So Jazia, what should Americans be told as they grow up? Who's "truth" should be "forcefed" to us? Yours? You say everything Americans ever hear in life is garbage but offer nothing as a viable alternative. Your information is as much hearsay as what "US government media" uses. Just because you believe one explaination more than another does not mean that yours is more "true" when they are both based on eyewitness accounts (that conflict). You cannot assume that because 1 column of tanks decides not to kill 1 man that it would be impossible for others to kill hundreds in different circumstances. Your distrust of "US government news media" is blinding you just as much as you say "brainwashed Americans" are blinded.
It's not that simple like you said "believe one explaination more than another". The ones you believe in are nothing but widely spreaded stories by the government without even much facts in it. It does not seem any of you hardcore believers of the government could come up with a decent explaination of why those tanks did not kill that 1 guy while they could kill... 1000+ others? You can't even make a simple judgement on your own any more.
About which "truth" you should believe in, use your own brain. Have a clear mind about what is a "fact", what is a "story". Question every story you were told. Because they are nothing but stories of others unless you can prove them true with obivous facts. In many cases, you will have to come up with your own explainations instead of simply take in a story made up by others.
For example, in the case of 9/11. The facts are, WTC were hit by planes, and later they collapsed completely with many more explosions took place far away from the fire. The Pentagon had an explosion and had a small hole that never can fit a plane into it. There was no plane parts at all. Nor anybody really saw a plane the claimed size. Guided missle does have the shape of a TINY plane, and hard to tell the difference with that kind of speed and close range.
These statements tell me you never have researched this on your own, and instead have swallowed up the conspiracy theory. First, "explosions." Imagine that, explosions in a building that has lost structrual integrity and has a raging fire going on. Thousands of tons of debris falling, generators exploding, etc. I'd be damn suprised if there weren't explosions. And the size of the hole in the pentagon....The hole was 75 ft....Please try to show me the 12 ft. hole picture on the inner ring, please do....cause that's the hole that the landing gear made....I posted links with photos of the holes in this very thread.
The stories are, The terrorists of Osama Bin Ladan were behind it. The buildings collapsed because of the fire. The Pentagon was hit by a big plane.
The facts, you mean. I've provided just a sample of University and Engeering journal analysis showing how the structure damage and fires led to the collapse. I've challenged anyone to give us one Structural engineer who has disagreed and believes your story. One...
In the case of Tiananmen Square Massacre, The facts are, There were protestors. There were armies. There were people dead and injuried. There was 1 guy stopped the tanks, and the first tank tried to get around him twice before being stopped again, then they stuck there for quite a while before that guy was pulled away.
The stories are, The army were given order and fired into thousands of peaceful students and killed over 1000 right on the same spot at once. Which is a massacre.
Well, partly right. 1000's weren't killed on the same spot, at once (by the way, you say that as if because it wasn't all at once, it's not impressive)....They were killed over a time period (weeks, I believe) with many thousands more becoming political prisoners. The initial show of restraint was due to foriegn media being present. After awhile, the media personel begin to recieve the beatings by the army and, fearing for their lives, took refuge in the embassy. For the most part, news agencies ended up relying on civilian witnesses to bring them the stories. As soldiers were still periodically beating, shooting, and arresting civilians without probable cause. Remember, for the longest time China didn't help with it's silence on the subject. It basically said the "crackdown" was needed to insure "stability." I've also asked you to provide us with the amount that did die. You have admitted that the army did use semi-automatic weapons on people with no access to guns. Kind of a large jump in the use of force there.
In the case of Iraq The facts are, Saddam is a dictator, and he is always like that. Saddam had invaded Iran years ago and fought a long war, while the US government was totally supporting him. He had also invaded Kuwait in Gulf War.
The stories are, He had connection to the 9/11 "terrorists".
K, now could you provide a source concerning the claim of Saddam being connected to THE 9/11 terrorist. I' can only recall the claim that he had paid the families of palestinian suicide bombers and had given refuge to Zawqari (sp?).
He had WMD.
He did, ask the kurds. Now, you have to ask why the madman threw out the inspectors, blocked inspections of sites multiple times, destroyed documents and records on his programs and stockpiles, etc. (This is all according to the UN, by the way) Ultimately, it's his own doing for not living up to the terms he agreed on. By providing unfettered access to prove he had disposed of the stockpiles and all restricted dual use technology? During this war, even many of his own military commanders were surprised that they weren't used.
He will give the WMD to the terrorists.
Sorry, but I for one am glad that I don't ever have to worry about that possibility now.
He will use the WMD to destory the world.
You're exaggerating
He must be stopped and replaced now. The US government sent troops to "save" Kuwait.
Uh, why would you write it like that? "save..." You don't think they were saved from him? They would have been better off?
The US government sent troops to "free" Iraqi people. Iraqis "love" the Americans, and wanted their troops to "free" them with an invasion.
Wow, how cold hearted of you...There are Iraqi's dieing and risking death attempting to hold on to this new amount of freedom they have. Do you remember the turnout of the Iraqis to vote? The defiant flaunting of the inked finger? And you belittle that? You go ahead and side with those who want us out. And watch as those Iraqis who stood up to try to form a more unified and tolerant government are dragged out and slaughtered by religious fanatics hell bent on a toletarian theocratic regime. Shia, Sunni, and Kurd sit at the table attempting to make history. The brave men of the Iraqi army and police force risk death daily to protect that. And our armed forces train them and fight side by side with them to do just that.
I can go on forever.
You hardcore believers already have your "common knowledge" being shaped by the government. Now you only want to hear the things that fit the "common knowledge", and hate to hear the things that are conflicting with them just because "that doesn't sound right".
I'm done arguing with you. I will not attempt any further discussion. You deliberately turn a blind eye to any evidence presented. Your above statements about the towers and the size of the pentagon hole show that you have studied only what conforms to your fantasy. There were direct links to articles explaining how heat and structure loss caused the collapses. How similes, such as "LIKE an explosion" does not equal "a bomb."
My links provided pictures of the wreckage at the pentagon that conspiracy nuts say supposedly wasn't there. It discusses the 12/16 ft. hole myth and shows photos of the 75 ft. hole! It shows how the authors of loose change know jack crap about 757 engines and how they use that lack of knowledge. It shows how he claims the smoke wasn't black (the signifigance is explained in the article) but yet, shortly later shows an image of the Pentagon roaring with fire and pouring out BLACK smoke. In his own video...
All of these contradictions and more are pointed out. All of his lack of knowledge on the relevant scientific disciplines he tries to comment on, are pointed out. His misquotes. His taking quotes out of text. His somehow equating "explosions" with the unquestionable proof of bombs! His blantant use of photos at angles to bolster his arguement. Example, the use of photos showing a side of the WTC 7 with only smoke. Nevermind, the photos of the otherside of the WTC 7 that show structural damage and a blazing fire....Why not show those photos? Many more examples of deliberate ommission. All this is shown in black and white by what I linked. Photos, qualified and respected jounals, universities, Engineers of the relevant disciplines. And yet, you still repeated the same myths. I challenge you to scroll up and read those links slowly and deliberately. Study the photos. Save yourself from this delusional fantasy world.
Having gotten that off my chest, I'll refrain from debating you any longer. It's pointless. You are too far entrenched in your fantasy.
All I can say is "Independence Day" was more believable!!! G*D D*MN!T. This is some smoking crack views.
and before you judge me, I am NOT a Bush supporter. I am anti government (in the form we have it) and I am disappointed in every aspect of our government since the late 1980's, but this is dumb. I cannot describe it any better. I could have come up with the same video if I had the same F#cking time this d&mb*ass had!
If I knew who this ignorant savage was I would make him drink my urine.
ignore everything ixontes said... I see nothing to prove OR disprove this video, not one single piece of evidence. This video has just as much physical evidence as the actual government explanations, and therefore is very nice to see.
I, although Canadian, think people need to take more initiative like this to get the word out on what they believe in, and this video definately tried its best to piece together the lies (or lets say "not full truths" which are still lies) that the US government has spewed to the people.
Good job to the people who put time into this, and to any nay sayers... take a look in the mirror, because at least this one makes sense. What the government said could have been invented by a 6 year old better than what they said happened
Lots of valid sounding points, I'm just not convinced it was the gov. But I would not put it past any person looking to gain a substantial amount of money to come up with idiotic plots in order to achieve that goal.
I do believe however that the gov. had prior knowledge of the attacks in some form or another but were not sure or prepared to stop them for some reason. Why? Who knows...but I doubt very highly that C.I.A is so stupid they didnt know this beforehand ( which you can watch tv and see the reports put on the presidents desk informing him of such acts ).
The thing is people are still looking for someone to hate for all that it seems, when maybe reguardless of what any terrorist or gov. says/thinks/claims responsibility for or points the finger at, that could have been any looney on any given day who decided he wanted to deface mankind yet again and show he could get away with it. Sad but true.
I'm not sure who made the video, but that person did some great research and put together one hell of a plot.
Originally posted by xPaladin Ok, well, seeing dogpile topics like this thread gets me pissed off. I'm a native new yorker who lived through 9/11 and support the actions of this country. Most of this paranoid crap is spewed by people who weren't even on site that day and just want to take a piss on the government. And because it's "cool" to be anti-whatever, people jump on crap like this.
Let's get one thing straight: when you support sh*t like this, you are effectively spitting on the corpses of everyone that died that day. You should be damn right ashamed of yourselves.
That said, let's talk counterargument:
That's Just Stupid - This video is a pragmatic approach to 9/11. Kinda biased, but very pragmatic. I like it because they make an excellent point in discussing how conspiracy theories are formulated. This is an effective set up for the next argument:
Remember kiddies, conspiracy whackos prey on the gullible and uninformed. The kind of "uninformed" that you believe everyone else to be.
Hopefully there's enough common sense in the PM article to shut some of you the hell up.
Nice post, lucky there are a few people in the world that actually use their head for something other than storing Chuck Norris jokes. The sad thing is some of these conspiracy nutjobs we actually have to trust enough to make our Big Macs.
Hmmmm about those explosions... You guys DO know that explosions are not an exact science right, that we lack full understanding of them, right, that iron can explode, right, that dust can create explosions, right?
Yes it was all a big conspiracy, there were no planes, heck no one even died... It's all been directed by Steven Spielberg and has been the War of the Worlds part II...
But then again judging from the amount of people actually buying this stuff over their visual observations of the day itself gave me a great idea, the video of the big conspiracy which is your employer handing you your salary is in fact a government act to control your minds will be available through google vids soon included are instructions on how to free yourself by donating your salary every month to my foundation against salary mind control.
Yes....all the intelligent individuals from all the countries around the world were fooled.....but some poster from mmorpg and this video some how all makes it clear that it was indeed a BIG conspiracy....WOW.
Originally posted by xPaladin Ok, well, seeing dogpile topics like this thread gets me pissed off. I'm a native new yorker who lived through 9/11 and support the actions of this country. Most of this paranoid crap is spewed by people who weren't even on site that day and just want to take a piss on the government. And because it's "cool" to be anti-whatever, people jump on crap like this.
Let's get one thing straight: when you support sh*t like this, you are effectively spitting on the corpses of everyone that died that day. You should be damn right ashamed of yourselves.
That said, let's talk counterargument:
That's Just Stupid - This video is a pragmatic approach to 9/11. Kinda biased, but very pragmatic. I like it because they make an excellent point in discussing how conspiracy theories are formulated. This is an effective set up for the next argument:
Originally posted by Atomicide So now they needed, explosives, missiles AND internal charges to take the building down, christ, next thing you know they will cut the list down, and ill be told "the planes didnt actually crash into the tower" I dont need a video by some guy who has no idea what hes talking about, giving me some half baked ideas, based on unverified information and sources to tell me what to think. Everyone can agree the twin tower attacks were the premise to the war on afghanistan, which is pretty much worth nothing to the USA. The war on Iraq was launched on a different note (WMD) and they went ahead with that despite not having any official information. The simple fact is, if the USA wanted to declare war on afghanistan, it didnt need an extra excuse to do so, considering Osama has been on their most wanted list for over 10 years, and they knew there was a threat from Al'Q.
Atleast the guy in the video provides proof.. You provide usless and mind numbingly ignorant bantering.. I'm not a scientist, I don't know if the "proof" he's presenting is real or not. However, I will not dispell a notion of wrong doing on our governements part just to save face. Wrong is wrong.. If they did wrong people should hang for this.
Originally posted by mystitigger I knew this from the time it happened. But I was not sure, at the time, who was responsible untill they took advantage of it to attack other countries. edit: if these people who are aruging the video would REALLY watch it.. they wouldn't be able to argue.
I have watched the video in it's entirety three times. Well, actually the first version 2x and the second version 1x. I've also read the transcripts and or documents quoted by Loose Change along with about a half a dozen other "conspiracy theories" that are similar to Loose Change. There is plenty of information in that video that is marginal at best along with major errors in reasoning.
I still submit that anyone who wholeheartedly believes one side or the other is not looking at the whole picture. The conspiracy theorists make glaring errors by relying on misquotes, bad science assumptions, and deceptive visual techniques in order to convince you that their argument is "fact." On the other hand, the government makes similar errors, the most noteworthy being that they have not released the reams of video footage that allegedly still exists from several locations in NYC and the Pentagon.
I am not going to go into detail about every single line item that is wrong with each theory. I did that 4-5 months ago when this subject first came up on these boards. Suffice to say that by merely using standardized critical thinking and analysis, you can debunk a majority of the claims of boths sides. What does that mean? It means that both sides fail to provide enough analytical steps supported by evidence to reach the conclusions they reach.
Yep, George Bush flew the planes into the towers by remote, we never landed on the moon, Oswald was only a distraction, Jesus lived in the suburbs with his wife and kids and playing the Beatles White album backwards lets you communicate with your dark master.
I'd believe this video in a heartbeat. Not neccesarily because I am easily influenced, but because of other things.
1) I have no doubt in my mind that United 93 was not an act of heroism. While I don't know if it ended up in Cleveland, I sure as hell know that some people didn't decide to crash it down in order to save the White House. Yeah, right, this is clearly an episode of 24, and everyone on United 93 is Jack Bauer. Especially given that such a percent of the population dilikes George Bush, suddenly they'd be willing to crash it in the middle of a field to save the man? Right...they wouldn't vote for him, but they'd happily and willingly sacrifice their lives for him. My ass...
2) I don't have any difficult believing that this is indeed one of the largest scandals in the history of any government to ever exist. I can't think of any other regime or government in which literally EVERY key figurehead has "stepped down". Seriously, if your own cabinet doesn't support you or believe you, your own people don't support you or believe you (by the way, Bush had a 4% approval rating 2 days ago on NBC news), and most of the world questions your actions and decisions, I certainly wouldn't put a scandal past the President.
3) Considering we had Bin Laden trapped in some caves, with Special Forces surrounding him, I fail to believe he just slipped under the radar. He didn't get away unless we wanted him to get away. It also would further allow Bush and his regime to state that Bin Laden is working with so and so...such as Saddam Hussein and Iraq, which we also invaded.
Say what you want, but the means and the motives are all there. I'm not trying to be a paranoid fanboi of the video, but even if you look at this video in the simplest terms, I think it's a lot easier to side with the conspiracy than the government.
"Who has more to lose or to gain by this scandal?"
Just think about that...what does a fireman get from lying, or a humble steelworker, or even a janitor? What do they gain from lying? The one guy got fired for speaking out, countless firemen died, and the janitor is still pushing a mop.
What has Bush gained? Insurmountable power, complete military authority, the right to spy and harass all Americans with no judicial prerequisites, an empowered cabinet, finances, and the right to act without any sort of checks or balances.
I don't have any problem seeing the real winner from this whole cherade, but that's just my 2 cents.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai I'd believe this video in a heartbeat. Not neccesarily because I am easily influenced, but because of other things.
1) I have no doubt in my mind that United 93 was not an act of heroism. While I don't know if it ended up in Cleveland, I sure as hell know that some people didn't decide to crash it down in order to save the White House. Yeah, right, this is clearly an episode of 24, and everyone on United 93 is Jack Bauer. Especially given that such a percent of the population dilikes George Bush, suddenly they'd be willing to crash it in the middle of a field to save the man? Right...they wouldn't vote for him, but they'd happily and willingly sacrifice their lives for him. My ass...
2) I don't have any difficult believing that this is indeed one of the largest scandals in the history of any government to ever exist. I can't think of any other regime or government in which literally EVERY key figurehead has "stepped down". Seriously, if your own cabinet doesn't support you or believe you, your own people don't support you or believe you (by the way, Bush had a 4% approval rating 2 days ago on NBC news), and most of the world questions your actions and decisions, I certainly wouldn't put a scandal past the President.
3) Considering we had Bin Laden trapped in some caves, with Special Forces surrounding him, I fail to believe he just slipped under the radar. He didn't get away unless we wanted him to get away. It also would further allow Bush and his regime to state that Bin Laden is working with so and so...such as Saddam Hussein and Iraq, which we also invaded.
Say what you want, but the means and the motives are all there. I'm not trying to be a paranoid fanboi of the video, but even if you look at this video in the simplest terms, I think it's a lot easier to side with the conspiracy than the government.
"Who has more to lose or to gain by this scandal?"
Just think about that...what does a fireman get from lying, or a humble steelworker, or even a janitor? What do they gain from lying? The one guy got fired for speaking out, countless firemen died, and the janitor is still pushing a mop.
What has Bush gained? Insurmountable power, complete military authority, the right to spy and harass all Americans with no judicial prerequisites, an empowered cabinet, finances, and the right to act without any sort of checks or balances.
I don't have any problem seeing the real winner from this whole cherade, but that's just my 2 cents.
I couldn't have said this any better, Good job Cymdai, i commend you :}
Reminder of links that completely demolish this crap. You conspiracy folks don't do alot of critical think, do you? Yeah, I know....These links rely on hard science and evidence. Something that boggles the simple minds of conspiracy nutjobs.
I live in NJ and I go to school only a few blocks from the WTC once proudly stood and I will tell you from my memory of that fatal day it was an act of terrorism. I purpose that those who believe in this crackpot theorist that the gov't did it then you go to the families of those who lost someone they love and you tell them that the gov't did it and we did not need to strike back at Afganistan for harboring those who were responsable. Then you come back and tell me that the U.S. gov't crafted 9/11.
The thing is, we didn't go after who was responsible. Sure, we invaded Afghnistan, but then, the Bush Administration suddenly shifted it's focus to Iraq. Why? Because there was a possibility that Bin laden was hiding there, even though we had no proof whatsoever?
Sure, Hussein was a horrible human being, but we invaded there under false pretenses. We went there to find Bin Laden, and Bush didn't have the public support, so he proceeded to falsely create rumors of bio-chemical weapons being produced (None of which were ever found, and several members of Bushs cabinet even suggested that they lied about there ever being chemical weapons, solely for the purpose of gaining public support for an invasion of Iraq)
I've read some of your facts Lardmouth, and I agree with some of them. I'm not saying either side is completely right in this arguement. In my opinion, you have to look at the extremists' theories, the government's theories, and take both with a grain of salt. Come to your own conclusion somewhere in the middle.
I personally DO believe 9/11 was facilitated by the government. I just do not believe everything in that video is accuraye. I don't believe the United 93 segment, about hiding passengers in the NASA building. I don't believe a plane crashed into the Pentagon. I sure as hell don't believe Bush and his cabinet were in the dark as to what was happening, and I sure as hell don't believe this whole thing was initiated for other bank's gold bullion.
In my opinion, it was a ploy by the Bush admninstration to gain public support for war on the middle east. Bush got to avenge his daddy, by capturing Hussein, we got closer to that precious oil, we lost numerous freedoms in the promise of security (which can never be achieved, people are only as safe as they are led to believe they actually are). Bush also has received near-god status politically and militarily, as he controls nearly everything with little to no rebuttal from anyone.
The fact is, if it wasn't some government conspiracy, then we have the most inept, incapable officials ever to take office running the United States, because I fail to believe that we can invade 2 countries and practically occupy them within weeks, yet with all the money and manpower in the world, we are unable to find Bin Laden. Yet we managed to find Hussein hiding in a "spiderhole" in the middle of nowhere.
Right...
There were some dark motives at work here, and I don't pretend to know what they were, but anyone who would believe our government is incapable of devious scandals and coverups, especially after things like the Watergate scandal, is truly ignorant.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by mystitigger Originally posted by Dis_Ordur To Alex and all the rest of you nutjobs: PWNED edit: Yeah.. that REALLY looks like a plane.. This is sad.. they released 5 frames with that in it. And whats with the second explosion!? hah.. owned..
Did you even bother reading the damned article? There is a video, the judicial watchdog group publicly admitted that there was a plane flown into the building... This watchdog group was purporting the exact same nonsensical conspiracy crap people are spewing on this board... Now THEY have come out and said it was a plane crash, why won't you?
If you so choose to live in a deluded fantasy world where conspiracies abound, then fine, do so, but don't make an ass out of yourself in the name of reason, it only makes you look like a complete idiot... Your theory has NO PROOF, yet the mainstream (and correct theory) theory HAS PROOF...
You must be a higher-up at the NORAD center at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, or maybe you must be a higher-up member of a terrorist group that has inside knowledge, I mean, this is the only way you could assuredly make these claims, right?
No, in the end you are just a quasi-intellect trying to sound smart, and looking like a fool in the process...
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Originally posted by mystitigger Originally posted by Dis_Ordur To Alex and all the rest of you nutjobs: PWNED edit: Yeah.. that REALLY looks like a plane.. This is sad.. they released 5 frames with that in it. And whats with the second explosion!? hah.. owned..
Did you even bother reading the damned article? There is a video, the judicial watchdog group publicly admitted that there was a plane flown into the building... This watchdog group was purporting the exact same nonsensical conspiracy crap people are spewing on this board... Now THEY have come out and said it was a plane crash, why won't you?
If you so choose to live in a deluded fantasy world where conspiracies abound, then fine, do so, but don't make an ass out of yourself in the name of reason, it only makes you look like a complete idiot... Your theory has NO PROOF, yet the mainstream (and correct theory) theory HAS PROOF...
You must be a higher-up at the NORAD center at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, or maybe you must be a higher-up member of a terrorist group that has inside knowledge, I mean, this is the only way you could assuredly make these claims, right?
No, in the end you are just a quasi-intellect trying to sound smart, and looking like a fool in the process...
/carry_on
Did you even bother watching the damned video?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur To Alex and all the rest of you nutjobs:
PWNED
Wow took them so many YEARs to finally completed the computer generated video. And still, the frame per second sux.
Even if it is real. How can you prove it was not a guided missle? Don't you know that the guided missles have wings etc. with a shape of just like a TINY plane?? The hole on the building definately was smaller than the size of the plane's wings. Why the building did not have the damage from the plane's wings? Where were the plane parts?
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Originally posted by mystitigger Originally posted by Dis_Ordur To Alex and all the rest of you nutjobs: PWNED edit: Yeah.. that REALLY looks like a plane.. This is sad.. they released 5 frames with that in it. And whats with the second explosion!? hah.. owned..
Did you even bother reading the damned article? There is a video, the judicial watchdog group publicly admitted that there was a plane flown into the building... This watchdog group was purporting the exact same nonsensical conspiracy crap people are spewing on this board... Now THEY have come out and said it was a plane crash, why won't you?
If you so choose to live in a deluded fantasy world where conspiracies abound, then fine, do so, but don't make an ass out of yourself in the name of reason, it only makes you look like a complete idiot... Your theory has NO PROOF, yet the mainstream (and correct theory) theory HAS PROOF...
You must be a higher-up at the NORAD center at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, or maybe you must be a higher-up member of a terrorist group that has inside knowledge, I mean, this is the only way you could assuredly make these claims, right?
No, in the end you are just a quasi-intellect trying to sound smart, and looking like a fool in the process...
/carry_on
Did you even bother watching the damned video?
Uhhh, yeah... And even for it being a crappy surveillance video, the blur flying at a couple hundred mph sure looked like a plane to me...
Comments
I'm done arguing with you. I will not attempt any further discussion. You deliberately turn a blind eye to any evidence presented. Your above statements about the towers and the size of the pentagon hole show that you have studied only what conforms to your fantasy. There were direct links to articles explaining how heat and structure loss caused the collapses. How similes, such as "LIKE an explosion" does not equal "a bomb."
My links provided pictures of the wreckage at the pentagon that conspiracy nuts say supposedly wasn't there. It discusses the 12/16 ft. hole myth and shows photos of the 75 ft. hole! It shows how the authors of loose change know jack crap about 757 engines and how they use that lack of knowledge. It shows how he claims the smoke wasn't black (the signifigance is explained in the article) but yet, shortly later shows an image of the Pentagon roaring with fire and pouring out BLACK smoke. In his own video...
All of these contradictions and more are pointed out. All of his lack of knowledge on the relevant scientific disciplines he tries to comment on, are pointed out. His misquotes. His taking quotes out of text. His somehow equating "explosions" with the unquestionable proof of bombs! His blantant use of photos at angles to bolster his arguement. Example, the use of photos showing a side of the WTC 7 with only smoke. Nevermind, the photos of the otherside of the WTC 7 that show structural damage and a blazing fire....Why not show those photos? Many more examples of deliberate ommission. All this is shown in black and white by what I linked. Photos, qualified and respected jounals, universities, Engineers of the relevant disciplines. And yet, you still repeated the same myths. I challenge you to scroll up and read those links slowly and deliberately. Study the photos. Save yourself from this delusional fantasy world.
Having gotten that off my chest, I'll refrain from debating you any longer. It's pointless. You are too far entrenched in your fantasy.
All I can say is "Independence Day" was more believable!!! G*D D*MN!T. This is some smoking crack views.
and before you judge me, I am NOT a Bush supporter. I am anti government (in the form we have it) and I am disappointed in every aspect of our government since the late 1980's, but this is dumb. I cannot describe it any better. I could have come up with the same video if I had the same F#cking time this d&mb*ass had!
If I knew who this ignorant savage was I would make him drink my urine.
ignore everything ixontes said... I see nothing to prove OR disprove this video, not one single piece of evidence. This video has just as much physical evidence as the actual government explanations, and therefore is very nice to see.
I, although Canadian, think people need to take more initiative like this to get the word out on what they believe in, and this video definately tried its best to piece together the lies (or lets say "not full truths" which are still lies) that the US government has spewed to the people.
Good job to the people who put time into this, and to any nay sayers... take a look in the mirror, because at least this one makes sense. What the government said could have been invented by a 6 year old better than what they said happened
I knew this from the time it happened.
But I was not sure, at the time, who was responsible untill they took advantage of it to attack other countries.
edit: if these people who are aruging the video would REALLY watch it.. they wouldn't be able to argue.
Lots of valid sounding points, I'm just not convinced it was the gov. But I would not put it past any person looking to gain a substantial amount of money to come up with idiotic plots in order to achieve that goal.
I do believe however that the gov. had prior knowledge of the attacks in some form or another but were not sure or prepared to stop them for some reason. Why? Who knows...but I doubt very highly that C.I.A is so stupid they didnt know this beforehand ( which you can watch tv and see the reports put on the presidents desk informing him of such acts ).
The thing is people are still looking for someone to hate for all that it seems, when maybe reguardless of what any terrorist or gov. says/thinks/claims responsibility for or points the finger at, that could have been any looney on any given day who decided he wanted to deface mankind yet again and show he could get away with it. Sad but true.
I'm not sure who made the video, but that person did some great research and put together one hell of a plot.
Hmmmm about those explosions... You guys DO know that explosions are not an exact science right, that we lack full understanding of them, right, that iron can explode, right, that dust can create explosions, right?
Yes it was all a big conspiracy, there were no planes, heck no one even died... It's all been directed by Steven Spielberg and has been the War of the Worlds part II...
But then again judging from the amount of people actually buying this stuff over their visual observations of the day itself gave me a great idea, the video of the big conspiracy which is your employer handing you your salary is in fact a government act to control your minds will be available through google vids soon included are instructions on how to free yourself by donating your salary every month to my foundation against salary mind control.
Yes....all the intelligent individuals from all the countries around the world were fooled.....but some poster from mmorpg and this video some how all makes it clear that it was indeed a BIG conspiracy....WOW.
*snickers*
......*laughs some more*
I have watched the video in it's entirety three times. Well, actually the first version 2x and the second version 1x. I've also read the transcripts and or documents quoted by Loose Change along with about a half a dozen other "conspiracy theories" that are similar to Loose Change. There is plenty of information in that video that is marginal at best along with major errors in reasoning.
I still submit that anyone who wholeheartedly believes one side or the other is not looking at the whole picture. The conspiracy theorists make glaring errors by relying on misquotes, bad science assumptions, and deceptive visual techniques in order to convince you that their argument is "fact." On the other hand, the government makes similar errors, the most noteworthy being that they have not released the reams of video footage that allegedly still exists from several locations in NYC and the Pentagon.
I am not going to go into detail about every single line item that is wrong with each theory. I did that 4-5 months ago when this subject first came up on these boards. Suffice to say that by merely using standardized critical thinking and analysis, you can debunk a majority of the claims of boths sides. What does that mean? It means that both sides fail to provide enough analytical steps supported by evidence to reach the conclusions they reach.
Yep, George Bush flew the planes into the towers by remote, we never landed on the moon, Oswald was only a distraction, Jesus lived in the suburbs with his wife and kids and playing the Beatles White album backwards lets you communicate with your dark master.
You are all idiots.
1) I have no doubt in my mind that United 93 was not an act of heroism. While I don't know if it ended up in Cleveland, I sure as hell know that some people didn't decide to crash it down in order to save the White House. Yeah, right, this is clearly an episode of 24, and everyone on United 93 is Jack Bauer. Especially given that such a percent of the population dilikes George Bush, suddenly they'd be willing to crash it in the middle of a field to save the man? Right...they wouldn't vote for him, but they'd happily and willingly sacrifice their lives for him. My ass...
2) I don't have any difficult believing that this is indeed one of the largest scandals in the history of any government to ever exist. I can't think of any other regime or government in which literally EVERY key figurehead has "stepped down". Seriously, if your own cabinet doesn't support you or believe you, your own people don't support you or believe you (by the way, Bush had a 4% approval rating 2 days ago on NBC news), and most of the world questions your actions and decisions, I certainly wouldn't put a scandal past the President.
3) Considering we had Bin Laden trapped in some caves, with Special Forces surrounding him, I fail to believe he just slipped under the radar. He didn't get away unless we wanted him to get away. It also would further allow Bush and his regime to state that Bin Laden is working with so and so...such as Saddam Hussein and Iraq, which we also invaded.
Say what you want, but the means and the motives are all there. I'm not trying to be a paranoid fanboi of the video, but even if you look at this video in the simplest terms, I think it's a lot easier to side with the conspiracy than the government.
"Who has more to lose or to gain by this scandal?"
Just think about that...what does a fireman get from lying, or a humble steelworker, or even a janitor? What do they gain from lying? The one guy got fired for speaking out, countless firemen died, and the janitor is still pushing a mop.
What has Bush gained? Insurmountable power, complete military authority, the right to spy and harass all Americans with no judicial prerequisites, an empowered cabinet, finances, and the right to act without any sort of checks or balances.
I don't have any problem seeing the real winner from this whole cherade, but that's just my 2 cents.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I couldn't have said this any better, Good job Cymdai, i commend you :}
simple as it gets, it's true what you said.
Reminder of links that completely demolish this crap. You conspiracy folks don't do alot of critical think, do you? Yeah, I know....These links rely on hard science and evidence. Something that boggles the simple minds of conspiracy nutjobs.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y
http://media2.uploadjar.com/uploads/911_loose_change_vie15a3eb.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wtc/index.htm#Engineering%20and%20Construction
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
Sure, Hussein was a horrible human being, but we invaded there under false pretenses. We went there to find Bin Laden, and Bush didn't have the public support, so he proceeded to falsely create rumors of bio-chemical weapons being produced (None of which were ever found, and several members of Bushs cabinet even suggested that they lied about there ever being chemical weapons, solely for the purpose of gaining public support for an invasion of Iraq)
I've read some of your facts Lardmouth, and I agree with some of them. I'm not saying either side is completely right in this arguement. In my opinion, you have to look at the extremists' theories, the government's theories, and take both with a grain of salt. Come to your own conclusion somewhere in the middle.
I personally DO believe 9/11 was facilitated by the government. I just do not believe everything in that video is accuraye. I don't believe the United 93 segment, about hiding passengers in the NASA building. I don't believe a plane crashed into the Pentagon. I sure as hell don't believe Bush and his cabinet were in the dark as to what was happening, and I sure as hell don't believe this whole thing was initiated for other bank's gold bullion.
In my opinion, it was a ploy by the Bush admninstration to gain public support for war on the middle east. Bush got to avenge his daddy, by capturing Hussein, we got closer to that precious oil, we lost numerous freedoms in the promise of security (which can never be achieved, people are only as safe as they are led to believe they actually are). Bush also has received near-god status politically and militarily, as he controls nearly everything with little to no rebuttal from anyone.
The fact is, if it wasn't some government conspiracy, then we have the most inept, incapable officials ever to take office running the United States, because I fail to believe that we can invade 2 countries and practically occupy them within weeks, yet with all the money and manpower in the world, we are unable to find Bin Laden. Yet we managed to find Hussein hiding in a "spiderhole" in the middle of nowhere.
Right...
There were some dark motives at work here, and I don't pretend to know what they were, but anyone who would believe our government is incapable of devious scandals and coverups, especially after things like the Watergate scandal, is truly ignorant.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
To Alex and all the rest of you nutjobs:
PWNED
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur
To Alex and all the rest of you nutjobs:
PWNED
edit: Yeah.. that REALLY looks like a plane..
This is sad.. they released 5 frames with that in it.
And whats with the second explosion!? hah.. owned..
Did you even bother reading the damned article? There is a video, the judicial watchdog group publicly admitted that there was a plane flown into the building... This watchdog group was purporting the exact same nonsensical conspiracy crap people are spewing on this board... Now THEY have come out and said it was a plane crash, why won't you?
If you so choose to live in a deluded fantasy world where conspiracies abound, then fine, do so, but don't make an ass out of yourself in the name of reason, it only makes you look like a complete idiot... Your theory has NO PROOF, yet the mainstream (and correct theory) theory HAS PROOF...
You must be a higher-up at the NORAD center at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, or maybe you must be a higher-up member of a terrorist group that has inside knowledge, I mean, this is the only way you could assuredly make these claims, right?
No, in the end you are just a quasi-intellect trying to sound smart, and looking like a fool in the process...
/carry_on
Did you even bother reading the damned article? There is a video, the judicial watchdog group publicly admitted that there was a plane flown into the building... This watchdog group was purporting the exact same nonsensical conspiracy crap people are spewing on this board... Now THEY have come out and said it was a plane crash, why won't you?
If you so choose to live in a deluded fantasy world where conspiracies abound, then fine, do so, but don't make an ass out of yourself in the name of reason, it only makes you look like a complete idiot... Your theory has NO PROOF, yet the mainstream (and correct theory) theory HAS PROOF...
You must be a higher-up at the NORAD center at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, or maybe you must be a higher-up member of a terrorist group that has inside knowledge, I mean, this is the only way you could assuredly make these claims, right?
No, in the end you are just a quasi-intellect trying to sound smart, and looking like a fool in the process...
/carry_on
Did you even bother watching the damned video?
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Wow took them so many YEARs to finally completed the computer generated video. And still, the frame per second sux.
Even if it is real. How can you prove it was not a guided missle? Don't you know that the guided missles have wings etc. with a shape of just like a TINY plane?? The hole on the building definately was smaller than the size of the plane's wings. Why the building did not have the damage from the plane's wings? Where were the plane parts?
Did you even bother reading the damned article? There is a video, the judicial watchdog group publicly admitted that there was a plane flown into the building... This watchdog group was purporting the exact same nonsensical conspiracy crap people are spewing on this board... Now THEY have come out and said it was a plane crash, why won't you?
If you so choose to live in a deluded fantasy world where conspiracies abound, then fine, do so, but don't make an ass out of yourself in the name of reason, it only makes you look like a complete idiot... Your theory has NO PROOF, yet the mainstream (and correct theory) theory HAS PROOF...
You must be a higher-up at the NORAD center at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, or maybe you must be a higher-up member of a terrorist group that has inside knowledge, I mean, this is the only way you could assuredly make these claims, right?
No, in the end you are just a quasi-intellect trying to sound smart, and looking like a fool in the process...
/carry_on
Did you even bother watching the damned video?
Uhhh, yeah... And even for it being a crappy surveillance video, the blur flying at a couple hundred mph sure looked like a plane to me...
Let me guess Alex, still not convinced are you?
lol