic of my post was trying to get across.
As a side convo, I feel like new MMO players arent given enough credit. People feel like the new MMO player is to casual and wouldnt accept an older style MMO. Small pool but my Son and his friends play video games all the time. They play the big games like Destiny/Battlefront ect but they spend more time on games that are based off retro gaming like Terraria and many I.O based games (for those that don't those are browser games that have many PVP similarities to old school games but broken down to their bare basics). They all play hardcore trying to break records and gain hard achievements. These are very time consuming and sometimes takes weeks. Very similar to groups of people trying to get strats down to take down a boss in EQ raid or being on of the first guilds to drop a castle on a server, ect.
My point is that if the gameplay and world is done right it will draw people in. It's all about gameplay not how amazing the graphics are or how easy the game is to play is to jump into instantly to get instant satisfaction. If the hardwork you put into a game is worth it, then anyone will play.
EDIT: Another game which might be like UO is Linkrealms. However, it has had a lot of trouble in development. Pls note this is just ONE example. I'm not going to do the work for you. This is on you! (and your big mouth?) http://store.steampowered.com/app/402450/Linkrealms/
Ok Hawkaya whats your problem? Could you quote something I said that was aggressive or attacking someone? I was very constructive the entire time I posted on this thread. I type like I speak in person because I am content and confident with who I am. I also am not a fan of bullies which I am starting to believe you are, even in your passive aggressive state. But with your edit *which I read after I replied to your thread the first time* I stand by everything I said. Yes there have been a lot of small games that have taken gameplay from EQ/UO, ect but the point of this thread was about BIG developers. Saying that these small games have failed because they used old school gameplay instead of the apparent facts that they failed because they had a very limited budget/inexperienced development team is very short sided.
Lastly, I don't need you to do the work for me. I am a retired United States Marine with 3 combat tours. Now I work as a Detective for a large west coast city (Top 10 population). The only reason I am stating this is because you seem to be treating me like some lazy person who wants and wants but isn't willing to put any work into it. Not really sure how you came to that conclusion from my post I can assure you that is not me. Now if you want to be constructive and discuss that actual topic of this thread I am all in but if you just want to continue attacking me with baseless statements you continue as you have. That's not worth my time or anyone's time for that matter.
Linkrealms was very promising. Seemed to get a lot of support at the start but the inexperience and lack of funding doomed this game. Heck their website now has lost its certification and comes up as a security risk when opening it in chrome. "It's dead Jim, It's dead". We need a big developer who isn't going to fail during the last stretch of production and released a broken/underdeveloped game. See it through.
Edit: Spelled your name Hawkeye instead of Hawkaya..corrected it.
I started palying Wurm Online in 2012 and have played it since. I've enjoyed it more than any MMO I've ever played. Mere words cannot do it justice. It does remind me a lot of UO and EQ. It's very, no, VERY hard to find a MMO with mechanics similar to an old MMO. And it's those mechanics which make it old school IMHO. You just aren't going to find big developers do that--that's why I ask where's your humility? I'm able to accept less RPG and more sandbox. This translates to crafting and building having priority over fighting and questing. I also accept the 400-1000+ population in Wurm. It also has Wurm Unlimited for custom servers or offline play. Wurm Unlimited hit the population somewhat on live, but that's ok. This doesn't mean I will accept everything Wurm might do to appeal to others. It just means so far I've accepted the tradeoffs.
You do have many choices. You just expect too much, IMHO.
EDIT: I also play3ed some MUDs over the years to scratch that itch. Have you ever tried those? Or are they beneath you?
Once you realize big developers aren't going to make these, I think you'll come around. But I'm not sure it'll ever happen. You might possibly change your definition of old school to fit a modern standard. I grant you, a modern AAA developer might use "old school!" in its feature list, but it's anything but old school. I'm sure you'd eat it all up too because you dearly want to believe a big maker will do it.
Let me tell you a story. It was way back in 2012 in late July. I was logged on Serenity, busily exploring the lands--literally hours away from where I'd respawn if I died. I did die a couple times. I remember idling at the edge of the water for probably 40 minutes because I had wounds. Swimming is dangerous! So anyway someone in chat said Wurm should have more modern things. Someone else said to the effect "Wurm Online shouldn't compete with other big makers. It doesn't have the budget or the talent. It'd fail. It's better for it to fill a niche because the big makers are less likely to produce for a small audience." Those aren't the exact words, but that thinking is correct. The person who said that BTW liked to raid settlements. I fled so I'd not get caught up in it. Honestly I fled for other reasons too. I still remember those people fondly though.
Because the majority of people will not play it. If this wasn't the fact, we'd see the opposite.
I disagree, I think a lot of people would still play these games. The problem is there is so much money developers are getting from cash shops, p2w models that no one wants to make a traditional game with integrity again. This isn't going to change any time soon.
This right here ^^^^ 100000%
No. The person says "a lot," and that's an extremely subjective word to use. When you have such huge budgets to develop a game "a lot" to the developers may not mean the same thing as "a lot" to someone desperate for a AAA MMORPG of that type.
Heretique is right. The market for this type of game is niche. The success of WoW is a blatant proof of that, and players are looking for different things in games these days - i.e. more competitive aspects to them, PvP, etc.
Cash shops are successful because a "Free" game will rope more players in (no need to pay $49.99 + Subscription - which is a huge barrier for people in developing markets, and those who don't have a CC i.e. impressionable minors). The cash shop allows those people to give you nickles and dimes. When you have a huge playerbase, the profits can end up being higher than subscriptions from much less people.
Cash shop model works due to economics, and the reason why AAA developers aren't going for these games is due to economics.
Most games of this style are dead or dying on the vine. The only post-WoW MMORPGs that have found success are... quite similar to WoW (FFXIV), F2P, or B2P with cash shops.
The few games that had potential to appeal to this niche (like BDO, GW2) have virtually no PvE end game and are heavily biased to PvP.
I think the majority of players who would prefer this game have moved on, either to other genres, consoles, or out of the gaming community altogether (life, family, etc.). There simply aren't the numbers there to justify the development and maintenance costs.
100 loud posters on MMORPG.com who think their arguments are flawlessly logical don't create a market. The people and companies developing these games have a decade+ of history and market research to base their decisions on.
Most post-EQ, EQ-like games have failed... Most of them failed to attract the kinds of numbers you see with WoW or FFXIV. Indies or Startups may be fine with low expectations, because they're running off of Kickstarter and Angel Investors. Large companies like Blizzard... not so much.
Vanguard's player base size was only a tiny fraction of WoW's even at it's peak. That's the biggest reasons why the defections destroyed it so quickly. The same thing happened to other games, like Warhammer online and Age of Conan.
When your player base is heavily niche, the entire project increases exponentially in risk. Any mistakes have a magnified consequence on the viability of the game. Think of how many players WoW has lost since WotLK, yet how many more subscribers it STILL HAS compared to virtually every other MMORPG on the market. That's the benefit of casting a wide net, and why bigger developers are avoiding these older niches.
They aren't "scared," they're sane and fiscally responsible.
It's not so much that developers aren't making old school games in a modern time, it's that developers are so driven by the all mighty dollar, that things like challenge, community building aspects, anything that consumes time are thrown out because the generation of people want things easily, or, if they aren't, they bitch, cry, etc until the devs change it.
Whenever any said MMO releases content, it's consumed within a day or two, raids included. Why? Because it caters to being easy. Easy = less money spent by them = more money for the devs/company by bringing in more players who want easy.
It's quite simple... Make a game that is challenging, with a sense of danger in the world(How EQ did), force community driven aspects like no auction house so that players actually have to communicate with each other, get to know one another, make dungeons and raids non-instanced based so that everybody and their mother can't raid and get the loot on day 1. Bring back the sense of investing time into things cause right now, I could resub to wow or any current mmo and get geared on a character within a day or two, easily.
Whatever happened to seeing a player run around with a piece of gear that was rare and go oooo or aahhhhh, look at him, he's gotta be a bad ass or he beat x boss. We don't have that anymore. Walk around in any game and you see hundreds, if not thousands of ppl all with the same shit.
You speak the truth. Many times this is exactly what defines old school. And this is exactly why big makers won't do it. The population desiring this is too small. Even when they get it right and produce for a small audience, they still have to live with constant complaints from new players and even veterans. This is coming from people who don't yet realize this isn't for them and from the deniers I'll discuss below.
Some people are in denial about it. They might think old school is lots of classes, or lots of diversity in character development and NPC conversation, or some other arcane thing. Yet they then think it's ok to remove the things you explain above, things like frustrating challenges or time consuming activities or even player interdependencies. They redefine challenge so it omits frustration, amounting to the situation we have today where challenge isn't actually challenging. They're like people who think we can have a cake and eat it too. Like those people who think handing out trophies for merely participating is equal and BETTER than not. At the end of the day, these people will continue to deny and there's no way to make them see the truth. The best way to deal with them is not to and simply go on with your life.
It HURTS. Old school HURTS. A actual challenge means you lose a lot because you're still learning. And sometimes your attentions slips and you LOSE. It HURTS. Sometimes you die from things you can't prevent because the game doesn't protect you. How many times do I have to say HURT??? It's never enough!
I have treemendous respect for peopel who can come out and admit they want a more relaxed game. One where they can leave the game running to do things in RL and come back and everything is ok. Where they don't need to be consistently strategic or tactical or sharply aware of their surroundings. It's something that's plug and play. Easier on the nerves. At least they're honest. RESPECT.
I'm still hurting from playing Dark Souls 2 expansion. I've died so many times on bosses before defeating them that I've become numb to the pain. I think I have one crown left to get and I'm done. I love it when you are faced with 4-6 mobs that can kill you in one or two hits. The other great one is a mob that takes many hits to kill and it only needs one hit. During the fight, you end up having to dodge with perfect timing to avoid attacks.
I think playing easy games can be fun if the story is good, but quite often it's not for me. I like to test myself sometimes and see if I have the determination to get through the frustration while still remaining calm.
I'm still hurting from playing Dark Souls 2 expansion. I've died so many times on bosses before defeating them that I've become numb to the pain. I think I have one crown left to get and I'm done. I love it when you are faced with 4-6 mobs that can kill you in one or two hits. The other great one is a mob that takes many hits to kill and it only needs one hit. During the fight, you end up having to dodge with perfect timing to avoid attacks.
I think playing easy games can be fun if the story is good, but quite often it's not for me. I like to test myself sometimes and see if I have the determination to get through the frustration while still remaining calm.
There are probably quite a some people who tried dark soul, find it too difficult and quit. I watched some play through/reaction video of dark soul. There are people just quit midway which isn't exactly good for mmorpg because developer want people to keep playing and paying. It is a double edged sword, it'll draw some crowd and shine away some too.
hmmm, I think jobs saw the GUI from Xerox, loved it, those in charge didn't know what to do with it, so he essentially bought it (much to the chagrin of those who were working on it).
Then Bill Gates adopted (stole? whatever) a similar concept for Windows.
It's very ok to see technology and legally acquire it for your own work.
To my knowledge Jobs made some type of deal that allowed him to get a tour of Xerox and what they were working on. I can't seem to see any references to him paying for anything specific other than to see it. He was very excited when viewing a computer that had a graphical user interface and started shouting about why they weren't doing anything with this amazing technology. He then started working on a GUI of his own. Xerox was never able to sell their own computer with mouse and GUI for varous reasons. I guess they just didn't have the vision. Jobs told Gates about it and he said he would develop software for the OS. He did this until Microsoft's contract with Apple expired and Gates eventually released Windows which actually took quite a while to produce. Apparently, this was brought to court, but the judge said no one owns the idea of a GUI because it's a metaphor.
I remember seeing an interview where he bought it from Xerox and those who were working on it weren't happy. However, their managers/bosses, whatever, didn't see the value in it.
I'm still hurting from playing Dark Souls 2 expansion. I've died so many times on bosses before defeating them that I've become numb to the pain. I think I have one crown left to get and I'm done. I love it when you are faced with 4-6 mobs that can kill you in one or two hits. The other great one is a mob that takes many hits to kill and it only needs one hit. During the fight, you end up having to dodge with perfect timing to avoid attacks.
I think playing easy games can be fun if the story is good, but quite often it's not for me. I like to test myself sometimes and see if I have the determination to get through the frustration while still remaining calm.
There are probably quite a some people who tried dark soul, find it too difficult and quit. I watched some play through/reaction video of dark soul. There are people just quit midway which isn't exactly good for mmorpg because developer want people to keep playing and paying. It is a double edged sword, it'll draw some crowd and shine away some too.
That's true, but not every game has to be for everyone. Some people find games that are too simple a bit dull and quit as well. To each their own.
I'm still hurting from playing Dark Souls 2 expansion. I've died so many times on bosses before defeating them that I've become numb to the pain. I think I have one crown left to get and I'm done. I love it when you are faced with 4-6 mobs that can kill you in one or two hits. The other great one is a mob that takes many hits to kill and it only needs one hit. During the fight, you end up having to dodge with perfect timing to avoid attacks.
I think playing easy games can be fun if the story is good, but quite often it's not for me. I like to test myself sometimes and see if I have the determination to get through the frustration while still remaining calm.
There are probably quite a some people who tried dark soul, find it too difficult and quit. I watched some play through/reaction video of dark soul. There are people just quit midway which isn't exactly good for mmorpg because developer want people to keep playing and paying. It is a double edged sword, it'll draw some crowd and shine away some too.
That's true, but not every game has to be for everyone. Some people find games that are too simple a bit dull and quit as well. To each their own.
It's a matter of how big that pool of players is. The big companies don't think the paying pool for 'old school' is worth the trouble. Now they can be wrong (just look at the Star Citizen river of gold), but that's what informs them. And they can produce games for less that make a lot of money.
As far as Dark Souls goes, I read up on it, determined it wasn't in my play style, and never bought a single one. Now, if anyone ever delivers a new City of Heroes style game, my wallet will open.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
There's no money in it. And the development time and budget required for an MMORPG is enormous.
You don't know that, though. The WoW fad is over. Players are getting older and are yearning for more depth and complexity.
The WoW FAD isn't over. The only successful MMORPGs on a wide scale since WoW's release have aped it, so even if people are getting tired of WoW - specifically - the formula it cultivated is still the status quo.
The FAD isn't over. It's just that it's "originator" is old and over the hill. The games that are really reaping the benefits of WoW's expanding the MMORPG market are using its formula to achieve that success.
Games like EverQuest and Lineage II can and will not achieve that kind of success in 2018. If their niche isn't too fragmented, they may be able to carve out a nice part of the market in which they can exist in viability, but it's very risky to live there (competition can destroy you in record time).
WoW was able to survive as well as it had, because it was inclusive and cast a wide net. Even if it lost half of it is peak players, that still leaves it with ~4-5M, which is still massive.
Because that same game would cost more than 2.5 million to make today.
Office space office supplies everything to do with the business and especially salaries all cost much more than they did 15 years ago. This alone would make it cost more.
Now add to that the better graphics people with want.
It seems to be a risk that most devs are saying is not worth it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The real question is why do you want a AAA Publisher to make an Old School MMORPG? If I remember correctly most AAA Publishers were not publicly traded companies when they created their MMORPGS. UO was bought by EA. Blizzard was not publicly traded until after TBC was out. SOE might have been publicly traded when EQ was out but I would have to look. Dark Age of Camelot was owned by Mythic before EA bought them. So yea there were some who were publicly traded but not all. Ever since all these AAA Publishers went to publicly traded companies they went from caring about their customers to 100% caring about stockholders.
When you put Stockholders before your gamers in video games you get the crap we have today. Why do you think so many people are looking forward to Indy games? Because they are putting the Gamer first not Stockholders.
Because that same game would cost more than 2.5 million to make today.
Even if it is still costing $2.5M and they can make a bit of money .. why bother with such a small scale business?
Big companies don't care if a product is not in the hundred of million $ range. It is a waste of their attention. Basically they let small companies take the smaller markets.
Comments
So, for example, I want an older game. What are the older "type" games I'm playing right now? None. Why?
Well, I was very happy with vanguard and was subscribing to it right up to the announcement it was getting canceled. Ok, done with that.
Lineage 2 was my first game but they've changed it too much from the game it was. I don't really like "the new lineage 2". So done.
I tried Everquest and can deal with the old look but the controls drive me batty. However, it's always a possibility if no new mmorpg's are created with some of the more modern niceties (which to me is just a decent control scheme).
Also, there is something about playing a game for years and years and years and wanting something a little different.
It's a hard thing to balance as I'm sure developers want to give new content and new experiences but if they change the game too much then they lose a certain part of their demographic.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Then Bill Gates adopted (stole? whatever) a similar concept for Windows.
It's very ok to see technology and legally acquire it for your own work.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What stands out in my mind is Wurm Online. It's almost exactly what UO 2 would have been like, minus teleporting and death system, and mostly devoted to building rather than PvE. I played both. I played UO in 1999 and later played on player-run servers. I also played EQ during that time. I plaeyd Wurm Online in 2012 and off/on since. It really is a lot like UO, but more sandbox-oriented. Watch this video, the person speaking actually says this is what many of us playing UO dreamed of:
Watch the whole damn video if you have to. And let it sink in. Or don't.
EDIT: Another game which might be like UO is Linkrealms. However, it has had a lot of trouble in development. Pls note this is just ONE example. I'm not going to do the work for you. This is on you! (and your big mouth?)
http://store.steampowered.com/app/402450/Linkrealms/
I loved UO and I kinda feel like you are like me upset that there was never a real UO 2 replacement that had a chance out the gate, but using WURM online as your centerpiece is really reaching. I don't know if you actually paid attention to WURM online during development or just grabbed that video off google and called it a day. I followed WURM online but it was a given that it was NOTHING like UO. It was Minecraft with non-child graphics and actually seamless world servers. THE founders/makers of the game even stated that this was a survival MMO and NOT a MMORPG. While UO had it's freedom and sandbox ...it did not focus the entire game on crafting and building. It allowed you to become engrossed into your character. Building skills, communicating with people, exploring, ect. WURM on luanch only had around 60 people playing on a server during the week and maybe 200 on the weekend. There was no social aspect to the game and you didn't even see people for an ENTIRE week while playing. The game got a 60 out of 100 across the board for most review sites out the gate. The UI was broken, the servers had communication issues. Know how many times the game told me to slow down because my position wasn't updated lol. But it was very robust in it's Minecraft capabilities. You could build A LOT. But Wurm online was far far FAR from the UO2 we wanted.
But going back to my post. It's in the title of the post. My point is that I wish a BIG license/developer would create an OLD school MMO we all wanted. Meaning not only gameplay like the Old School MMO's we played and loved but also using a LEGIT license that will draw in the crowd. Darkfall tried making a UO 2 but was missing a lot of the building aspects but did well on the PVP, but at the end of the day it was a tiny development company with no funding/backing to support a large game. Wurm online...was a fraction of even Darkfall and lacked in the PVP/PVE aspect but went to far in with crafting making it so time consuming that there was no character growth that would draw in atleast semi-casual players. But using a big developer as an example, Sony announced Everquest next and people were hyped and came flocking. So much so that Sony released EQ lankmark alpha/beta and it sold more then Darkfall and Wurm combined after first week of sales because people wanted to test things that would be in EQ Next, not really because they were looking to play a building game longterm. Big developer and big License. That's what I am waiting for that isn't just a wow clone (Star Wars old Republic...ugh). Just want to be clear of what the main topic of my post was trying to get across.
As a side convo, I feel like new MMO players arent given enough credit. People feel like the new MMO player is to casual and wouldnt accept an older style MMO. Small pool but my Son and his friends play video games all the time. They play the big games like Destiny/Battlefront ect but they spend more time on games that are based off retro gaming like Terraria and many I.O based games (for those that don't those are browser games that have many PVP similarities to old school games but broken down to their bare basics). They all play hardcore trying to break records and gain hard achievements. These are very time consuming and sometimes takes weeks. Very similar to groups of people trying to get strats down to take down a boss in EQ raid or being on of the first guilds to drop a castle on a server, ect.
My point is that if the gameplay and world is done right it will draw people in. It's all about gameplay not how amazing the graphics are or how easy the game is to play is to jump into instantly to get instant satisfaction. If the hardwork you put into a game is worth it, then anyone will play.
Lastly, I don't need you to do the work for me. I am a retired United States Marine with 3 combat tours. Now I work as a Detective for a large west coast city (Top 10 population). The only reason I am stating this is because you seem to be treating me like some lazy person who wants and wants but isn't willing to put any work into it. Not really sure how you came to that conclusion from my post I can assure you that is not me. Now if you want to be constructive and discuss that actual topic of this thread I am all in but if you just want to continue attacking me with baseless statements you continue as you have. That's not worth my time or anyone's time for that matter.
Linkrealms was very promising. Seemed to get a lot of support at the start but the inexperience and lack of funding doomed this game. Heck their website now has lost its certification and comes up as a security risk when opening it in chrome. "It's dead Jim, It's dead". We need a big developer who isn't going to fail during the last stretch of production and released a broken/underdeveloped game. See it through.
Edit: Spelled your name Hawkeye instead of Hawkaya..corrected it.
You do have many choices. You just expect too much, IMHO.
EDIT: I also play3ed some MUDs over the years to scratch that itch. Have you ever tried those? Or are they beneath you?
Once you realize big developers aren't going to make these, I think you'll come around. But I'm not sure it'll ever happen. You might possibly change your definition of old school to fit a modern standard. I grant you, a modern AAA developer might use "old school!" in its feature list, but it's anything but old school. I'm sure you'd eat it all up too because you dearly want to believe a big maker will do it.
Let me tell you a story. It was way back in 2012 in late July. I was logged on Serenity, busily exploring the lands--literally hours away from where I'd respawn if I died. I did die a couple times. I remember idling at the edge of the water for probably 40 minutes because I had wounds. Swimming is dangerous! So anyway someone in chat said Wurm should have more modern things. Someone else said to the effect "Wurm Online shouldn't compete with other big makers. It doesn't have the budget or the talent. It'd fail. It's better for it to fill a niche because the big makers are less likely to produce for a small audience." Those aren't the exact words, but that thinking is correct. The person who said that BTW liked to raid settlements. I fled so I'd not get caught up in it. Honestly I fled for other reasons too. I still remember those people fondly though.
No. The person says "a lot," and that's an extremely subjective word to use. When you have such huge budgets to develop a game "a lot" to the developers may not mean the same thing as "a lot" to someone desperate for a AAA MMORPG of that type.
Heretique is right. The market for this type of game is niche. The success of WoW is a blatant proof of that, and players are looking for different things in games these days - i.e. more competitive aspects to them, PvP, etc.
Cash shops are successful because a "Free" game will rope more players in (no need to pay $49.99 + Subscription - which is a huge barrier for people in developing markets, and those who don't have a CC i.e. impressionable minors). The cash shop allows those people to give you nickles and dimes. When you have a huge playerbase, the profits can end up being higher than subscriptions from much less people.
Cash shop model works due to economics, and the reason why AAA developers aren't going for these games is due to economics.
Most games of this style are dead or dying on the vine. The only post-WoW MMORPGs that have found success are... quite similar to WoW (FFXIV), F2P, or B2P with cash shops.
The few games that had potential to appeal to this niche (like BDO, GW2) have virtually no PvE end game and are heavily biased to PvP.
I think the majority of players who would prefer this game have moved on, either to other genres, consoles, or out of the gaming community altogether (life, family, etc.). There simply aren't the numbers there to justify the development and maintenance costs.
100 loud posters on MMORPG.com who think their arguments are flawlessly logical don't create a market. The people and companies developing these games have a decade+ of history and market research to base their decisions on.
Most post-EQ, EQ-like games have failed... Most of them failed to attract the kinds of numbers you see with WoW or FFXIV. Indies or Startups may be fine with low expectations, because they're running off of Kickstarter and Angel Investors. Large companies like Blizzard... not so much.
Vanguard's player base size was only a tiny fraction of WoW's even at it's peak. That's the biggest reasons why the defections destroyed it so quickly. The same thing happened to other games, like Warhammer online and Age of Conan.
When your player base is heavily niche, the entire project increases exponentially in risk. Any mistakes have a magnified consequence on the viability of the game. Think of how many players WoW has lost since WotLK, yet how many more subscribers it STILL HAS compared to virtually every other MMORPG on the market. That's the benefit of casting a wide net, and why bigger developers are avoiding these older niches.
They aren't "scared," they're sane and fiscally responsible.
Some people are in denial about it. They might think old school is lots of classes, or lots of diversity in character development and NPC conversation, or some other arcane thing. Yet they then think it's ok to remove the things you explain above, things like frustrating challenges or time consuming activities or even player interdependencies. They redefine challenge so it omits frustration, amounting to the situation we have today where challenge isn't actually challenging. They're like people who think we can have a cake and eat it too. Like those people who think handing out trophies for merely participating is equal and BETTER than not. At the end of the day, these people will continue to deny and there's no way to make them see the truth. The best way to deal with them is not to and simply go on with your life.
It HURTS. Old school HURTS. A actual challenge means you lose a lot because you're still learning. And sometimes your attentions slips and you LOSE. It HURTS. Sometimes you die from things you can't prevent because the game doesn't protect you. How many times do I have to say HURT??? It's never enough!
I have treemendous respect for peopel who can come out and admit they want a more relaxed game. One where they can leave the game running to do things in RL and come back and everything is ok. Where they don't need to be consistently strategic or tactical or sharply aware of their surroundings. It's something that's plug and play. Easier on the nerves. At least they're honest. RESPECT.
I think playing easy games can be fun if the story is good, but quite often it's not for me. I like to test myself sometimes and see if I have the determination to get through the frustration while still remaining calm.
Just discovered this:
http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple-and-xerox-parc
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As far as Dark Souls goes, I read up on it, determined it wasn't in my play style, and never bought a single one. Now, if anyone ever delivers a new City of Heroes style game, my wallet will open.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The WoW FAD isn't over. The only successful MMORPGs on a wide scale since WoW's release have aped it, so even if people are getting tired of WoW - specifically - the formula it cultivated is still the status quo.
The FAD isn't over. It's just that it's "originator" is old and over the hill. The games that are really reaping the benefits of WoW's expanding the MMORPG market are using its formula to achieve that success.
Games like EverQuest and Lineage II can and will not achieve that kind of success in 2018. If their niche isn't too fragmented, they may be able to carve out a nice part of the market in which they can exist in viability, but it's very risky to live there (competition can destroy you in record time).
WoW was able to survive as well as it had, because it was inclusive and cast a wide net. Even if it lost half of it is peak players, that still leaves it with ~4-5M, which is still massive.
Why wouldn't they just make one of those games or even a few and see what happens.
Surely they would easily make profit off a game that only cost 2.5 million to build..
Office space office supplies everything to do with the business and especially salaries all cost much more than they did 15 years ago. This alone would make it cost more.
Now add to that the better graphics people with want.
It seems to be a risk that most devs are saying is not worth it.
When you put Stockholders before your gamers in video games you get the crap we have today. Why do you think so many people are looking forward to Indy games? Because they are putting the Gamer first not Stockholders.
Big companies don't care if a product is not in the hundred of million $ range. It is a waste of their attention. Basically they let small companies take the smaller markets.