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How could you accept permanent death?

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  • l2avism2l2avism2 Member UncommonPosts: 38
    edited May 2018
    My issue with permanent deathis pretty simple. I don't like the thought of losing a character I spent hundreds of hours on. I also like long-term games that I can spend hundreds of hours on a character. I guess it would be okay if I can pass on all the skills and items to a descendant but what's the difference between that and a simple cosmetic face change.


    You should try games were you don't spend 100's of hours just to reach the point in the game were the real content actually starts.
    You may get your life back. You may even have time to get a dayjob and pursue romantic relationships.
    The only reason why these games even had such long grinds was because the end game was always lacking and they needed to extract as much subscription dollars as possible before you reached the end and quit.
    There were mmos out there that did not have long grinds and actually instead focused entirely on end game, but most of those are old school and you wouldn't touch a game without a requirement for 4gb of vram with a 15 foot pole.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    It seems like most players are opposed to permanent death.  I have a feeling most players think of a WoW character they spent hundreds of hours on just gone or dying and starting over repeatedly.  To me yes that would suck.

    That said, there circumstances I could accept perm death. 

    1. Only risky gameplay causing perm death like fighting the world eater dragon.  Not every defeat is perm.

    2. All items would have to decay to destruction point and be much easier to get than typical MMORPG. 

    3. You can choose a successor or child that gets your items, unique traits depending on how character was played and higher skill cap.  

    I think that kind of gameplay could make for me.
    For me, I can't accept permanent death at all.

    When I role up a character in any RPG, I have that character in mind. I their personality sketched out along with what kind of character they are. I don't go as far as to write a back story (I'd rather play the game), but I have an idea of who they are. When they die in a permanent way, their story is done, cut short. I am unable to "transfer" them to another character, like a child or some other vessel. Others may accept, but I can't.

    Your ideas are interesting, but all of them end that particular character's story, which is why I am playing, not to reach the end of the game, or beat it.
    [Deleted User]Kyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • XatshXatsh Member RarePosts: 451
    Perma death has no place in mmos for me.

    The mmo genre has been about long term character progression. A never ending journey. Something you come together to accomplish goals, hard fights you are suppose to die in until learned. Thing like losing XP, damaged (But repairable) gear, Corpse runs, ect are fine with me. But permanently losing progress or losing my character for any reason would be an immediant game killing feature for me. Would not matter if everything else was Best in the genre if there was perma death I simply would avoid it at all cost.

    Some games like Diablo, Path of Exile and such perma death is fine. But for a mmo where a character could have nearly 10-20k hours put into it... just does not fit the genre.
    [Deleted User]craftseekerAlBQuirky
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    Most people have not really though about what permadeath means in video games. In classic arcade games you reset to the start of the game when you ran out of lives ( or did not insert another quarter to continue). Is that permadeath? or just another form of respawn? In many FPS, you get 1 life per round, but you start again fresh in the next round. Is that permadeath? In many console platformers you get a limited number of lives, and when those run out, you may have to restart a level, or even restart the whole game. Is that permadeath?

    One of the defining factors of an RPG is persistent character/storyline progression. This is what differentiates it from a session based game, where you always start at the beginning.  If you add something that resets this, is the game still and RPG? Is a classic Mario game an RPG because it has story development?

    Death of a character in an RPG can add value to the story. However, if there is a lack of persistence, then did the character die? or was it just another form of respawn?

    Features (like Permadeath) are only a good idea if they add to the game experience. If they dont add value, or detract from it, they are not a good idea.
    [Deleted User]craftseekerGorweAlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems like most players are opposed to permanent death.  I have a feeling most players think of a WoW character they spent hundreds of hours on just gone or dying and starting over repeatedly.  To me yes that would suck.

    That said, there circumstances I could accept perm death. 

    1. Only risky gameplay causing perm death like fighting the world eater dragon.  Not every defeat is perm.

    2. All items would have to decay to destruction point and be much easier to get than typical MMORPG. 

    3. You can choose a successor or child that gets your items, unique traits depending on how character was played and higher skill cap.  

    I think that kind of gameplay could make for me.
    For me, I can't accept permanent death at all.

    When I role up a character in any RPG, I have that character in mind. I their personality sketched out along with what kind of character they are. I don't go as far as to write a back story (I'd rather play the game), but I have an idea of who they are. When they die in a permanent way, their story is done, cut short. I am unable to "transfer" them to another character, like a child or some other vessel. Others may accept, but I can't.

    Your ideas are interesting, but all of them end that particular character's story, which is why I am playing, not to reach the end of the game, or beat it.
    with that logic why not just create a backstory for another character. Not only does dying the character have a complete arc but it can also inform the backstory/narrative for the new character.
    AlBQuirky
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  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    edited May 2018
    *edit* Stupid Chrome double posted >< sorry
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    l2avism2 said:
    My issue with permanent deathis pretty simple. I don't like the thought of losing a character I spent hundreds of hours on. I also like long-term games that I can spend hundreds of hours on a character. I guess it would be okay if I can pass on all the skills and items to a descendant but what's the difference between that and a simple cosmetic face change.


    You should try games were you don't spend 100's of hours just to reach the point in the game were the real content actually starts.
    You may get your life back. You may even have time to get a dayjob and pursue romantic relationships.
    The only reason why these games even had such long grinds was because the end game was always lacking and they needed to extract as much subscription dollars as possible before you reached the end and quit.
    There were mmos out there that did not have long grinds and actually instead focused entirely on end game, but most of those are old school and you wouldn't touch a game without a requirement for 4gb of vram with a 15 foot pole.



    Hmm nice try on the assumptions but I don't play end game. I like long term progression. I'm also happy married and very gainfully and  successfully employed.

    I also only play games maybe 5-10 hours per week because I am married and employed.

    I simply like long term progression. 
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • l2avism2l2avism2 Member UncommonPosts: 38
    edited May 2018
    The biggest problem here is the lack of differentiation between character progression and player progression.
    Mostly because most games today lack player progression. They are simply time-sinks were permadeath would result in the end of character progression (by ending the character) and therefor leave you with nothing. 
    This is similar to the effect expansion packs typically have as all of your prior character progression becomes irrelevant instantly.
    Permadeath would require a decoupling between the player and character in the same way we drive our cars and don't consider our cars to be extensions of ourselves.
    You don't attribute the car to your driving ability, just the driver.
    Any game that promotes player progression and puts character progression in the back seat can easily pull off permadeath.
    Vermillion_RaventhalEldurianAlBQuirkyLokero
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited May 2018
    l2avism2 said:
    The biggest problem here is the lack of differentiation between character progression and player progression.
    Mostly because most games today lack player progression. They are simply time-sinks were permadeath would result in the end of character progression (by ending the character) and therefor leave you with nothing. 
    This is similar to the effect expansion packs typically have as all of your prior character progression becomes irrelevant instantly.
    Permadeath would require a decoupling between the player and character in the same way we drive our cars and don't consider our cars to be extensions of ourselves.
    You don't attribute the car to your driving ability, just the driver.
    Any game that promotes player progression and puts character progression in the back seat can easily pull off permadeath.
    Good points. 

    Lack of imagination of what could be probably limits developers as well.  Through their own creativity limitations or publisher/hierarchy stifling things. I think it's evident that many developers also grew up on or created what has been (WoWish games).  Their philosophy is drenched in it. 

    I mean, my expectations of MMORPG started with UO and it certainly still effects me.  It wasn't my first MMORPG but U7 is what drove me to look for the genre.  I signed up for UO first before playing Dark Sun and Merdian 59.
  • l2avism2l2avism2 Member UncommonPosts: 38
    Merdian 59.
    You are old. :p
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    l2avism2 said:
    The biggest problem here is the lack of differentiation between character progression and player progression.
    Mostly because most games today lack player progression. They are simply time-sinks were permadeath would result in the end of character progression (by ending the character) and therefor leave you with nothing. 
    This is similar to the effect expansion packs typically have as all of your prior character progression becomes irrelevant instantly.
    Permadeath would require a decoupling between the player and character in the same way we drive our cars and don't consider our cars to be extensions of ourselves.
    You don't attribute the car to your driving ability, just the driver.
    Any game that promotes player progression and puts character progression in the back seat can easily pull off permadeath.
    That would be very interesting to pull off in an MMO format. I believe firmly in the ability for people to get invested in a game without character progression for many years because I've done it. In the unmodded version of my all time favorite game (Freelancer) character progression could be completed in as little as 4 hours. But I played it for several years because the combat and player-politics were so riveting. 

    In a game with good territorial control systems, you could really shift emphasis from character development to territory development. Make it about contributing to your homestead, village, city, guild, or nation.

    In terms of character development the system I had in mind is unlocking new but not inherently more powerful character customization options. But you could do a permadeath system with regular character progression scaled down in how much power it gives you, and the expectation of death semi-frequent deaths. So most characters would die at like 100-150% starting strength and an exceptionally well played character would probably reach venerable age and die at 200-300% starting strength. Probably at a week to a month real life age tops.

    The dynamics of that would be very interesting. Would be a lot like a MOBA where you learn to just get over the fact that your character is reset at the start of each match.

    The big problem I foresee with that system is less that it wouldn't be fun and more that a lot of people would hear about the system and conclude it's terrible without trying it because it's so far removed from anything they have ever experienced.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited May 2018
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems like most players are opposed to permanent death.  I have a feeling most players think of a WoW character they spent hundreds of hours on just gone or dying and starting over repeatedly.  To me yes that would suck.

    That said, there circumstances I could accept perm death. 

    1. Only risky gameplay causing perm death like fighting the world eater dragon.  Not every defeat is perm.

    2. All items would have to decay to destruction point and be much easier to get than typical MMORPG. 

    3. You can choose a successor or child that gets your items, unique traits depending on how character was played and higher skill cap.  

    I think that kind of gameplay could make for me.
    For me, I can't accept permanent death at all.

    When I role up a character in any RPG, I have that character in mind. I their personality sketched out along with what kind of character they are. I don't go as far as to write a back story (I'd rather play the game), but I have an idea of who they are. When they die in a permanent way, their story is done, cut short. I am unable to "transfer" them to another character, like a child or some other vessel. Others may accept, but I can't.

    Your ideas are interesting, but all of them end that particular character's story, which is why I am playing, not to reach the end of the game, or beat it.
    with that logic why not just create a backstory for another character. Not only does dying the character have a complete arc but it can also inform the backstory/narrative for the new character.
    That's a good idea. I'll have to think about that because I have never before "made connections" between different characters in a game, including D&D :)

    PS: I wanted to add permanent death would work for me before I knew much about the game, as a whole. Once I know the game fairly well, I have points in the game each character will be interested in. So early on, permanent death would not be so bad for me.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    For me, I can't accept permanent death at all.

    When I role up a character in any RPG, I have that character in mind. I their personality sketched out along with what kind of character they are. I don't go as far as to write a back story (I'd rather play the game), but I have an idea of who they are. When they die in a permanent way, their story is done, cut short. I am unable to "transfer" them to another character, like a child or some other vessel. Others may accept, but I can't.

    Your ideas are interesting, but all of them end that particular character's story, which is why I am playing, not to reach the end of the game, or beat it.
    with that logic why not just create a backstory for another character. Not only does dying the character have a complete arc but it can also inform the backstory/narrative for the new character.

    Many people play MSOs like singleplayer games - you know they change the characters imagine different roles, so I do not see how the PD will be a bad feature for them. As a RP feature it is completely fine and immersive. The issue is actually if you want just to play game and win.

    How is what I said "playing a single player game?" Do you know how to read, or maybe even more to the point, comprehend what you do read?

    And what is "wrong" with playing solo in an MMO? Must I grab a group to do my crafting?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited May 2018
    DMKano said:
    The game design has to take perma-death into account - otherwise if you lost everything in a game like WoW and had to start from level 1 again - oh boy... worst design ever.


    So for perma death to work - you have to change the game, like transferrable progression to new characters, or super easy/fast way to regain lost gear/skill/xp etc...

    etc...

    Perma death can totally work in games that are designed to handle it correctly.
    How is it perm-death if you can transfer progression?
    How is super easy progression different from a death penalty?

    No perma-death is either thinly disguised respawning or too harsh a penalty to make an enjoyable game.
    The transfer of progression with permanent death is the default standard in real life. It is reasonable for a game with permanent character death to mimic that in whatever context makes sense for it.
    Really? When I die, my son will have the same college degree I acquired? He'll have the same experience in working to place on a resume as I do now?

    Cool!

    [edit] Lost part of KnightFalz's quote...
    Post edited by AlBQuirky on
    [Deleted User]Lokero

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited May 2018
    Quizzical said:
    The problem with such harsh death penalties is, one Internet glitch, one lag spike, and you've lost everything.
    That is a valid point for many types of games.  But a lag spike won't kill you if the game is strictly turn-based and can wait for you to come back.
    The turn based combat games I have played have a timer. Forget lag spikes. Let's talk about outages and storms.
    Phry[Deleted User]

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Darkest Dungeon is the only kind of permadeath game I would play...YOu get replacements all the time so it made dealing with deaths easier.....As for permadeath in a MMO, no way.
    What causes your aversion to perm death in MMO?
    time spend on it, money spend on it, time spend making the char in the creation. its ok perma death on single player because on that you can choose keep playing after a key char died or just reload the last save and do it all over, but like all things nope I wouldn't play a perma death mmo, if you want go ahead have a blast, but it will be a niche game and never hope more then that
    Phry[Deleted User]
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Permanent death is what happens to your character when a studio shuts down.  Passing skills down to children is more like a deleveling, xp death penalty then anything else.  
    AlBQuirkyIselin

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Quizzical said:
    zimboy69 said:
    1/ id have player character grow old 1 year a week
    2/ after the age of  40 they  would gain perma death

     they would get both a reduction of hitpoints by 1% per week
    and  a chance of  perma death by 1% per week

    so a 80 year old  would have 40% on any death to die and  a reduction of hitpoints by  40%    

    3/all players gain children who gain all belongings  


    Id think the recycling of the player base would be  pretty  cool and    when you meet a  really old warrior  who could die from a fall  down the stairs 
    That would give far too large of an advantage to people who can play many more hours per week, as putting in the same amount of gaming time across a much longer span of real-life time would be far inferior as your character is older and dies.  It would also just about ban playing alts at all.
    Cash Shop items!

    - Extend your life! $20

    I agree, though, that some kind of aging system (based on the server time?) would be acceptable and believable to me.

    Could go the old D&D route and as a character ages, stats and skills start dropping ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • spankybusspankybus Member UncommonPosts: 1,367
    A game with permanent needs to be all about the experience s d not about stuff....

    then it can become fun....’man, oldest character I never had was X months old....elder dragon finally got me, wiped a whole party.”

    in reality...a sword is mostly a sword, when actually made for combat. Sure, some might have superior workmanship...but overall, one won’t make you a god over another.

    overall, people are typically encentivized with material possessions, making permadeth unthinkable. At the same time, if there is literally no penalty for permadeath, there is no risk/challenge to the game. 
    would be a diffuse balance to strike...but I would love that game, should it ever show up.
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharalkarionlog

    Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
    www.spankybus.com
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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    l2avism2 said:
    My issue with permanent deathis pretty simple. I don't like the thought of losing a character I spent hundreds of hours on. I also like long-term games that I can spend hundreds of hours on a character. I guess it would be okay if I can pass on all the skills and items to a descendant but what's the difference between that and a simple cosmetic face change.
    You should try games were you don't spend 100's of hours just to reach the point in the game were the real content actually starts.
    This is why MMORPGs suck these days. Too many players have this thought that "the fun begins.... HERE! <some imaginary point in a game, usually at the end>."  If I'm not having from the get-go, I'm done.
    CryomatrixcraftseekerSovrath

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    edited May 2018
    I would like to have permanent death on grand game with big reward that worth the death .
    For example something like survivor zombie battle and the one who get highest survive point (longest online time , collect more zombie core) and pass the survive goal get $100.000 reward .
    Death mean wiped and start at 0 (online time and zombie core) . Time limited is 1 month and the game will restart next month . if no one pass the survive goal then the part of the reward will add to the next reward .

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    edited May 2018
    spankybus said:
    A game with permanent needs to be all about the experience s d not about stuff....

    then it can become fun....’man, oldest character I never had was X months old....elder dragon finally got me, wiped a whole party.”

    in reality...a sword is mostly a sword, when actually made for combat. Sure, some might have superior workmanship...but overall, one won’t make you a god over another.

    overall, people are typically encentivized with material possessions, making permadeth unthinkable. At the same time, if there is literally no penalty for permadeath, there is no risk/challenge to the game. 
    would be a diffuse balance to strike...but I would love that game, should it ever show up.
    Yeah, I want a game where the reward is the experience of playing, not the gear.

    craftseeker

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    This might have been brought up already, but I just blow through here from time to time anymore because MMO's are dead to me, but...cemeteries.
    A game could have cemeteries with a set number of tombstones (just as dressing), and mausoleums where a character's "family" (next gen character with inheritance) can pay for the dead character's name and brief history can be put on "the rolls".

    Ex:
    "Amaranthar the First,
    Died to the Elder Dragon XPysius,
    (game date),
    Was Known For His Good Looks and the Twinkle in his Eye."



    Lokero

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    I just had another thought Permanent death. How can one "figure out" the tough fights like boss battles? How does dungeon running work?

    Actually the dungeon running could be cool with all the dead players' loot dropping to add to it. I still wouldn't play it, but that'd be kind of cool :)

    Will the game have these in them?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ManestreamManestream Member UncommonPosts: 941
    Actually i would but with certain things being limited. PvP for a start, instances for another (if instanced) and world boss's.
    PvP - so gankers wont get the upper hand and become real nobshites 10x over.
    Instanced dungeons - Because you have to rely upon the rest of teh group and all it takes is 1 to balls it all up and get everyone killed, which of course could be done on purpose (loads of people out there that would do that).
    World Boss's - Simply more often than not you die during it.

    Or allow healers to still resurrected corpse's (whether there online or not), so one can hope for a resurrection from some kind player. Even if your playing a differant toon. Not exactly perma death there but one would have to hope for a resurrection (would not work in dungeon instances). Which is why i would like those to become none instanced.
    Guilds could create a portal with materials to allow entry to guild versions of instances (where healers CAN resurrected fallen guild members).
    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]
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