Originally posted by GRIMACHU PvP IS about taking a hefty shit over other people's fun, about being competetive, about winning. These things are incompatible with people who actually play for the RPG aspect, which is cooperative.
This wouldn't be a problem if companies didn't keep trying to make PvPers and PvE players play in the same 'space'.
Don't lump PVPers into the PKers. I know some people who love PVP and they do not respect Pkers.
When people say I like to have a good one on one fight against an even or more skilled opponent that is great. When they are saying many other things that pvp players like that is great. But if they then say something like "real PVP" must have looting, then they have discounted all the noble claims and are showing that their fun is taking stuff from other players and those noble claims mean nothing but posturing.
It would be great to see a group of shrinks evaluate such a person in that context to see what they come up with.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU PvP IS about taking a hefty shit over other people's fun, about being competetive, about winning. These things are incompatible with people who actually play for the RPG aspect, which is cooperative.
This wouldn't be a problem if companies didn't keep trying to make PvPers and PvE players play in the same 'space'.
no, that Player Killing, which is an entirely different thing. PvP is about being competitive, but not about winning or losing, andf certainly not about ruining anothers fun. if you lose in a fair fight, you pick yourself up and get better, if you win you help the other guy up and continue on your way without gloating. Win or lose, many people have fun in these fights, since your opponent is much smarter than any mob.
Now on the other side of the coin is whats known as ganking or player killing, taking the advantage in a situation where one clearly has an overwhelming upper hand, be it because of numbers, level, or simply circumstances (such as player A waiting for player B to be nearly killed by boss X) PKs are on the whole quite unwelcome even among PvPers.
Unfortunately, the recent turn of events has affected all of us, not just the select few gamers who you actually have a complaint about. So, congratulations upon your victory, an excellent job of nuking the farmland to oblivion to get rid of the bandits.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
I agree with you. It's better to have that choice than not. Now they designers will just have to come up with some more emotes these hardcore morons can use, when you refuse to fight them...the "spit" and "laugh" emotes don't cut it anymore.
Originally posted by RollinDutch Open PvP with looting isnt for the PvPers so much as its for the people who provide for the market.
Not accpording to every single 'hardcore' PVPer who posts here; full looting provides the 'consequences' that makes PVP not 'pointless' for them. I have yet to see even a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games to practice as a crafter. Plus the two aren't really related; you can easily have a full-loot game where most gear is from PVE drops, or a game where equipment permanently decays over tiem or from use but isn't looted.
I don't really see how grinding to replace the gear that I lost, which is what you end up doing in 'full-loot' games, is supposed to be better than grinding for a better set of gear in a PVE game. At least in the PVE option I'm going for something new instead of just getting back to where I was. How about... you get your gear, then you go fight with it and don't lose it, and get to engage in fun PVP fights instead of boring grinding? Or you get loot drops from other players but don't actually make them lose stuff? Either of those sound far better than grind-oriented systems.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game.
The highlighted sentence says it all, doesn't it?
The very fact that you have absolutely no idea of how 'real' UO-style pvp operated, yet you still think you've earned the right to call players who have undoubtably experienced more in terms of gaming/pvp "1337 kiddies".
We 'real' gamers don't ask that carebears play with us, we ask that we at least HAVE a game for US to play. You guys can grind all you wish, /enable pvp all you wish, have intercourse with other men all you wish, we couldn't care less. I know i'd much rather be gaming with "1337 kiddies" than obnoxious twits like you sir.
There are alot of PVP games out there. Hell UO is still there and they are even upgrading the graphic on it soon. SO play yer dang PVP. Whats the problem? If there were enough of you to support a Total PVP, corpse looting gankfest like you seem to want Im sure some dev would be making it. The thing is if a dev did make such a game you wouldnt see us "carebears" whining and crying about that game. We just wouldnt support it with our money. If you dont like Our PVE games dont support it with your money.
Originally posted by Voodude There are alot of PVP games out there. Hell UO is still there and they are even upgrading the graphic on it soon. SO play yer dang PVP. Whats the problem? If there were enough of you to support a Total PVP, corpse looting gankfest like you seem to want Im sure some dev would be making it. The thing is if a dev did make such a game you wouldnt see us "carebears" whining and crying about that game. We just wouldnt support it with our money. If you dont like Our PVE games dont support it with your money.
Are you being serious? Are you honestly stating that current day UO is a 'hardcore pvp' game? UO is now just about THE most carebearafied game out there! It makes WoW look... good! (REALLY takes some doing).
There ARE no real PvP games out there, this is our point! Companies are too afraid to create a game whereby people can upset others in real life. Why? Because they are afraid of the sheer number of innevitable complaints they'll receive from the 'curious' carebear community that'll no doubt flood the game to see what all the fuss is about.
There is a market out there for real, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. It may be smaller, but that simply puts it in a niche position, which is actually a very strong position at the moment. This is why Eve is currently in a great position, and has so many LOYAL fans that truely love the game to bits.
You may ask, why aren't I playing Eve then? Well, I am. It's certainly not as exciting as UO used to be, but it's the closest I can get to a fun game at the moment.
Originally posted by Hohbein Originally posted by Voodude There are alot of PVP games out there. Hell UO is still there and they are even upgrading the graphic on it soon. SO play yer dang PVP. Whats the problem? If there were enough of you to support a Total PVP, corpse looting gankfest like you seem to want Im sure some dev would be making it. The thing is if a dev did make such a game you wouldnt see us "carebears" whining and crying about that game. We just wouldnt support it with our money. If you dont like Our PVE games dont support it with your money.
Are you being serious? Are you honestly stating that current day UO is a 'hardcore pvp' game? UO is now just about THE most carebearafied game out there! It makes WoW look... good! (REALLY takes some doing).
There ARE no real PvP games out there, this is our point! Companies are too afraid to create a game whereby people can upset others in real life. Why? Because they are afraid of the sheer number of innevitable complaints they'll receive from the 'curious' carebear community that'll no doubt flood the game to see what all the fuss is about.
There is a market out there for real, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. It may be smaller, but that simply puts it in a niche position, which is actually a very strong position at the moment. This is why Eve is doing so well, and has so many LOYAL fans that truely love the game to bits.
You may ask, why aren't I playing Eve then? Well, I am. It's certainly not as exciting as UO used to be, but it's the closest I can get to a fun game at the moment.
Heres the thing. We carebears dont care if you have yourreal, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. I wish to god some dev would make the game you all want. What we dont want is for our games to be turned intoreal, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP.
i dont get how people whine about pvp...like ganking..killing..player looting.
if you know thats all in the game (or type of server) then why whine about it when you get burned? its your own fucking fault if you stuck your hand in the fire.
i dont get it at all. you go play pve games..thats all cool. if you feel like playing pvp..then go ahead..just know that things might be really tough..and icky
and when they do, dont have a fucking bowel movement over it.
can someone help me on this a little? i still dont get the problem.
Heres the thing. We carebears dont care if you have yourreal, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. I wish to god some dev would make the game you all want. What we dont want is for our games to be turned intoreal, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP.
Well, I think the OP mentioned something about how if those hardcore pvper's did get their wish, there wouldn't be enough of them to keep a game going. And so because of that they migrate into the other games, and then they complain that the pvp sucks just because it's not tailored to their "bully" play style.
These hardcore pvpers have no compunctions about attacking someone 20 levels BELOW them, but I have yet to hear of one of them attack another player 20 levels ABOVE them . That's because the measure of their bravery is a measure of how many levels they exceed their opponent. Just goes to show you, if they behave lowly in the game they're probably not happy with their real lives either. (edited only for spelling correcttions)
I never got what was fun about getting my hard earned gear looted, thats the kind of stuff that would make me not want to play anymore. Though I do love pvp, guess im a carebear so Yay ?
Originally posted by Hohbein Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game.
The highlighted sentence says it all, doesn't it?
The very fact that you have absolutely no idea of how 'real' UO-style pvp operated, yet you still think you've earned the right to call players who have undoubtably experienced more in terms of gaming/pvp "1337 kiddies".
We 'real' gamers don't ask that carebears play with us, we ask that we at least HAVE a game for US to play. You guys can grind all you wish, /enable pvp all you wish, have intercourse with other men all you wish, we couldn't care less. I know i'd much rather be gaming with "1337 kiddies" than obnoxious twits like you sir.
UO had that, after trammel release. PVE players could play PVE, and PVP players coul pvp all they want in the old regions. but what a surprise, all pk players start yelling the game is "ruined" because PVE players could no longer be ganked, with stuff taken.
If some dev team would make an all-out FFA PVP game with full player looting and perma death, most of these so called hardcore pvp'ers wouldn't play it anyway. There would be so much crying and calling for nerfs and people quitting that the devs would end up making it carebear anyway.
BTW all you hardcore pvp'ers should go play Roma Victor there's nothing else to do in that game but pvp, and make clay piles.
Originally posted by vortigen7 Buzz, they only want pvp when they can hurt someone else, not be hurt themselves. They like some immunity too, you know, hehe.
Originally posted by vortigen7 Buzz, they only want pvp when they can hurt someone else, not be hurt themselves. They like some immunity too, you know, hehe.
could you bloody well quit lumping us all in one group?!
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by vortigen7 Buzz, they only want pvp when they can hurt someone else, not be hurt themselves. They like some immunity too, you know, hehe.
well thought out post deleted, no point in futher feeding the stereotyping troll.
Its something called prejudice, which there is alot of on these forums. Everyone assumes the PvP supporter loves to grief, and that theyre sole opinion is right and no one elses. And then they turn that argument around on the opposite side, thus turning into hypocrites.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by vortigen7 Buzz, they only want pvp when they can hurt someone else, not be hurt themselves. They like some immunity too, you know, hehe.
could you bloody well quit lumping us all in one group?!
If you would take the time to read, instead of get fired up over something you infer, then you would know I was replying to Buzz's post and the things he said. If you don't feel I can make an opinion about the things he said, then you may as well put your head back in the sand.
Originally posted by Jerek_ Originally posted by vortigen7 Buzz, they only want pvp when they can hurt someone else, not be hurt themselves. They like some immunity too, you know, hehe.
well thought out post deleted, no point in futher feeding the stereotyping troll.
As if anything you ever say is constructive, eh?
Want a stereotype? Well then look in your toilet and then in the mirror, and you'll see a piece of crap in both places.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU PvP IS about taking a hefty shit over other people's fun, about being competetive, about winning. These things are incompatible with people who actually play for the RPG aspect, which is cooperative.
I must be some kind of hybrid then; I like being both RPG co-operative and PvP competitive.
Hell,whenever Darkfall comes out I intend (as a Mahirim= they racially allied to orcs) to do some co-operation with some dwarves (they allied to humans/elves) just for the sake of breaking racial barriers and creating a challenge in trying to be 'co-operative'. Probably die a lot,but since there's no racial language barrier it could be interesting to see how inter-racial clans and general inter-racial relationships develop,which is for me another KEY point of Darkfall.
I'd bet any money if WOW (yes yes,WOW being the current BIG example of PvP-PvE) removed the whole Horde/Alliance speech divide thing,it'd create a more interesting atmosphere in the game. Players would be able to go down BOTH the competitive and the co-operative route if they wanted. Before I quit,it sort of happened that way anyway.
I remember times when the Alliance & Horde,on a PvP server just grinded peacefully. Until some PvP'er came along,and destroyed the peace. Both sides were unleashed out there; granted this didn't happen a LOT,it was MAINLY because grinding took priority over mindless singular honour kills and most PvP-oriented groups revolved around high-geared/numbered emote spammers,but it gives a general idea as to why both PvE and PvP can mix well.
I'd agree with Gameloading; when PvP'ers start demanding more PvP in a high-end PvE game just for the sake of it without giving constructive ideas for said PvP,and then blaming PvE'rs for 'death of PK games',that's as bad as PvE 'carebears' demanding PvP-oriented games be less PvP and more PvE. (although the hardcore PvP group have less choices....for now.)
But PvP and PvE can mix well.....until one side gets tired of the other. I personally enjoy games with both encouraged strongly.
Community is 100x more important than PvP or PvE though. Sorry if I rambled on.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Its something called prejudice, which there is alot of on these forums. Everyone assumes the PvP supporter loves to grief, and that theyre sole opinion is right and no one elses. And then they turn that argument around on the opposite side, thus turning into hypocrites.
No offence Steelarm, but you really aren't in a position to point the finger and name someone a hypocrit, because if there is anybody that is acting like a hypocrit in this thread, then its you.
Originally posted by vortigen7 If you would take the time to read, instead of get fired up over something you infer, then you would know I was replying to Buzz's post and the things he said. If you don't feel I can make an opinion about the things he said, then you may as well put your head back in the sand.
I took the time to read, I always do. both you and Buzz continually act as if all dedicated PVPers are only out to ruin other peoples fun. This is a gross prejudice in many ways. That is what I was objecting to
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Comments
Don't lump PVPers into the PKers. I know some people who love PVP and they do not respect Pkers.
When people say I like to have a good one on one fight against an even or more skilled opponent that is great. When they are saying many other things that pvp players like that is great. But if they then say something like "real PVP" must have looting, then they have discounted all the noble claims and are showing that their fun is taking stuff from other players and those noble claims mean nothing but posturing.
It would be great to see a group of shrinks evaluate such a person in that context to see what they come up with.
no, that Player Killing, which is an entirely different thing. PvP is about being competitive, but not about winning or losing, andf certainly not about ruining anothers fun. if you lose in a fair fight, you pick yourself up and get better, if you win you help the other guy up and continue on your way without gloating. Win or lose, many people have fun in these fights, since your opponent is much smarter than any mob.
Now on the other side of the coin is whats known as ganking or player killing, taking the advantage in a situation where one clearly has an overwhelming upper hand, be it because of numbers, level, or simply circumstances (such as player A waiting for player B to be nearly killed by boss X) PKs are on the whole quite unwelcome even among PvPers.
Unfortunately, the recent turn of events has affected all of us, not just the select few gamers who you actually have a complaint about. So, congratulations upon your victory, an excellent job of nuking the farmland to oblivion to get rid of the bandits.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Not accpording to every single 'hardcore' PVPer who posts here; full looting provides the 'consequences' that makes PVP not 'pointless' for them. I have yet to see even a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games to practice as a crafter. Plus the two aren't really related; you can easily have a full-loot game where most gear is from PVE drops, or a game where equipment permanently decays over tiem or from use but isn't looted.
I don't really see how grinding to replace the gear that I lost, which is what you end up doing in 'full-loot' games, is supposed to be better than grinding for a better set of gear in a PVE game. At least in the PVE option I'm going for something new instead of just getting back to where I was. How about... you get your gear, then you go fight with it and don't lose it, and get to engage in fun PVP fights instead of boring grinding? Or you get loot drops from other players but don't actually make them lose stuff? Either of those sound far better than grind-oriented systems.
The very fact that you have absolutely no idea of how 'real' UO-style pvp operated, yet you still think you've earned the right to call players who have undoubtably experienced more in terms of gaming/pvp "1337 kiddies".
We 'real' gamers don't ask that carebears play with us, we ask that we at least HAVE a game for US to play. You guys can grind all you wish, /enable pvp all you wish, have intercourse with other men all you wish, we couldn't care less. I know i'd much rather be gaming with "1337 kiddies" than obnoxious twits like you sir.
*goes to pray at the temple of the gaming god*
Me: Dear God, when will true, fun PvP come back into our lives in games?
God: Take a trip to Africa. I heard Zimbabwae is fun.
Me: Dear God, when will these players stop being hypocrites and bashing all hardcore PvP supporters?
God: You must have faith.
Me: Dear God, when is Darkfall coming out?
God: ......
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
There ARE no real PvP games out there, this is our point! Companies are too afraid to create a game whereby people can upset others in real life. Why? Because they are afraid of the sheer number of innevitable complaints they'll receive from the 'curious' carebear community that'll no doubt flood the game to see what all the fuss is about.
There is a market out there for real, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. It may be smaller, but that simply puts it in a niche position, which is actually a very strong position at the moment. This is why Eve is currently in a great position, and has so many LOYAL fans that truely love the game to bits.
You may ask, why aren't I playing Eve then? Well, I am. It's certainly not as exciting as UO used to be, but it's the closest I can get to a fun game at the moment.
There ARE no real PvP games out there, this is our point! Companies are too afraid to create a game whereby people can upset others in real life. Why? Because they are afraid of the sheer number of innevitable complaints they'll receive from the 'curious' carebear community that'll no doubt flood the game to see what all the fuss is about.
There is a market out there for real, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. It may be smaller, but that simply puts it in a niche position, which is actually a very strong position at the moment. This is why Eve is doing so well, and has so many LOYAL fans that truely love the game to bits.
You may ask, why aren't I playing Eve then? Well, I am. It's certainly not as exciting as UO used to be, but it's the closest I can get to a fun game at the moment.
Heres the thing. We carebears dont care if you have your real, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP. I wish to god some dev would make the game you all want. What we dont want is for our games to be turned into real, hardcore, no rules, all out PvP.
i dont get how people whine about pvp...like ganking..killing..player looting.
if you know thats all in the game (or type of server) then why whine about it when you get burned? its your own fucking fault if you stuck your hand in the fire.
i dont get it at all. you go play pve games..thats all cool. if you feel like playing pvp..then go ahead..just know that things might be really tough..and icky
and when they do, dont have a fucking bowel movement over it.
can someone help me on this a little? i still dont get the problem.
Well, I think the OP mentioned something about how if those hardcore pvper's did get their wish, there wouldn't be enough of them to keep a game going. And so because of that they migrate into the other games, and then they complain that the pvp sucks just because it's not tailored to their "bully" play style.
These hardcore pvpers have no compunctions about attacking someone 20 levels BELOW them, but I have yet to hear of one of them attack another player 20 levels ABOVE them
. That's because the measure of their bravery is a measure of how many levels they exceed their opponent. Just goes to show you, if they behave lowly in the game they're probably not happy with their real lives either. (edited only for spelling correcttions)
-ArcticWolf
The very fact that you have absolutely no idea of how 'real' UO-style pvp operated, yet you still think you've earned the right to call players who have undoubtably experienced more in terms of gaming/pvp "1337 kiddies".
We 'real' gamers don't ask that carebears play with us, we ask that we at least HAVE a game for US to play. You guys can grind all you wish, /enable pvp all you wish, have intercourse with other men all you wish, we couldn't care less. I know i'd much rather be gaming with "1337 kiddies" than obnoxious twits like you sir.
UO had that, after trammel release. PVE players could play PVE, and PVP players coul pvp all they want in the old regions. but what a surprise, all pk players start yelling the game is "ruined" because PVE players could no longer be ganked, with stuff taken.
If some dev team would make an all-out FFA PVP game with full player looting and perma death, most of these so called hardcore pvp'ers wouldn't play it anyway. There would be so much crying and calling for nerfs and people quitting that the devs would end up making it carebear anyway.
BTW all you hardcore pvp'ers should go play Roma Victor there's nothing else to do in that game but pvp, and make clay piles.
Good point.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Its something called prejudice, which there is alot of on these forums. Everyone assumes the PvP supporter loves to grief, and that theyre sole opinion is right and no one elses. And then they turn that argument around on the opposite side, thus turning into hypocrites.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
If you would take the time to read, instead of get fired up over something you infer, then you would know I was replying to Buzz's post and the things he said. If you don't feel I can make an opinion about the things he said, then you may as well put your head back in the sand.
As if anything you ever say is constructive, eh?
Want a stereotype? Well then look in your toilet and then in the mirror, and you'll see a piece of crap in both places.
I must be some kind of hybrid then; I like being both RPG co-operative and PvP competitive.
Hell,whenever Darkfall comes out I intend (as a Mahirim= they racially allied to orcs) to do some co-operation with some dwarves (they allied to humans/elves) just for the sake of breaking racial barriers and creating a challenge in trying to be 'co-operative'. Probably die a lot,but since there's no racial language barrier it could be interesting to see how inter-racial clans and general inter-racial relationships develop,which is for me another KEY point of Darkfall.
I'd bet any money if WOW (yes yes,WOW being the current BIG example of PvP-PvE) removed the whole Horde/Alliance speech divide thing,it'd create a more interesting atmosphere in the game. Players would be able to go down BOTH the competitive and the co-operative route if they wanted. Before I quit,it sort of happened that way anyway.
I remember times when the Alliance & Horde,on a PvP server just grinded peacefully. Until some PvP'er came along,and destroyed the peace. Both sides were unleashed out there; granted this didn't happen a LOT,it was MAINLY because grinding took priority over mindless singular honour kills and most PvP-oriented groups revolved around high-geared/numbered emote spammers,but it gives a general idea as to why both PvE and PvP can mix well.
I'd agree with Gameloading; when PvP'ers start demanding more PvP in a high-end PvE game just for the sake of it without giving constructive ideas for said PvP,and then blaming PvE'rs for 'death of PK games',that's as bad as PvE 'carebears' demanding PvP-oriented games be less PvP and more PvE. (although the hardcore PvP group have less choices....for now.)
But PvP and PvE can mix well.....until one side gets tired of the other. I personally enjoy games with both encouraged strongly.
Community is 100x more important than PvP or PvE though. Sorry if I rambled on.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway