The question here is pretty clear - how could you accept permanent death in a MMORPG? Never accept is an obviously wrong answer.
I'd accept it if the game didn't play anything like an MMORPG, in which case the whole argument would be pointless. MMOs are repetitive grinds by nature. Dying and restarting the process a few days / weeks in isn't on the table because it's not fun. I haven't played a single MMO with classes as complex and fun as in a roguelike where it's not really a big deal since your experience will always be something new and fun, unless you insist on rolling the same race+class combo, in which case, shame on you. Even gameplay between other classes is quite often only marginally different in MMOs and you're mostly picking what kind of flavor you want for your character.
Alts already exist anyway as a clean slate character, depending on how much the game allows you to twink.
So, yes. Unless the game is so vastly different from other MMORPGs that it's not even an MMORPG anymore, I can't see it ever working in a way that could be considered to be fun, or most importantly, meaningful.
The game design has to take perma-death into account - otherwise if you lost everything in a game like WoW and had to start from level 1 again - oh boy... worst design ever.
So for perma death to work - you have to change the game, like transferrable progression to new characters, or super easy/fast way to regain lost gear/skill/xp etc...
etc...
Perma death can totally work in games that are designed to handle it correctly.
Not disagreeing with you here. It just strikes me that the ways to make it work are things that would probably render it moot to a lot of players. Basically, perma-death would work if there were little to no consequence for permanently dying.
I suspect many (not all) of the people who argue for Perma-Death imagine themselves as the ones doing the killing, not being killed themselves. Unless it's purely PvE... which would be weird given the hardcore nature of it. I don't think purely PvE players would take to it so much, given how much progression and discernable growth is part of the PvE experience.
It almost seems like xp and level loss in a game with slow progression (a la classic Lineage 2) has more bite than a game with perma-death where dying, even "permanently", really doesn't matter all that much.
Maybe a perma-death system where you can only die so many times before your character's "family tree" has been wiped out, and you have to start from scratch. Could make a killing in a cash shop, selling "additional branches for your family tree"... not that I condone cash shops xD.
Seems there would have to be some actual risk that people could 'feel', to make it worthwhile.
If it has no meaning because you lose little like your skills or progression and come back as your descendent or clone or something what would be the point of having permanent death except as a tagline on the game box
All MMORPG populations are small at this point compared to the titles currently dominating online gaming. And their populations continue on in their steady decline. Whatever will can save MMOs the one thing we know for sure is it isn't any of the models currently available. We need major alteration and innovation. About every possible take on the WoW model has been attempted and they have all failed to replicate it's success.
I think the future of this genre lies in games far closer to EVE than WoW. But even for those titles true innovation is required, not just another clone.
Personally I think the solution is to go back and have a new look on the original source material: Pen and paper rpgs.There are a lot of interesting things there that could be implemented.
We also need a new eay to experience the content in PvE games, jumping from one fast and easy quest to the next over and over have been done too many times by now.
Just adding a feature like permadeath to an excistiing system certainly wont help in any case, we need an overhaul of the entire gameplay.
[edit] PS: It seems like players want to sound all "hardcore", but really aren't. Most say yes to perma-death yet almost always have a condition (skills/money/items carry over). Then they can say, "I want perma-death!", when in reality they just want a harsher death penalty.
Isn't any form of Perma-death just asking for harsher death penalties?
How many "forms" are there?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
Absolutely!
Look at all the Top MMO's.. players play those games for years on end, hundreds if not thousands of hours played even by casual gamers. I mean really.. someone that dumps say 2 hours a day into a game.. only like maybe 5 days in a full week.. so like,10 hours a week is still 500+ hours at the end of the year.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
Most people don't have the fortitude to do that plus it must be inflicted on others too otherwise where is the fun in you deleting your character. No accolades because no one can verify what you did whereas as boasting/bragging rights you can only be high level in such a game having succeeded in not dying. It has nothing to do with the concept all about bragging rights otherwise your suggestion would work.
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
Like hardcore you should be able to choose so have a permadeath option solved.
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
but thena gain you can't force someone to play a game they don't want and perma death games not only a niche(at the best) but no company would risk making one, so all this is useless
and you can't ask for take a look on pen and paper games, because even so all RPG games are based on, a single player game have a lot of limitation, and on online games that limitations are even bigger, plus GMs on pen and paper make encounters for your party survive and keep going, and there is always a way to restore to life chars too, so even on pen and paper perma death is optional
If your character recovers ANY kind of advantages from his "ancestor", from his previous life, then sorry, but it's not permanent death anymore but just another take on the usual MMORPG death.
Permanent death is, for instance, Minecraft in "Hardcore" mode. No second chance. No recovery. You're dead, well, you start all over again.
Everything else is just a bullshit excuse for a system that is actually just the same than what actually exists.
Not really. You can always have children who inherit key items and get traits based on their parent. Not to mention accelerated growth at what their parents did.
I can eventually agree on the heritage items, but not on the accelerated growth. It's not because your father was Mozart that you are automatically "genius gifted" in music. Sorry, but that still sounds like an excuse for the usual death/respawn system.
I can assure you that children being good at what their parents do by genetics and exposure happens more often then shooting fireballs out of your hands.
I can't help but wonder. Would the argument be different if another player got to play your 'offspring' and not you? The whole 'heritage' and 'inheritance' concepts are essentially a mechanism that encourages alts. Any system that endows alts with skills or traits outside of their own experience is an attempt to circumvent the 'rules' of how skills are earned/learned in game, making it an extension of the usual death/respawn system, as @Jean-Luc_Picard said. That's not perma-death, in my world.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It seems like most players are opposed to permanent death. I have a feeling most players think of a WoW character they spent hundreds of hours on just gone or dying and starting over repeatedly. To me yes that would suck.
That said, there circumstances I could accept perm death.
1. Only risky gameplay causing perm death like fighting the world eater dragon. Not every defeat is perm.
2. All items would have to decay to destruction point and be much easier to get than typical MMORPG.
3. You can choose a successor or child that gets your items, unique traits depending on how character was played and higher skill cap.
I think that kind of gameplay could make for me.
Not at all. The primary reason I switched from solo games to MMORPG was the permanance. I was tired of beating a game and having it end so the idea of the game and my character existing permanently and there always being something for me to do was fun. That's what keeps me interested. I don't want to put in all this work only to have it end and have it restart all the time. I can go back to solo RPG's if I wanted to do that. MMORPG's exist for a different reason.
I don't find it a rediculous argument at all. People set challenges for themselves in games all the time. This is no different.
Well, that's a different thing.
If people want to set their own challenges that's fine. But when people talk about playing a game they are talking about that game's set of challenges.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
but thena gain you can't force someone to play a game they don't want and perma death games not only a niche(at the best) but no company would risk making one, so all this is useless
and you can't ask for take a look on pen and paper games, because even so all RPG games are based on, a single player game have a lot of limitation, and on online games that limitations are even bigger, plus GMs on pen and paper make encounters for your party survive and keep going, and there is always a way to restore to life chars too, so even on pen and paper perma death is optional
The issue comes back to how some players (and wow, they can't let this go) think of perma-death.
They seem to tie the idea of perma-death to "I'm not going to give up a character I've spent years working on blah blah blah".
Darkest Dungeon is a perma death game. X-Come is a perma death game.
And both those games did well with good-great reviews.
I don't understand why some players are so scared that there is a discussion over "perma-death". It's really like they think they are going to be forced to play it.
And as far as "perma-death" being options for pen and paper. It's only optional if the group playing and the game master consider it optional. I wouldn't be surprised if there were groups who enforced perma-death as part of their experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
All MMORPG populations are small at this point compared to the titles currently dominating online gaming. And their populations continue on in their steady decline. Whatever will can save MMOs the one thing we know for sure is it isn't any of the models currently available. We need major alteration and innovation. About every possible take on the WoW model has been attempted and they have all failed to replicate it's success.
I think the future of this genre lies in games far closer to EVE than WoW. But even for those titles true innovation is required, not just another clone.
Personally I think the solution is to go back and have a new look on the original source material: Pen and paper rpgs.There are a lot of interesting things there that could be implemented.
We also need a new eay to experience the content in PvE games, jumping from one fast and easy quest to the next over and over have been done too many times by now.
Just adding a feature like permadeath to an excistiing system certainly wont help in any case, we need an overhaul of the entire gameplay.
Oh no. I don't think any one feature is the solution and if one feature is the solution it certainly isn't permadeath.
I think "It failed in the ways its been implemented before" is a poor excuse for excluding features that haven't been been given much attention though. Like you said we need to go back and look at the source material.
Death is not insignificant in the source material unless you are an extremely high level party with gold to just burn on true resurrection after true resurrection.
Perma-death is a cute idea, but, what's the motive to play it?
Ask @Cryomatrix, hes permanently died 4 times this month alone in POE...yet he keeps going back.
Apparently some people are wired to enjoy this sort of thing.
Not me mind you, I'd probably end up punching my laptop screen, but some people ....
Make that 5 times
DIed last night, was completely bad luck. I'm bloody F'n cursed this league. Cursed I tell you. Wasn't even my fault either that I died. But yes, i'm so F'n annoyed that i'm going to level up to maps no matter what happens.
I truthfully don't understand why I'm so addicted to Path of Exile. I don't get it.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The thing about Permadeath in Path of Exile is that I cannot play the game if there is no risk of permanent death. It's like playing poker with no money at stake. You just can't do it. It drives up the stakes enough to make it fun.
My goal is to make build of the week one of these times. I will do it, if my fucking character can survive. I've never sucked this bad. Then again I'm rushing through instead of taking my time like I usually do.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I don't find it a rediculous argument at all. People set challenges for themselves in games all the time. This is no different.
Well, that's a different thing.
If people want to set their own challenges that's fine. But when people talk about playing a game they are talking about that game's set of challenges.
People play a game and set their own challenges all the time.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
Actually, I did that in several games. That's the so called "Iron Man Challenge". It basically consists in getting to the max level in a game without dying once, and usually also with only relying on your own resources, which means no external help in form of gear or other items, no auction house, no help from your other characters either. If you die, you delete the character and start from scratch.
I think it's great that people set their own challenges.
But if a person is looking to compete/work together in a certain environment they are going to want to find a game that allows that.
It's why people seek out ffa pvp among other things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
Absolutely!
Look at all the Top MMO's.. players play those games for years on end, hundreds if not thousands of hours played even by casual gamers. I mean really.. someone that dumps say 2 hours a day into a game.. only like maybe 5 days in a full week.. so like,10 hours a week is still 500+ hours at the end of the year.
Now sources with links please or it only your imagination.
Feel free to google it yourself.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
Actually, I did that in several games. That's the so called "Iron Man Challenge". It basically consists in getting to the max level in a game without dying once, and usually also with only relying on your own resources, which means no external help in form of gear or other items, no auction house, no help from your other characters either. If you die, you delete the character and start from scratch.
Let me Guess, Dungeons and Dragons Online.
That gets a bit trickier now they added in Epic Levels.
At the same time.. no one would risk a 3+ life toon to perma-death.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
I suspect many (not all) of the people who argue for Perma-Death imagine themselves as the ones doing the killing, not being killed themselves. Unless it's purely PvE... which would be weird given the hardcore nature of it. I don't think purely PvE players would take to it so much, given how much progression and discernable growth is part of the PvE experience.
It almost seems like xp and level loss in a game with slow progression (a la classic Lineage 2) has more bite than a game with perma-death where dying, even "permanently", really doesn't matter all that much.
Maybe a perma-death system where you can only die so many times before your character's "family tree" has been wiped out, and you have to start from scratch. Could make a killing in a cash shop, selling "additional branches for your family tree"... not that I condone cash shops xD.
Seems there would have to be some actual risk that people could 'feel', to make it worthwhile.
We also need a new eay to experience the content in PvE games, jumping from one fast and easy quest to the next over and over have been done too many times by now.
Just adding a feature like permadeath to an excistiing system certainly wont help in any case, we need an overhaul of the entire gameplay.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Look at all the Top MMO's.. players play those games for years on end, hundreds if not thousands of hours played even by casual gamers. I mean really.. someone that dumps say 2 hours a day into a game.. only like maybe 5 days in a full week.. so like,10 hours a week is still 500+ hours at the end of the year.
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account.
Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
and you can't ask for take a look on pen and paper games, because even so all RPG games are based on, a single player game have a lot of limitation, and on online games that limitations are even bigger, plus GMs on pen and paper make encounters for your party survive and keep going, and there is always a way to restore to life chars too, so even on pen and paper perma death is optional
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think "It failed in the ways its been implemented before" is a poor excuse for excluding features that haven't been been given much attention though. Like you said we need to go back and look at the source material.
Death is not insignificant in the source material unless you are an extremely high level party with gold to just burn on true resurrection after true resurrection.
Make that 5 times
DIed last night, was completely bad luck. I'm bloody F'n cursed this league. Cursed I tell you. Wasn't even my fault either that I died. But yes, i'm so F'n annoyed that i'm going to level up to maps no matter what happens.
I truthfully don't understand why I'm so addicted to Path of Exile. I don't get it.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
My goal is to make build of the week one of these times. I will do it, if my fucking character can survive. I've never sucked this bad. Then again I'm rushing through instead of taking my time like I usually do.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That gets a bit trickier now they added in Epic Levels.
At the same time.. no one would risk a 3+ life toon to perma-death.