Originally posted by Ranma13 Originally posted by sleepyguyftl Glad you posted that. In those pictures there are maybe 50 players. There is a gate and pretty much nothing else. Now if you look at a game like WoW or EQ2 when there is a raid. You not only have 45 or more players in one area, you have ground, buildings, mobs, collission detection, atmospheric effects, PLAYER AVATARS, and spell effects to name a few.
You obviously didn't read my post. Ground is rendered by your computer (otherwise known as the client). The server doesn't send you any data in order for your computer to display the ground. Likewise, buildings, mobs, collision detection, and atmospheric effects are all handled by your game client. The only thing the server checks for is for anomalies, such as if your client reports that your current position is on top of a building, the server won't allow you to travel to those coordinates and puts you somewhere else.
The only things that you mentioned that actually requires the server to send any data to you is mob locations, player avatars, and spell effects. In EVE, the server needs to send you the location of the NPC pirates, player ships and their loadouts, and whether they're using their weapons/modules or not. It's the exact same thing.
Just because you see more on the frontend, doesn't necessarily mean the game is any more strenuous on a server. A CounterStrike: Source server receives/sends exactly the same amount of data as a CounterStrike server despite the graphical differences.
While the stuff is rendered by the computer, the server still has to track where everything is. How do you think that I (in CA) see the same mob in the same spot as someone in Florida? If it was indeed all done by the client it would be very easy for me to go in, hack the client and control where mobs appear and where they don't.
Mob LOCATION needs to be handled by the server, as I've stated. Once again you've shown that you don't read my posts and reply naively.
You don't seem to understand something, and that's that the game servers don't create a virtual world and then place objects inside it. It's all databases and numbers. Your current location? Just a set of coordinates. Mob type and location? Nothing more than an ID and location coordinates. Spells that people cast? A simple number that indicates which person cast it and which spell. Other player's equip? A simple string of numbers. All those trees, ground, etc. etc. is merely stored and rendered on your computer locally. The server merely gives you a set of numbers and the client translates those numbers into a mob that you can see.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by sleepyguyftl Glad you posted that. In those pictures there are maybe 50 players.
Close.
But it's a little less than double that.
89
on one team
I actually counted the blue dots and came up with 59. Granted I might of missed a few, but I did not miss 30. That doesn't matter though. The point is that Eve can do what it does because it saves resources in other area and can put them to use on player movements.
I'd gladly take 100 very distinct and unique environments and a few thousand players, over Eve where you have 25,000 servers with 5000 boring generic environments that have no personality to them at all.
Originally posted by sleepyguyftl I actually counted the blue dots and came up with 59. Granted I might of missed a few, but I did not miss 30. That doesn't matter though. The point is that Eve can do what it does because it saves resources in other area and can put them to use on player movements.
Yet again you prove your lack of any sort of technical knowledge on how server/client programs work. EVE ships are nothing more than a string of numbers that tell you what ship it is, who's flying it, what kind of equip it has, and its locations and direction it's facing. This is no different than the same string of numbers in any other MMORPG that tells you what race a character is, who's controlling it, what kind of equip it has, and its location and direction it's facing. EVE does not use any more resources for player movements than any other game.
Since you like to not read my posts and just come up with complete bull, let's put it this way:
For EVE:
Server sends: 0059, Client reads: Probe Server sends: Myrra (50423145), Client reads: Player is Myrra, contact database entry #50423145 for information Server sends: 058028033, Client reads: Miner I, Cargo Expander, Civilian Blaster Server sends: 53214307315 Client reads: Player is at 532, 143, 073 facing 15 degrees from North
For any other game:
Same as above, just replace what the client reads.
Originally posted by sleepyguyftl I actually counted the blue dots and came up with 59. Granted I might of missed a few, but I did not miss 30. That doesn't matter though.
I came up w/ 64, but when ppl move off screen, icons tend to stack. So I looked at player chat, subtracted 10 and added the Blue Dots.
sleepyThe point is that Eve can do what it does because it saves resources in other area and can put them to use on player movements.
You didn't read what that last guy posted at all did you? Not a single sentence of it. You have no idea how computers work apprently, much less games.
WoW, probably serves out about 2 - 5kb per person. equipment + movement + combat EVE, probably serves out about 10 - 15kb per person, it has MUCH more to keep track of. Load Outs + Each Ship firing (2 - 9 weapons) + Equipment Running (effects enviroment in MANY ways) + movement + missiles + probably abunch more stuff I forgot to mention.
You forgot to mention damage and optimal range. EVE has quite a complicated damage model based on range, gun statistics, relative velocity (both transversal and radial), and a percentage to hit.
Most MMORPGs have a simplified model for damage. Your spell/ability does a random number from a certain range (ex. 40-50). A mob's armor soaks 20% of that damage. The final damage is multiplied by a multiplier (or other similar system) to add some variety in damage. Before the damage goes through (or perhaps before it's even calculated), a check is made to see if it made the hit.
EVE also needs to calculate things in 3D space. Your ship has 3 coordinates in space, plus different values for heading. In other MMORPGs, it's usually a 2D coordinate (the z axis is handled by the client) and the heading is a simple compass heading from North.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by sleepyguyftl I actually counted the blue dots and came up with 59. Granted I might of missed a few, but I did not miss 30. That doesn't matter though.
I came up w/ 64, but when ppl move off screen, icons tend to stack. So I looked at player chat, subtracted 10 and added the Blue Dots.
sleepyThe point is that Eve can do what it does because it saves resources in other area and can put them to use on player movements.
You didn't read what that last guy posted at all did you? Not a single sentence of it. You have no idea how computers work apprently, much less games.
WoW, probably serves out about 2 - 5kb per person. equipment + movement + combat EVE, probably serves out about 10 - 15kb per person, it has MUCH more to keep track of. Load Outs + Each Ship firing (2 - 9 weapons) + Equipment Running (effects enviroment in MANY ways) + movement + missiles + probably abunch more stuff I forgot to mention.
First off I have a Bachelors in Comp Sci, I know how computers work.
Second if you think Eve had more to track than Wow or EQ2, then you haven't played WoW or Eq2. I've played all 3.
I also find it interesting that you said WoW has to deal with equipment, movement, and combat. Yet for Eve you explained what makes up equipment, movement and combat. Pretty shifty way of making it sound like one game has to deal with more.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Carebears want war (PvP with a purpose). Griefers want ganking.
Hmmm.
You're saying EVE doesn't have wars w/ a purpose?
EVE is the Only MMORPG out right now or ever released that actually has a purpose of a war. What do you consider a war? The war between the Horde and Alliance? lmmfao*1,000
EVE is a game buit on war. The ppl who know war know this and play. There is no coincidence that most of the big CEOs are X-Military Officers from some country or another.
There is as much "WAR" in eve online as there is in warcraft, its a big camp-the-gate gank-a-thon. There is no way to invade and lock down any system. Sure you can spend a bajillion gold on a spacestation that has a bajillion hitpoints, but unfortunately its orbitting a planet, and planets dont do anything in EVE ONLINE. Anyone can come into 'your' so called system and mine the asteroids around it, that stupid station with a bajillion hitpoints orbitting the planet mining moondust (which may I remind you is only used for player owned structures) wont do anything to defend you. It might as well not exist at all, as the player owned station's maintenence equals the amount of effort on the part of the players to maintain, there is no point in owning one at all.
Its a purposeless excersize with NO RETURNS. Not only is your experience bar filling linearly (in real time), so is your investment in time/rewards.
Owning land in Eve Online is as purposeless as in UO, you blow a bajillion gold on a house, and it sits there and does nothing. FUNCTIONLESS! PURPOSELESS! MINDLESS!
You are deluding yourself into thinking you are accomplishing anything at all whatsoever, and your skill-training is automated anyways SO WHY ARE YOU EVEN FREAKING BOTHERING TO LOG ON IN thE FIRST PLACE!
Originally posted by Ranma13 You forgot to mention damage and optimal range. EVE has quite a complicated damage model based on range, gun statistics, relative velocity (both transversal and radial), and a percentage to hit.Most MMORPGs have a simplified model for damage. Your spell/ability does a random number from a certain range (ex. 40-50). A mob's armor soaks 20% of that damage. The final damage is multiplied by a multiplier (or other similar system) to add some variety in damage. Before the damage goes through (or perhaps before it's even calculated), a check is made to see if it made the hit.EVE also needs to calculate things in 3D space. Your ship has 3 coordinates in space, plus different values for heading. In other MMORPGs, it's usually a 2D coordinate (the z axis is handled by the client) and the heading is a simple compass heading from North.
Please send me a link that tells me the simplied model for damage that either eq2 or WoW follow. Unless you do, your talking out your backside.
Originally posted by sleepyguyftl First off I have a Bachelors in Comp Sci, I know how computers work.
Your posts do not reflect that you have any knowledge of how server/client transfers work.
I also find it interesting that you said WoW has to deal with equipment, movement, and combat. Yet for Eve you explained what makes up equipment, movement and combat. Pretty shifty way of making it sound like one game has to deal with more.
EVE has to process slightly more than most MMORPGs due to its 3D coordinates and combat model.
Ground is rendered by your computer (otherwise known as the client). The server doesn't send you any data in order for your computer to display the ground. Likewise, buildings, mobs, collision detection, and atmospheric effects are all handled by your game client. The only thing the server checks for is for anomalies, such as if your client reports that your current position is on top of a building, the server won't allow you to travel to those coordinates and puts you somewhere else.
Just because you see more on the frontend, doesn't necessarily mean the game is any more strenuous on a server.
Yes, the client takes care of rendering the scene and the server makes sure that nothing outside the bounds of the game is being sent buy the client. However, How many obstacles are scattered around the Universe in Eve? Think about all the tables, chairs, walls, stairs, rocks, rivers, trees, and just plain stuff that the player could possibly walk or see through if the server wasn't constantly checking the incoming data. In Counter-Strike, the server does almost nothing as far as game logic is concerned. This is why you have people that can see through walls, shoot through walls, get shot in the face infinite times and take no damage, never run out of ammo, etc. The more complex the environment, the more complex the server has to become in order to prevent blantant cheating. Eve has only to update players about a handful of environment objects and other players. I could probably reduce the message for a particular environment object, like a planet, to less than 1K. Static objects in most games don't have to be sent to the client and can be reduced to a single bit in the world memory space on the server, but that's probably to deep for this crowd. And of course, all MMOs do batch updating according to how many players are in an area. If there isn't a player or a mob within the LOS of a player, the server can simply recieve and acknowledge incoming packets from the player. If a large group of players are in an area, then the server determines a group LOS and treats the area kind of like a chat room. Thus small clusters of players are updated in batch. Mobs also don't normally become active until a player comes within LOS of the spawn point or the last location that the mob was seen.
None of this really makes the 25k+ number any less impressive. Like I said before, 25,000 people on a chat server would be an incredible accomplisment. This information does make the number more understandable though. From what I've managed to pick up about Eve's server, it's a combination of brute technical power and some very subtle and tightly coded message queing routines. The simplicity of the game world only helps them stretch those advantages even further.
BTW, 10six was an MMORTS from back in the day that was extimated to be able to host 1 million players concurently. They never got that many subscribers, and I'm sure they couldn't do that now that Sega is out of the picture, but it does make you wonder....
Originally posted by Ranma13 EVE has to process slightly more than most MMORPGs due to its 3D coordinates and combat model.
What are you basing that on???
Your saying that Eve has a more complex model, ok. So explain to me the model that EQ2 or WoW uses and back it up with some actual proof. Unless you do that, you have no arguement at all.
That's the problem with this entire idea of posting Eve records. It's the reason why people get fed up. There is no proof of it. It's all just "Hey look we have the most!"
There are 2 ways of handling maneuvering around objects. Since the game client does the collision detection, simply give the coordinates in xy format and let the game client calculate where the z should be. For example, if the player should be standing on a hill, the game client sends the xy coordinate and the game client will place the player on the hill. This technique works if there is no multiple levels, but if you want to talk about an environment that has multiple levels (such as in a house where you can go on the roof, or up a spiraling staircase), then you simply introduce the z coordinate or some other variable to indicate height (like level 1, level 2, basement, etc...). Either way, the client does all the collision detection. The server merely checks to see if the numbers are correct.
In response to sleepyguyftl:
I'm basing it on simple logic. Let's observe the damage models for both types of games:
Traditional MMORPG:
Your spells usually have a damage range (ex. 40-50) and the mob will have some sort of soak which soaks up a certain percentage of that damage. Usually the system is a bit more complicated than that, allowing for situations such as doing full damage against a low-leveled mob and doing little damage against a high-leveled mob, but the basic damage model is based on a damage number and percentage soak. Now, before the damage is done, the to-hit chance is calculated. It's a simple process, if your to-hit chance is 80%, pick a random number between 4-5, if it's 5, you don't hit, anything else, you do. Then damage calculation is done based on your current mob's condition (if he is buffed/debuffed/etc...). This final number is multiplied by a random number that slightly increases or decreases the damage for some variance so you aren't just doing exactly 42 damage each time. Of course, this is a simple model of how damage is calculated. The algorithm I've presented is very processor-intensive (too many random number generations and multiplications) but the general premise for calculating damage is based on this.
In EVE:
The guide where I got this information from is available here:
Essentially, what it says is that the to-hit chance is the same, but requires more calculation to compute. In a traditional MMORPG, the to-hit chance is influenced by the mob's current condition and perhaps your relative position to the mob (front, back, side). In EVE, it's influenced by your range to the target, the turret stats, and your transversal velocity (velocity relative in the same plane as your target) and radial velocity (velocity relative to the perpendicular plane to your target). Essentially, this means that your range to your target and how you're traveling related to your target will influence your to-hit chance. Now, as for the actual damage calculation, it is done much in the same way as a traditional MMORPG. Your enemy has a resistance and a random value for the damage is applied for variance.
By looking at this, it's easy to see that the damage model for EVE is slightly more CPU-intensive on the servers than other MMORPGs. The higher CPU usage is offset by the different activities you can perform in EVE; unlike traditional MMORPGs where the main goal is to kill mobs, in EVE, killing mobs is not the primary activity.
Thus, the combat model in EVE theoretically takes up more CPU usage to process than that on traditional MMORPGs, if you are calculating it for per hit. As for the total amount with all the players factored in, that's anyone's guess.
When I referred to using more bandwidth per player, I was referring to the position coordinate of your ship in EVE. Since EVE takes place in 3D space, your ship not only has to have a xyz coordinate, but also a xz heading (no y since ships in EVE always point upright, they don't pitch). Admittedly, now that I give it more thought, perhaps EVE does use about the same bandwidth for ships as other MMORPGs. Though EVE ships have extra position coordinates to transfer, they have less equipment. The additional equipment on characters in other MMORPGs will make up for the difference. HOWEVER, it should be noted that EVE takes more bandwidth as a whole because of the sheer amount of database data that needs to be transferred to players whenever they want to request information from functions such as the market, searches, player info, etc...
I hardly believe that 25k player could be in the same space. The server doesn't send you information about where somebody is, if he's in another galaxy.
The server doesn't render anything. It only sends coordinates and stats to other players. And because the combat is at a best semi-realtime, you also minimize lag there. Not having to think about enviroment coalition saves a lot of traffic.
Originally posted by Jackcolt I hardly believe that 25k player could be in the same space. The server doesn't send you information about where somebody is, if he's in another galaxy.
Likewise, I doubt 3,000 players in another MMORPG could fit in one zone/area. EVE used to have problems when there were more than 100 people in the same system at once (EVE's load-balancing does not extend to inside a solar system) but ever since the servers were upgraded, even systems with 200 players experience minimal lag or adverse gaming performance.
25,000+ simultaneous players is an easily provable "we did it first" accomplishment. Simply try to name one game in which the theoretical player cap for a single server is greater than 25,000. Likewise, even if there is a game that has that cap (for example, the aforementioned 10six), has it ever been hit before?
But how does that then compare to say... Planetside? There's more than 200 at a time on 1 island. And there you need hit detection, coalition detection, real-time calcutions and such. You don't need that in EVE. And what about Joint Operations? 150 players at one time.
i see so many angry and jealous people this is really entertaining. you can bash the game all you want. it wont change a thing. it is the deepest and most complete MMORPG that you can play now (shame be on SOE ). it has the world record for most players online on the same world. those are oficial figures, so you can say whatever you want. it is a fact.
it also has one the 500 most powerful computer. and the playerbase is mature and loyal. and the best thing is that you can really feel part of the community, since we all play on the same server, and can meet ingame to do things together. anything you do and say either on the forums or in the game will affect everybody.
you can all keep playing wow or whatever it is you play. it is like comparing Age of Empires with Civilization. you choose age of empires, i choose civilization, or europa universalis.
but please, dont refrain. i am having a lot of fun with you.
i would like to give nerf09 the price for most clueless member on the forums, with a close second to gameloading. just dont change people, you are great.
pd: i really miss hadz and grunch. where are you guys?
Planetside uses a very simple hit detection model. There are no hit locations, it's either you hit them and dealt x damage, or you didn't. Collision detection (not coalition ) is handled by the client per usual. Real-time calculations are done the same way they're done in any other MMORPG, they're just sped up a bit.
Planetside, if you look at it server-side, is actually a very simple game. There are no mobs to maintain in memory and players don't have 20+ pieces of equipment on them with even more in their inventory. Avatar customization is close to none and there is no complex A.I. to maintain. As a result, the server runs the game much like a stripped-down CounterStrike server with a database backend to maintain its persistent world.
I don't really have a problem with all the EVE fanboys. I don't. Just don't be as pushy as some certain cults and religions is. Stay in your own board.
Collision detection is of course handled by the client, but it must be transfered to the other players, unless you want warping.
To sum up: Congrats with all that, but the people who actually gives a jacks behind, would go to the EVE board.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me or not, but in my defense, all I've presented were facts. Sure, I like EVE, but nowhere near fanatical about it. All of my statements are backed up with facts or very sound logic. I will not scream my head off if you do not like EVE, but if you present very poor reasons on why you do not like the game, I will contest it. I will contest anyone who comes up with a poor reason for not liking a game even if I myself don't like the game, because someone's got to teach these people that there's a difference between not liking a game but acknowledging that it is a GOOD game, and simply recognizing a bad effort at making a game.
P.S. Collision detection does not have to be transferred to other players. You're talking about player coordinates that needs to be transferred to other players. Their clients can then calculate collision detection based on your last received position.
Originally posted by Ranma13 P.S. Collision detection does not have to be transferred to other players. You're talking about player coordinates that needs to be transferred to other players. Their clients can then calculate collision detection based on your last received position.
This is actually the way it is done, but it is also the reason why it can be abused and exploited with hacked or faked clients in many ways. The concurrent calculations of the same collision on several clients lead to misinterpretation of situations; it is therefore not the preferred way of doing collision detection, it is just a workaround due to lack of computational power with shortcomings - collision detection should be done on the server and nowhere else.
Originally posted by Ranma13 I'm not sure if you're referring to me or not, but in my defense, all I've presented were facts. Sure, I like EVE, but nowhere near fanatical about it. All of my statements are backed up with facts or very sound logic. I will not scream my head off if you do not like EVE, but if you present very poor reasons on why you do not like the game, I will contest it. I will contest anyone who comes up with a poor reason for not liking a game even if I myself don't like the game, because someone's got to teach these people that there's a difference between not liking a game but acknowledging that it is a GOOD game, and simply recognizing a bad effort at making a game.P.S. Collision detection does not have to be transferred to other players. You're talking about player coordinates that needs to be transferred to other players. Their clients can then calculate collision detection based on your last received position.
And I agree. I hate when people doesn't come with good arguments for why they don't like a game. I can recognize that EVE has a great game design, and I see how it can appeal to certain player groups. I'm not in that group. I don't like EVE because of I prefer twitch based combat, and I don't like EVE because of the slow travelling, and because I'm not much for the skill system. Yet I can recognize it's innovative, and I can recognize that a lot of players will find it to be a good game. I'm not having fun while playing EVE. And when all comes to all, isn't it what we all want when playing.
I just have a problem with EVE fanboys comming out on every thread, saying EVE is perfect, invading the whole mmorpg.com
25k people per server is an amazin acomplishment. Most games I know can only have 2-3k per server and the game I've played with the most people per server6.5k wich is run on only subscribers money. Runescape also has a lot of people 185k simultanious users last month yae!! All in all I say Eve is a good game annd deserves the credit.
[quote]Originally posted by Ranma13 I'm basing it on simple logic. Let's observe the damage models for both types of games:
Traditional MMORPG:
Your spells usually have a damage range (ex. 40-50) and the mob will have some sort of soak which soaks up a certain percentage of that damage. Usually the system is a bit more complicated than that, allowing for situations such as doing full damage against a low-leveled mob and doing little damage against a high-leveled mob, but the basic damage model is based on a damage number and percentage soak. Now, before the damage is done, the to-hit chance is calculated. It's a simple process, if your to-hit chance is 80%, pick a random number between 4-5, if it's 5, you don't hit, anything else, you do. Then damage calculation is done based on your current mob's condition (if he is buffed/debuffed/etc...). This final number is multiplied by a random number that slightly increases or decreases the damage for some variance so you aren't just doing exactly 42 damage each time. Of course, this is a simple model of how damage is calculated. The algorithm I've presented is very processor-intensive (too many random number generations and multiplications) but the general premise for calculating damage is based on this.
In EVE:
The guide where I got this information from is available here:
Essentially, what it says is that the to-hit chance is the same, but requires more calculation to compute. In a traditional MMORPG, the to-hit chance is influenced by the mob's current condition and perhaps your relative position to the mob (front, back, side). In EVE, it's influenced by your range to the target, the turret stats, and your transversal velocity (velocity relative in the same plane as your target) and radial velocity (velocity relative to the perpendicular plane to your target). Essentially, this means that your range to your target and how you're traveling related to your target will influence your to-hit chance. Now, as for the actual damage calculation, it is done much in the same way as a traditional MMORPG. Your enemy has a resistance and a random value for the damage is applied for variance.
By looking at this, it's easy to see that the damage model for EVE is slightly more CPU-intensive on the servers than other MMORPGs. The higher CPU usage is offset by the different activities you can perform in EVE; unlike traditional MMORPGs where the main goal is to kill mobs, in EVE, killing mobs is not the primary activity.
Thus, the combat model in EVE theoretically takes up more CPU usage to process than that on traditional MMORPGs, if you are calculating it for per hit. As for the total amount with all the players factored in, that's anyone's guess.
When I referred to using more bandwidth per player, I was referring to the position coordinate of your ship in EVE. Since EVE takes place in 3D space, your ship not only has to have a xyz coordinate, but also a xz heading (no y since ships in EVE always point upright, they don't pitch). Admittedly, now that I give it more thought, perhaps EVE does use about the same bandwidth for ships as other MMORPGs. Though EVE ships have extra position coordinates to transfer, they have less equipment. The additional equipment on characters in other MMORPGs will make up for the difference. HOWEVER, it should be noted that EVE takes more bandwidth as a whole because of the sheer amount of database data that needs to be transferred to players whenever they want to request information from functions such as the market, searches, player info, etc...[/b][/quote]
You didn't respond to my question in a reasonable manor.
You are saying since EQ2 and WoW don't have the same combat system as Eve, they must have this other one that is in a traditional mmo. Which simply is not logical.
If you can provide me with specific details on how EQ2 or WoW deal with combat, then we will talk. Untill then you really have no arguement because you are lacking knowledge in how one half of your arguement works.
Originally posted by apertotes i see so many angry and jealous people this is really entertaining. you can bash the game all you want. it wont change a thing. it is the deepest and most complete MMORPG that you can play now (shame be on SOE ). it has the world record for most players online on the same world. those are oficial figures, so you can say whatever you want. it is a fact.
You can keep saying it's a fact all you want. That still won't make it true. You can think Eve-Online is the deepest, and most entertaining game out there. For you it is, but as soon as someone else doesn't agree. Then it isn't a fact, just another subjective opinion. So keep spouting all the Eve-Online is the great game non-sense you want. Still doesn't make it better then any other game out there.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Comments
You obviously didn't read my post. Ground is rendered by your computer (otherwise known as the client). The server doesn't send you any data in order for your computer to display the ground. Likewise, buildings, mobs, collision detection, and atmospheric effects are all handled by your game client. The only thing the server checks for is for anomalies, such as if your client reports that your current position is on top of a building, the server won't allow you to travel to those coordinates and puts you somewhere else.
The only things that you mentioned that actually requires the server to send any data to you is mob locations, player avatars, and spell effects. In EVE, the server needs to send you the location of the NPC pirates, player ships and their loadouts, and whether they're using their weapons/modules or not. It's the exact same thing.
Just because you see more on the frontend, doesn't necessarily mean the game is any more strenuous on a server. A CounterStrike: Source server receives/sends exactly the same amount of data as a CounterStrike server despite the graphical differences.
While the stuff is rendered by the computer, the server still has to track where everything is. How do you think that I (in CA) see the same mob in the same spot as someone in Florida? If it was indeed all done by the client it would be very easy for me to go in, hack the client and control where mobs appear and where they don't.
Mob LOCATION needs to be handled by the server, as I've stated. Once again you've shown that you don't read my posts and reply naively.
You don't seem to understand something, and that's that the game servers don't create a virtual world and then place objects inside it. It's all databases and numbers. Your current location? Just a set of coordinates. Mob type and location? Nothing more than an ID and location coordinates. Spells that people cast? A simple number that indicates which person cast it and which spell. Other player's equip? A simple string of numbers. All those trees, ground, etc. etc. is merely stored and rendered on your computer locally. The server merely gives you a set of numbers and the client translates those numbers into a mob that you can see.
But it's a little less than double that.
89
on one team
I actually counted the blue dots and came up with 59. Granted I might of missed a few, but I did not miss 30. That doesn't matter though. The point is that Eve can do what it does because it saves resources in other area and can put them to use on player movements.
I'd gladly take 100 very distinct and unique environments and a few thousand players, over Eve where you have 25,000 servers with 5000 boring generic environments that have no personality to them at all.
Yet again you prove your lack of any sort of technical knowledge on how server/client programs work. EVE ships are nothing more than a string of numbers that tell you what ship it is, who's flying it, what kind of equip it has, and its locations and direction it's facing. This is no different than the same string of numbers in any other MMORPG that tells you what race a character is, who's controlling it, what kind of equip it has, and its location and direction it's facing. EVE does not use any more resources for player movements than any other game.
Since you like to not read my posts and just come up with complete bull, let's put it this way:
For EVE:
Server sends: 0059, Client reads: Probe
Server sends: Myrra (50423145), Client reads: Player is Myrra, contact database entry #50423145 for information
Server sends: 058028033, Client reads: Miner I, Cargo Expander, Civilian Blaster
Server sends: 53214307315 Client reads: Player is at 532, 143, 073 facing 15 degrees from North
For any other game:
Same as above, just replace what the client reads.
I came up w/ 64, but when ppl move off screen, icons tend to stack. So I looked at player chat, subtracted 10 and added the Blue Dots.
You didn't read what that last guy posted at all did you? Not a single sentence of it. You have no idea how computers work apprently, much less games.
WoW, probably serves out about 2 - 5kb per person. equipment + movement + combat
EVE, probably serves out about 10 - 15kb per person, it has MUCH more to keep track of. Load Outs + Each Ship firing (2 - 9 weapons) + Equipment Running (effects enviroment in MANY ways) + movement + missiles + probably abunch more stuff I forgot to mention.
A Work in Progress.
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You forgot to mention damage and optimal range. EVE has quite a complicated damage model based on range, gun statistics, relative velocity (both transversal and radial), and a percentage to hit.
Most MMORPGs have a simplified model for damage. Your spell/ability does a random number from a certain range (ex. 40-50). A mob's armor soaks 20% of that damage. The final damage is multiplied by a multiplier (or other similar system) to add some variety in damage. Before the damage goes through (or perhaps before it's even calculated), a check is made to see if it made the hit.
EVE also needs to calculate things in 3D space. Your ship has 3 coordinates in space, plus different values for heading. In other MMORPGs, it's usually a 2D coordinate (the z axis is handled by the client) and the heading is a simple compass heading from North.
I came up w/ 64, but when ppl move off screen, icons tend to stack. So I looked at player chat, subtracted 10 and added the Blue Dots.
You didn't read what that last guy posted at all did you? Not a single sentence of it. You have no idea how computers work apprently, much less games.
WoW, probably serves out about 2 - 5kb per person. equipment + movement + combat
EVE, probably serves out about 10 - 15kb per person, it has MUCH more to keep track of. Load Outs + Each Ship firing (2 - 9 weapons) + Equipment Running (effects enviroment in MANY ways) + movement + missiles + probably abunch more stuff I forgot to mention.
First off I have a Bachelors in Comp Sci, I know how computers work.
Second if you think Eve had more to track than Wow or EQ2, then you haven't played WoW or Eq2. I've played all 3.
I also find it interesting that you said WoW has to deal with equipment, movement, and combat. Yet for Eve you explained what makes up equipment, movement and combat. Pretty shifty way of making it sound like one game has to deal with more.
You're saying EVE doesn't have wars w/ a purpose?
EVE is the Only MMORPG out right now or ever released that actually has a purpose of a war. What do you consider a war? The war between the Horde and Alliance? lmmfao*1,000
EVE is a game buit on war. The ppl who know war know this and play. There is no coincidence that most of the big CEOs are X-Military Officers from some country or another.
There is as much "WAR" in eve online as there is in warcraft, its a big camp-the-gate gank-a-thon. There is no way to invade and lock down any system. Sure you can spend a bajillion gold on a spacestation that has a bajillion hitpoints, but unfortunately its orbitting a planet, and planets dont do anything in EVE ONLINE. Anyone can come into 'your' so called system and mine the asteroids around it, that stupid station with a bajillion hitpoints orbitting the planet mining moondust (which may I remind you is only used for player owned structures) wont do anything to defend you. It might as well not exist at all, as the player owned station's maintenence equals the amount of effort on the part of the players to maintain, there is no point in owning one at all.
Its a purposeless excersize with NO RETURNS. Not only is your experience bar filling linearly (in real time), so is your investment in time/rewards.
Owning land in Eve Online is as purposeless as in UO, you blow a bajillion gold on a house, and it sits there and does nothing. FUNCTIONLESS! PURPOSELESS! MINDLESS!
You are deluding yourself into thinking you are accomplishing anything at all whatsoever, and your skill-training is automated anyways SO WHY ARE YOU EVEN FREAKING BOTHERING TO LOG ON IN thE FIRST PLACE!
Please send me a link that tells me the simplied model for damage that either eq2 or WoW follow. Unless you do, your talking out your backside.
Your posts do not reflect that you have any knowledge of how server/client transfers work.
EVE has to process slightly more than most MMORPGs due to its 3D coordinates and combat model.
Ranma13 wrote:
Ground is rendered by your computer (otherwise known as the client). The server doesn't send you any data in order for your computer to display the ground. Likewise, buildings, mobs, collision detection, and atmospheric effects are all handled by your game client. The only thing the server checks for is for anomalies, such as if your client reports that your current position is on top of a building, the server won't allow you to travel to those coordinates and puts you somewhere else.
Just because you see more on the frontend, doesn't necessarily mean the game is any more strenuous on a server.
Yes, the client takes care of rendering the scene and the server makes sure that nothing outside the bounds of the game is being sent buy the client. However, How many obstacles are scattered around the Universe in Eve? Think about all the tables, chairs, walls, stairs, rocks, rivers, trees, and just plain stuff that the player could possibly walk or see through if the server wasn't constantly checking the incoming data. In Counter-Strike, the server does almost nothing as far as game logic is concerned. This is why you have people that can see through walls, shoot through walls, get shot in the face infinite times and take no damage, never run out of ammo, etc. The more complex the environment, the more complex the server has to become in order to prevent blantant cheating. Eve has only to update players about a handful of environment objects and other players. I could probably reduce the message for a particular environment object, like a planet, to less than 1K. Static objects in most games don't have to be sent to the client and can be reduced to a single bit in the world memory space on the server, but that's probably to deep for this crowd. And of course, all MMOs do batch updating according to how many players are in an area. If there isn't a player or a mob within the LOS of a player, the server can simply recieve and acknowledge incoming packets from the player. If a large group of players are in an area, then the server determines a group LOS and treats the area kind of like a chat room. Thus small clusters of players are updated in batch. Mobs also don't normally become active until a player comes within LOS of the spawn point or the last location that the mob was seen.
None of this really makes the 25k+ number any less impressive. Like I said before, 25,000 people on a chat server would be an incredible accomplisment. This information does make the number more understandable though. From what I've managed to pick up about Eve's server, it's a combination of brute technical power and some very subtle and tightly coded message queing routines. The simplicity of the game world only helps them stretch those advantages even further.
BTW, 10six was an MMORTS from back in the day that was extimated to be able to host 1 million players concurently. They never got that many subscribers, and I'm sure they couldn't do that now that Sega is out of the picture, but it does make you wonder....
What are you basing that on???
Your saying that Eve has a more complex model, ok. So explain to me the model that EQ2 or WoW uses and back it up with some actual proof. Unless you do that, you have no arguement at all.
That's the problem with this entire idea of posting Eve records. It's the reason why people get fed up. There is no proof of it. It's all just "Hey look we have the most!"
In response to Jimmy_Scythe:
There are 2 ways of handling maneuvering around objects. Since the game client does the collision detection, simply give the coordinates in xy format and let the game client calculate where the z should be. For example, if the player should be standing on a hill, the game client sends the xy coordinate and the game client will place the player on the hill. This technique works if there is no multiple levels, but if you want to talk about an environment that has multiple levels (such as in a house where you can go on the roof, or up a spiraling staircase), then you simply introduce the z coordinate or some other variable to indicate height (like level 1, level 2, basement, etc...). Either way, the client does all the collision detection. The server merely checks to see if the numbers are correct.
In response to sleepyguyftl:
I'm basing it on simple logic. Let's observe the damage models for both types of games:
Traditional MMORPG:
Your spells usually have a damage range (ex. 40-50) and the mob will have some sort of soak which soaks up a certain percentage of that damage. Usually the system is a bit more complicated than that, allowing for situations such as doing full damage against a low-leveled mob and doing little damage against a high-leveled mob, but the basic damage model is based on a damage number and percentage soak. Now, before the damage is done, the to-hit chance is calculated. It's a simple process, if your to-hit chance is 80%, pick a random number between 4-5, if it's 5, you don't hit, anything else, you do. Then damage calculation is done based on your current mob's condition (if he is buffed/debuffed/etc...). This final number is multiplied by a random number that slightly increases or decreases the damage for some variance so you aren't just doing exactly 42 damage each time. Of course, this is a simple model of how damage is calculated. The algorithm I've presented is very processor-intensive (too many random number generations and multiplications) but the general premise for calculating damage is based on this.
In EVE:
The guide where I got this information from is available here:
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp
Essentially, what it says is that the to-hit chance is the same, but requires more calculation to compute. In a traditional MMORPG, the to-hit chance is influenced by the mob's current condition and perhaps your relative position to the mob (front, back, side). In EVE, it's influenced by your range to the target, the turret stats, and your transversal velocity (velocity relative in the same plane as your target) and radial velocity (velocity relative to the perpendicular plane to your target). Essentially, this means that your range to your target and how you're traveling related to your target will influence your to-hit chance. Now, as for the actual damage calculation, it is done much in the same way as a traditional MMORPG. Your enemy has a resistance and a random value for the damage is applied for variance.
By looking at this, it's easy to see that the damage model for EVE is slightly more CPU-intensive on the servers than other MMORPGs. The higher CPU usage is offset by the different activities you can perform in EVE; unlike traditional MMORPGs where the main goal is to kill mobs, in EVE, killing mobs is not the primary activity.
Thus, the combat model in EVE theoretically takes up more CPU usage to process than that on traditional MMORPGs, if you are calculating it for per hit. As for the total amount with all the players factored in, that's anyone's guess.
When I referred to using more bandwidth per player, I was referring to the position coordinate of your ship in EVE. Since EVE takes place in 3D space, your ship not only has to have a xyz coordinate, but also a xz heading (no y since ships in EVE always point upright, they don't pitch). Admittedly, now that I give it more thought, perhaps EVE does use about the same bandwidth for ships as other MMORPGs. Though EVE ships have extra position coordinates to transfer, they have less equipment. The additional equipment on characters in other MMORPGs will make up for the difference. HOWEVER, it should be noted that EVE takes more bandwidth as a whole because of the sheer amount of database data that needs to be transferred to players whenever they want to request information from functions such as the market, searches, player info, etc...
I hardly believe that 25k player could be in the same space. The server doesn't send you information about where somebody is, if he's in another galaxy.
The server doesn't render anything. It only sends coordinates and stats to other players. And because the combat is at a best semi-realtime, you also minimize lag there. Not having to think about enviroment coalition saves a lot of traffic.
Likewise, I doubt 3,000 players in another MMORPG could fit in one zone/area. EVE used to have problems when there were more than 100 people in the same system at once (EVE's load-balancing does not extend to inside a solar system) but ever since the servers were upgraded, even systems with 200 players experience minimal lag or adverse gaming performance.
25,000+ simultaneous players is an easily provable "we did it first" accomplishment. Simply try to name one game in which the theoretical player cap for a single server is greater than 25,000. Likewise, even if there is a game that has that cap (for example, the aforementioned 10six), has it ever been hit before?
But how does that then compare to say... Planetside? There's more than 200 at a time on 1 island. And there you need hit detection, coalition detection, real-time calcutions and such. You don't need that in EVE. And what about Joint Operations? 150 players at one time.
i see so many angry and jealous people
this is really entertaining. you can bash the game all you want. it wont change a thing. it is the deepest and most complete MMORPG that you can play now (shame be on SOE 
). it has the world record for most players online on the same world. those are oficial figures, so you can say whatever you want. it is a fact.
it also has one the 500 most powerful computer. and the playerbase is mature and loyal. and the best thing is that you can really feel part of the community, since we all play on the same server, and can meet ingame to do things together. anything you do and say either on the forums or in the game will affect everybody.
you can all keep playing wow or whatever it is you play. it is like comparing Age of Empires with Civilization. you choose age of empires, i choose civilization, or europa universalis.
but please, dont refrain. i am having a lot of fun with you.
i would like to give nerf09 the price for most clueless member on the forums, with a close second to gameloading. just dont change people, you are great.
pd: i really miss hadz and grunch. where are you guys?
Planetside uses a very simple hit detection model. There are no hit locations, it's either you hit them and dealt x damage, or you didn't. Collision detection (not coalition
) is handled by the client per usual. Real-time calculations are done the same way they're done in any other MMORPG, they're just sped up a bit.
Planetside, if you look at it server-side, is actually a very simple game. There are no mobs to maintain in memory and players don't have 20+ pieces of equipment on them with even more in their inventory. Avatar customization is close to none and there is no complex A.I. to maintain. As a result, the server runs the game much like a stripped-down CounterStrike server with a database backend to maintain its persistent world.
I don't really have a problem with all the EVE fanboys. I don't. Just don't be as pushy as some certain cults and religions is. Stay in your own board.
Collision detection is of course handled by the client, but it must be transfered to the other players, unless you want warping.
To sum up: Congrats with all that, but the people who actually gives a jacks behind, would go to the EVE board.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me or not, but in my defense, all I've presented were facts. Sure, I like EVE, but nowhere near fanatical about it. All of my statements are backed up with facts or very sound logic. I will not scream my head off if you do not like EVE, but if you present very poor reasons on why you do not like the game, I will contest it. I will contest anyone who comes up with a poor reason for not liking a game even if I myself don't like the game, because someone's got to teach these people that there's a difference between not liking a game but acknowledging that it is a GOOD game, and simply recognizing a bad effort at making a game.
P.S. Collision detection does not have to be transferred to other players. You're talking about player coordinates that needs to be transferred to other players. Their clients can then calculate collision detection based on your last received position.
This is actually the way it is done, but it is also the reason why it can be abused and exploited with hacked or faked clients in many ways. The concurrent calculations of the same collision on several clients lead to misinterpretation of situations; it is therefore not the preferred way of doing collision detection, it is just a workaround due to lack of computational power with shortcomings - collision detection should be done on the server and nowhere else.
Ragosch
And I agree. I hate when people doesn't come with good arguments for why they don't like a game. I can recognize that EVE has a great game design, and I see how it can appeal to certain player groups. I'm not in that group. I don't like EVE because of I prefer twitch based combat, and I don't like EVE because of the slow travelling, and because I'm not much for the skill system. Yet I can recognize it's innovative, and I can recognize that a lot of players will find it to be a good game. I'm not having fun while playing EVE. And when all comes to all, isn't it what we all want when playing.
I just have a problem with EVE fanboys comming out on every thread, saying EVE is perfect, invading the whole mmorpg.com
25k people per server is an amazin acomplishment. Most games I know can only have 2-3k per server and the game I've played with the most people per server6.5k wich is run on only subscribers money. Runescape also has a lot of people 185k simultanious users last month yae!! All in all I say Eve is a good game annd deserves the credit.
[quote]Originally posted by Ranma13
I'm basing it on simple logic. Let's observe the damage models for both types of games:
Traditional MMORPG:
Your spells usually have a damage range (ex. 40-50) and the mob will have some sort of soak which soaks up a certain percentage of that damage. Usually the system is a bit more complicated than that, allowing for situations such as doing full damage against a low-leveled mob and doing little damage against a high-leveled mob, but the basic damage model is based on a damage number and percentage soak. Now, before the damage is done, the to-hit chance is calculated. It's a simple process, if your to-hit chance is 80%, pick a random number between 4-5, if it's 5, you don't hit, anything else, you do. Then damage calculation is done based on your current mob's condition (if he is buffed/debuffed/etc...). This final number is multiplied by a random number that slightly increases or decreases the damage for some variance so you aren't just doing exactly 42 damage each time. Of course, this is a simple model of how damage is calculated. The algorithm I've presented is very processor-intensive (too many random number generations and multiplications) but the general premise for calculating damage is based on this.
In EVE:
The guide where I got this information from is available here:
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp
Essentially, what it says is that the to-hit chance is the same, but requires more calculation to compute. In a traditional MMORPG, the to-hit chance is influenced by the mob's current condition and perhaps your relative position to the mob (front, back, side). In EVE, it's influenced by your range to the target, the turret stats, and your transversal velocity (velocity relative in the same plane as your target) and radial velocity (velocity relative to the perpendicular plane to your target). Essentially, this means that your range to your target and how you're traveling related to your target will influence your to-hit chance. Now, as for the actual damage calculation, it is done much in the same way as a traditional MMORPG. Your enemy has a resistance and a random value for the damage is applied for variance.
By looking at this, it's easy to see that the damage model for EVE is slightly more CPU-intensive on the servers than other MMORPGs. The higher CPU usage is offset by the different activities you can perform in EVE; unlike traditional MMORPGs where the main goal is to kill mobs, in EVE, killing mobs is not the primary activity.
Thus, the combat model in EVE theoretically takes up more CPU usage to process than that on traditional MMORPGs, if you are calculating it for per hit. As for the total amount with all the players factored in, that's anyone's guess.
When I referred to using more bandwidth per player, I was referring to the position coordinate of your ship in EVE. Since EVE takes place in 3D space, your ship not only has to have a xyz coordinate, but also a xz heading (no y since ships in EVE always point upright, they don't pitch). Admittedly, now that I give it more thought, perhaps EVE does use about the same bandwidth for ships as other MMORPGs. Though EVE ships have extra position coordinates to transfer, they have less equipment. The additional equipment on characters in other MMORPGs will make up for the difference. HOWEVER, it should be noted that EVE takes more bandwidth as a whole because of the sheer amount of database data that needs to be transferred to players whenever they want to request information from functions such as the market, searches, player info, etc...[/b][/quote]
You didn't respond to my question in a reasonable manor.
You are saying since EQ2 and WoW don't have the same combat system as Eve, they must have this other one that is in a traditional mmo. Which simply is not logical.
If you can provide me with specific details on how EQ2 or WoW deal with combat, then we will talk. Untill then you really have no arguement because you are lacking knowledge in how one half of your arguement works.
You can keep saying it's a fact all you want. That still won't make it true. You can think Eve-Online is the deepest, and most entertaining game out there. For you it is, but as soon as someone else doesn't agree. Then it isn't a fact, just another subjective opinion. So keep spouting all the Eve-Online is the great game non-sense you want. Still doesn't make it better then any other game out there.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.