One thing I remember being suggested on the Crowfall forums was permadeath campaigns. A brief overview for those not familiar with Crowfall, the point of Crowfall is campaigns that are supposed to last months where players fight over resources. After a campaign is finished, you can take resources back to your eternal kingdoms, player run towns that are the only permanent area of the game.
A permadeath Crowfall campaign would be a campaign where when you died you would be booted from the campaign. They would probably have to run shorter than normal campaigns but the concept could be pretty interesting.
I duuno man , i dont think it would be interesting at all , I think there would be an intial push on that rule server , assess damage .. Then a lot of people spending there time hiding , not playing the game as intended ... Turtle for the Win! would be the Mantra
One thing I remember being suggested on the Crowfall forums was permadeath campaigns. A brief overview for those not familiar with Crowfall, the point of Crowfall is campaigns that are supposed to last months where players fight over resources. After a campaign is finished, you can take resources back to your eternal kingdoms, player run towns that are the only permanent area of the game.
A permadeath Crowfall campaign would be a campaign where when you died you would be booted from the campaign. They would probably have to run shorter than normal campaigns but the concept could be pretty interesting.
We have that, it's called Fortnite. (Or insert one of the other 2020424 battle royale games already on the market).
The game design has to take perma-death into account - otherwise if you lost everything in a game like WoW and had to start from level 1 again - oh boy... worst design ever.
So for perma death to work - you have to change the game, like transferrable progression to new characters, or super easy/fast way to regain lost gear/skill/xp etc...
etc...
Perma death can totally work in games that are designed to handle it correctly.
How is it perm-death if you can transfer progression? How is super easy progression different from a death penalty?
No perma-death is either thinly disguised respawning or too harsh a penalty to make an enjoyable game.
The transfer of progression with permanent death is the default standard in real life. It is reasonable for a game with permanent character death to mimic that in whatever context makes sense for it.
Permadeath would be fine for me. If resurrection magic was available, and there is a relatively long window of time to receive such magic (think Gentle Repose ritual D&D), and your corpse would be carry-able or drag-able.
Also there would need to be the ability for Necromancy and turning your character into a zombie. (Which may or may not be breakable in the future.)
It would also be required that you receive an E-mail or some form of notification in the real world that you were returned to existance.
Battle Royal is about the only form of permadeath that works. Your done for that round but you've learned from the experience and want to try it again. So short elimination types games or probably hard core survival games.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The game design has to take perma-death into account - otherwise if you lost everything in a game like WoW and had to start from level 1 again - oh boy... worst design ever.
So for perma death to work - you have to change the game, like transferrable progression to new characters, or super easy/fast way to regain lost gear/skill/xp etc...
etc...
Perma death can totally work in games that are designed to handle it correctly.
It is really really hard to do. A MMO has to have character progression which makes it hard to work permadeath around that feature. You also have social relationships which make it hard to maintain if you lose your avatar. Then you have issues with accidental deaths and people appealing such. So yes, there are ways to work around such a feature, but is it worth dealing with all the hassles attached to such for both players and developers?
That is why I scoff at games like Chronicles of Elyria, permadeath will kill that game if it ever releases. With their small staff, dealing with that one issue will drive them crazy.
Permadeath fails me due to my aversion of repeating a simple progression path and have to do it all over again while you reach the interesting parts of the game.
Exactly how I feel about it, I love progression, but redoing what has been done before, not at all.
I rarely play through ARPGs or single player RPGs more than once and have little interest in seeing how things would play out with different options or harder settings.
Once I've completed the story, not much else interests me.
Which is why I guess I'm always drawn back to EVE, the "story' never ends....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Meaningful progression is better than empty vast vertical. Majority of MMORPG would not change much if there was 1 level and just gained the same points and abilities with exp. Oh except you can't one shot low level mobs. Such deep gameplay lost.
How the PD is related to meaningful character progression? If we exclude the RP, and we must when we are talking about the gameplay design, PD means you can lose your character - very simple. So when you suggest such a risk, what will be the reward to take it - that is meaningful progression. Point the reward, and I could agree with you. The rest is RP - your imagination.
If a game is fun, I don't care if my character is progressing (i.e. getting bigger numbers). Of course, there would be stuff like cosmetics and minor stat buffing equipment, but it really wouldn't be the focus of the game. (I envision such a game as being heavily PvP focused with territory control and such, so what you work towards in a normal game session would be guild, rather than character progression)
As for playing mutliple characters, I suspect you're saying that it can't work in an MMO because you're imagining controlling 15 full mythic, max level characters in a WoW raid. A game where you play multiple characters like that would have to be designed completely differently from pretty much any MMO currently on the market.
What is fun. If you cannot define "fun" - you do not know what you are talking about obviously. There is a progression in every game - in the chess you remove the opponent's figures from the field. Or imagine a game of football. One of the teams leads with 1:0 in the first half, then we delete the result, and both starts from 0:0 in the second. What is the point of the first half then?
In L2 one mate controlled 12 characters alone. It is called multiboxing. At one side I think that he was a great player. At the other side what he was doing was a huge issue for a MMO game, because you know - there are players. If you can make even parties solo - well this is probably the edge of the destroying of the MMOs as multiplayer games.
This whole thing is imaginary. The reward can be what you want since this is just an exercise of what you need for permanent death to work. It could be as simple as an account wide trait for slaying a dragon that could possibly permanently kill you. Has nothing to do with role play. Not even sure why you brought that up.
First of all the game would have to be done in away that makes sense. Permanent death is pretty serious,there are people in real life that survive shark attacks,bear attacks even lion attacks.The use of the term DEATH has been grossly misused. So let's do some work first to make some sense in these games,INJURED status,perhaps virus,sickness etc etc,MAIM,possibly even dismembered.
However here is the problem and it is one that is NOT solved.
MMO>>grouping
So now you have a player suffering a near death experience,perhaps loses a limb or has poor dexterity,why would any group now want that player? The other problem is 99.9% of the time people or someone is talking about ONLY pvp.Ignoring the entire rest of the game and PVE/grouping is NOT the proper way to look at building a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If i am to invest time into a game, particularly any game where you create the character and have to develop it through gameplay, then permadeath in any way shape or form is out of the question, its a deal breaker and i would not play that game, there are so many games i enjoy playing that do not have permadeath in them, that any game that had it would not make it on my 'to do' list at some point in the future even, my 'dance card' is full enough already that i just do not have the time to spend it in games i would likely not enjoy playing.
I would not accept it in any shape, form or fashion, well except I did in Darkest Dungeon but they had a roster of characters and even then it bummed me out for a few days then the first opportunity that came up I got them back from the graveyard.
Thing is I would probably treat permadeath characters the same way I treat items in a game with "breaks on failure to enchant" mechanics. I don't build ONE I build several and enchant at the same time. The only time my highest item can "break" is when my best and second best are at the same level. And in the case of a game with permadeath characters it would mean that if I was playing 1 or 2 and it died, I wouldn't be able to play the other until 3 at least came close to catching up.
Oh and don't we all LOVE "breaks on enchant" mechanics? No? Well permadeath is the same thing at a higher level.
Maybe if an MMO was like Dark Souls but once you died you'd have to stay a spirit, wouldn't be so bad if there were plenty of content made for spirits to do as well but you'd have to create and level a new character to be alive again.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'm just a hobbyist programmer but I am currrently working on a game in my off-time that will have permadeath.
This is accomplished by having a playstyle that is nearly RTS-like in that your main avatar is just a platform that you use to breed/purchase/steal human NPC's that you train up in massive numbers and then you "mind-control" those and use them for all gameplay. This way progression is not tied to the specific controlled human that you lost, but basically defined as the material possessions and kingdoms your main avatar as acquired. Because even your main avatar can suffer permanent death, its not without some risk but its unlikely your main avatar would die.
Essentially, your main avatar is a dragon. Dragons have the technical abilities to mind control humans, and dragons create empires using their human minions as both subjects and workers. Each empire may have many dragons and which dragon does what is entirely up to the players (essentially a guild). You assign tasks for the humans so that they perform work (like harvesting, manufacturing, training) while you are offline. You park your dragon in a castle were he is safe until eventually you are sieged for a prolonged period of time and your castle is finally taken. You do all warfare as one of your humans and you can just swap control at any time and the humans have AI and will do things even while you are not controlling them. Its steampunk-ish: the dragons aren't using magic, but technology to control the masses. Abilities in combat that would typically be magical spells in other games will be technological gizmos.
Anyways, its too soon to provide too much info as there isn't even a working demo. I'm writing the code and I will be purchasing artwork online. Don't expect bleeding edge graphics, just bleeding edges, right?
I disagree with this - while character progression is something I personally enjoy - a MMO can be built without it.
You have to have some kind of progression. I would prefer horizontal progression than vertical progression. But MMORPGs with horizontal progression are more difficult to make, there is the risk people won't notice the progression if it's not done properly. Progression through levels and gear is much more easy to notice.
I disagree with this - while character progression is something I personally enjoy - a MMO can be built without it.
You have to have some kind of progression. I would prefer horizontal progression than vertical progression. But MMORPGs with horizontal progression are more difficult to make, there is the risk people won't notice the progression if it's not done properly. Progression through levels and gear is much more easy to notice.
Basically he said that players are too dumb to notice anything but a system that rewards you with shinnies after hours of monotonous grinding. Sadly, I agree. Its the same thing that has happened to the entire internet. It was all fun until the masses got a hold of it and everything was dumbed down for maximum profits and minimum intellectual engagement.
1/ id have player character grow old 1 year a week 2/ after the age of 40 they would gain perma death
they would get both a reduction of hitpoints by 1% per week and a chance of perma death by 1% per week
so a 80 year old would have 40% on any death to die and a reduction of hitpoints by 40%
3/all players gain children who gain all belongings
Id think the recycling of the player base would be pretty cool and when you meet a really old warrior who could die from a fall down the stairs
That would give far too large of an advantage to people who can play many more hours per week, as putting in the same amount of gaming time across a much longer span of real-life time would be far inferior as your character is older and dies. It would also just about ban playing alts at all.
I always liked the idea of a generational game. Your character's death is permanent, but you continue playing as a member of your family. Some stats are inheiret back over, but it's not 100%
I always liked the idea of a generational game. Your character's death is permanent, but you continue playing as a member of your family. Some stats are inheiret back over, but it's not 100%
Hyperdimension Neptunia has something like this in their games.
Gameplay has to be constantly fun, so starting over isn't a chore. To be honest, I don't see any mmos that produce such a steady fun factor; it is not that they are not fun, it just comes in peaks. Arpgs on the other hand seem to be more suited for permadeath because it is easier to create gameplay that maintains fun without too many breaks. A mmo leaning towars arpg design may work with permadeath.
I have long wished for a semi-hardcore mode in ARPGS (especially PoE), where you don't die permanently but there is a hefty price to pay. A few examples could be loosing random piece(s) of gear, loosing level(s), permanent stat loss, make up your own stuff - The point is that death has serious consequence, which means that the fear of death (which makes hardcore so interesting) is there but you don't go into total despair when your 400 hour toon dies. Take that idea and put it into a mmo-arpg-ish game, and I think that would work - But a pure permadeath mmo.. that would be extremely hard to make right, with a million small details that could break the entire concept.
My issue with permanent deathis pretty simple. I don't like the thought of losing a character I spent hundreds of hours on. I also like long-term games that I can spend hundreds of hours on a character. I guess it would be okay if I can pass on all the skills and items to a descendant but what's the difference between that and a simple cosmetic face change.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Meaningful progression is better than empty vast vertical. Majority of MMORPG would not change much if there was 1 level and just gained the same points and abilities with exp. Oh except you can't one shot low level mobs. Such deep gameplay lost.
How the PD is related to meaningful character progression? If we exclude the RP, and we must when we are talking about the gameplay design, PD means you can lose your character - very simple. So when you suggest such a risk, what will be the reward to take it - that is meaningful progression. Point the reward, and I could agree with you. The rest is RP - your imagination.
If a game is fun, I don't care if my character is progressing (i.e. getting bigger numbers). Of course, there would be stuff like cosmetics and minor stat buffing equipment, but it really wouldn't be the focus of the game. (I envision such a game as being heavily PvP focused with territory control and such, so what you work towards in a normal game session would be guild, rather than character progression)
As for playing mutliple characters, I suspect you're saying that it can't work in an MMO because you're imagining controlling 15 full mythic, max level characters in a WoW raid. A game where you play multiple characters like that would have to be designed completely differently from pretty much any MMO currently on the market.
What is fun. If you cannot define "fun" - you do not know what you are talking about obviously. There is a progression in every game - in the chess you remove the opponent's figures from the field. Or imagine a game of football. One of the teams leads with 1:0 in the first half, then we delete the result, and both starts from 0:0 in the second. What is the point of the first half then?
In L2 one mate controlled 12 characters alone. It is called multiboxing. At one side I think that he was a great player. At the other side what he was doing was a huge issue for a MMO game, because you know - there are players. If you can make even parties solo - well this is probably the edge of the destroying of the MMOs as multiplayer games.
Firstly, fun is subjective and indefinable. Secondly, it should have been clear by my previous response that I was defining progression as levelling, getting progressively more powerful gear, unlocking new abilities, etc. A better metaphor for what I don't want would be if a football team got to have one extra player on the field for every win, but had their player cap reset after a loss.
It also should have been clear by my response that I am not talking about multiboxing. If it's the norm to control a dozen characters at once, then such a game would have raids designed for hundreds or even thousands.
Comments
Also there would need to be the ability for Necromancy and turning your character into a zombie. (Which may or may not be breakable in the future.)
It would also be required that you receive an E-mail or some form of notification in the real world that you were returned to existance.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
That is why I scoff at games like Chronicles of Elyria, permadeath will kill that game if it ever releases. With their small staff, dealing with that one issue will drive them crazy.
I rarely play through ARPGs or single player RPGs more than once and have little interest in seeing how things would play out with different options or harder settings.
Once I've completed the story, not much else interests me.
Which is why I guess I'm always drawn back to EVE, the "story' never ends....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This whole thing is imaginary. The reward can be what you want since this is just an exercise of what you need for permanent death to work. It could be as simple as an account wide trait for slaying a dragon that could possibly permanently kill you. Has nothing to do with role play. Not even sure why you brought that up.
Permanent death is pretty serious,there are people in real life that survive shark attacks,bear attacks even lion attacks.The use of the term DEATH has been grossly misused.
So let's do some work first to make some sense in these games,INJURED status,perhaps virus,sickness etc etc,MAIM,possibly even dismembered.
However here is the problem and it is one that is NOT solved.
MMO>>grouping
So now you have a player suffering a near death experience,perhaps loses a limb or has poor dexterity,why would any group now want that player?
The other problem is 99.9% of the time people or someone is talking about ONLY pvp.Ignoring the entire rest of the game and PVE/grouping is NOT the proper way to look at building a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Oh and don't we all LOVE "breaks on enchant" mechanics? No? Well permadeath is the same thing at a higher level.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
This is accomplished by having a playstyle that is nearly RTS-like in that your main avatar is just a platform that you use to breed/purchase/steal human NPC's that you train up in massive numbers and then you "mind-control" those and use them for all gameplay. This way progression is not tied to the specific controlled human that you lost, but basically defined as the material possessions and kingdoms your main avatar as acquired. Because even your main avatar can suffer permanent death, its not without some risk but its unlikely your main avatar would die.
Essentially, your main avatar is a dragon. Dragons have the technical abilities to mind control humans, and dragons create empires using their human minions as both subjects and workers. Each empire may have many dragons and which dragon does what is entirely up to the players (essentially a guild). You assign tasks for the humans so that they perform work (like harvesting, manufacturing, training) while you are offline. You park your dragon in a castle were he is safe until eventually you are sieged for a prolonged period of time and your castle is finally taken.
You do all warfare as one of your humans and you can just swap control at any time and the humans have AI and will do things even while you are not controlling them.
Its steampunk-ish: the dragons aren't using magic, but technology to control the masses.
Abilities in combat that would typically be magical spells in other games will be technological gizmos.
Anyways, its too soon to provide too much info as there isn't even a working demo.
I'm writing the code and I will be purchasing artwork online. Don't expect bleeding edge graphics, just bleeding edges, right?
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I would prefer horizontal progression than vertical progression.
But MMORPGs with horizontal progression are more difficult to make, there is the risk people won't notice the progression if it's not done properly.
Progression through levels and gear is much more easy to notice.
Sadly, I agree.
Its the same thing that has happened to the entire internet.
It was all fun until the masses got a hold of it and everything was dumbed down for maximum profits and minimum intellectual engagement.
2/ after the age of 40 they would gain perma death
they would get both a reduction of hitpoints by 1% per week
and a chance of perma death by 1% per week
so a 80 year old would have 40% on any death to die and a reduction of hitpoints by 40%
3/all players gain children who gain all belongings
Id think the recycling of the player base would be pretty cool and when you meet a really old warrior who could die from a fall down the stairs
Arpgs on the other hand seem to be more suited for permadeath because it is easier to create gameplay that maintains fun without too many breaks.
A mmo leaning towars arpg design may work with permadeath.
I have long wished for a semi-hardcore mode in ARPGS (especially PoE), where you don't die permanently but there is a hefty price to pay. A few examples could be loosing random piece(s) of gear, loosing level(s), permanent stat loss, make up your own stuff - The point is that death has serious consequence, which means that the fear of death (which makes hardcore so interesting) is there but you don't go into total despair when your 400 hour toon dies.
Take that idea and put it into a mmo-arpg-ish game, and I think that would work - But a pure permadeath mmo.. that would be extremely hard to make right, with a million small details that could break the entire concept.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
It also should have been clear by my response that I am not talking about multiboxing. If it's the norm to control a dozen characters at once, then such a game would have raids designed for hundreds or even thousands.