you could never accept perma-death in a game. You think you would, but you wouldn't. It's bad enough as it is in real life, we don't want to replicate that in games as well...
Why do people bring up deleting characters in games not designed around perm death. WoW like games are not good candidates for perm death. If that's what you are thinking with perm death you are doing it wrong.
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
Don't know about the average player but what I want is an MMORPG that I can happily pump hundreds of hours a year into. And I want to be playing with hundreds of mature players doing the same thing.
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
Don't know about the average player but what I want is an MMORPG that I can happily pump hundreds of hours a year into. And I want to be playing with hundreds of mature players doing the same thing.
Being clearly "beyond "average" I've got 200 to 300 hours on several games in the past year including Fallout 3, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity and now have returned to Fallout 4 (300 plus) and EVE.
I don't play many games, but I do I spend quite a bit of time on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perm-Death works well when it's more of one RP-thing and not about loss itself, as a way to create a new character follow-up to what you have already done in a way.
[edit] PS: It seems like players want to sound all "hardcore", but really aren't. Most say yes to perma-death yet almost always have a condition (skills/money/items carry over). Then they can say, "I want perma-death!", when in reality they just want a harsher death penalty.
Isn't any form of Perma-death just asking for harsher death penalties?
How many "forms" are there?
There are a few forms.
Depends on the game however.
You have a game like Fortnight, where you get 1 life to try any arena, and your entire character is lost upon death or victory.
You have Perma-Death in the form that you have many characters on an account, and if you die, only that single character dies, and all account based loot, gear, and the like is still there, not to mention your characters may have access to account based banks making re-starting easier.
Then you have games like Day-Z, where you get 1 character, per account, and if you die, you have to start from the very beginning again.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
Don't know about the average player but what I want is an MMORPG that I can happily pump hundreds of hours a year into. And I want to be playing with hundreds of mature players doing the same thing.
Being clearly "beyond "average" I've got 200 to 300 hours on several games in the past year including Fallout 3, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity and now have returned to Fallout 4 (300 plus) and EVE.
I don't play many games, but I do I spend quite a bit of time on.
Just to give an idea of the difference between an MMO and other games, Roughly 35% of WoW players play on average 20 - 30 hours a week.
That would be a thousand hours at the end of year, MMO's are built to be long standing games, as such, mechanics that make it so all that work can be taken from another, are not appealing to the players that are looking to play those kinds of games.
If you notice a trend among all the people that want Perma-Death, all their suggestions are built around shallow games with almost no progression, so the Perma-Death does not in fact hurt them, as they can re-start with minimal loss.. exactly as a MOBA would be.
As such, there is simply not a significant market for those players among deep games with long progression cycles like MMO are built to have.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Oh no. I don't think any one feature is the solution and if one feature is the solution it certainly isn't permadeath.
I think "It failed in the ways its been implemented before" is a poor excuse for excluding features that haven't been been given much attention though. Like you said we need to go back and look at the source material.
Death is not insignificant in the source material unless you are an extremely high level party with gold to just burn on true resurrection after true resurrection.
Even with lesser spells like "reincarnation" you don't have to start all over again, and while regular rezz loses you a con I dwouldn't call D&D and Pathfinder perma death games.
And I have a feeling that if a MMO would have something like it mechanics wise we would have to pay in the cashshop to get rezzed.
It is certainly true that "it have failed in the past" doesn't mean a feature can't work, but it tends to mean that the games trying it in the past didn't get the feature right. And all features that punish the players for failing (which death penalties and perma death are) needs a lot of consideration if you trying to make a popular game.
The real problem with implementing features from pen and paper roleplaying is that you get so much more done in a MMORPG. We rarely have more then 3 different fights during 8 hours P&P playing (annd sometimes we have none at all) while in a MMO you coulld have hundreds of fights in the same time. Also, at best I play once a week there while many people play MMOs several days a week if not all days.
MMOs have more combat and are more focused on it which means you chances of dying during an 8 hour session is far greater. And you don't have a DM that fudges a roll for you if he is wussy and think you don't deserve to die because of a bad roll (I believe in letting the die fall as it rolls though).
Modern players whines about death penalties even if they are small so getting them to play a perma death game means you need an incredible game that is so much better then anything else.
I think the simplest solution is to run 3 different server sets, 1 without the death penalty at all, one with a death penalty where you loose a level or so when you die and one perma death set. You would need some balancing for that as well, so that the perma death server have far better looting while the no penalty have far worse loot.
I think that is the only way if you want a popular standard MMO with full death penaly. And that system do work, at least to some degree. EQs did that with it's Discord server.
I've always been tempted to play a game with permadeath.
But I came to a realization many years ago: I'm old. By that, I mean I have a job, bills, kids, a wife. I can't afford to play a game for hours and then lose it all because the dog jumps in my lap at the wrong time or one of my girls gets hurt.
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
I agree, which is why I "hated saying it". But if people want "the challenge", there you have it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
I agree, which is why I "hated saying it". But if people want "the challenge", there you have it.
I don't know. I can envision a different MMORPG than most. To me it is not just about challenge. It's more about legacy and completing rare feats being meaningful. I dislike the current everyone has everything if they grind and the bigger grind around it. I will take risk vs. reward instead of the long grind game most MMOs have.
Perm death wouldnt just be some hardcore mode for me. I am not picturing WoW clone MMORPG.
I've always been tempted to play a game with permadeath.
But I came to a realization many years ago: I'm old. By that, I mean I have a job, bills, kids, a wife. I can't afford to play a game for hours and then lose it all because the dog jumps in my lap at the wrong time or one of my girls gets hurt.
Permadeath is a young man's game!
1, I strongly suspect you're not "old". Unless you are in your 70's+ then have at it!
2, Permadeath for a game has to make sense. It either has to be like Darkest Dungeon or or X-Com or any similar game or it has to be something where you get x amount of lives and part of the progression can be forwarded to another character. I could even see the building of a dynasty or some other larger game.
Permadeath as a game mechanic really isn't about the character. Or the "purples".
Otherwise "sure" it's just someone's personal challenge where they see how far they can get without dying.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
but thena gain you can't force someone to play a game they don't want and perma death games not only a niche(at the best) but no company would risk making one, so all this is useless
and you can't ask for take a look on pen and paper games, because even so all RPG games are based on, a single player game have a lot of limitation, and on online games that limitations are even bigger, plus GMs on pen and paper make encounters for your party survive and keep going, and there is always a way to restore to life chars too, so even on pen and paper perma death is optional
The issue comes back to how some players (and wow, they can't let this go) think of perma-death.
They seem to tie the idea of perma-death to "I'm not going to give up a character I've spent years working on blah blah blah".
Darkest Dungeon is a perma death game. X-Come is a perma death game.
And both those games did well with good-great reviews.
I don't understand why some players are so scared that there is a discussion over "perma-death". It's really like they think they are going to be forced to play it.
And as far as "perma-death" being options for pen and paper. It's only optional if the group playing and the game master consider it optional. I wouldn't be surprised if there were groups who enforced perma-death as part of their experience.
I certainly have this "failing." I create a character in an MMO because I want to play with them. Along the way, I get even more attached, to my own "detriment" according to some.
I'm not sure about the original XCom game, but Firaxis' stab at it "Iron Man" is an option, not a requirement. I have no clue about Darkest Dungeon. I would be surprised if over half the XCom players have played "iron man." I have tried it and lost soldiers to stupid "AlBQuirky Mechanical Mistakes" (misclicking and such). I reload without guilt. I don't even try anymore, instead just "save scumming" away. If a soldier dies because of my lack of strategy, they are dead.
I agree with the pen and paper point. In D&D I've played with many different DM types. One had us roll 3 characters to start and if any made it to 3rd level, they'd get a name. I hated that and played only a handful of times. Most of my other DMs, whom I enjoyed playing with much more, used perma-death as a story shattering event, which is how I view it.
Let's face it, games are to played and have fun, whiling away the hours. If permanent death is not fun for some, it's not fun. Trying to "make it fun" is missing the point and cheapens what perma death is all about. I am for harsher death penalties, but permanent death is my own personal "step too far."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Games like EvE, much like MMO's that use PvP as an end game, end up competing against MOBA's.. which.. sadly.. the MOBA's crush them, hence why they don't break out.
Reality is.. innovation is needed, but modern gamer are not going to pump a 100's of hours or years of their life into a character that can die.. and they lose all their progress.
Does the average player today spend 100's of hours in any game these days?
Don't know about the average player but what I want is an MMORPG that I can happily pump hundreds of hours a year into. And I want to be playing with hundreds of mature players doing the same thing.
I thought the trend these days (according to publishers) is to beat as many games as possible in as little time as possible. At least, that is what this Games As A Service crap is all about. Does it make sense to pay $10/month to play 1 single game for 6 months? May as well buy it at that point
PS: I'm not an average player and am in total agreement with you
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I hate saying this, for this is the worst argument ever, but every MMO already has perma death. It is just player initiated, not forced. You die, delete your character. Nothing is stopping you, except a level playing field.
This is not PD. It is like ban. You do not delete your character, but your account. Do you make any difference?
Yes. Do you?
[sigh...] Here we go again...
Ban = Account. Delete = Character.
My accounts usually have multiple characters. Example: My WoW has 5-6 characters on 4 servers. I can "DELETE" any character I wish, without losing my account status.
A BAN, on the other hand, is an action taken by the COMPANY on an account. You can't log in. You can't play.
So, if a player wants perma-death, they can by DELETING their character upon death. NOTHING to do with "ban." Where you got that word, I have no clue. Google translator, maybe?
That's so ridiculous I can't even begin ...
People play games for a shared experience! Same rules is part of that experience.
but thena gain you can't force someone to play a game they don't want and perma death games not only a niche(at the best) but no company would risk making one, so all this is useless
and you can't ask for take a look on pen and paper games, because even so all RPG games are based on, a single player game have a lot of limitation, and on online games that limitations are even bigger, plus GMs on pen and paper make encounters for your party survive and keep going, and there is always a way to restore to life chars too, so even on pen and paper perma death is optional
The issue comes back to how some players (and wow, they can't let this go) think of perma-death.
They seem to tie the idea of perma-death to "I'm not going to give up a character I've spent years working on blah blah blah".
Darkest Dungeon is a perma death game. X-Come is a perma death game.
And both those games did well with good-great reviews.
I don't understand why some players are so scared that there is a discussion over "perma-death". It's really like they think they are going to be forced to play it.
And as far as "perma-death" being options for pen and paper. It's only optional if the group playing and the game master consider it optional. I wouldn't be surprised if there were groups who enforced perma-death as part of their experience.
I certainly have this "failing." I create a character in an MMO because I want to play with them. Along the way, I get even more attached, to my own "detriment" according to some.
I'm not sure about the original XCom game, but Firaxis' stab at it "Iron Man" is an option, not a requirement. I have no clue about Darkest Dungeon. I would be surprised if over half the XCom players have played "iron man." I have tried it and lost soldiers to stupid "AlBQuirky Mechanical Mistakes" (misclicking and such). I reload without guilt. I don't even try anymore, instead just "save scumming" away. If a soldier dies because of my lack of strategy, they are dead.
I agree with the pen and paper point. In D&D I've played with many different DM types. One had us roll 3 characters to start and if any made it to 3rd level, they'd get a name. I hated that and played only a handful of times. Most of my other DMs, whom I enjoyed playing with much more, used perma-death as a story shattering event, which is how I view it.
Let's face it, games are to played and have fun, whiling away the hours. If permanent death is not fun for some, it's not fun. Trying to "make it fun" is missing the point and cheapens what perma death is all about. I am for harsher death penalties, but permanent death is my own personal "step too far."
But I don't think anyone is saying that you have to "like" permadeath so much as "what would it take.
For some "nothing" and end of discussion. No discussion there. For others, x, y and z.
It's the people who are up in arms about the idea of there even a perma death discussion that I find most disturbing.
I almost feel like using the old "show me on the doll where perma-death touched you" bit.
But getting back to your point about a story shattering event "that's it". That's the idea.
It's like my buddy who plays elder scrolls games. He went to dragon reach and saw an npc there that he sort of liked. The npc was killed. Probably by vampires or something. I remember him saying "oh no 'insert x name!'"
I said, "well you can reload to an earlier save when he was alive"
His response was "no, that's what happened in the game so he remains dead".
I name my darkest Dungeon characters and when they die "they die" because "that's what happened.
Story shattering event.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
An honest question to permadeath supporters: how could a player derive pleasure from a game supposed to be built on the notion of long-term character advancement, if you implemented a feature that would totally negate the core design of the game? Perma-death could work in games built on short-term, skill-based principles where there is no long-term investment by the player. But how could it ever work in a MMORPG?
But I don't think anyone is saying that you have to "like" permadeath so much as "what would it take.
For some "nothing" and end of discussion. No discussion there. For others, x, y and z.
It's the people who are up in arms about the idea of there even a perma death discussion that I find most disturbing.
I almost feel like using the old "show me on the doll where perma-death touched you" bit.
But getting back to your point about a story shattering event "that's it". That's the idea.
It's like my buddy who plays elder scrolls games. He went to dragon reach and saw an npc there that he sort of liked. The npc was killed. Probably by vampires or something. I remember him saying "oh no 'insert x name!'"
I said, "well you can reload to an earlier save when he was alive"
His response was "no, that's what happened in the game so he remains dead".
I name my darkest Dungeon characters and when they die "they die" because "that's what happened.
Story shattering event.
I think there should be permanent death MMOs for players who want that. I'm never for NOT making specific games. It's just when those specific games become the latest fad and nothing else is produced that I get pissy
Your first sentence is what I'm getting at, though. If you're not trying to get players to like it, why must there be a point where they will? It sounds just like "How can we get you to like this feature?" to me.
I'll end with this: <points to chest, at about the heart> Perma Death hurt me here... <said in a very sad, scared, and trembling voice>
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I would never be interested in permanent death in a game. The very idea of it does not evoke feelings of fun or entertainment value. What it would make me feel is stressed, frustrated and most likely result in a permanent rage quit.
But I don't think anyone is saying that you have to "like" permadeath so much as "what would it take.
For some "nothing" and end of discussion. No discussion there. For others, x, y and z.
It's the people who are up in arms about the idea of there even a perma death discussion that I find most disturbing.
I almost feel like using the old "show me on the doll where perma-death touched you" bit.
But getting back to your point about a story shattering event "that's it". That's the idea.
It's like my buddy who plays elder scrolls games. He went to dragon reach and saw an npc there that he sort of liked. The npc was killed. Probably by vampires or something. I remember him saying "oh no 'insert x name!'"
I said, "well you can reload to an earlier save when he was alive"
His response was "no, that's what happened in the game so he remains dead".
I name my darkest Dungeon characters and when they die "they die" because "that's what happened.
Story shattering event.
I think there should be permanent death MMOs for players who want that. I'm never for NOT making specific games. It's just when those specific games become the latest fad and nothing else is produced that I get pissy
Your first sentence is what I'm getting at, though. If you're not trying to get players to like it, why must there be a point where they will? It sounds just like "How can we get you to like this feature?" to me.
I'll end with this: <points to chest, at about the heart> Perma Death hurt me here... <said in a very sad, scared, and trembling voice>
Well, it's not my thread. He/She is asking because "curious?"
I like the idea because it sets stakes.
Again, with Darkest Dungeon, especially with a mission where you are either successful or you fail.
It's sort of like Dark Souls. People play it because of the unforgiving nature of the combat (yes, there is no permadeath in that game).
It sets a groundwork where people can talk about their shared experiences. The developers could have made an easy mode or a hard mode or a story mode but they wanted their players to have a certain experience.
That's why players talk about ffa pvp or permadeath or any number of things. Mention x boss or y encounter and people can relate.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
But I don't think anyone is saying that you have to "like" permadeath so much as "what would it take.
For some "nothing" and end of discussion. No discussion there. For others, x, y and z.
It's the people who are up in arms about the idea of there even a perma death discussion that I find most disturbing.
I almost feel like using the old "show me on the doll where perma-death touched you" bit.
But getting back to your point about a story shattering event "that's it". That's the idea.
It's like my buddy who plays elder scrolls games. He went to dragon reach and saw an npc there that he sort of liked. The npc was killed. Probably by vampires or something. I remember him saying "oh no 'insert x name!'"
I said, "well you can reload to an earlier save when he was alive"
His response was "no, that's what happened in the game so he remains dead".
I name my darkest Dungeon characters and when they die "they die" because "that's what happened.
Story shattering event.
I think there should be permanent death MMOs for players who want that. I'm never for NOT making specific games. It's just when those specific games become the latest fad and nothing else is produced that I get pissy
Your first sentence is what I'm getting at, though. If you're not trying to get players to like it, why must there be a point where they will? It sounds just like "How can we get you to like this feature?" to me.
I'll end with this: <points to chest, at about the heart> Perma Death hurt me here... <said in a very sad, scared, and trembling voice>
Well, it's not my thread. He/She is asking because "curious?"
I like the idea because it sets stakes.
Again, with Darkest Dungeon, especially with a mission where you are either successful or you fail.
It's sort of like Dark Souls. People play it because of the unforgiving nature of the combat (yes, there is no permadeath in that game).
It sets a groundwork where people can talk about their shared experiences. The developers could have made an easy mode or a hard mode or a story mode but they wanted their players to have a certain experience.
That's why players talk about ffa pvp or permadeath or any number of things. Mention x boss or y encounter and people can relate.
And most inmpoartntly, on an even playing field using the same rules
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
An honest question to permadeath supporters: how could a player derive pleasure from a game supposed to be built on the notion of long-term character advancement, if you implemented a feature that would totally negate the core design of the game? Perma-death could work in games built on short-term, skill-based principles where there is no long-term investment by the player. But how could it ever work in a MMORPG?
Because MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game
Not massively vertical progression based grind game.
Suppose you were to play a game where characters die of old age, power gap was very small, and characters die upon death. The game revolves more around following your household through generations than a single character through one massively long grind.
But you're going out you're, exploring the world, customizing and building upon those characters for as long as they last. Crafting, gathering, etc. Experiencing the world through the eyes of the members of this household.
This game is shared online in a single persistent world with hundreds or thousands of other players.
An honest question to permadeath supporters: how could a player derive pleasure from a game supposed to be built on the notion of long-term character advancement, if you implemented a feature that would totally negate the core design of the game? Perma-death could work in games built on short-term, skill-based principles where there is no long-term investment by the player. But how could it ever work in a MMORPG?
Because MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game
Not massively vertical progression based grind game.
Suppose you were to play a game where characters die of old age, power gap was very small, and characters die upon death. The game revolves more around following your household through generations than a single character through one massively long grind.
But you're going out you're, exploring the world, customizing and building upon those characters for as long as they last. Crafting, gathering, etc. Experiencing the world through the eyes of the members of this household.
This game is shared online in a single persistent world with hundreds or thousands of other players.
What about that =/= MMORPG?
People arent open minded. Just like quest based progression didn't really exist until WoW or EQ 2. Now people can't wrap their minds around MMORPG working any other way.
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I don't play many games, but I do I spend quite a bit of time on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Fallout 4 - 4 hours
Witcher 3 - 7 hours
Dark Souls 3 - 14 hours
Darkfall Age of agon - 24 hours
Civ 5 - 86 hours
Conan Exiles - 171 hours
Path of Exile - 1300+ hours
EVE - not done it on steam but probably 100 or so
Entropia - not done on steam but may be 500-1000 or so
I got some game time on Madden 18 on xbox.
Also, it would be fun to play an MMORPG with permadeath but only if there were other people playing it or if there was a server for it.
I truly think if one game company had a permadeath server it would have a small but rabidly loyal fanbase. I'd play it for sure.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Depends on the game however.
You have a game like Fortnight, where you get 1 life to try any arena, and your entire character is lost upon death or victory.
You have Perma-Death in the form that you have many characters on an account, and if you die, only that single character dies, and all account based loot, gear, and the like is still there, not to mention your characters may have access to account based banks making re-starting easier.
Then you have games like Day-Z, where you get 1 character, per account, and if you die, you have to start from the very beginning again.
That would be a thousand hours at the end of year, MMO's are built to be long standing games, as such, mechanics that make it so all that work can be taken from another, are not appealing to the players that are looking to play those kinds of games.
If you notice a trend among all the people that want Perma-Death, all their suggestions are built around shallow games with almost no progression, so the Perma-Death does not in fact hurt them, as they can re-start with minimal loss.. exactly as a MOBA would be.
As such, there is simply not a significant market for those players among deep games with long progression cycles like MMO are built to have.
And I have a feeling that if a MMO would have something like it mechanics wise we would have to pay in the cashshop to get rezzed.
It is certainly true that "it have failed in the past" doesn't mean a feature can't work, but it tends to mean that the games trying it in the past didn't get the feature right. And all features that punish the players for failing (which death penalties and perma death are) needs a lot of consideration if you trying to make a popular game.
The real problem with implementing features from pen and paper roleplaying is that you get so much more done in a MMORPG. We rarely have more then 3 different fights during 8 hours P&P playing (annd sometimes we have none at all) while in a MMO you coulld have hundreds of fights in the same time. Also, at best I play once a week there while many people play MMOs several days a week if not all days.
MMOs have more combat and are more focused on it which means you chances of dying during an 8 hour session is far greater. And you don't have a DM that fudges a roll for you if he is wussy and think you don't deserve to die because of a bad roll (I believe in letting the die fall as it rolls though).
Modern players whines about death penalties even if they are small so getting them to play a perma death game means you need an incredible game that is so much better then anything else.
I think the simplest solution is to run 3 different server sets, 1 without the death penalty at all, one with a death penalty where you loose a level or so when you die and one perma death set. You would need some balancing for that as well, so that the perma death server have far better looting while the no penalty have far worse loot.
I think that is the only way if you want a popular standard MMO with full death penaly. And that system do work, at least to some degree. EQs did that with it's Discord server.
But I came to a realization many years ago: I'm old. By that, I mean I have a job, bills, kids, a wife. I can't afford to play a game for hours and then lose it all because the dog jumps in my lap at the wrong time or one of my girls gets hurt.
Permadeath is a young man's game!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Perm death wouldnt just be some hardcore mode for me. I am not picturing WoW clone MMORPG.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm not sure about the original XCom game, but Firaxis' stab at it "Iron Man" is an option, not a requirement. I have no clue about Darkest Dungeon. I would be surprised if over half the XCom players have played "iron man." I have tried it and lost soldiers to stupid "AlBQuirky Mechanical Mistakes" (misclicking and such). I reload without guilt. I don't even try anymore, instead just "save scumming" away. If a soldier dies because of my lack of strategy, they are dead.
I agree with the pen and paper point. In D&D I've played with many different DM types. One had us roll 3 characters to start and if any made it to 3rd level, they'd get a name. I hated that and played only a handful of times. Most of my other DMs, whom I enjoyed playing with much more, used perma-death as a story shattering event, which is how I view it.
Let's face it, games are to played and have fun, whiling away the hours. If permanent death is not fun for some, it's not fun. Trying to "make it fun" is missing the point and cheapens what perma death is all about. I am for harsher death penalties, but permanent death is my own personal "step too far."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
PS: I'm not an average player and am in total agreement with you
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Perma-death could work in games built on short-term, skill-based principles where there is no long-term investment by the player. But how could it ever work in a MMORPG?
Your first sentence is what I'm getting at, though. If you're not trying to get players to like it, why must there be a point where they will? It sounds just like "How can we get you to like this feature?" to me.
I'll end with this:
<points to chest, at about the heart> Perma Death hurt me here... <said in a very sad, scared, and trembling voice>
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Not massively vertical progression based grind game.
Suppose you were to play a game where characters die of old age, power gap was very small, and characters die upon death. The game revolves more around following your household through generations than a single character through one massively long grind.
But you're going out you're, exploring the world, customizing and building upon those characters for as long as they last. Crafting, gathering, etc. Experiencing the world through the eyes of the members of this household.
This game is shared online in a single persistent world with hundreds or thousands of other players.
What about that =/= MMORPG?