Originally posted by Phoenixs 1. You talking about The Kal flight 902? Or the Kal flight 007? Those are the only 2 planes I know of that have been shot down by russian missiles. Kal flight 902, being damaged crash landing and everyone surviving. Kal flight 007, being shot down over the sea, noone surviving. But the reconstruction is pretty clear, I have a german magazine here with minute by minute reconstruction of the happenings.2. First of all. It wasn't that day. It was those days. It lasted from April 15 too June 4. According to the Chinese goverment there where between 400 and 800 civillians dead. And it's not a new thing that what the communists did, do, would be presented in the exact way it really happen(s)ed. After all it's the all consuming evil USA has hated for alot of years now.Noone says that a goverment doing illegal things can't happen or hasn't happened. But at this date there are no valuable evidence that something fishy happened 9/11. Regarding Iraq, Iran we all know what is going to happen next.
You mean you have German magazine that quotes from the US media? Like the history channel? (forgot the flight number. It's the one that being destoryed)
You mean the US media said that "according to the Chinese government ...." ?
And you mean it's not a new thing that US government try to make communists look SO horrible on daily basis? Pretty successful long term operation imo. Now as soon as the word "communist" pop up, everyone immediately relate it to the word "evil".
come on use your brain just a little. Everyone saw those tanks stopped and the first one tried to get around that guy twice before being stopped again. Nobody saw bloody dead bodies with soldiers firing their weapons on the same screen. According to the US offical report, there were over 1000 students killed at once, which obivously sounded like a masscare. Why didn't those tanks just crash that guy? +1 point to the 1000+ kills shouldn't make things any different?
Originally posted by AlexAmore Bill Clinton lied about a blow job and got impeached. Bush lies about WMDs in Iraq sets up a war and kills thousands of innocent people and soldiers, then changes the story to freeing Iraq when WMD failed. I don't think Bill Clinton is any good either (Not just because of the blowjob), just comparing. After repeated false sightings, both Tony Blair and George Bush proclaimed on 30 May that two trailers found in Iraq were mobile biological laboratories. "We have already found two trailers, both of which we believe were used for the production of biological weapons," said Mr Blair. Mr Bush went further: "Those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons - they're wrong. We found them." It is now almost certain that the vehicles were for the production of hydrogen for weather balloons, just as the Iraqis claimed - and that they were exported by Britain.
Well they were all working for the same goal in the first place. Just each of them had to complete only a different stage of the long term plan.
Old Bush started economy sanction to weaken Iraq. Clinton was bombing Iraqi defense on a daily basis. The monkey just made up an excuse that the "9/11 terrorists" are connected to the Iraq, and Iraq has WMD that will give to the "terrorists", and then he gave Iraq a final blow when Iraq had nothing left to defend themselves. It was the plan since the beginning.
After the monkey theories were proved wrong. It was easily changed to "operation Iraqi freedom" and easily being accepted by the majority of tiny brain club. Oh come on, Saddam was acting the same way all this time. And he was supported by the US government big time when he invaded Iran years ago.
Originally posted by lardmouth Ooooh, typical brainwashed American am I? Are all those engineers and engineering journals describing how the buildings fell also part of the Grand Conspiracy? Name me one structural engineer that has claimed and shown that the building fell due to bombs are some other braindead theory. One, just name one. I've provided a considerable amount of hard engineering science analysis regarding loss of structural integrity and heat led to the collapse. Can you do the same for your argument? Qualified analysis by qualified researchers in the relevant disciplines of science and engineering? No? But, I'm the brainwashed one!
all of those so called engineers are most likely to be payed by the gov to say what they said, you can't trust them too because they work for the gov, and they will deny that, because the price of betrayal is very expensive, and almost everyone will be ready to accept it.
so don't give me that crap about engineers, they weren't there in the first place, on top of that you're putting aside ALL of those witnesses who have been THERE when the towers collapsed, and taking the word of LIERS ? good for you, i wonder how you're keeping a stright face after that.
Let me summarize your quote. Don't let hard science get in the way of the "facts!" Surely, not every single structural engineer can be on the conspiracy pay fund, right? So, just name one that says, the tower didn't fall due to loss off structural integrity and the weaking of steel due to heat. Challenge is still out there. By the way, name one witness that said they saw bombs there. No, not someone saying an explosion, but a bomb. Because, of course they heard explosions. And please don't qoute someone using a simile such as "sounded like a bomb going off." You do know what a simile is right?
Btw, please don't deny the science if you haven't even read the links. If you have, please tell us which parts of the texts are scientifically unsound. And please explain why. Can you?
Originally posted by Jazia It seems the US government will do anything to reach their goals. The "many other lies" I mentioned above, I have 2 examples right here 1. The commerical plane being shot down by Soviet missle It did not even have any passager on it at all. It was all a plan that will turn out to be winning either way. In fact it had huge explosives on the plane and was targeting to blow up Soviet nuclear base. If the Soviets shoot it down, they will be blamed for being ruthless blood thirsty bad guys that killed hundreds innocent people, the people all over the world will hate them more. If they didn't shoot it down, the military base that plane was heading will not exist any more. But of course it would be "an accident". some interesting facts, the packages of the hundreds poor "passengers" were actualy tied together to avoid "disappear" in the ocean. certainly it worked out well, just look at the videos of angry protestors in the US.
2. Tiananmen Square "massacre" It never happened. Had first hand information from someone who passed the "massacre" spot twice that day. The smoke was tear gas. The people were running from tear gas. The injuried people were caused by pushing and being stepped after falling, and some people were throwing rocks around. facts you could see in the US, on TV news you could see that one line of tanks were blocked by that one Chinese man. And the first tank tried to get around him twice but had to stop because that guy blocked it again. (oh yeah the news added some more story of "people pulled him to 'safety' " which never was on the video. Why? because those tanks will crash him? ) WHY wouldn't they just add 1 more kill to their "massacre" which resaulted in "thousands dead students"? Sure you can say the media all over the world said the "massacre" did occur. In fact they were all quoted from the US media. Not to mention, there wasn't any video about the soldiers open fire and people fell down in blood on the same screen at all. It was all being told by the voice in the background by whoever was working for the media while all we saw was smoke and running people. Unfortunately, there were also videos about 2 of those tanks were burned alive with the soldiers dead, just because...there were crowds completely surrounded the tanks. They couldn't move, couldn't shoot, and they would be killed anyway if they go out. Another fact, from what I heard. In China, even the cops who shot the criminals who also had their weapon out, the cops will be questioned repeatly by their superiors afterwards about whether they fired at the right moment. A few cops lost their jobs for "shot too early". Many more were actually ... dead...because they were too afraid of shooting at someone who had their knife out. It is like common sense that it is impossible the soldiers will shoot the people over there, just like nobody will believe the soldiers will shoot people here. But of course the people here will believe totally that the soldiers over there will kill people without a second thought...thx to long term media influence. There are a million more long-term lies that are believed by majority. And every day, there are more new ones. Oh why would the US government do that? It is called long-term defame. To brainwash people to have the common "knowledge" of that the enemies of the US are big bad evil assholes. Same with "terrorists" this, "terrorists" that every day. Then bang, Iraq is gone. Iran will be the next. No matter what Iran do, they will be the next. It was all planned long time ago anyway.
Are you pulling our leg about the Tiananmen Square massacre? You have to be. Not even the Chinese government denies it happened. They just paint it as them doing what was needed to keep the country stable.
Originally posted by lardmouth Not even the Chinese government denies it happened.
Again, you missed the part "says the US media, then quoted by the world".
If you talk about thousands people went to protest, and the Chinese government sent troops try to scare them away after they don't leave for days. Yes that happened. And there were people throwing rocks at the troops. Yes there were people dead. But you missed the point that the US media said the Chinese troops fired into the crowd and killed over 1000 students all at once. That part was called "massacre". And it never happpened.
No, says the Chinese government. Their estimates are about 300 people. By the way, it's just termed as Tiananmen Square massacre. Because of the famous picture. Most of the dead did not die right there but in other places during the crackdown.
You mean the US government said the Chinese government said.
One thing you said is true, the people that died were from different places. But then again you missed the point, the whole "Tiananmen Square massacre" was reported as "soldiers fired into the peaceful protesting crowds and 1000+ students were killed". It is even on the text books here in the US.
What really happened was, the first wave soldiers went there did not even have weapons. Don't even argue with me on that one. Then there were people throwing rocks at the soldiers, and some were beating to death or burned alive. No soldier was dare to fight back. There were 67 soldiers killed, many more were injuried. Until they were giving command of fight back when only facing the deadly force. New reinforcemence were carrying weapons. The violence were taking place all over the city. If those people could kill 67 soldiers, they certainly were not students and they don't look so innocent to me. There were no where near that many people killed such as "over 1000 students" claimed by the US media which is controlled by the government.
One thing you don't know about China, laws were not so well protected. Fighting take places very often, and some people were beating to death does happen sometimes. Though of course it says it is illegal on paper. Some of them could get away with it. Armed soldiers and cops won't dare to open fire even when facing death themselves, unless they were giving a direct order which only happens to deal with specific extreme situations.
Obivously you believed the offcial US report due to the brainwash over the years. Even without that "massacre", your view on communist China wouldn't be any different. Oh anyone else feel it is stupid to always have a "communist" in front of those countries' names? It's just one of the condition reflect the government wanted to implant into your tiny brains. Just like as soon as you heard "terrorists", you think about the Middle East.
So many lies. Not saying other governments never make lies. It's just that all of others' lies combine won't be more than half of the US lies. Just like all others' military budget combine isn't more than the US's. And others are such "threats" to the world. Iran did not invade anyone in the past 600 years. Sure they are such a threat. While the US had 30+ wars after WWII, none of them took place anywhere near the US.
Ok, this is circular. How many did die? You give us what the chinese government estimates as the figure. Since my figures are "what the US says the Chinese say." You give us the official chinese government figure. And source. And yes, I do believe China to be a brutal and oppressive regime. Political prisoners, strict regulations on religion, free speach. Oh, and don't forget that the TS massacre wasn't just one day. It actually went on for weeks as part of a "crackdown." By the way, you did just admit that soldiers fired (semiautomatic weapons, btw) in crowds of protestors.
Btw, could you provide photos are videos of the soldiers being killed? It's a standard of prooff you hold, after all. You seem pretty sure that China's claim of 60+ soldiers dead is a fact.
Originally posted by Phoenixs 1. You talking about The Kal flight 902? Or the Kal flight 007? Those are the only 2 planes I know of that have been shot down by russian missiles. Kal flight 902, being damaged crash landing and everyone surviving. Kal flight 007, being shot down over the sea, noone surviving. But the reconstruction is pretty clear, I have a german magazine here with minute by minute reconstruction of the happenings.2. First of all. It wasn't that day. It was those days. It lasted from April 15 too June 4. According to the Chinese goverment there where between 400 and 800 civillians dead. And it's not a new thing that what the communists did, do, would be presented in the exact way it really happen(s)ed. After all it's the all consuming evil USA has hated for alot of years now.Noone says that a goverment doing illegal things can't happen or hasn't happened. But at this date there are no valuable evidence that something fishy happened 9/11. Regarding Iraq, Iran we all know what is going to happen next.
You mean you have German magazine that quotes from the US media? Like the history channel? (forgot the flight number. It's the one that being destoryed)
You mean the US media said that "according to the Chinese government ...." ?
And you mean it's not a new thing that US government try to make communists look SO horrible on daily basis? Pretty successful long term operation imo. Now as soon as the word "communist" pop up, everyone immediately relate it to the word "evil".
come on use your brain just a little. Everyone saw those tanks stopped and the first one tried to get around that guy twice before being stopped again. Nobody saw bloody dead bodies with soldiers firing their weapons on the same screen. According to the US offical report, there were over 1000 students killed at once, which obivously sounded like a masscare. Why didn't those tanks just crash that guy? +1 point to the 1000+ kills shouldn't make things any different?
The article I read was written by a guy called Cay Rademacher. It was based on the "international civil aircraft agency/commision", I translated that from german, not sure what it's called in English. What the pilots said, remaining family of the victims, and several other sources.
I had a typo here. Wouldn't became would The US goverment has always been twisting and turning what the communists did. It was, and to a certain degree still is the biggest enemy of USA. You can still see the results of it in americans today. Anything related to socialistic system is in a instance looked bad upon. I think you are wrong in your, "world media quotes US media". It might have been correct 30 years ago or so. But now we have independent media here. Most of the footage we see from Iraq etc is not filmed by US media, it's filmed by our media. I think it's quite different what we see here, and what you see. Us media is way more careful with showing pictures from Iraq, unless it's US troops helping kids ofcourse.
I'm using my brain all the time here. I never take anything for good fish, and I certainly don't believe anything that isn't presented with proper proof. I need proper proof. One of the reasons that I'm not religious, "It's God's will" just doesn't cut it for me. No matter if it's information from the goverment or the ones opposing the goverment. If one of the parts don't present valuable proof I can't believe them. Loose change doesn't provide valuable proof.
ob1sr, comeone you can't believe that everyone has been paid off. It wouldn't work. If people would have been stuck on information like this, someone would talk. Just think of it. Someone talking would propably go into the history books, being the person that exposed one of the biggest govermental fraud/terror acts ever. No money could buy fame like that. Some persons would take the bribe, but not everyone single one amongst thousands of persons, it's just not possible.
OMFG get over it. I live in Australia and we have bigger problems than 9/11. It was freakig ages ago! *yawn*But yeh... dumbass US auths probably set it up.[/b][/quote]
what exactly are the bigger problems in australia right now? just curious....
and I can't exactly "get over it" when both my aunt and uncle died in that crash and i was close to them
and the war in iraq, the invasion of afghanistan and the war that is about to happen with iran are closely tied to what happened that day 5 years ago
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
does it realy matter to count the dead? look at it this way, we are all going to die no matter what, no matter how long we live, even the earth planet have a lifespan, earth is getting closer to the sun with time and will collide with it, and NO there's no life on any other planet, even if there was we're not going to reach it.
I find certain irony in the demonization that they(The US Gov./US Media) did to the Chinese government through the happenings of what went on in Tiannamen square, to the coverup that went on over here when the Guv'ment went and took down all the branch davidians in waco.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by OneMuslim does it realy matter to count the dead? look at it this way, we are all going to die no matter what, no matter how long we live, even the earth planet have a lifespan, earth is getting closer to the sun with time and will collide with it, and NO there's no life on any other planet, even if there was we're not going to reach it. so yes, get over it, we are all dead people.
The earth is not getting closer to the Sun. The Sun however does have a lifespan (like all stars) and will eventualy become a red giant, swelling in size well beyond the current orbit of the Earth (engulfing it). This event is estimated to be billions of years into the future.
There are an estimated 100 billion stars in the milkyway galaxy... There are an estimated 500 billion galaxies in the Universe and you are qualified to say there is NO life on any other planet. You should at least leave room for the possibility.
As for the video... This video is guilty of twisting technical data to support its own message. This is nothing more than propoganda to the other extreme.
Here is an MIT Professor's take on why the towers remained standing and then later collapsed.
I could go on but I would be spending even more time discussing this ridiculous subject on a gaming sites off topic list.
If you don't understand the nature of science and are willing to accept others interpretations for events without checking the facts yourself, then you will believe what you want to. This video does nothing but stir up the uneducated and those prone to conspiracy theories.
Originally posted by lardmouth Btw, could you provide photos are videos of the soldiers being killed? It's a standard of prooff you hold, after all. You seem pretty sure that China's claim of 60+ soldiers dead is a fact.
That 67 soldiers were killed not only come from the information that claimed by the Chinese, but also the first time I heard this number was from a highschool history teacher when I was in the highschool(btw we are in the US in case you are confused). Of course he was one of the people believed the "massacre" took place with 1000+ students dead just like all the US media include our text book said. And yes I saw a few different videos of some of the soldiers were getting killed, include the part that 2 tanks were burned along with the soldiers inside while they were completely surronded by thousands of people. Also I saw the first wave of unarmed soldiers were beaten badly by the crowds while they weren't even fighting back with hands. I do not own those videos, nor they were from web sites. They were on tapes in fact. Now you want me to come up with many different old sources that were from many years ago. Which is quite impossible unless I waste lots of time(possibly money too) for you who I don't even know and don't even want to know.
Here to just give you something to think about it again
If you mean "according to Chinese authorities". Well, I think it is not that hard to add that part. If I own a media, I can say "according to Bush himself, he eats monkey brains for breakfast". Will you believe Bush ate monkey brains? Since he said it himself? I mean my newspaper said he said it himself? lol...
And check out the describition of that picture. Those tanks were actually stopped by that guy for a good half an hour. Don't you even have a little tiny bit doubts about the "massacre" that killed 1000+ people really happened or not while it is a fact that they wouldn't even kill this one guy who blocked their tanks for half an hour? (oh yeah, he was perfectly alive even after that. Because "he was pulled to 'safety' by others" according to our text book)
Impressive how the hardcore believers will keep using the little tiny bit of brains power they had left on making the messages from the government more believable to themselves. I can't even tell you how many lies are there. There are just way TOO many, and there are many more coming in every single day. Sure they aren't making lies for nothing. Everything has a purpose. In these cases, they have the long term use for such daily false information.
Bottomline, you hear the garbag of this country is bad, that country is evil, these people are the terrorists, we are the best of all good guys....etc. since the day you could talk. After many years of hearing such things on a daily basis, no way that most of you won't believe such garbag. These false information had become "common knowledge" of the majority people in this country.
Bottomline, you hear the garbag of this country is bad, that country is evil, these people are the terrorists, we are the best of all good guys....etc. since the day you could talk. After many years of hearing such things on a daily basis, no way that most of you won't believe such garbag. These false information had become "common knowledge" of the majority people in this country.
So Jazia, what should Americans be told as they grow up? Who's "truth" should be "forcefed" to us? Yours? You say everything Americans ever hear in life is garbage but offer nothing as a viable alternative. Your information is as much hearsay as what "US government media" uses. Just because you believe one explaination more than another does not mean that yours is more "true" when they are both based on eyewitness accounts (that conflict). You cannot assume that because 1 column of tanks decides not to kill 1 man that it would be impossible for others to kill hundreds in different circumstances. Your distrust of "US government news media" is blinding you just as much as you say "brainwashed Americans" are blinded.
Originally posted by xPaladin That said, let's talk counterargument:
That's Just Stupid - This video is a pragmatic approach to 9/11. Kinda biased, but very pragmatic. I like it because they make an excellent point in discussing how conspiracy theories are formulated. This is an effective set up for the next argument:
Remember kiddies, conspiracy whackos prey on the gullible and uninformed. The kind of "uninformed" that you believe everyone else to be.
Hopefully there's enough common sense in the PM article to shut some of you the hell up.
Admittedly the conspiracy whackos make some claims that are weak, but they are pretty similar to both the video and especially the PM article.
Popular mechanics do exactly the same thing that the theorists does, only the other way around.
Above all they are not in any way saying they are right, but rather that the other side is wrong, an age old technique when you have very little fact, even though they use the word FACT, a lot I do no see it as any more fact then the other guys are claimgin to have, I would say less.
Not even from the US, ( swedish to be exact ) I have no agenda really to have either side being right or wrong, but I find it hard to believe things happened as they are described.
Regardless of who is guilty there is more here then just thoose planes crashing, that must be obvious?
Whoever supports these theories are pissing on the corpses of the dead you say?
And by that very sentence you do the exact same thing in the eyes of everyone who do not thinks like you.
Why must there be pissing in either direction?
In any criminal investigation the very first step is to figure out who had the most to gain by said crime, the answer to that one would be obvious as well.
I would like to blame Norway really, cause they are the ones that have made HUGE profits on this thing, not affected by the downsides, but still sitting on some of the largest oil reserves in the world, kinda doubt they would be able to pull this off though...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Jazia, what should Americans be told as they grow up? Who's "truth" should be "forcefed" to us? Yours? You say everything Americans ever hear in life is garbage but offer nothing as a viable alternative. Your information is as much hearsay as what "US government media" uses. Just because you believe one explaination more than another does not mean that yours is more "true" when they are both based on eyewitness accounts (that conflict). You cannot assume that because 1 column of tanks decides not to kill 1 man that it would be impossible for others to kill hundreds in different circumstances. Your distrust of "US government news media" is blinding you just as much as you say "brainwashed Americans" are blinded.
It's not that simple like you said "believe one explaination more than another". The ones you believe in are nothing but widely spreaded stories by the government without even much facts in it. It does not seem any of you hardcore believers of the government could come up with a decent explaination of why those tanks did not kill that 1 guy while they could kill... 1000+ others? You can't even make a simple judgement on your own any more.
About which "truth" you should believe in, use your own brain. Have a clear mind about what is a "fact", what is a "story". Question every story you were told. Because they are nothing but stories of others unless you can prove them true with obivous facts. In many cases, you will have to come up with your own explainations instead of simply take in a story made up by others.
For example, in the case of 9/11. The facts are, WTC were hit by planes, and later they collapsed completely with many more explosions took place far away from the fire. The Pentagon had an explosion and had a small hole that never can fit a plane into it. There was no plane parts at all. Nor anybody really saw a plane the claimed size. Guided missle does have the shape of a TINY plane, and hard to tell the difference with that kind of speed and close range.
The stories are, The terrorists of Osama Bin Ladan were behind it. The buildings collapsed because of the fire. The Pentagon was hit by a big plane.
In the case of Tiananmen Square Massacre, The facts are, There were protestors. There were armies. There were people dead and injuried. There was 1 guy stopped the tanks, and the first tank tried to get around him twice before being stopped again, then they stuck there for quite a while before that guy was pulled away.
The stories are, The army were given order and fired into thousands of peaceful students and killed over 1000 right on the same spot at once. Which is a massacre.
In the case of Iraq The facts are, Saddam is a dictator, and he is always like that. Saddam had invaded Iran years ago and fought a long war, while the US government was totally supporting him. He had also invaded Kuwait in Gulf War.
The stories are, He had connection to the 9/11 "terrorists". He had WMD. He will give the WMD to the terrorists. He will use the WMD to destory the world. He must be stopped and replaced now. The US government sent troops to "save" Kuwait. The US government sent troops to "free" Iraqi people. Iraqis "love" the Americans, and wanted their troops to "free" them with an invasion.
I can go on forever.
You hardcore believers already have your "common knowledge" being shaped by the government. Now you only want to hear the things that fit the "common knowledge", and hate to hear the things that are conflicting with them just because "that doesn't sound right".
I would like to blame Norway really, cause they are the ones that have made HUGE profits on this thing, not affected by the downsides, but still sitting on some of the largest oil reserves in the world, kinda doubt they would be able to pull this off though...
Haha I think the Primeminister and his compadres just started working on their media spin to dismiss all you claims, as false accusations from a jealous swede.
Your right. Norway makes huge profits on the american wars and war mongering. Back when the nuclear attack rumors/plans where leaked and the oil prices wen't up, Norway gained 80 billion kr extra.
Originally posted by Phoenixs Haha I think the Primeminister and his compadres just started working on their media spin to dismiss all you claims, as false accusations from a jealous swede.
Hehe, I am pretty sure there are pre-made plans for pretty much any situations in both countries.
Norway and Sweden are a bit like Canada and the US, they make fun and jokes about each other to hide their true feelings
Had it been a schoolyard Sweden would be pulling Norways hair about now, hehe..
Oops, a bit of topic, then again this thread needed some löööve..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jazia, you are a lost cause just like Alexamore. You cannot read, you cannot comprehend, you cannot grasp points of view that are not your own. Your only defense is that the opposite point of view is comprised of idiots and liars, and you support your claims with "facts" from hearsay articles on the internet. The problem becomes that you cannot accept that an educated and intelligent person could possibly have come to a conclusion opposite of yours without having fallen victim to lies, brainwashing, or manipulation. I could speculate all day as to why you have this problem, but I will leave that to your therapist.
You and Alexamore can believe what you want, but the bottom line is that other people can form educated opinions opposite of yours and not be "stupid or brainwashed."
Lastly, do not assume that I believe the "stories" you listed just because I am in opposition of your opinion. I am in opposition of anyone that claims to have all the answers based on limited knowledge of any true facts. Not only that, but you don't even have all your "facts" and "stories" straight.
Comments
You mean you have German magazine that quotes from the US media? Like the history channel?
(forgot the flight number. It's the one that being destoryed)
You mean the US media said that "according to the Chinese government ...." ?
And you mean it's not a new thing that US government try to make communists look SO horrible on daily basis? Pretty successful long term operation imo. Now as soon as the word "communist" pop up, everyone immediately relate it to the word "evil".
come on use your brain just a little. Everyone saw those tanks stopped and the first one tried to get around that guy twice before being stopped again. Nobody saw bloody dead bodies with soldiers firing their weapons on the same screen. According to the US offical report, there were over 1000 students killed at once, which obivously sounded like a masscare. Why didn't those tanks just crash that guy? +1 point to the 1000+ kills shouldn't make things any different?
Well they were all working for the same goal in the first place. Just each of them had to complete only a different stage of the long term plan.
Old Bush started economy sanction to weaken Iraq. Clinton was bombing Iraqi defense on a daily basis. The monkey just made up an excuse that the "9/11 terrorists" are connected to the Iraq, and Iraq has WMD that will give to the "terrorists", and then he gave Iraq a final blow when Iraq had nothing left to defend themselves. It was the plan since the beginning.
After the monkey theories were proved wrong. It was easily changed to "operation Iraqi freedom" and easily being accepted by the majority of tiny brain club. Oh come on, Saddam was acting the same way all this time. And he was supported by the US government big time when he invaded Iran years ago.
all of those so called engineers are most likely to be payed by the gov to say what they said, you can't trust them too because they work for the gov, and they will deny that, because the price of betrayal is very expensive, and almost everyone will be ready to accept it.
so don't give me that crap about engineers, they weren't there in the first place, on top of that you're putting aside ALL of those witnesses who have been THERE when the towers collapsed, and taking the word of LIERS ? good for you, i wonder how you're keeping a stright face after that.
Let me summarize your quote. Don't let hard science get in the way of the "facts!" Surely, not every single structural engineer can be on the conspiracy pay fund, right? So, just name one that says, the tower didn't fall due to loss off structural integrity and the weaking of steel due to heat. Challenge is still out there. By the way, name one witness that said they saw bombs there. No, not someone saying an explosion, but a bomb. Because, of course they heard explosions. And please don't qoute someone using a simile such as "sounded like a bomb going off." You do know what a simile is right?
Btw, please don't deny the science if you haven't even read the links. If you have, please tell us which parts of the texts are scientifically unsound. And please explain why. Can you?
Again, you missed the part "says the US media, then quoted by the world".
If you talk about thousands people went to protest, and the Chinese government sent troops try to scare them away after they don't leave for days. Yes that happened. And there were people throwing rocks at the troops. Yes there were people dead. But you missed the point that the US media said the Chinese troops fired into the crowd and killed over 1000 students all at once. That part was called "massacre". And it never happpened.
After all, it is just one of the a million lies.
No, says the Chinese government. Their estimates are about 300 people. By the way, it's just termed as Tiananmen Square massacre. Because of the famous picture. Most of the dead did not die right there but in other places during the crackdown.
You mean the US government said the Chinese government said.
One thing you said is true, the people that died were from different places. But then again you missed the point, the whole "Tiananmen Square massacre" was reported as "soldiers fired into the peaceful protesting crowds and 1000+ students were killed". It is even on the text books here in the US.
What really happened was, the first wave soldiers went there did not even have weapons. Don't even argue with me on that one. Then there were people throwing rocks at the soldiers, and some were beating to death or burned alive. No soldier was dare to fight back. There were 67 soldiers killed, many more were injuried. Until they were giving command of fight back when only facing the deadly force. New reinforcemence were carrying weapons. The violence were taking place all over the city. If those people could kill 67 soldiers, they certainly were not students and they don't look so innocent to me. There were no where near that many people killed such as "over 1000 students" claimed by the US media which is controlled by the government.
One thing you don't know about China, laws were not so well protected. Fighting take places very often, and some people were beating to death does happen sometimes. Though of course it says it is illegal on paper. Some of them could get away with it. Armed soldiers and cops won't dare to open fire even when facing death themselves, unless they were giving a direct order which only happens to deal with specific extreme situations.
Obivously you believed the offcial US report due to the brainwash over the years. Even without that "massacre", your view on communist China wouldn't be any different. Oh anyone else feel it is stupid to always have a "communist" in front of those countries' names? It's just one of the condition reflect the government wanted to implant into your tiny brains. Just like as soon as you heard "terrorists", you think about the Middle East.
So many lies. Not saying other governments never make lies. It's just that all of others' lies combine won't be more than half of the US lies. Just like all others' military budget combine isn't more than the US's. And others are such "threats" to the world.
Iran did not invade anyone in the past 600 years. Sure they are such a threat. While the US had 30+ wars after WWII, none of them took place anywhere near the US.
Ok, this is circular. How many did die? You give us what the chinese government estimates as the figure. Since my figures are "what the US says the Chinese say." You give us the official chinese government figure. And source. And yes, I do believe China to be a brutal and oppressive regime. Political prisoners, strict regulations on religion, free speach. Oh, and don't forget that the TS massacre wasn't just one day. It actually went on for weeks as part of a "crackdown." By the way, you did just admit that soldiers fired (semiautomatic weapons, btw) in crowds of protestors.
I had a typo here. Wouldn't became would
I'm using my brain all the time here. I never take anything for good fish, and I certainly don't believe anything that isn't presented with proper proof. I need proper proof. One of the reasons that I'm not religious, "It's God's will" just doesn't cut it for me. No matter if it's information from the goverment or the ones opposing the goverment. If one of the parts don't present valuable proof I can't believe them. Loose change doesn't provide valuable proof.
ob1sr, comeone you can't believe that everyone has been paid off. It wouldn't work. If people would have been stuck on information like this, someone would talk. Just think of it. Someone talking would propably go into the history books, being the person that exposed one of the biggest govermental fraud/terror acts ever. No money could buy fame like that. Some persons would take the bribe, but not everyone single one amongst thousands of persons, it's just not possible.
[quote]Originally posted by Zythyl
[b]
Originally posted by Jazia
check out this video
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848]
OMFG get over it. I live in Australia and we have bigger problems than 9/11. It was freakig ages ago! *yawn*But yeh... dumbass US auths probably set it up.[/b][/quote]
what exactly are the bigger problems in australia right now? just curious....
and I can't exactly "get over it" when both my aunt and uncle died in that crash and i was close to them
and the war in iraq, the invasion of afghanistan and the war that is about to happen with iran are closely tied to what happened that day 5 years ago
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
does it realy matter to count the dead? look at it this way, we are all going to die no matter what, no matter how long we live, even the earth planet have a lifespan, earth is getting closer to the sun with time and will collide with it, and NO there's no life on any other planet, even if there was we're not going to reach it.
so yes, get over it, we are all dead people.
I find certain irony in the demonization that they(The US Gov./US Media) did to the Chinese government through the happenings of what went on in Tiannamen square, to the coverup that went on over here when the Guv'ment went and took down all the branch davidians in waco.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
The earth is not getting closer to the Sun. The Sun however does have a lifespan (like all stars) and will eventualy become a red giant, swelling in size well beyond the current orbit of the Earth (engulfing it). This event is estimated to be billions of years into the future.
There are an estimated 100 billion stars in the milkyway galaxy... There are an estimated 500 billion galaxies in the Universe and you are qualified to say there is NO life on any other planet. You should at least leave room for the possibility.
As for the video... This video is guilty of twisting technical data to support its own message. This is nothing more than propoganda to the other extreme.
Here is an MIT Professor's take on why the towers remained standing and then later collapsed.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse2.html
I have watched aluminum cans melt and disapear in camp fire. Aluminum melts at 1220.666 °F. I have even been able to melt glass in a campfire.
So right away when the Narator tries to tell me that you cant melt aluminum with jet fuel I have to suspect this film is biased.
If you watched that video, read this:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html
I could go on but I would be spending even more time discussing this ridiculous subject on a gaming sites off topic list.
If you don't understand the nature of science and are willing to accept others interpretations for events without checking the facts yourself, then you will believe what you want to. This video does nothing but stir up the uneducated and those prone to conspiracy theories.
That 67 soldiers were killed not only come from the information that claimed by the Chinese, but also the first time I heard this number was from a highschool history teacher when I was in the highschool(btw we are in the US in case you are confused). Of course he was one of the people believed the "massacre" took place with 1000+ students dead just like all the US media include our text book said. And yes I saw a few different videos of some of the soldiers were getting killed, include the part that 2 tanks were burned along with the soldiers inside while they were completely surronded by thousands of people. Also I saw the first wave of unarmed soldiers were beaten badly by the crowds while they weren't even fighting back with hands. I do not own those videos, nor they were from web sites. They were on tapes in fact. Now you want me to come up with many different old sources that were from many years ago. Which is quite impossible unless I waste lots of time(possibly money too) for you who I don't even know and don't even want to know.
Here to just give you something to think about it again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
If you mean "according to Chinese authorities". Well, I think it is not that hard to add that part. If I own a media, I can say "according to Bush himself, he eats monkey brains for breakfast". Will you believe Bush ate monkey brains? Since he said it himself? I mean my newspaper said he said it himself? lol...
And check out the describition of that picture. Those tanks were actually stopped by that guy for a good half an hour. Don't you even have a little tiny bit doubts about the "massacre" that killed 1000+ people really happened or not while it is a fact that they wouldn't even kill this one guy who blocked their tanks for half an hour? (oh yeah, he was perfectly alive even after that. Because "he was pulled to 'safety' by others" according to our text book)
Impressive how the hardcore believers will keep using the little tiny bit of brains power they had left on making the messages from the government more believable to themselves. I can't even tell you how many lies are there. There are just way TOO many, and there are many more coming in every single day. Sure they aren't making lies for nothing. Everything has a purpose. In these cases, they have the long term use for such daily false information.
Bottomline, you hear the garbag of this country is bad, that country is evil, these people are the terrorists, we are the best of all good guys....etc. since the day you could talk. After many years of hearing such things on a daily basis, no way that most of you won't believe such garbag. These false information had become "common knowledge" of the majority people in this country.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Two words:
Crop Circles
It's not that simple like you said "believe one explaination more than another". The ones you believe in are nothing but widely spreaded stories by the government without even much facts in it. It does not seem any of you hardcore believers of the government could come up with a decent explaination of why those tanks did not kill that 1 guy while they could kill... 1000+ others?
You can't even make a simple judgement on your own any more.
About which "truth" you should believe in, use your own brain. Have a clear mind about what is a "fact", what is a "story". Question every story you were told. Because they are nothing but stories of others unless you can prove them true with obivous facts. In many cases, you will have to come up with your own explainations instead of simply take in a story made up by others.
For example, in the case of 9/11.
The facts are,
WTC were hit by planes, and later they collapsed completely with many more explosions took place far away from the fire. The Pentagon had an explosion and had a small hole that never can fit a plane into it. There was no plane parts at all. Nor anybody really saw a plane the claimed size. Guided missle does have the shape of a TINY plane, and hard to tell the difference with that kind of speed and close range.
The stories are,
The terrorists of Osama Bin Ladan were behind it. The buildings collapsed because of the fire. The Pentagon was hit by a big plane.
In the case of Tiananmen Square Massacre,
The facts are,
There were protestors. There were armies. There were people dead and injuried. There was 1 guy stopped the tanks, and the first tank tried to get around him twice before being stopped again, then they stuck there for quite a while before that guy was pulled away.
The stories are,
The army were given order and fired into thousands of peaceful students and killed over 1000 right on the same spot at once. Which is a massacre.
In the case of Iraq
The facts are,
Saddam is a dictator, and he is always like that.
Saddam had invaded Iran years ago and fought a long war, while the US government was totally supporting him.
He had also invaded Kuwait in Gulf War.
The stories are,
He had connection to the 9/11 "terrorists".
He had WMD.
He will give the WMD to the terrorists.
He will use the WMD to destory the world.
He must be stopped and replaced now.
The US government sent troops to "save" Kuwait.
The US government sent troops to "free" Iraqi people.
Iraqis "love" the Americans, and wanted their troops to "free" them with an invasion.
I can go on forever.
You hardcore believers already have your "common knowledge" being shaped by the government.
Now you only want to hear the things that fit the "common knowledge", and hate to hear the things that are conflicting with them just because "that doesn't sound right".
Your right. Norway makes huge profits on the american wars and war mongering. Back when the nuclear attack rumors/plans where leaked and the oil prices wen't up, Norway gained 80 billion kr extra.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Jazia, you are a lost cause just like Alexamore. You cannot read, you cannot comprehend, you cannot grasp points of view that are not your own. Your only defense is that the opposite point of view is comprised of idiots and liars, and you support your claims with "facts" from hearsay articles on the internet. The problem becomes that you cannot accept that an educated and intelligent person could possibly have come to a conclusion opposite of yours without having fallen victim to lies, brainwashing, or manipulation. I could speculate all day as to why you have this problem, but I will leave that to your therapist.
You and Alexamore can believe what you want, but the bottom line is that other people can form educated opinions opposite of yours and not be "stupid or brainwashed."
Lastly, do not assume that I believe the "stories" you listed just because I am in opposition of your opinion. I am in opposition of anyone that claims to have all the answers based on limited knowledge of any true facts. Not only that, but you don't even have all your "facts" and "stories" straight.