You'll find points often regurgitated by the kooks directly attacked and laid to waste. For instance, the blatant misrepresentation of the seismographs. The blatant use of pictures from only certains angles of the buildings. And you'll also find out that....ready for this? Blatanly being wrong about what type of engines the plane should have had that struck the pentagon. There are friggin pictures of lots of wreckage from the pentagon strike by the way....
You'll find out that some of his sources, AREN'T proffesionals in the events they're trying to comment on! Not one structural engineer is cited to back up his claim that the building fell from planted bombs. Not one...
Originally posted by AlexAmore Its a fact that both Bush and Kerry are Skull and bones members and they are both cousins; in others words they are both related. Whats that mean to American voters? They had no choice.
Bush actually looks kind of cute on that picture lol.
Anyway, could you explain that Skull and Bones organization a little more in details? I heard that one before about Bush, and I thought it was a joke. Well I mean the name of the organization sounded like a joke. Though I know such crganization does exist. After all, those real bosses of this country will do anything to secrure their positions of power and wealth.
Originally posted by AlexAmore Its a fact that both Bush and Kerry are Skull and bones members and they are both cousins; in others words they are both related. Whats that mean to American voters? They had no choice.
Bush actually looks kind of cute on that picture lol.
Anyway, could you explain that Skull and Bones organization a little more in details? I heard that one before about Bush, and I thought it was a joke. Well I mean the name of the organization sounded like a joke. Though I know such crganization does exist. After all, those real bosses of this country will do anything to secrure their positions of power and wealth.
Wasn't that the "secret society" that they were in when they went to college? it was yale or harvard i think...
Here's wikipedia talking about Skull and Bones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_bones. Wiki is a good start but you can delve a lot deeper than that, but its a good basis as always.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore I don't really create these topics. I just respond because thats the point of a forum. I create my own opinions but of course I create them based off of information like everyone else in the world. Apparently you take whatever the government says or media says and render it true. I'm not positive where you stand because you're mostly attacking me so i'll just say your on the governments side. You seem very sensitive to these topics. I wonder why. I don't see whats wrong the facts I present. They come from pretty good sources (police, firemen, seismographs, news articles, TV,...ect).Where do you get your facts? 9/11 Commission report?
Sometimes I wonder if you're Jeb Bush trying to discredit everything I say. I mean you have no "User Info" about yourself...so it does look a little wierd *Cues the Twilight Zone theme*
Have you read the responses I made to these exact same topics over the last 4-5 months? You have been in the same threads responding to what I had posted, so I assumed you could remember. Sadly we have some borked up search and I cannot link them for you. I am not going to rehash the same argument with you for the millionth time just because you have a short memory. I am not sensitive to the subject, I am sensitive to people who take only 1 side as gospel. If you could remember my previous posts, you would know that I do not believe that either story adds up. Previously I cited several physics, engineering, and military sources that contradict both stories. Not only that, I have previously cited errors in the logic used for each side to come to the "facts" they state as "truth," which merely provides openings for alternatives that need to be investigated.
Let me just point out 2 things that I saw tonight on Real Time with Bill Maher, a well documented left-winger,about the conspiracy theories, with some added info by me. In order for the conspiracy theory to be true, you have to have 2 things come together:
The US government would have to be competent enough to pull off simultaneously:
3 guided missile (a plane used as a suicide missile counts) attacks on US soil without any verification that the government was solely responsible.
Multi-agency cooperation in order to prepare for the attacks.
Multi-agency cooperation in order to facilitate the coverup of US involvement.
The US government would have to be able to keep all of the above secret.
I submit that an intelligence and military community that cannot accurately identify and hit targets during the "shock and awe" campaign, is not capable of number 1 above. I also submit that a government that cannot keep a couple of hookers from telling stories of late night gambling and prostitution at the Watergate Hotel is not capable of number 2 above.
Lastly, I am not just "trying to discredit everything [you] say." You are just the most vocal advocate of single source "facts" on these boards lately. Just because a movie or website places the word "FACT:" before a statement does not make it so. If you look at my replies to you over the last few months you will see a very definate trend and I don't think I ever said you were "wrong," merely that your facts were one-sided and questionable because they are very narrowly focused. In "fact," I believe I stated several times before that the great thing about Loose Change and Alex Jones are that when taken in context they facilitate some good investigation into all avenues of explaination for 9/11.
Originally posted by daeandor Originally posted by AlexAmore I don't really create these topics. I just respond because thats the point of a forum. I create my own opinions but of course I create them based off of information like everyone else in the world. Apparently you take whatever the government says or media says and render it true. I'm not positive where you stand because you're mostly attacking me so i'll just say your on the governments side. You seem very sensitive to these topics. I wonder why. I don't see whats wrong the facts I present. They come from pretty good sources (police, firemen, seismographs, news articles, TV,...ect).Where do you get your facts? 9/11 Commission report?
Sometimes I wonder if you're Jeb Bush trying to discredit everything I say. I mean you have no "User Info" about yourself...so it does look a little wierd *Cues the Twilight Zone theme*
Have you read the responses I made to these exact same topics over the last 4-5 months? You have been in the same threads responding to what I had posted, so I assumed you could remember. Sadly we have some borked up search and I cannot link them for you. I am not going to rehash the same argument with you for the millionth time just because you have a short memory. I am not sensitive to the subject, I am sensitive to people who take only 1 side as gospel. If you could remember my previous posts, you would know that I do not believe that either story adds up. Previously I cited several physics, engineering, and military sources that contradict both stories. Not only that, I have previously cited errors in the logic used for each side to come to the "facts" they state as "truth," which merely provides openings for alternatives that need to be investigated.
Let me just point out 2 things that I saw tonight on Real Time with Bill Maher, a well documented left-winger,about the conspiracy theories, with some added info by me. In order for the conspiracy theory to be true, you have to have 2 things come together:
The US government would have to be competent enough to pull off simultaneously:
3 guided missile (a plane used as a suicide missile counts) attacks on US soil without any verification that the government was solely responsible.
Multi-agency cooperation in order to prepare for the attacks.
Multi-agency cooperation in order to facilitate the coverup of US involvement.
The US government would have to be able to keep all of the above secret.
I submit that an intelligence and military community that cannot accurately identify and hit targets during the "shock and awe" campaign, is not capable of number 1 above. I also submit that a government that cannot keep a couple of hookers from telling stories of late night gambling and prostitution at the Watergate Hotel is not capable of number 2 above.
Lastly, I am not just "trying to discredit everything [you] say." You are just the most vocal advocate of single source "facts" on these boards lately. Just because a movie or website places the word "FACT:" before a statement does not make it so. If you look at my replies to you over the last few months you will see a very definate trend and I don't think I ever said you were "wrong," merely that your facts were one-sided and questionable because they are very narrowly focused. In "fact," I believe I stated several times before that the great thing about Loose Change and Alex Jones are that when taken in context they facilitate some good investigation into all avenues of explaination for 9/11.
It is a fact that they are covering up lots of things though like the melted WTC metal, Pentagon footage, blackbox info. They aren't releasing it and so they are covering it up...thats the definition of not releasing information - "cover up".
As far as having multi-agency cooperation. What you really need is the head of the agencies to cooperate. I'm sure being in the Bush administration its not very hard getting 3 planes and hooking it up to remote control, set up base in WTC 7, then after blowing up the buildings then blow up WTC 7 to destroy evidence (Just one likely scenario). If you looked into PNAC (members are now in Bush Administration and government in general) which is a group who wanted this exact scenario of a new pearl harbor, you would see there were lots of people all wanting this who were in high positions on 9/11.
As for 1C and number 2 of your list...well obviously they didn't too well. Their sloppyness of the 9/11 job is quite obvious. I wouldn't put it pass any of the government agency chiefs to keep this secret. Look at the wiretappings its been going on for awhile but nobody said anything till recently leaked and it was absolutely illegal.
There has been virtually no mass media coverage of the issues of the 9/11 war games, the "amazing coincidence" of a "plane into building" exercise being conducted that morning, or the alleged role of Vice President Richard Cheney in overseeing the war games that morning.
"On September 11, at least five different "war games" were being conducted by the military and intelligence agencies. These exercises included simulations of 9/11 type events, a plane into building scenario near Dulles Airport in Virginia, and deployment of fighters to northern Canada and Alaska (which reduced the number of fighters that were available to protect the US?). It seems that these exercises were the means used to paralyze the air defenses, thereby ensuring the success of the "attacks."
It is difficult to believe that it is a bizarre "coincidence" that the military and CIA were conducting wargames similar to 9/11 on September 11, 2001. While it seems likely, if not blatantly obvious, that these war games were one of the means used to confuse the air defense system for sufficient time to allow the World Trade Center to be attacked, the war games do not answer the question of how the air defenses were suppressed for another half hour after the second tower was hit (at which time everyone knew that an attack was in progress). The Air Force had another half hour after the second tower to scramble interceptors to defend the Capitol (the plane that is alleged to have hit the Pentagon made its 180 degree turn over Ohio to head back toward D.C. about the time that the second tower was struck).
Perhaps a complete investigation would reveal if the national order to ground all aviation (an unprecedented directive from the Transportation Department) also included military airplanes as well -- especially given the chaos and confusion that morning, a stand down of key fighter interceptors would have been easily concealed. But the information about the wargames suggests that a "stand down" order was NOT issued that morning -- the confusion from the war games was how the defenses of New York and Washington were interfered with sufficiently to ensure the success of the attacks.
It is unlikely that the "inside job" conspirators would have risked the success of the operation on whether fighter plane pilots would have obeyed orders to do nothing as American cities were burning. It would be like asking a firefighter who had trained their entire adult life to "stand down" when their neighbor's house was burning and the inhabitants trapped inside (or worse, asking that firefighter to "stand down" from protecting the next house on the block from catching fire from the first burning house). In this analogy, the firefighter would probably ignore orders from his or her boss to stand down, and would seek to rescue the neighbors without worrying about the consequences until later.
The wargames provide a much better explanation for why there was an apparent stand down and failure to respond in time.
If a genuine investigation with subpeona power is ever held, the full details of the 9/11 wargames will need to be declassified and discussed in public -- who scheduled them, who set up the scenarios, the full communications records from the participants, the radar tapes (if they still exist) that were used as part of the simulations, and the identities of those officials who deployed part of the fighter defense fleet to northern Canada and Alaska at the very time that warnings were being sounded that a terrorist attack was imminent." - Michael Rupper former LAPD investigator.
So another way to have multi-agency cooperation - confuse them. Yet another cover up as as you can read from the last paragraph aswell.
EDIT: I forgot to mention. I do remember you saying you didn't believe completely in either story. Just remember: "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." - Bush. So Daeander, in Bush's eyes you're a terrorist. So maybe i'm one-sided, but its because there's not a chance in Hell i'm going to side with the "official story", with it's plenty of holes. What other sides are there? You either believe it was a terrorist attack or an inside job. Maybe there is another explanation so that would mean the government is lying and covering up lots of things.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
No Stand-Down Order CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.
Intercepts Not Routine CLAIM:"It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
check this link out, and read the first paragraphs, many of the hijackers of the planes of the 911 attack are STILL ALIVE, meaning, they didn't hijack, and the officials are putting these names just for fun.
Originally posted by xPaladin Ok, well, seeing dogpile topics like this thread gets me pissed off. I'm a native new yorker who lived through 9/11 and support the actions of this country. Most of this paranoid crap is spewed by people who weren't even on site that day and just want to take a piss on the government. And because it's "cool" to be anti-whatever, people jump on crap like this.
Let's get one thing straight: when you support sh*t like this, you are effectively spitting on the corpses of everyone that died that day. You should be damn right ashamed of yourselves.
That said, let's talk counterargument:
That's Just Stupid - This video is a pragmatic approach to 9/11. Kinda biased, but very pragmatic. I like it because they make an excellent point in discussing how conspiracy theories are formulated. This is an effective set up for the next argument:
No, they're dead. They died when they flew planes into buildings in the name of Allah. I clicked your link and realized it was advertising Alex Jones. The guy is a total wack job. Do you realize how many people have the same name as myself? Those people have the same names as the hijackers. They're not THE hijackers. Listen to the claims here folks.
Suppossedly our goverment kills thousands of it's citizens, all the passengers on the planes, etc. Yet, doesn't bother to kill the guys they're framing and claiming died on the planes.....LOL. And you believe anything this guy says?! Islamic fascist killing in the name of Allah flew those planes. Not your imaginary remote cotrolled devices. Oops, forgot some conspirators claim there weren't even planes....
Originally posted by lardmouth No, they're dead. They died when they flew planes into buildings in the name of Allah. I clicked your link and realized it was advertising Alex Jones. The guy is a total wack job. Do you realize how many people have the same name as myself? Those people have the same names as the hijackers. They're not THE hijackers. Listen to the claims here folks. Suppossedly our goverment kills thousands of it's citizens, all the passengers on the planes, etc. Yet, doesn't bother to kill the guys they're framing and claiming died on the planes.....LOL. And you believe anything this guy says?! Islamic fascist killing in the name of Allah flew those planes. Not your imaginary remote cotrolled devices. Oops, forgot some conspirators claim there weren't even planes....
Typical brainwashed US citizen.
Also watched too many US made "terrorists" movies? Keep swallowing everything the government is feeding you.
Originally posted by lardmouth No, they're dead. They died when they flew planes into buildings in the name of Allah. I clicked your link and realized it was advertising Alex Jones. The guy is a total wack job. Do you realize how many people have the same name as myself? Those people have the same names as the hijackers. They're not THE hijackers. Listen to the claims here folks. Suppossedly our goverment kills thousands of it's citizens, all the passengers on the planes, etc. Yet, doesn't bother to kill the guys they're framing and claiming died on the planes.....LOL. And you believe anything this guy says?! Islamic fascist killing in the name of Allah flew those planes. Not your imaginary remote cotrolled devices. Oops, forgot some conspirators claim there weren't even planes....
Typical brainwashed US citizen.
Also watched too many US made "terrorists" movies? Keep swallowing everything the government is feeding you.
Just because Loose Change isn't made by the goverment doesn't make it right. You shouldn't take anything just as it is. Someone believing blindly in Loose Change is not much better than a brainwashed citizen. The proofs in that movie are higly questionable at the best. If a movie quotes people by quoting only half of what they are saying a warning rings in my brain. If a movie presents "proof" where only one side is looked upon, the side fitting the movie, a warning rings in my brain. If you believe in this movie you are brainwashed too, not by Bush and his idiots, but by Alex Jones.
First of all I don't believe or like the american goverment. So I'm certainly no person who takes all they say as good fish. But this movie is not even close to presenting anything valuable. It tells you that there are theories that tell something else than the official story, that there are questions. But that is all this movie manages to prove.
Originally posted by lardmouth No, they're dead. They died when they flew planes into buildings in the name of Allah. I clicked your link and realized it was advertising Alex Jones. The guy is a total wack job. Do you realize how many people have the same name as myself? Those people have the same names as the hijackers. They're not THE hijackers. Listen to the claims here folks. Suppossedly our goverment kills thousands of it's citizens, all the passengers on the planes, etc. Yet, doesn't bother to kill the guys they're framing and claiming died on the planes.....LOL. And you believe anything this guy says?! Islamic fascist killing in the name of Allah flew those planes. Not your imaginary remote cotrolled devices. Oops, forgot some conspirators claim there weren't even planes....
Typical brainwashed US citizen.
Also watched too many US made "terrorists" movies? Keep swallowing everything the government is feeding you.
Ooooh, typical brainwashed American am I? Are all those engineers and engineering journals describing how the buildings fell also part of the Grand Conspiracy? Name me one structural engineer that has claimed and shown that the building fell due to bombs are some other braindead theory. One, just name one. I've provided a considerable amount of hard engineering science analysis regarding loss of structural integrity and heat led to the collapse. Can you do the same for your argument? Qualified analysis by qualified researchers in the relevant disciplines of science and engineering? No? But, I'm the brainwashed one!
It seems the US government will do anything to reach their goals.
The "many other lies" I mentioned above, I have 2 examples right here
1. The commerical plane being shot down by Soviet missle It did not even have any passager on it at all. It was all a plan that will turn out to be winning either way. In fact it had huge explosives on the plane and was targeting to blow up Soviet nuclear base.
If the Soviets shoot it down, they will be blamed for being ruthless blood thirsty bad guys that killed hundreds innocent people, the people all over the world will hate them more.
If they didn't shoot it down, the military base that plane was heading will not exist any more. But of course it would be "an accident".
some interesting facts, the packages of the hundreds poor "passengers" were actualy tied together to avoid "disappear" in the ocean.
certainly it worked out well, just look at the videos of angry protestors in the US.
2. Tiananmen Square "massacre" It never happened. Had first hand information from someone who passed the "massacre" spot twice that day. The smoke was tear gas. The people were running from tear gas. The injuried people were caused by pushing and being stepped after falling, and some people were throwing rocks around.
facts you could see in the US, on TV news you could see that one line of tanks were blocked by that one Chinese man. And the first tank tried to get around him twice but had to stop because that guy blocked it again. (oh yeah the news added some more story of "people pulled him to 'safety' " which never was on the video. Why? because those tanks will crash him? )
WHY wouldn't they just add 1 more kill to their "massacre" which resaulted in "thousands dead students"?
Sure you can say the media all over the world said the "massacre" did occur. In fact they were all quoted from the US media.
Not to mention, there wasn't any video about the soldiers open fire and people fell down in blood on the same screen at all. It was all being told by the voice in the background by whoever was working for the media while all we saw was smoke and running people.
Unfortunately, there were also videos about 2 of those tanks were burned alive with the soldiers dead, just because...there were crowds completely surrounded the tanks. They couldn't move, couldn't shoot, and they would be killed anyway if they go out.
Another fact, from what I heard. In China, even the cops who shot the criminals who also had their weapon out, the cops will be questioned repeatly by their superiors afterwards about whether they fired at the right moment. A few cops lost their jobs for "shot too early". Many more were actually ... dead...because they were too afraid of shooting at someone who had their knife out.
It is like common sense that it is impossible the soldiers will shoot the people over there, just like nobody will believe the soldiers will shoot people here. But of course the people here will believe totally that the soldiers over there will kill people without a second thought...thx to long term media influence.
There are a million more long-term lies that are believed by majority. And every day, there are more new ones.
Oh why would the US government do that? It is called long-term defame. To brainwash people to have the common "knowledge" of that the enemies of the US are big bad evil assholes.
Same with "terrorists" this, "terrorists" that every day. Then bang, Iraq is gone. Iran will be the next. No matter what Iran do, they will be the next. It was all planned long time ago anyway.
1. You talking about The Kal flight 902? Or the Kal flight 007? Those are the only 2 planes I know of that have been shot down by russian missiles. Kal flight 902, being damaged crash landing and everyone surviving. Kal flight 007, being shot down over the sea, noone surviving. But the reconstruction is pretty clear, I have a german magazine here with minute by minute reconstruction of the happenings.
2. First of all. It wasn't that day. It was those days. It lasted from April 15 too June 4. According to the Chinese goverment there where between 400 and 800 civillians dead. And it's not a new thing that what the communists did, do, wouldn't be presented in the exact way it really happen(s)ed. After all it's the all consuming evil USA has hated for alot of years now.
Noone says that a goverment doing illegal things can't happen or hasn't happened. But at this date there are no valuable evidence that something fishy happened 9/11. Regarding Iraq, Iran we all know what is going to happen next.
one thing you should learn about the US gov. they lie, simple, man i can't even trust they lie anymore because they lie too much, so i can never trust anything from them, nor their media since all of the US media ( aside from the private run ones who oppose the gov ) are paid by the gov, they fill their mouths with money and tell them what to say.
HECK even BUSH was being told what to say, so guess what? neither Bush nor son of a BUSH has control over what they were doing.
so tell me how can you trust anything that comes out of the garbage the gov throw at you? i can't trust them, they lied, and continue to lie, and they will do so forever until they're wiped out of the face of earth, the gov. that is.
Ooooh, typical brainwashed American am I? Are all those engineers and engineering journals describing how the buildings fell also part of the Grand Conspiracy? Name me one structural engineer that has claimed and shown that the building fell due to bombs are some other braindead theory. One, just name one. I've provided a considerable amount of hard engineering science analysis regarding loss of structural integrity and heat led to the collapse. Can you do the same for your argument? Qualified analysis by qualified researchers in the relevant disciplines of science and engineering? No? But, I'm the brainwashed one!
all of those so called engineers are most likely to be payed by the gov to say what they said, you can't trust them too because they work for the gov, and they will deny that, because the price of betrayal is very expensive, and almost everyone will be ready to accept it.
so don't give me that crap about engineers, they weren't there in the first place, on top of that you're putting aside ALL of those witnesses who have been THERE when the towers collapsed, and taking the word of LIERS ? good for you, i wonder how you're keeping a stright face after that.
Bill Clinton lied about a blow job and got impeached. Bush lies about WMDs in Iraq sets up a war and kills thousands of innocent people and soldiers, then changes the story to freeing Iraq when WMD failed. I don't think Bill Clinton is any good either (Not just because of the blowjob), just comparing.
After repeated false sightings, both Tony Blair and George Bush proclaimed on 30 May that two trailers found in Iraq were mobile biological laboratories. "We have already found two trailers, both of which we believe were used for the production of biological weapons," said Mr Blair. Mr Bush went further: "Those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons - they're wrong. We found them." It is now almost certain that the vehicles were for the production of hydrogen for weather balloons, just as the Iraqis claimed - and that they were exported by Britain.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Comments
Yikes, that fact that people have blindly accepted this vid scares me. Can you name one structrual engineer that supports the "bomb" theory? Just one?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y
http://media2.uploadjar.com/uploads/911_loose_change_vie15a3eb.pdf
Those are some links to see information that this kook INTENTIONALLY left out of his tin foil hat conspiracy theory.
You'll find points often regurgitated by the kooks directly attacked and laid to waste. For instance, the blatant misrepresentation of the seismographs. The blatant use of pictures from only certains angles of the buildings. And you'll also find out that....ready for this? Blatanly being wrong about what type of engines the plane should have had that struck the pentagon. There are friggin pictures of lots of wreckage from the pentagon strike by the way....
You'll find out that some of his sources, AREN'T proffesionals in the events they're trying to comment on! Not one structural engineer is cited to back up his claim that the building fell from planted bombs. Not one...
Bush actually looks kind of cute on that picture lol.
Anyway, could you explain that Skull and Bones organization a little more in details? I heard that one before about Bush, and I thought it was a joke. Well I mean the name of the organization sounded like a joke. Though I know such crganization does exist. After all, those real bosses of this country will do anything to secrure their positions of power and wealth.
Bush actually looks kind of cute on that picture lol.
Anyway, could you explain that Skull and Bones organization a little more in details? I heard that one before about Bush, and I thought it was a joke. Well I mean the name of the organization sounded like a joke. Though I know such crganization does exist. After all, those real bosses of this country will do anything to secrure their positions of power and wealth.
Wasn't that the "secret society" that they were in when they went to college? it was yale or harvard i think...
Here's wikipedia talking about Skull and Bones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_bones. Wiki is a good start but you can delve a lot deeper than that, but its a good basis as always.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/010104kerryadmits.html - Kerry admiting membership
http://www.prisonplanet.com/020904presidentquizzed.html - Bush.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Have you read the responses I made to these exact same topics over the last 4-5 months? You have been in the same threads responding to what I had posted, so I assumed you could remember. Sadly we have some borked up search and I cannot link them for you. I am not going to rehash the same argument with you for the millionth time just because you have a short memory. I am not sensitive to the subject, I am sensitive to people who take only 1 side as gospel. If you could remember my previous posts, you would know that I do not believe that either story adds up. Previously I cited several physics, engineering, and military sources that contradict both stories. Not only that, I have previously cited errors in the logic used for each side to come to the "facts" they state as "truth," which merely provides openings for alternatives that need to be investigated.
Let me just point out 2 things that I saw tonight on Real Time with Bill Maher, a well documented left-winger, about the conspiracy theories, with some added info by me. In order for the conspiracy theory to be true, you have to have 2 things come together:
I submit that an intelligence and military community that cannot accurately identify and hit targets during the "shock and awe" campaign, is not capable of number 1 above. I also submit that a government that cannot keep a couple of hookers from telling stories of late night gambling and prostitution at the Watergate Hotel is not capable of number 2 above.
Lastly, I am not just "trying to discredit everything [you] say." You are just the most vocal advocate of single source "facts" on these boards lately. Just because a movie or website places the word "FACT:" before a statement does not make it so. If you look at my replies to you over the last few months you will see a very definate trend and I don't think I ever said you were "wrong," merely that your facts were one-sided and questionable because they are very narrowly focused. In "fact," I believe I stated several times before that the great thing about Loose Change and Alex Jones are that when taken in context they facilitate some good investigation into all avenues of explaination for 9/11.
Have you read the responses I made to these exact same topics over the last 4-5 months? You have been in the same threads responding to what I had posted, so I assumed you could remember. Sadly we have some borked up search and I cannot link them for you. I am not going to rehash the same argument with you for the millionth time just because you have a short memory. I am not sensitive to the subject, I am sensitive to people who take only 1 side as gospel. If you could remember my previous posts, you would know that I do not believe that either story adds up. Previously I cited several physics, engineering, and military sources that contradict both stories. Not only that, I have previously cited errors in the logic used for each side to come to the "facts" they state as "truth," which merely provides openings for alternatives that need to be investigated.
Let me just point out 2 things that I saw tonight on Real Time with Bill Maher, a well documented left-winger, about the conspiracy theories, with some added info by me. In order for the conspiracy theory to be true, you have to have 2 things come together:
I submit that an intelligence and military community that cannot accurately identify and hit targets during the "shock and awe" campaign, is not capable of number 1 above. I also submit that a government that cannot keep a couple of hookers from telling stories of late night gambling and prostitution at the Watergate Hotel is not capable of number 2 above.
Lastly, I am not just "trying to discredit everything [you] say." You are just the most vocal advocate of single source "facts" on these boards lately. Just because a movie or website places the word "FACT:" before a statement does not make it so. If you look at my replies to you over the last few months you will see a very definate trend and I don't think I ever said you were "wrong," merely that your facts were one-sided and questionable because they are very narrowly focused. In "fact," I believe I stated several times before that the great thing about Loose Change and Alex Jones are that when taken in context they facilitate some good investigation into all avenues of explaination for 9/11.
It is a fact that they are covering up lots of things though like the melted WTC metal, Pentagon footage, blackbox info. They aren't releasing it and so they are covering it up...thats the definition of not releasing information - "cover up".
As far as having multi-agency cooperation. What you really need is the head of the agencies to cooperate. I'm sure being in the Bush administration its not very hard getting 3 planes and hooking it up to remote control, set up base in WTC 7, then after blowing up the buildings then blow up WTC 7 to destroy evidence (Just one likely scenario). If you looked into PNAC (members are now in Bush Administration and government in general) which is a group who wanted this exact scenario of a new pearl harbor, you would see there were lots of people all wanting this who were in high positions on 9/11.
As for 1C and number 2 of your list...well obviously they didn't too well. Their sloppyness of the 9/11 job is quite obvious. I wouldn't put it pass any of the government agency chiefs to keep this secret. Look at the wiretappings its been going on for awhile but nobody said anything till recently leaked and it was absolutely illegal.
There has been virtually no mass media coverage of the issues of the 9/11 war games, the "amazing coincidence" of a "plane into building" exercise being conducted that morning, or the alleged role of Vice President Richard Cheney in overseeing the war games that morning.
"On September 11, at least five different "war games" were being conducted by the military and intelligence agencies. These exercises included simulations of 9/11 type events, a plane into building scenario near Dulles Airport in Virginia, and deployment of fighters to northern Canada and Alaska (which reduced the number of fighters that were available to protect the US?). It seems that these exercises were the means used to paralyze the air defenses, thereby ensuring the success of the "attacks."
It is difficult to believe that it is a bizarre "coincidence" that the military and CIA were conducting wargames similar to 9/11 on September 11, 2001. While it seems likely, if not blatantly obvious, that these war games were one of the means used to confuse the air defense system for sufficient time to allow the World Trade Center to be attacked, the war games do not answer the question of how the air defenses were suppressed for another half hour after the second tower was hit (at which time everyone knew that an attack was in progress). The Air Force had another half hour after the second tower to scramble interceptors to defend the Capitol (the plane that is alleged to have hit the Pentagon made its 180 degree turn over Ohio to head back toward D.C. about the time that the second tower was struck).
Perhaps a complete investigation would reveal if the national order to ground all aviation (an unprecedented directive from the Transportation Department) also included military airplanes as well -- especially given the chaos and confusion that morning, a stand down of key fighter interceptors would have been easily concealed. But the information about the wargames suggests that a "stand down" order was NOT issued that morning -- the confusion from the war games was how the defenses of New York and Washington were interfered with sufficiently to ensure the success of the attacks.
It is unlikely that the "inside job" conspirators would have risked the success of the operation on whether fighter plane pilots would have obeyed orders to do nothing as American cities were burning. It would be like asking a firefighter who had trained their entire adult life to "stand down" when their neighbor's house was burning and the inhabitants trapped inside (or worse, asking that firefighter to "stand down" from protecting the next house on the block from catching fire from the first burning house). In this analogy, the firefighter would probably ignore orders from his or her boss to stand down, and would seek to rescue the neighbors without worrying about the consequences until later.
The wargames provide a much better explanation for why there was an apparent stand down and failure to respond in time.
If a genuine investigation with subpeona power is ever held, the full details of the 9/11 wargames will need to be declassified and discussed in public -- who scheduled them, who set up the scenarios, the full communications records from the participants, the radar tapes (if they still exist) that were used as part of the simulations, and the identities of those officials who deployed part of the fighter defense fleet to northern Canada and Alaska at the very time that warnings were being sounded that a terrorist attack was imminent." - Michael Rupper former LAPD investigator.
So another way to have multi-agency cooperation - confuse them. Yet another cover up as as you can read from the last paragraph aswell.
EDIT: I forgot to mention. I do remember you saying you didn't believe completely in either story. Just remember: "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." - Bush. So Daeander, in Bush's eyes you're a terrorist.
So maybe i'm one-sided, but its because there's not a chance in Hell i'm going to side with the "official story", with it's plenty of holes. What other sides are there? You either believe it was a terrorist attack or an inside job. Maybe there is another explanation so that would mean the government is lying and covering up lots of things.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
http://media2.uploadjar.com/uploads/911_loose_change_vie15a3eb.pdf
That link absolutely rips Loose Screw...err, I mean Change to shreds.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=3&c=y
No Stand-Down Order
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.
Intercepts Not Routine
CLAIM: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
And now I'll introduce some links that the conspiracy nuts don't want you to see.
Science and Engineering, oh my!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html Why the WTC 7 actually fell....
http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wtc/index.htm#Engineering%20and%20Construction
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
http://www.store.yahoo.com/infowars-shop/pauljoswator.html
check this link out, and read the first paragraphs, many of the hijackers of the planes of the 911 attack are STILL ALIVE, meaning, they didn't hijack, and the officials are putting these names just for fun.
No, they're dead. They died when they flew planes into buildings in the name of Allah. I clicked your link and realized it was advertising Alex Jones. The guy is a total wack job. Do you realize how many people have the same name as myself? Those people have the same names as the hijackers. They're not THE hijackers. Listen to the claims here folks.
Suppossedly our goverment kills thousands of it's citizens, all the passengers on the planes, etc. Yet, doesn't bother to kill the guys they're framing and claiming died on the planes.....LOL. And you believe anything this guy says?! Islamic fascist killing in the name of Allah flew those planes. Not your imaginary remote cotrolled devices. Oops, forgot some conspirators claim there weren't even planes....
Typical brainwashed US citizen.
Also watched too many US made "terrorists" movies?
Keep swallowing everything the government is feeding you.
Typical brainwashed US citizen.
Also watched too many US made "terrorists" movies?
Keep swallowing everything the government is feeding you.
Just because Loose Change isn't made by the goverment doesn't make it right. You shouldn't take anything just as it is. Someone believing blindly in Loose Change is not much better than a brainwashed citizen. The proofs in that movie are higly questionable at the best. If a movie quotes people by quoting only half of what they are saying a warning rings in my brain. If a movie presents "proof" where only one side is looked upon, the side fitting the movie, a warning rings in my brain. If you believe in this movie you are brainwashed too, not by Bush and his idiots, but by Alex Jones.
You got it wrong.
I always have the same thoughts about the US government long before 9/11 ever occured.
There were many other lies being spotted. And still being believed by majority people.
Thus I did not believe in something just because 1 single movie. It was definately not that movie in the link made up my mind.
On the other hand, you have swallowed everything the government try to make the majority to believe over the years. It is long term brainwash.
Typical brainwashed US citizen.
Also watched too many US made "terrorists" movies?
Keep swallowing everything the government is feeding you.
Ooooh, typical brainwashed American am I? Are all those engineers and engineering journals describing how the buildings fell also part of the Grand Conspiracy? Name me one structural engineer that has claimed and shown that the building fell due to bombs are some other braindead theory. One, just name one. I've provided a considerable amount of hard engineering science analysis regarding loss of structural integrity and heat led to the collapse. Can you do the same for your argument? Qualified analysis by qualified researchers in the relevant disciplines of science and engineering? No? But, I'm the brainwashed one!
It seems the US government will do anything to reach their goals.
The "many other lies" I mentioned above, I have 2 examples right here
1. The commerical plane being shot down by Soviet missle
It did not even have any passager on it at all. It was all a plan that will turn out to be winning either way.
In fact it had huge explosives on the plane and was targeting to blow up Soviet nuclear base.
If the Soviets shoot it down, they will be blamed for being ruthless blood thirsty bad guys that killed hundreds innocent people, the people all over the world will hate them more.
If they didn't shoot it down, the military base that plane was heading will not exist any more. But of course it would be "an accident".
some interesting facts, the packages of the hundreds poor "passengers" were actualy tied together to avoid "disappear" in the ocean.
certainly it worked out well, just look at the videos of angry protestors in the US.
2. Tiananmen Square "massacre"
It never happened. Had first hand information from someone who passed the "massacre" spot twice that day. The smoke was tear gas. The people were running from tear gas. The injuried people were caused by pushing and being stepped after falling, and some people were throwing rocks around.
facts you could see in the US, on TV news you could see that one line of tanks were blocked by that one Chinese man. And the first tank tried to get around him twice but had to stop because that guy blocked it again.
(oh yeah the news added some more story of "people pulled him to 'safety' " which never was on the video. Why? because those tanks will crash him? )
WHY wouldn't they just add 1 more kill to their "massacre" which resaulted in "thousands dead students"?
Sure you can say the media all over the world said the "massacre" did occur. In fact they were all quoted from the US media.
Not to mention, there wasn't any video about the soldiers open fire and people fell down in blood on the same screen at all. It was all being told by the voice in the background by whoever was working for the media while all we saw was smoke and running people.
Unfortunately, there were also videos about 2 of those tanks were burned alive with the soldiers dead, just because...there were crowds completely surrounded the tanks. They couldn't move, couldn't shoot, and they would be killed anyway if they go out.
Another fact, from what I heard. In China, even the cops who shot the criminals who also had their weapon out, the cops will be questioned repeatly by their superiors afterwards about whether they fired at the right moment. A few cops lost their jobs for "shot too early". Many more were actually ... dead...because they were too afraid of shooting at someone who had their knife out.
It is like common sense that it is impossible the soldiers will shoot the people over there, just like nobody will believe the soldiers will shoot people here. But of course the people here will believe totally that the soldiers over there will kill people without a second thought...thx to long term media influence.
There are a million more long-term lies that are believed by majority. And every day, there are more new ones.
Oh why would the US government do that? It is called long-term defame. To brainwash people to have the common "knowledge" of that the enemies of the US are big bad evil assholes.
Same with "terrorists" this, "terrorists" that every day. Then bang, Iraq is gone. Iran will be the next. No matter what Iran do, they will be the next. It was all planned long time ago anyway.
1. You talking about The Kal flight 902? Or the Kal flight 007? Those are the only 2 planes I know of that have been shot down by russian missiles. Kal flight 902, being damaged crash landing and everyone surviving. Kal flight 007, being shot down over the sea, noone surviving. But the reconstruction is pretty clear, I have a german magazine here with minute by minute reconstruction of the happenings.
2. First of all. It wasn't that day. It was those days. It lasted from April 15 too June 4. According to the Chinese goverment there where between 400 and 800 civillians dead. And it's not a new thing that what the communists did, do, wouldn't be presented in the exact way it really happen(s)ed. After all it's the all consuming evil USA has hated for alot of years now.
Noone says that a goverment doing illegal things can't happen or hasn't happened. But at this date there are no valuable evidence that something fishy happened 9/11. Regarding Iraq, Iran we all know what is going to happen next.
one thing you should learn about the US gov. they lie, simple, man i can't even trust they lie anymore because they lie too much, so i can never trust anything from them, nor their media since all of the US media ( aside from the private run ones who oppose the gov ) are paid by the gov, they fill their mouths with money and tell them what to say.
HECK even BUSH was being told what to say, so guess what? neither Bush nor son of a BUSH has control over what they were doing.
so tell me how can you trust anything that comes out of the garbage the gov throw at you? i can't trust them, they lied, and continue to lie, and they will do so forever until they're wiped out of the face of earth, the gov. that is.
all of those so called engineers are most likely to be payed by the gov to say what they said, you can't trust them too because they work for the gov, and they will deny that, because the price of betrayal is very expensive, and almost everyone will be ready to accept it.
so don't give me that crap about engineers, they weren't there in the first place, on top of that you're putting aside ALL of those witnesses who have been THERE when the towers collapsed, and taking the word of LIERS ? good for you, i wonder how you're keeping a stright face after that.
Bill Clinton lied about a blow job and got impeached. Bush lies about WMDs in Iraq sets up a war and kills thousands of innocent people and soldiers, then changes the story to freeing Iraq when WMD failed. I don't think Bill Clinton is any good either (Not just because of the blowjob), just comparing.
After repeated false sightings, both Tony Blair and George Bush proclaimed on 30 May that two trailers found in Iraq were mobile biological laboratories. "We have already found two trailers, both of which we believe were used for the production of biological weapons," said Mr Blair. Mr Bush went further: "Those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons - they're wrong. We found them." It is now almost certain that the vehicles were for the production of hydrogen for weather balloons, just as the Iraqis claimed - and that they were exported by Britain.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American