IM not a pessimist but one problem with having everyone buying and selling one ONE PLACE ONLY, is that its not possible to buy low and sell high. And I tried to do that with the biggest industrial ship (cargo carrier). You make isk the fastest by macro-mining nomatter what, and to me, that is an everquest-clone ratmaze and a fundamental flaw in game mechanics.
So having everyone in one 'market' (one big chatroom), and not sharded isnt exactlly the pinacle of MMO'ness.
Originally posted by Ranma13 I have to agree, EVE's lore is pretty detached from the game, a disappointment when you consider how much it could have livened up the universe. Here's to hoping that in the future, the in-game events team will come up with some decent content for us to see and participate in.
WoW was designed to only hold so many people by design. EVE was designed to be a huge world, hence it works having so many people on one server. However, it's undisputable that having so many players on one server is a technical achievement.
Yup, the NPC game lore is great reading but is poorly reflected in the game. What do I care if the Amarrian emperor was assasinated last week. It doesn't affect me nor the 50k players (at that time) in any way whatsoever. Standings between factions don't change, there's no increase in security forces, the highways remain unaffected, there are no blockades, no threats of war, no economic impacts.
In my opinion, the real game lore, the real "ripples in the pond", the real game legends and stories are those events driven by the players. This is where a single persistant world populated with 25,000 players at the same time really shines. For example, the Southern War between the [5] Alliance and the Xetic Alliance was a massive player event that was conceived, initiated, executed, and concluded by the players. It is a story of ego, agression, bitter infighting, politicial blunders, the breaking of bonds that were once iron-strong, the rise of a new order and the fracture of an old power, and a conclusion that begins with a civil war.
The stories and game lore derived from the Southern War are the stuff that livens up the universe. So in short, EVE's real game lore is found in the players' world, not the NPC world.
Preach on brotha...Or sister... Whatever the case may be.
Originally posted by Havoc11 Keep your bragging to your own forums. 25665 is nothing, EQ2 has more, Wow, probably even AO. No matter what you say, this game is just one big fat screensaver that favors people who have been playing the longest. Don't tell me that "You can be good in one area" crap, the vets will always be better than you. Not to mention every bloody mission is the same, mining boring (duh), combat is very boring too, and your 100 ship battles can't do anything for me either, considering it takes months to reach them.
Yet another prime example of anti-fanboy-ness. You COMPLETELY missed the point. That's 26,000 people on one server. One shard. ...
Ultima Online could have only had 1 shard, if it had 500 zones too. So what. Its a salesman gimmick.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Ultima Online could have only had 1 shard, if it had 500 zones too. So what. Its a salesman gimmick.
Honestly people, if you have no technical knowledge of how computers and software threading works, please don't post. You only reflect your own ignorance.
As I've stated before, if it was such an easy thing to just run one shard, don't you think that A LOT more games would have only 1 shard? The reasoning behind it is simple: it's not so easy to do. Think about it this way: in one instance, you're talking about trying to run 1 game using 50 processors, vs. running 10 copies of the game using 5 processors each. The former is much more harder to run stable because every processor has to be assigned a specific thread to work on and these threads have to all come together to form one coherent system. To make another analogy, it's like trying to build a human body and make sure all the individual organs work together to keep you alive. Other games have shards because it's much easier to split certain tasks between a small group of computers, such as database server, login server, map server, etc... But trying to divide up these tasks between 50+ computers is no small undertaking.
There's a reason why EVE's current cluster will probably rank in the top 500 most powerful computers (measured in MIPS) and the competitors' clusters don't. Think about that before you respond.
Originally posted by Ranma13 There's a reason why EVE's current cluster will probably rank in the top 500 most powerful computers (measured in MIPS) and the competitors' clusters don't. Think about that before you respond.
I just want to repost that because some of the flamers don't read the longer posts.
The rest of the 500 are used by militaries and nuclear reactors.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Ultima Online could have only had 1 shard, if it had 500 zones too. So what. Its a salesman gimmick.
Honestly people, if you have no technical knowledge of how computers and software threading works, please don't post. You only reflect your own ignorance.
As I've stated before, if it was such an easy thing to just run one shard, don't you think that A LOT more games would have only 1 shard? The reasoning behind it is simple: it's not so easy to do. Think about it this way: in one instance, you're talking about trying to run 1 game using 50 processors, vs. running 10 copies of the game using 5 processors each. The former is much more harder to run stable because every processor has to be assigned a specific thread to work on and these threads have to all come together to form one coherent system. To make another analogy, it's like trying to build a human body and make sure all the individual organs work together to keep you alive. Other games have shards because it's much easier to split certain tasks between a small group of computers, such as database server, login server, map server, etc... But trying to divide up these tasks between 50+ computers is no small undertaking.
There's a reason why EVE's current cluster will probably rank in the top 500 most powerful computers (measured in MIPS) and the competitors' clusters don't. Think about that before you respond.
Okay, I thought about it. I disagree.
I don't see how transferring a few people from one zone to another through jump gates and keeping track of the least amount of NPC's in any game along with a few rocks is tough.
Think of all the things their servers don't have to do. How hard is line of sight to figure out in open space? When I played my ship used to fly through the stations. So I don't think they worried about that too much. Do I need to put more examples?
Just think of all the processing that other games have to do that EVE doesn't.
Originally posted by porgie Okay, I thought about it. I disagree. I don't see how transferring a few people from one zone to another through jump gates and keeping track of the least amount of NPC's in any game along with a few rocks is tough. Think of all the things their servers don't have to do. How hard is line of sight to figure out in open space? When I played my ship used to fly through the stations. So I don't think they worried about that too much. Do I need to put more examples? Just think of all the processing that other games have to do that EVE doesn't.
You're a troll.
You've been proven wrong, yet you still seem to argue. I'm sick of arguing and reading arguments w/ the computer illiterate about stuff they don't understand when they are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is really all this thread is about. Those who understand stuff make very valid points, then those who don't say some stuff that comes out their ass and it sparks a response from someone who does know something.
Stop beating a dead horse and accept the fact that you have as much computer knowledge as my grandfather.
him: "MATT! WHY CAN'T I LOG ONTO THIS SITE! YOU FUCKED UP MY COMPUTER!" me: "Because you have to click the log on button." him: "oh."
And you obviously didn't read his very first sentence.
What has line of sight to do with servers? That is a client side operation. Collision might have something to do with the server, but almost no mmo's use collision. Wow's characters etc.
Servers handle:
Database: Items, characters and so on. Movement/position: So that all people see themself and other on the place where they are. The server distributes the positions to the clients. Combat: You hit X for 39 etc -> Server -> X hits you for 39 etc. Interaction between people: Chat, targeting, inspecting and so on.
Infact that is in short all that server do. Graphics, line of sight, sound and all other aspects that don't require information to be sent to other players is NOT handled by servers.
Simple: Servers distribute the information that affects 1 player to another. Servers also store the information.
This means that Eve and Wow etc are basicly the same. BUT Wow doesn't want/need more than 4k players per server, so they haven't made the software/hardware to support more than 4k. While Eve wants to have 25-30k per server, or even more, because they want the population on a single world. This is a very nice and exiting feature. Because theoretical every single Eve player in the world can meet up in 1 zone. While in Wow the community is spread on 200 servers, and they will never be able to meet. Both games have clusters. But Wow has less powerfull clusters, while Eve has a shitload of power. Because the devs made different choices.
Originally posted by porgie Okay, I thought about it. I disagree. I don't see how transferring a few people from one zone to another through jump gates and keeping track of the least amount of NPC's in any game along with a few rocks is tough. Think of all the things their servers don't have to do. How hard is line of sight to figure out in open space? When I played my ship used to fly through the stations. So I don't think they worried about that too much. Do I need to put more examples? Just think of all the processing that other games have to do that EVE doesn't.
You're a troll.
You've been proven wrong, yet you still seem to argue. I'm sick of arguing and reading arguments w/ the computer illiterate about stuff they don't understand when they are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is really all this thread is about. Those who understand stuff make very valid points, then those who don't say some stuff that comes out their ass and it sparks a response from someone who does know something.
Stop beating a dead horse and accept the fact that you have as much computer knowledge as my grandfather.
him: "MATT! WHY CAN'T I LOG ONTO THIS SITE! YOU FUCKED UP MY COMPUTER!" me: "Because you have to click the log on button." him: "oh."
I have a bachelor's in computer science and a minor in statistics.
I write software for an Internet based billing company. I program in C++, ASP, and php. I've been programming for over 10 years now. I got my bachelors after leaving the Navy where I took care of the computer system for the whole Naval Hospital I was stationed at. I know a little bit about programming and server/network maintenance. lol. I know enough that I have a hunch in my back from sitting in a friggin chair 9+ hours a day. I know enough to know it's an overrated crap job that really isn't hard at all. That's why I'm going into teaching. It's an actual challenge. Plus the people smell better.
I don't know why I just felt like I had to write all that to you. But since it's done, haha.. :P
Oh, and a troll? That's not very nice. You should try being nicer. It's more persuasive.
EVE is a very simple game compared to others. There's not that much going on under the hood. It's like an administrative office crunching spreadsheets all day as they fly by some gas giants and floating potatos.
Originally posted by Phoenixs What has line of sight to do with servers? That is a client side operation. Collision might have something to do with the server, but almost no mmo's use collision. Wow's characters etc. Servers handle: Database: Items, characters and so on. Movement/position: So that all people see themself and other on the place where they are. The server distributes the positions to the clients. Combat: You hit X for 39 etc -> Server -> X hits you for 39 etc. Interaction between people: Chat, targeting, inspecting and so on. Infact that is in short all that server do. Graphics, line of sight, sound and all other aspects that don't require information to be sent to other players is NOT handled by servers. Simple: Servers distribute the information that affects 1 player to another. Servers also store the information. This means that Eve and Wow etc are basicly the same. BUT Wow doesn't want/need more than 4k players per server, so they haven't made the software/hardware to support more than 4k. While Eve wants to have 25-30k per server, or even more, because they want the population on a single world. This is a very nice and exiting feature. Because theoretical every single Eve player in the world can meet up in 1 zone. While in Wow the community is spread on 200 servers, and they will never be able to meet. Both games have clusters. But Wow has less powerfull clusters, while Eve has a shitload of power. Because the devs made different choices.
I'm sorry, you're absolutely right about the line of sight. And now that I go back and realize I said that I laugh at myself.
But I don't laugh very hard, because as I said in my post above, I sit in a friggin desk all day staring at a monitor. And right now my head hurts very very very bad. I'm using that as an excuse for my mistake. hehe.
Originally posted by porgie I have a bachelor's in computer science and a minor in statistics. I write software for an Internet based billing company. I program in C++, ASP, and php. I've been programming for over 10 years now. I got my bachelors after leaving the Navy where I took care of the computer system for the whole Naval Hospital I was stationed at. I know a little bit about programming and server/network maintenance. lol. I know enough that I have a hunch in my back from sitting in a friggin chair 9+ hours a day. I know enough to know it's an overrated crap job that really isn't hard at all. That's why I'm going into teaching. It's an actual challenge. Plus the people smell better. I don't know why I just felt like I had to write all that to you. But since it's done, haha.. :POh, and a troll? That's not very nice. You should try being nicer. It's more persuasive. EVE is a very simple game compared to others. There's not that much going on under the hood. It's like an administrative office crunching spreadsheets all day as they fly by some gas giants and floating potatos.
It's simple. Unless you agree that Eve is far more complex than every other mmo ever made on EVERY level, you must be stupid and not understand how computers and servers work.
I have a bachelor's in computer science and a minor in statistics. I write software for an Internet based billing company. I program in C++, ASP, and php. I've been programming for over 10 years now. I got my bachelors after leaving the Navy where I took care of the computer system for the whole Naval Hospital I was stationed at. I know a little bit about programming and server/network maintenance. lol. I know enough that I have a hunch in my back from sitting in a friggin chair 9+ hours a day. I know enough to know it's an overrated crap job that really isn't hard at all. That's why I'm going into teaching. It's an actual challenge. Plus the people smell better. I don't know why I just felt like I had to write all that to you. But since it's done, haha.. :POh, and a troll? That's not very nice. You should try being nicer. It's more persuasive. EVE is a very simple game compared to others. There's not that much going on under the hood. It's like an administrative office crunching spreadsheets all day as they fly by some gas giants and floating potatos.
It's simple. Unless you agree that Eve is far more complex than every other mmo ever made on EVERY level, you must be stupid and not understand how computers and servers work.
Don't worry, Porgie. I guess I'm as stupid as you. I tried EVE out and it didn't seem all that complex to me either. I like your spreadsheets analogy. About 'sums' it up. hehe.
============================= It all seems so stupid It makes me want to give up But why should I give up When it all seems so stupid
As I've said before, porgie, what you say does not reflect that you have any clue as to how server-client programs work. Either you did really bad in school or you're lying, but either way it doesn't matter because you're still clueless.
I don't want to repeat myself again since I already said this point many times over in this thread, but I will say this: a lot of you have this misconception that when you connect to a server, the server handles everything you see on the screen, as if your computer was only a camera that exists in the game world. However, this is completely wrong. Your client is the one that renders everything onto the screen and the server merely passes on information to be displayed by the client. For example, the server will pass on the word 'apple' to your computer and your computer will actually render the apple on-screen. However, the apple exists on the server only as a database entry.
Hence, it doesn't matter how complex the game's graphics are or how detailed the world is. All this is rendered client-side and the server doesn't process it at all. EQ2 uses just as much server processing power per entity as World of Warcraft and DAoC. EVE's required processing power is about the same except when it comes to the database; due to the market and thousands of people checking it at once for multiple entries, the database server gets hit HARD and that's why CCP purchased the RAMSAN 400 solid state hard drive a while back.
Your computer is not a portal to the server world. In fact, if you looked at the server data, it'll look exactly like a database that say, a bank or a company would use.
Originally posted by Phoenixs What has line of sight to do with servers? That is a client side operation. Collision might have something to do with the server, but almost no mmo's use collision. Wow's characters etc. Servers handle: Database: Items, characters and so on. Movement/position: So that all people see themself and other on the place where they are. The server distributes the positions to the clients. Combat: You hit X for 39 etc -> Server -> X hits you for 39 etc. Interaction between people: Chat, targeting, inspecting and so on. Infact that is in short all that server do. Graphics, line of sight, sound and all other aspects that don't require information to be sent to other players is NOT handled by servers. Simple: Servers distribute the information that affects 1 player to another. Servers also store the information. This means that Eve and Wow etc are basicly the same. BUT Wow doesn't want/need more than 4k players per server, so they haven't made the software/hardware to support more than 4k. While Eve wants to have 25-30k per server, or even more, because they want the population on a single world. This is a very nice and exiting feature. Because theoretical every single Eve player in the world can meet up in 1 zone. While in Wow the community is spread on 200 servers, and they will never be able to meet. Both games have clusters. But Wow has less powerfull clusters, while Eve has a shitload of power. Because the devs made different choices.
When one does not know what one is talking of one's mouth is best used for chewing What you just described is a client side system. Many MMO's use server side processing for collision, hit and other detection I could care less if you have a damn PHD in computer science. Writing internet based stats apps is NOT the same as writing a damn MMO which some of us here have done jfyi.
EVE's has almost no collision detection at all, even client side. Compare that to WoW... dare you to try to walk through a mountain in WoW... you can't. In EVE you can fly right through stars, planets, stations, etc. While that may seem small you have to remember that collision detection in many MMO's is handled server side to promote FAIR play. Some games do client side collision (and hit) detection and typically it pisses players off to no end, even if it means you can jam more people in an area w/o lag.
In EVE they get around the problem entirely. There is no collision detection at all. You can target an enemy ship and fire and your rockets/guns/lasers will fire right through anything in the way and hit your target. Even if a big honking battle cruiser is in the way you will STILL hit your target. ***no collision detection***
In a game like PlanetSide, however, if you fire at some guy behind a friendly you will hit your friendly.
Tell me again how technically advanced EVE is please? Yes, the fact that they can cram a whole ton of people on 1 shard is somewhat impressive from a database standpoint but other than that it's no big friggen deal. Other than crunching the Database data it's not all that big a feat.
Again... I'm not saying EVE is a bad game, never did. I'm not saying EVE hasn't made major accomplishments by cramming 26k players into a single shard, they have. But making a huge stink about it like it's the greatest achievment in computer history is just plain silly.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Well grats to the guys at EVE i guess, im sure some of the more Fanboi type people find this absolutly amazing, most other people probably dont care (like myself) i have to admit i do get a bit tried of seeing these posts about how EVE has got another 2000, 3000 or however many people playing it, alot of us really dont care and the guys who do probably read it on the EVE official site anyway, so posting it here just causes flame wars and makes the EVE community look like they are bragging.
Also what is it with EVE fanbois, iv noticed they seem to act kind of intellectual, its as if they think they are clever because they play a pretty in depth game (just boaring imho) and they seem to think they have more say in a matter than anyone else.
These are all just my thoughts of course, im sure there are alot of great EVE players but after reading this thread and many other this is just what i have noticed.
But whatever, grats to CCP, no doubt you will feed your fanbois the next big server population increase so that they can spam how the community has grown by another 2000 people on every forum in existence for you.
Garrik
________________________________
"once upon a midnight dreary, while i porn surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of 'hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, "give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404."
Actually, all MMO's use client-side collision detection. The reason why you can't run up that mountain is because the client doesn't let you, not because the server doesn't let you. The server only does coordinate checking to make sure that, say, you don't go from one side of the world to the other in 1 second.
EVE does have a rudimentary collision detection system, but the ability to fly through stars and stations is more of a gameplay issue. It would really suck flying your ship into a planet and losing it, wouldn't you agree? What about firing your guns and having it hit another player's ship that got caught in between and CONCORD bears down on you with guns blazing?
Even Planetside uses client-side collision detection. The reason why you can't walk through your teammates is because the server tells the client that someone is standing in the way and the client doesn't allow you to walk through them. As for shooting at enemies, that has nothing to do with collision detection.
EVE holding so many people on one server IS an accomplishment. Name one MMO that can hold even half that many players without having serious issues, whether it be lag or just the servers crashing due to the load. As I've said time and time again, if it were such an easy thing to do, we would see a lot more MMO's implementing it. If the additional processing power that CCP had to buy to keep the servers running stable isn't testament to how difficult this task is, then I don't know what else I can say because you're just being ignorant.
Well done. This game is finally getting the praise it deserves.
EVE is a most curious and interesting game. A complex behemoth of PvP,social interaction and ship-making. A more mature community and where people are judged by skill,not gear.
Once WOW's time has expired,this will be the game where I can relax after work and chill with some mature people if needs be. Where I have no rush to do anything.
Best advice to any newcomers would be; trial the game for 14-days,and if you can see yourself playing this after your main game,or indeed if this is your first game to try,join in straight away or make this the game to play after your main game is wrapped up.
Show me another game where maturity excels in the entire game,even in piracy,and I'll show you a flying cow.
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Phoenixs What has line of sight to do with servers? That is a client side operation. Collision might have something to do with the server, but almost no mmo's use collision. Wow's characters etc. Servers handle: Database: Items, characters and so on.Movement/position: So that all people see themself and other on the place where they are. The server distributes the positions to the clients.Combat: You hit X for 39 etc -> Server -> X hits you for 39 etc.Interaction between people: Chat, targeting, inspecting and so on. Infact that is in short all that server do. Graphics, line of sight, sound and all other aspects that don't require information to be sent to other players is NOT handled by servers. Simple: Servers distribute the information that affects 1 player to another. Servers also store the information. This means that Eve and Wow etc are basicly the same. BUT Wow doesn't want/need more than 4k players per server, so they haven't made the software/hardware to support more than 4k. While Eve wants to have 25-30k per server, or even more, because they want the population on a single world. This is a very nice and exiting feature. Because theoretical every single Eve player in the world can meet up in 1 zone. While in Wow the community is spread on 200 servers, and they will never be able to meet. Both games have clusters. But Wow has less powerfull clusters, while Eve has a shitload of power. Because the devs made different choices. When one does not know what one is talking of one's mouth is best used for chewing What you just described is a client side system. Many MMO's use server side processing for collision, hit and other detection I could care less if you have a damn PHD in computer science. Writing internet based stats apps is NOT the same as writing a damn MMO which some of us here have done jfyi. EVE's has almost no collision detection at all, even client side. Compare that to WoW... dare you to try to walk through a mountain in WoW... you can't. In EVE you can fly right through stars, planets, stations, etc. While that may seem small you have to remember that collision detection in many MMO's is handled server side to promote FAIR play. Some games do client side collision (and hit) detection and typically it pisses players off to no end, even if it means you can jam more people in an area w/o lag. In EVE they get around the problem entirely. There is no collision detection at all. You can target an enemy ship and fire and your rockets/guns/lasers will fire right through anything in the way and hit your target. Even if a big honking battle cruiser is in the way you will STILL hit your target. ***no collision detection*** In a game like PlanetSide, however, if you fire at some guy behind a friendly you will hit your friendly. Tell me again how technically advanced EVE is please? Yes, the fact that they can cram a whole ton of people on 1 shard is somewhat impressive from a database standpoint but other than that it's no big friggen deal. Other than crunching the Database data it's not all that big a feat. Again... I'm not saying EVE is a bad game, never did. I'm not saying EVE hasn't made major accomplishments by cramming 26k players into a single shard, they have. But making a huge stink about it like it's the greatest achievment in computer history is just plain silly.
Did you actually read all that I wrote? I said that Eve isn't the greatest achievement in computer history. I wrote that Wow and Eve are infact almost the same. Eve has just bigger clusters, because the developer wanted bigger clusters. While Wow has the same technology it doesn't have clusters that poweful because Blizzard didn't want that big clusters. If Blizzard wanted servers like Eve they would have made that. I don't believe for 1 second that a small Islandic company surpasses a multi billion company like Blizzard. It's just different priorities and games.
No collision, is not a serverside operation. It's both. You do the collision client side. The client sends it's coordinates to the server. When the you have collision detection on the client, the client will never send coordinates that are "inside" a mountain etc. But you will have a system on the server that checks the information the client sends. I didn't say anything about Eve and if it has collision or not. The only thing I was talking about is what servers do and not do. But for the record Eve has collision between ships/stations etc. The only time you go through planets, other ships, objects and stations is when you are warping. And when you shoot projectiles. Collision on projectiles and spells are very heavy operations. Most games don't have it. Fps games have it, because that is a VERY important aspect of a Fps. It's not that important in a tactical space game, or in a classic fantasy mmo like Wow.
Once again I must say, if it was such an easy thing to do, more companies would have done it already. EVE was designed around one shard. Yes they are a small company compared to some of the others out there, but that doesn't mean it's any easier to implement a one-shard game. Most game companies don't do it because of the hassle involved; it's much easier to maintain several shards of lesser complexity than one big one. I have no doubt that Blizzard or SOE can implement a one-shard system. However, the additional work involved in doing something like that and having to maintain it is not worth it.
EVE's cluster will probably rank in the Top 500 for a good reason. What, do you really think that they spent all that money buying a new cluster for absolutely no reason? This fact alone should be testament to the complexity of running a one-shard cluster with 25,000+ players.
All those who are saying "it's not that great of an achievement because any company could do it" is just being ignorant. Of course anything is POSSIBLE, but the difference is that CCP has actually DONE it. They have world records for a reason, anyone could get into the Guiness but it doesn't mean anything if you haven't done it.
I don't care if you like EVE or not. I'm not trying to convince you that EVE is a good game. What I am trying to point out though is that being able to hold so many players on one server without lag is a technical achievement in MMORPGs. If you're so ignorant as to blatantly deny that fact just because you don't like EVE, you're beyond reproach.
Originally posted by Phoenixs Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Phoenixs What has line of sight to do with servers? That is a client side operation. Collision might have something to do with the server, but almost no mmo's use collision. Wow's characters etc. Servers handle: Database: Items, characters and so on.Movement/position: So that all people see themself and other on the place where they are. The server distributes the positions to the clients.Combat: You hit X for 39 etc -> Server -> X hits you for 39 etc.Interaction between people: Chat, targeting, inspecting and so on. Infact that is in short all that server do. Graphics, line of sight, sound and all other aspects that don't require information to be sent to other players is NOT handled by servers. Simple: Servers distribute the information that affects 1 player to another. Servers also store the information. This means that Eve and Wow etc are basicly the same. BUT Wow doesn't want/need more than 4k players per server, so they haven't made the software/hardware to support more than 4k. While Eve wants to have 25-30k per server, or even more, because they want the population on a single world. This is a very nice and exiting feature. Because theoretical every single Eve player in the world can meet up in 1 zone. While in Wow the community is spread on 200 servers, and they will never be able to meet. Both games have clusters. But Wow has less powerfull clusters, while Eve has a shitload of power. Because the devs made different choices. When one does not know what one is talking of one's mouth is best used for chewing What you just described is a client side system. Many MMO's use server side processing for collision, hit and other detection I could care less if you have a damn PHD in computer science. Writing internet based stats apps is NOT the same as writing a damn MMO which some of us here have done jfyi. EVE's has almost no collision detection at all, even client side. Compare that to WoW... dare you to try to walk through a mountain in WoW... you can't. In EVE you can fly right through stars, planets, stations, etc. While that may seem small you have to remember that collision detection in many MMO's is handled server side to promote FAIR play. Some games do client side collision (and hit) detection and typically it pisses players off to no end, even if it means you can jam more people in an area w/o lag. In EVE they get around the problem entirely. There is no collision detection at all. You can target an enemy ship and fire and your rockets/guns/lasers will fire right through anything in the way and hit your target. Even if a big honking battle cruiser is in the way you will STILL hit your target. ***no collision detection*** In a game like PlanetSide, however, if you fire at some guy behind a friendly you will hit your friendly. Tell me again how technically advanced EVE is please? Yes, the fact that they can cram a whole ton of people on 1 shard is somewhat impressive from a database standpoint but other than that it's no big friggen deal. Other than crunching the Database data it's not all that big a feat. Again... I'm not saying EVE is a bad game, never did. I'm not saying EVE hasn't made major accomplishments by cramming 26k players into a single shard, they have. But making a huge stink about it like it's the greatest achievment in computer history is just plain silly.
Did you actually read all that I wrote? I said that Eve isn't the greatest achievement in computer history. I wrote that Wow and Eve are infact almost the same. Eve has just bigger clusters, because the developer wanted bigger clusters. While Wow has the same technology it doesn't have clusters that poweful because Blizzard didn't want that big clusters. If Blizzard wanted servers like Eve they would have made that. I don't believe for 1 second that a small Islandic company surpasses a multi billion company like Blizzard. It's just different priorities and games.
No collision, is not a serverside operation. It's both. You do the collision client side. The client sends it's coordinates to the server. When the you have collision detection on the client, the client will never send coordinates that are "inside" a mountain etc. But you will have a system on the server that checks the information the client sends. I didn't say anything about Eve and if it has collision or not. The only thing I was talking about is what servers do and not do. But for the record Eve has collision between ships/stations etc. The only time you go through planets, other ships, objects and stations is when you are warping. And when you shoot projectiles. Collision on projectiles and spells are very heavy operations. Most games don't have it. Fps games have it, because that is a VERY important aspect of a Fps. It's not that important in a tactical space game, or in a classic fantasy mmo like Wow.
There's no advanced Collision in EVE. There might be areas where you can fly into, but it doesn't really calculate collision. Specially not for spells and projectiles. It merely looks that way, but see it this way:
You have a missile. It fly X kms a sec. The enemy is Y Km away, and moves with Z speed. You press, and the just calculates when it hits. Imagine RTS games. You don't have collision detecting when your archers hail their arrows upon thy neighbour.
Originally posted by Ranma13 Once again I must say, if it was such an easy thing to do, more companies would have done it already. EVE was designed around one shard. Yes they are a small company compared to some of the others out there, but that doesn't mean it's any easier to implement a one-shard game. Most game companies don't do it because of the hassle involved; it's much easier to maintain several shards of lesser complexity than one big one. I have no doubt that Blizzard or SOE can implement a one-shard system. However, the additional work involved in doing something like that and having to maintain it is not worth it.EVE's cluster will probably rank in the Top 500 for a good reason. What, do you really think that they spent all that money buying a new cluster for absolutely no reason? This fact alone should be testament to the complexity of running a one-shard cluster with 25,000+ players.All those who are saying "it's not that great of an achievement because any company could do it" is just being ignorant. Of course anything is POSSIBLE, but the difference is that CCP has actually DONE it. They have world records for a reason, anyone could get into the Guiness but it doesn't mean anything if you haven't done it.I don't care if you like EVE or not. I'm not trying to convince you that EVE is a good game. What I am trying to point out though is that being able to hold so many players on one server without lag is a technical achievement in MMORPGs. If you're so ignorant as to blatantly deny that fact just because you don't like EVE, you're beyond reproach.
Ranma it's not 1 server, it's multiple servers communicating with one another. It's not even technicaly a "cluster" so much as a well integrated computer network. As I said, I give them props for pulling it off thus far but, frankly, managing the database for 25,000 concurrent users is impressive but not so much that I'm going to fall down drooling about it. Yes, from a technical standpoint what EVE has accomplished is impressive. But it does NOT make the game any more of an MMO than other MMO's out there, which was the only reason I even chimed in on this thread was Copeland stating that idiocy.
Yes, it's a relatively impressive feat to be able to manage 25,000 players concurrently in 1 shard. (NOT 1 server). Yes it's not something normally done because it IS more complex than multiple shards (It's ALSO much more expensive, which makes me give props to CCP for not going for the 'maximum profit' model.) But the reason other MMO companies haven't done what CCP did is because it's so expensive to maintain that model and much more difficult to scale it upwards. As witnessed by the fact that at each major growth point CCP has had to make some pretty herculean efforts to relieve pressures on the systems. WoW or EQ2 or other games just add more servers. CCP has to totally rework their code and upgrade hardware.
Which is better? CCP's method is better, it's just more labor and time and cost intensive. A lot of corps don't want to deal with that.
Which, by the way, is a prime example of why Windows is the king of the PC today instead of Linux. Anyone with half a brain will tell you that Linux is more stable, more powerful, chews up fewer resources but it's also about 10x more difficult to maintain it, upgrade it, extend it's functions, etc. So the vast majority of companies and people use Windows which, while not as good, is much easier to deal with.
That's my only point. It's like the age old Beta / VHS arguement. Which was better? BETA... which is around today though, and still surviving despite DVD's I might add.
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And in the end, if you want to go anywhere you got to go through a gate-portal, and in the end PvP degrades into gate camping. Like spawn camping in Quake.
Some of you will hate it, but this is for EVE fans,and i know they will love it...
EVE GOT A NEWER RECORD 25941 simultanious players.
An old game growing,i am hapy 4 it
Its growing raly fast,EVE have most of the time more players online than DAoC(DAOC have 175k subs),i am just wondering wen CCP will anounce 150k-200k subs
Comments
IM not a pessimist but one problem with having everyone buying and selling one ONE PLACE ONLY, is that its not possible to buy low and sell high. And I tried to do that with the biggest industrial ship (cargo carrier). You make isk the fastest by macro-mining nomatter what, and to me, that is an everquest-clone ratmaze and a fundamental flaw in game mechanics.
So having everyone in one 'market' (one big chatroom), and not sharded isnt exactlly the pinacle of MMO'ness.
Yup, the NPC game lore is great reading but is poorly reflected in the game. What do I care if the Amarrian emperor was assasinated last week. It doesn't affect me nor the 50k players (at that time) in any way whatsoever. Standings between factions don't change, there's no increase in security forces, the highways remain unaffected, there are no blockades, no threats of war, no economic impacts.
In my opinion, the real game lore, the real "ripples in the pond", the real game legends and stories are those events driven by the players. This is where a single persistant world populated with 25,000 players at the same time really shines. For example, the Southern War between the [5] Alliance and the Xetic Alliance was a massive player event that was conceived, initiated, executed, and concluded by the players. It is a story of ego, agression, bitter infighting, politicial blunders, the breaking of bonds that were once iron-strong, the rise of a new order and the fracture of an old power, and a conclusion that begins with a civil war.
The stories and game lore derived from the Southern War are the stuff that livens up the universe. So in short, EVE's real game lore is found in the players' world, not the NPC world.
Preach on brotha...Or sister... Whatever the case may be.
Yet another prime example of anti-fanboy-ness. You COMPLETELY missed the point. That's 26,000 people on one server. One shard. ...
Ultima Online could have only had 1 shard, if it had 500 zones too. So what. Its a salesman gimmick.
Honestly people, if you have no technical knowledge of how computers and software threading works, please don't post. You only reflect your own ignorance.
As I've stated before, if it was such an easy thing to just run one shard, don't you think that A LOT more games would have only 1 shard? The reasoning behind it is simple: it's not so easy to do. Think about it this way: in one instance, you're talking about trying to run 1 game using 50 processors, vs. running 10 copies of the game using 5 processors each. The former is much more harder to run stable because every processor has to be assigned a specific thread to work on and these threads have to all come together to form one coherent system. To make another analogy, it's like trying to build a human body and make sure all the individual organs work together to keep you alive. Other games have shards because it's much easier to split certain tasks between a small group of computers, such as database server, login server, map server, etc... But trying to divide up these tasks between 50+ computers is no small undertaking.
There's a reason why EVE's current cluster will probably rank in the top 500 most powerful computers (measured in MIPS) and the competitors' clusters don't. Think about that before you respond.
I just want to repost that because some of the flamers don't read the longer posts.
The rest of the 500 are used by militaries and nuclear reactors.
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Honestly people, if you have no technical knowledge of how computers and software threading works, please don't post. You only reflect your own ignorance.
As I've stated before, if it was such an easy thing to just run one shard, don't you think that A LOT more games would have only 1 shard? The reasoning behind it is simple: it's not so easy to do. Think about it this way: in one instance, you're talking about trying to run 1 game using 50 processors, vs. running 10 copies of the game using 5 processors each. The former is much more harder to run stable because every processor has to be assigned a specific thread to work on and these threads have to all come together to form one coherent system. To make another analogy, it's like trying to build a human body and make sure all the individual organs work together to keep you alive. Other games have shards because it's much easier to split certain tasks between a small group of computers, such as database server, login server, map server, etc... But trying to divide up these tasks between 50+ computers is no small undertaking.
There's a reason why EVE's current cluster will probably rank in the top 500 most powerful computers (measured in MIPS) and the competitors' clusters don't. Think about that before you respond.
Okay, I thought about it. I disagree.
I don't see how transferring a few people from one zone to another through jump gates and keeping track of the least amount of NPC's in any game along with a few rocks is tough.
Think of all the things their servers don't have to do. How hard is line of sight to figure out in open space? When I played my ship used to fly through the stations. So I don't think they worried about that too much. Do I need to put more examples?
Just think of all the processing that other games have to do that EVE doesn't.
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You're a troll.
You've been proven wrong, yet you still seem to argue. I'm sick of arguing and reading arguments w/ the computer illiterate about stuff they don't understand when they are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is really all this thread is about. Those who understand stuff make very valid points, then those who don't say some stuff that comes out their ass and it sparks a response from someone who does know something.
Stop beating a dead horse and accept the fact that you have as much computer knowledge as my grandfather.
him: "MATT! WHY CAN'T I LOG ONTO THIS SITE! YOU FUCKED UP MY COMPUTER!"
me: "Because you have to click the log on button."
him: "oh."
And you obviously didn't read his very first sentence.
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What has line of sight to do with servers? That is a client side operation. Collision might have something to do with the server, but almost no mmo's use collision. Wow's characters etc.
Servers handle:
Database: Items, characters and so on.
Movement/position: So that all people see themself and other on the place where they are. The server distributes the positions to the clients.
Combat: You hit X for 39 etc -> Server -> X hits you for 39 etc.
Interaction between people: Chat, targeting, inspecting and so on.
Infact that is in short all that server do. Graphics, line of sight, sound and all other aspects that don't require information to be sent to other players is NOT handled by servers.
Simple: Servers distribute the information that affects 1 player to another. Servers also store the information.
This means that Eve and Wow etc are basicly the same. BUT Wow doesn't want/need more than 4k players per server, so they haven't made the software/hardware to support more than 4k. While Eve wants to have 25-30k per server, or even more, because they want the population on a single world. This is a very nice and exiting feature. Because theoretical every single Eve player in the world can meet up in 1 zone. While in Wow the community is spread on 200 servers, and they will never be able to meet. Both games have clusters. But Wow has less powerfull clusters, while Eve has a shitload of power. Because the devs made different choices.
You're a troll.
You've been proven wrong, yet you still seem to argue. I'm sick of arguing and reading arguments w/ the computer illiterate about stuff they don't understand when they are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is really all this thread is about. Those who understand stuff make very valid points, then those who don't say some stuff that comes out their ass and it sparks a response from someone who does know something.
Stop beating a dead horse and accept the fact that you have as much computer knowledge as my grandfather.
him: "MATT! WHY CAN'T I LOG ONTO THIS SITE! YOU FUCKED UP MY COMPUTER!"
me: "Because you have to click the log on button."
him: "oh."
I have a bachelor's in computer science and a minor in statistics.
I write software for an Internet based billing company. I program in C++, ASP, and php. I've been programming for over 10 years now. I got my bachelors after leaving the Navy where I took care of the computer system for the whole Naval Hospital I was stationed at. I know a little bit about programming and server/network maintenance. lol. I know enough that I have a hunch in my back from sitting in a friggin chair 9+ hours a day. I know enough to know it's an overrated crap job that really isn't hard at all. That's why I'm going into teaching. It's an actual challenge. Plus the people smell better.
I don't know why I just felt like I had to write all that to you. But since it's done, haha.. :P
Oh, and a troll? That's not very nice. You should try being nicer. It's more persuasive.
EVE is a very simple game compared to others. There's not that much going on under the hood. It's like an administrative office crunching spreadsheets all day as they fly by some gas giants and floating potatos.
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I'm sorry, you're absolutely right about the line of sight. And now that I go back and realize I said that I laugh at myself.
But I don't laugh very hard, because as I said in my post above, I sit in a friggin desk all day staring at a monitor. And right now my head hurts very very very bad. I'm using that as an excuse for my mistake. hehe.
I'm so glad it's Friday.
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</OBAMA>
Oh, you're that guy.
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Oh, you're that guy.
Yeah, I guess. I'm not sure what "that guy" means. But I agree with the crazy icon. So, okay.
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</OBAMA>
It's simple. Unless you agree that Eve is far more complex than every other mmo ever made on EVERY level, you must be stupid and not understand how computers and servers work.
It's simple. Unless you agree that Eve is far more complex than every other mmo ever made on EVERY level, you must be stupid and not understand how computers and servers work.
Don't worry, Porgie. I guess I'm as stupid as you. I tried EVE out and it didn't seem all that complex to me either. I like your spreadsheets analogy. About 'sums' it up. hehe.
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It all seems so stupid
It makes me want to give up
But why should I give up
When it all seems so stupid
As I've said before, porgie, what you say does not reflect that you have any clue as to how server-client programs work. Either you did really bad in school or you're lying, but either way it doesn't matter because you're still clueless.
I don't want to repeat myself again since I already said this point many times over in this thread, but I will say this: a lot of you have this misconception that when you connect to a server, the server handles everything you see on the screen, as if your computer was only a camera that exists in the game world. However, this is completely wrong. Your client is the one that renders everything onto the screen and the server merely passes on information to be displayed by the client. For example, the server will pass on the word 'apple' to your computer and your computer will actually render the apple on-screen. However, the apple exists on the server only as a database entry.
Hence, it doesn't matter how complex the game's graphics are or how detailed the world is. All this is rendered client-side and the server doesn't process it at all. EQ2 uses just as much server processing power per entity as World of Warcraft and DAoC. EVE's required processing power is about the same except when it comes to the database; due to the market and thousands of people checking it at once for multiple entries, the database server gets hit HARD and that's why CCP purchased the RAMSAN 400 solid state hard drive a while back.
Your computer is not a portal to the server world. In fact, if you looked at the server data, it'll look exactly like a database that say, a bank or a company would use.
When one does not know what one is talking of one's mouth is best used for chewing
What you just described is a client side system. Many MMO's use server side processing for collision, hit and other detection 
I could care less if you have a damn PHD in computer science. Writing internet based stats apps is NOT the same as writing a damn MMO which some of us here have done jfyi.
EVE's has almost no collision detection at all, even client side. Compare that to WoW... dare you to try to walk through a mountain in WoW... you can't. In EVE you can fly right through stars, planets, stations, etc. While that may seem small you have to remember that collision detection in many MMO's is handled server side to promote FAIR play. Some games do client side collision (and hit) detection and typically it pisses players off to no end, even if it means you can jam more people in an area w/o lag.
In EVE they get around the problem entirely. There is no collision detection at all. You can target an enemy ship and fire and your rockets/guns/lasers will fire right through anything in the way and hit your target. Even if a big honking battle cruiser is in the way you will STILL hit your target. ***no collision detection***
In a game like PlanetSide, however, if you fire at some guy behind a friendly you will hit your friendly.
Tell me again how technically advanced EVE is please? Yes, the fact that they can cram a whole ton of people on 1 shard is somewhat impressive from a database standpoint but other than that it's no big friggen deal. Other than crunching the Database data it's not all that big a feat.
Again... I'm not saying EVE is a bad game, never did. I'm not saying EVE hasn't made major accomplishments by cramming 26k players into a single shard, they have. But making a huge stink about it like it's the greatest achievment in computer history is just plain silly.
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Well grats to the guys at EVE i guess, im sure some of the more Fanboi type people find this absolutly amazing, most other people probably dont care (like myself) i have to admit i do get a bit tried of seeing these posts about how EVE has got another 2000, 3000 or however many people playing it, alot of us really dont care and the guys who do probably read it on the EVE official site anyway, so posting it here just causes flame wars and makes the EVE community look like they are bragging.
Also what is it with EVE fanbois, iv noticed they seem to act kind of intellectual, its as if they think they are clever because they play a pretty in depth game (just boaring imho) and they seem to think they have more say in a matter than anyone else.
These are all just my thoughts of course, im sure there are alot of great EVE players but after reading this thread and many other this is just what i have noticed.
But whatever, grats to CCP, no doubt you will feed your fanbois the next big server population increase so that they can spam how the community has grown by another 2000 people on every forum in existence for you.
Garrik
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"once upon a midnight dreary, while i porn surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of 'hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, "give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404."
Actually, all MMO's use client-side collision detection. The reason why you can't run up that mountain is because the client doesn't let you, not because the server doesn't let you. The server only does coordinate checking to make sure that, say, you don't go from one side of the world to the other in 1 second.
EVE does have a rudimentary collision detection system, but the ability to fly through stars and stations is more of a gameplay issue. It would really suck flying your ship into a planet and losing it, wouldn't you agree? What about firing your guns and having it hit another player's ship that got caught in between and CONCORD bears down on you with guns blazing?
Even Planetside uses client-side collision detection. The reason why you can't walk through your teammates is because the server tells the client that someone is standing in the way and the client doesn't allow you to walk through them. As for shooting at enemies, that has nothing to do with collision detection.
EVE holding so many people on one server IS an accomplishment. Name one MMO that can hold even half that many players without having serious issues, whether it be lag or just the servers crashing due to the load. As I've said time and time again, if it were such an easy thing to do, we would see a lot more MMO's implementing it. If the additional processing power that CCP had to buy to keep the servers running stable isn't testament to how difficult this task is, then I don't know what else I can say because you're just being ignorant.
Well done. This game is finally getting the praise it deserves.
EVE is a most curious and interesting game. A complex behemoth of PvP,social interaction and ship-making. A more mature community and where people are judged by skill,not gear.
Once WOW's time has expired,this will be the game where I can relax after work and chill with some mature people if needs be. Where I have no rush to do anything.
Best advice to any newcomers would be; trial the game for 14-days,and if you can see yourself playing this after your main game,or indeed if this is your first game to try,join in straight away or make this the game to play after your main game is wrapped up.
Show me another game where maturity excels in the entire game,even in piracy,and I'll show you a flying cow.
Did you actually read all that I wrote? I said that Eve isn't the greatest achievement in computer history. I wrote that Wow and Eve are infact almost the same. Eve has just bigger clusters, because the developer wanted bigger clusters. While Wow has the same technology it doesn't have clusters that poweful because Blizzard didn't want that big clusters. If Blizzard wanted servers like Eve they would have made that. I don't believe for 1 second that a small Islandic company surpasses a multi billion company like Blizzard. It's just different priorities and games.
No collision, is not a serverside operation. It's both. You do the collision client side. The client sends it's coordinates to the server. When the you have collision detection on the client, the client will never send coordinates that are "inside" a mountain etc. But you will have a system on the server that checks the information the client sends.
Eve has collision between ships/stations etc. The only time you go through planets, other ships, objects and stations is when you are warping. And when you shoot projectiles. Collision on projectiles and spells are very heavy operations. Most games don't have it. Fps games have it, because that is a VERY important aspect of a Fps. It's not that important in a tactical space game, or in a classic fantasy mmo like Wow.
I didn't say anything about Eve and if it has collision or not. The only thing I was talking about is what servers do and not do. But for the record
Once again I must say, if it was such an easy thing to do, more companies would have done it already. EVE was designed around one shard. Yes they are a small company compared to some of the others out there, but that doesn't mean it's any easier to implement a one-shard game. Most game companies don't do it because of the hassle involved; it's much easier to maintain several shards of lesser complexity than one big one. I have no doubt that Blizzard or SOE can implement a one-shard system. However, the additional work involved in doing something like that and having to maintain it is not worth it.
EVE's cluster will probably rank in the Top 500 for a good reason. What, do you really think that they spent all that money buying a new cluster for absolutely no reason? This fact alone should be testament to the complexity of running a one-shard cluster with 25,000+ players.
All those who are saying "it's not that great of an achievement because any company could do it" is just being ignorant. Of course anything is POSSIBLE, but the difference is that CCP has actually DONE it. They have world records for a reason, anyone could get into the Guiness but it doesn't mean anything if you haven't done it.
I don't care if you like EVE or not. I'm not trying to convince you that EVE is a good game. What I am trying to point out though is that being able to hold so many players on one server without lag is a technical achievement in MMORPGs. If you're so ignorant as to blatantly deny that fact just because you don't like EVE, you're beyond reproach.
Did you actually read all that I wrote? I said that Eve isn't the greatest achievement in computer history. I wrote that Wow and Eve are infact almost the same. Eve has just bigger clusters, because the developer wanted bigger clusters. While Wow has the same technology it doesn't have clusters that poweful because Blizzard didn't want that big clusters. If Blizzard wanted servers like Eve they would have made that. I don't believe for 1 second that a small Islandic company surpasses a multi billion company like Blizzard. It's just different priorities and games.
No collision, is not a serverside operation. It's both. You do the collision client side. The client sends it's coordinates to the server. When the you have collision detection on the client, the client will never send coordinates that are "inside" a mountain etc. But you will have a system on the server that checks the information the client sends.
Eve has collision between ships/stations etc. The only time you go through planets, other ships, objects and stations is when you are warping. And when you shoot projectiles. Collision on projectiles and spells are very heavy operations. Most games don't have it. Fps games have it, because that is a VERY important aspect of a Fps. It's not that important in a tactical space game, or in a classic fantasy mmo like Wow.
I didn't say anything about Eve and if it has collision or not. The only thing I was talking about is what servers do and not do. But for the record
There's no advanced Collision in EVE. There might be areas where you can fly into, but it doesn't really calculate collision. Specially not for spells and projectiles. It merely looks that way, but see it this way:
You have a missile. It fly X kms a sec. The enemy is Y Km away, and moves with Z speed. You press, and the just calculates when it hits. Imagine RTS games. You don't have collision detecting when your archers hail their arrows upon thy neighbour.
Ranma it's not 1 server, it's multiple servers communicating with one another. It's not even technicaly a "cluster" so much as a well integrated computer network. As I said, I give them props for pulling it off thus far but, frankly, managing the database for 25,000 concurrent users is impressive but not so much that I'm going to fall down drooling about it. Yes, from a technical standpoint what EVE has accomplished is impressive. But it does NOT make the game any more of an MMO than other MMO's out there, which was the only reason I even chimed in on this thread was Copeland stating that idiocy.
Yes, it's a relatively impressive feat to be able to manage 25,000 players concurrently in 1 shard. (NOT 1 server). Yes it's not something normally done because it IS more complex than multiple shards (It's ALSO much more expensive, which makes me give props to CCP for not going for the 'maximum profit' model.) But the reason other MMO companies haven't done what CCP did is because it's so expensive to maintain that model and much more difficult to scale it upwards. As witnessed by the fact that at each major growth point CCP has had to make some pretty herculean efforts to relieve pressures on the systems. WoW or EQ2 or other games just add more servers. CCP has to totally rework their code and upgrade hardware.
Which is better? CCP's method is better, it's just more labor and time and cost intensive. A lot of corps don't want to deal with that.
Which, by the way, is a prime example of why Windows is the king of the PC today instead of Linux.
Anyone with half a brain will tell you that Linux is more stable, more powerful, chews up fewer resources but it's also about 10x more difficult to maintain it, upgrade it, extend it's functions, etc. So the vast majority of companies and people use Windows which, while not as good, is much easier to deal with.
That's my only point. It's like the age old Beta / VHS arguement. Which was better? BETA... which is around today though, and still surviving despite DVD's I might add.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Some of you will hate it, but this is for EVE fans,and i know they will love it...
EVE GOT A NEWER RECORD 25941 simultanious players.
An old game growing,i am hapy 4 it
Its growing raly fast,EVE have most of the time more players online than DAoC(DAOC have 175k subs),i am just wondering wen CCP will anounce 150k-200k subs