Originally posted by Steelarm011 Its something called prejudice, which there is alot of on these forums.
It's called getting what you give. The 'hardcore' PVP crowd likes to toss around insults, so people toss it right back. If you're going to say bad things about people, don't start sobbing if they say similar things back at you. Quick hint: Calling everyone who doesn't like your exact PvP ruleset a carebear is not a good start.
Everyone assumes the PvP supporter loves to grief,
This is not about PvP supporters, it's about self-identified 'hardcore' PvP supporters, who make it a point to tell us that games don't have real 'hardcore' PVP unless it has 'consequences' in the form of taking stuff from people after you beat them up. For example, I'm a big fan of real PVP, I just don't need the school bully thrill of taking someone else's stuff to enjoy PvP.
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by vortigen7 If you would take the time to read, instead of get fired up over something you infer, then you would know I was replying to Buzz's post and the things he said. If you don't feel I can make an opinion about the things he said, then you may as well put your head back in the sand.
I took the time to read, I always do. both you and Buzz continually act as if all dedicated PVPers are only out to ruin other peoples fun. This is a gross prejudice in many ways. That is what I was objecting to I don't think all PVPers are out to ruin other people's fun, just most of them. I'm not PC at all so calling me prejudice doesn't phase me one bit. You seem to be prejudice against us carebears though, so what's the dif?
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore I don't think all PVPers are out to ruin other people's fun, just most of them. I'm not PC at all so calling me prejudice doesn't phase me one bit. You seem to be prejudice against us carebears though, so what's the dif?
I havent said a thing about carebears (I hate using that term) Every single thing I have said was directed either at a specific person or in direct response to someone elses statement, not talking about some vague predefined group. And by all means, if you acknowledge that theres a difference between PVPer camps, act like it
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
The sad thing is, is that the same folks who get their jollies off by ganking people 20+ lvls below them in PVP games, are the same ones who'd cheat/hack their way into winning into the same game. I remember the days when I played Underlight (by Lyra Studios) it was an insanely fun RP'ing based full on PVP fantasy game. It was out around the same time (maybe a little after) Sierra's "The Realm" and well after M59, but before EverQuest 1. Now, the sad thing was that a HUGE chunk of the game was Client side. So skill/abilities were SO EASILLY hacked. As quick as a Lyran (GM) would appear and ban them, they'd be back in game, doing it again....always spouting their "l33t 5p3@|<" about how EverQuest or whatever was gonna kill it. The same folks who did that, were part of the same crowd who readilly did whatever they could to cheat in EQ1-Shadowbane-UO-ect-ect-ect.
Originally posted by Diatribe The sad thing is, is that the same folks who get their jollies off by ganking people 20+ lvls below them in PVP games, are the same ones who'd cheat/hack their way into winning into the same game. I remember the days when I played Underlight (by Lyra Studios) it was an insanely fun RP'ing based full on PVP fantasy game. It was out around the same time (maybe a little after) Sierra's "The Realm" and well after M59, but before EverQuest 1. Now, the sad thing was that a HUGE chunk of the game was Client side. So skill/abilities were SO EASILLY hacked. As quick as a Lyran (GM) would appear and ban them, they'd be back in game, doing it again....always spouting their "l33t 5p3@|<" about how EverQuest or whatever was gonna kill it. The same folks who did that, were part of the same crowd who readilly did whatever they could to cheat in EQ1-Shadowbane-UO-ect-ect-ect.
D.
I couldn't agree more.
Like when two ninjas meat 4 da 1sted tim3! OMFGG!!@eleven442 Itz s000 crazy!
Originally posted by Aelfinn its sad when someone is proud of eradicating someone elses playstyle, which did not necessarily impinge upon his own.
I say "elite PvPers" do "inpinge" upon a carebear's playstyle. Why don't they take on someone their own size instead of being bottom feeders like they all truly are? Like in real life, that overly-buff shiftless guy you bumped into in the subway punches your lights out and pisses on your face because you wear glasses... we try to escape that, you know.
Originally posted by Plasuma!!! Originally posted by Aelfinn its sad when someone is proud of eradicating someone elses playstyle, which did not necessarily impinge upon his own.
I say "elite PvPers" do "inpinge" upon a carebear's playstyle. Why don't they take on someone their own size instead of being bottom feeders like they all truly are? Like in real life, that overly-buff shiftless guy you bumped into in the subway punches your lights out and pisses on your face because you wear glasses... we try to escape that, you know.
Hehe, well for no good reason is always lame. But I live by the rules of street fighting.. Which if some of you know. There is no such thing as unfair. (This is real life I'm talking about BTW.) You do whatever it takes to win and that's it. Now I'm not into the idea of looting in PvP, but the idea of something negative happening when one dies is interesting. But that's only to the games that the play style would fit. I example the Battletech universe. If it was a system where you acquire mechs then if you die in a PvP battle... (BTW completely skill based.) That mech is lost and your back at your mechshop on like a moon you acquired. In a situation like that. Without a consequence where is the feel for the game. I can see it something like there. Cause personally it fits the lore and only makes sense. And to kill a mech is hard work. (mechwarrior for the win! Forever!)
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Plasuma!!!I say "elite PvPers" do "inpinge" upon a carebear's playstyle. Why don't they take on someone their own size instead of being bottom feeders like they all truly are? Like in real life, that overly-buff shiftless guy you bumped into in the subway punches your lights out and pisses on your face because you wear glasses... we try to escape that, you know.
Believe it or not I agree with what you are trying to say. However, the change in games does not just affect the relatively small portion of PVPers that you describe, it affects every last one of us, including those like me who fight for fun, not loot, and certainly dont slaughter players who are at a distinct disadvantage
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by Plasuma!!!I say "elite PvPers" do "inpinge" upon a carebear's playstyle. Why don't they take on someone their own size instead of being bottom feeders like they all truly are? Like in real life, that overly-buff shiftless guy you bumped into in the subway punches your lights out and pisses on your face because you wear glasses... we try to escape that, you know.
Believe it or not I agree with what you are trying to say. However, the change in games does not just affect the relatively small portion of PVPers that you describe, it affects every last one of us, including those like me who fight for fun, not loot, and certainly dont slaughter players who are at a distinct disadvantage Then you are not a "hardcore" PVPer and my original post does not apply to you. The hardcore FFA PVPer will tell you that if you are attackable, you will be attacked, killed, looted and probably insulted afterwards. They would call you a carebear with that kind of Mr. Niceguy attitude.
Originally posted by RollinDutch Open PvP with looting isnt for the PvPers so much as its for the people who provide for the market.
I have yet to see even a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games to practice as a crafter.
Odd. I see threads all the time which note that EVE (a full-loot, open PvP game) has hands down the best market economy in MMOGs. Its market is so far above where other MMOGs are now that theyre just in a race for second place, and most of the archetypical PvE MMOGs arent even in the running.
meI have yet to see even a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games to practice as a crafter.
Odd. I see threads all the time which note that EVE (a full-loot, open PvP game) has hands down the best market economy in MMOGs. Its market is so far above where other MMOGs are now that theyre just in a race for second place, and most of the archetypical PvE MMOGs arent even in the running.
That's still not a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games, it's just more from EVE fanboys cheering about EVE. There just don't seem to be any crafters hanging around going 'boy, I'd love a full-loot, open PVP game', just 'hardcore' PVPers posting threads complaining.
Personally I was distinctly unimpressed with EVE's market (yawn for massive PVE grinding and pure luck to get blueprints), and sweeping claims about how it's so far above what anyone else does just trigger my 'great, another EVE fanatic' warning light. I see threads where people claim that EVE is the greatest thing since sliced bread, cures cancer, and brings peace to the middle east, that doesn't mean that I take them seriously.
no, that Player Killing, which is an entirely different thing. PvP is about being competitive, but not about winning or losing, andf certainly not about ruining anothers fun. if you lose in a fair fight, you pick yourself up and get better, if you win you help the other guy up and continue on your way without gloating. Win or lose, many people have fun in these fights, since your opponent is much smarter than any mob. Now on the other side of the coin is whats known as ganking or player killing, taking the advantage in a situation where one clearly has an overwhelming upper hand, be it because of numbers, level, or simply circumstances (such as player A waiting for player B to be nearly killed by boss X) PKs are on the whole quite unwelcome even among PvPers. Unfortunately, the recent turn of events has affected all of us, not just the select few gamers who you actually have a complaint about. So, congratulations upon your victory, an excellent job of nuking the farmland to oblivion to get rid of the bandits.
So you say, but my experience shows otherwise. I see many people SAY this but nobody actually act like it in practice.
There should be games to cater to these people, but then they don't do so great because they don't attract the PvE cannon-fodder to be grist to the PvPer's mill and they then complain they don't have anyone to gank (Sorry 'compete with'). It really makes a lie of the whole presentation you give to the thing.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU This wouldn't be a problem if companies didn't keep trying to make PvPers and PvE players play in the same 'space'.
And they do that because most of them don't have a damn clue what to make for PVE "endgame content", but they want to have something because without it people will cancel... so they use PVP as "endgame content". It costs nothing (other than maybe time to nerf things as people scream about class balance) and it provides the illusion that there is some larger goal out there for levelling up.
Of course that's a flawed design. Real PVPers are not really going to enjoy having to gain 50 PVE levels before they can compete in PVP... and the rest of the world (PVEers -- so-called carebears --, who are in the very clear majority in terms of audience size), are not going to PVP suddenly when they get to max level... so the "endgame content" for them remains 0.
In short using PVP as "endgame" solves nothing, and the designers who keep doing this need to be taken out and shot. Make some real endgame content, or just suck it up and accept that at level cap people will cancel, and live with that.
In short using PVP as "endgame" solves nothing, and the designers who keep doing this need to be taken out and shot. Make some real endgame content, or just suck it up and accept that at level cap people will cancel, and live with that.
C
I think the whole concept of 'endgame' is deeply flawed. A more open-ended, non level-based design would be far more accomodating and 'endgame' is frankly rather silly.
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by Plasuma!!!I say "elite PvPers" do "inpinge" upon a carebear's playstyle. Why don't they take on someone their own size instead of being bottom feeders like they all truly are? Like in real life, that overly-buff shiftless guy you bumped into in the subway punches your lights out and pisses on your face because you wear glasses... we try to escape that, you know.
Believe it or not I agree with what you are trying to say. However, the change in games does not just affect the relatively small portion of PVPers that you describe, it affects every last one of us, including those like me who fight for fun, not loot, and certainly dont slaughter players who are at a distinct disadvantage
It's really a shame it has turned out like this. As usual a relative minority of people (the "bottom feeder" PK types -- love that term BTW) end up ruining it for everyone -- PVEers (oops, I mean carebears) as well as the TRUE hardcore PVPers, by which I mean the people looking for actual competition and seeking out fair, tough fights for the challenge.
The problem is building a system that allows the "challenge" style PVP, in a relatively open and unrestricted manner, but prohibits the ganking/"I pwned j00!" style of play. And that's very hard to do. So designers have just gone with, "Let players turn off their PVP flag so they don't have to deal with these imbeciles if they don't want to," which happily frustrates the bottom feeder, but sadly, in true "shotgun" fashion, also damages the verisimilitude that some of the true PVPers are looking for.
I think it was you who said, up a few pages back, that there need to be real consequences for PKing, and I would agree. It's just that so far the consequences that have been dreamed up, have not been sufficient to stop the bullies from being the nimrods that they are.
If someone can come up with a good system that allows open PVP but not PKing, I'd be all for it. But I haven't seen one that really works yet, and so like many other Carebears, I prefer to just sequester myself from the nimrods.
If this has all ready been said forgive me i couldnt really be bothered reading most of this topic... but if you give the "carebear" the magic sword, shield and the ring of invulnerability let him/her go wild on average he wont be any better then your average pker or griefer... from my experience people that have become these "carebears" becasue of there gaming experience, end up like this because they get upset and fed up. on the other hand people that dont can oftern become these "hardcore pvpers" they stick with it, they get killed alot... but at the end of the day have the best reward when they can seek revenge on those others. no matter who you are you do not start 1337 you earn it. and games that can turnly reflect this are simply great fun. not to mention the other countless numbers of other great and injoyable factors of this gaming style..
oh i say one more thing, i dont think games that encourage item hores are fun at all, im all for the skill.
most people just dont have that extra mile in them
i see a lot of people moan over the years how UO became carebear etc.But here is the facts.When trammel was released that was the only change made.The fellucia world remained for quite some time as it was in T2A era apart from the trees now had no leaves .
The exact gameplay in feluccia was TOTALLY unchanged for a long time.They gave 2 options for people to enjoy UO.Continue as things were or move to trammel to be able to adventure and craft in relative peace.
If the crowd that decided to come to sites and even trammel to spam how UO was ruined ,continued their lives on fellucia the developers would ensure that the pvp side of things remained un hampered.
However,fellucia at least on europa was almost empty.This gave a message to the developers that the old style of gameplay was not liked by the vast majority.
To me all this states is that without the guys who spent their skill points on mining and crafting with little ways to defend themselves or that poor noob trying to kill his first animal ,the vast majority of so called "hardcore old style pvper" are nothing more then a bunch of gankers who the world of mmo is well to get rid of .
From personal experience i can honestly say when i became a GM mage/tank in UO i rarely had the chance to kill a red because they were masters of running away if anyone came that did not look like a miner or noob.
For those of us that actually enjoy the world of pvp for the incentive of good fun for all and are happy enough to work for our gear and pvp credit rewards ,there are loads of games that are fun to pvp .DAoC has the best pvp form and the subs over the 5 years are prove of this.
pvp is well and truely alive and liked but not in the form the so called "old style pvp" want.
What is with all this loot stuff? Eve players rather have "official" kill boards...well that is what they bitch about the most.
The last alliance I was in would fine you 1 million ISK if you failed to post a kill mail on their kill board.
When that idiot died, I thought kill boards and Eve would leave, but to many "Look at me I is ELITE with all my shuttle and newbie kills!" for that to happen.
Well eight pages of this thread and yet I have not seen what game or article every one is either happy or mad about. So what gives folks?
What no one seems to mention in these topics is the NPC hardcore PVP-ers. I mean, we all focus on the fee paying subscriber characters who 'gank' and kill and steal and generally cause death and loss of earnings - but when compared to the amount of times I have been randomly killed by an NPC, who was way above my skill level and I have lost experience and, occassionally my corpse due to such needless crimes, I must say, the NPCs are far more guilty and offend far more regularly - and they are all over the place!!!
So, lets lay off those 'hardcore pvp-ers' they really aren't the problem, it is about time we closed ranks and forced the mmo game designers to stop creating games with violent aggressive NPCs and then we could all rise up to uber level Paltinum trillionaires without ever being killed or losing anything.
Comments
It's called getting what you give. The 'hardcore' PVP crowd likes to toss around insults, so people toss it right back. If you're going to say bad things about people, don't start sobbing if they say similar things back at you. Quick hint: Calling everyone who doesn't like your exact PvP ruleset a carebear is not a good start.
This is not about PvP supporters, it's about self-identified 'hardcore' PvP supporters, who make it a point to tell us that games don't have real 'hardcore' PVP unless it has 'consequences' in the form of taking stuff from people after you beat them up. For example, I'm a big fan of real PVP, I just don't need the school bully thrill of taking someone else's stuff to enjoy PvP.
I don't think all PVPers are out to ruin other people's fun, just most of them. I'm not PC at all so calling me prejudice doesn't phase me one bit. You seem to be prejudice against us carebears though, so what's the dif?
ffa is great, wuts not great r the 15yos that one-shot / greaf lowbies.
i'm a pvper tho
and i think ur right, even WAR wont be ffa pvp ='(
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
D.
So many games, so little time!
I couldn't agree more.
Like when two ninjas meat 4 da 1sted tim3! OMFGG!!@eleven442 Itz s000 crazy!
Hehe, well for no good reason is always lame. But I live by the rules of street fighting.. Which if some of you know. There is no such thing as unfair. (This is real life I'm talking about BTW.) You do whatever it takes to win and that's it. Now I'm not into the idea of looting in PvP, but the idea of something negative happening when one dies is interesting. But that's only to the games that the play style would fit. I example the Battletech universe. If it was a system where you acquire mechs then if you die in a PvP battle... (BTW completely skill based.) That mech is lost and your back at your mechshop on like a moon you acquired. In a situation like that. Without a consequence where is the feel for the game. I can see it something like there. Cause personally it fits the lore and only makes sense. And to kill a mech is hard work. (mechwarrior for the win! Forever!)
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Then you are not a "hardcore" PVPer and my original post does not apply to you. The hardcore FFA PVPer will tell you that if you are attackable, you will be attacked, killed, looted and probably insulted afterwards. They would call you a carebear with that kind of Mr. Niceguy attitude.
I have yet to see even a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games to practice as a crafter.
Odd. I see threads all the time which note that EVE (a full-loot, open PvP game) has hands down the best market economy in MMOGs. Its market is so far above where other MMOGs are now that theyre just in a race for second place, and most of the archetypical PvE MMOGs arent even in the running.
That's still not a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games, it's just more from EVE fanboys cheering about EVE. There just don't seem to be any crafters hanging around going 'boy, I'd love a full-loot, open PVP game', just 'hardcore' PVPers posting threads complaining.
Personally I was distinctly unimpressed with EVE's market (yawn for massive PVE grinding and pure luck to get blueprints), and sweeping claims about how it's so far above what anyone else does just trigger my 'great, another EVE fanatic' warning light. I see threads where people claim that EVE is the greatest thing since sliced bread, cures cancer, and brings peace to the middle east, that doesn't mean that I take them seriously.
There should be games to cater to these people, but then they don't do so great because they don't attract the PvE cannon-fodder to be grist to the PvPer's mill and they then complain they don't have anyone to gank (Sorry 'compete with'). It really makes a lie of the whole presentation you give to the thing.
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
Of course that's a flawed design. Real PVPers are not really going to enjoy having to gain 50 PVE levels before they can compete in PVP... and the rest of the world (PVEers -- so-called carebears --, who are in the very clear majority in terms of audience size), are not going to PVP suddenly when they get to max level... so the "endgame content" for them remains 0.
In short using PVP as "endgame" solves nothing, and the designers who keep doing this need to be taken out and shot. Make some real endgame content, or just suck it up and accept that at level cap people will cancel, and live with that.
C
Postmortem Studios
Roleplaying games to DIE for
Shop here
It's really a shame it has turned out like this. As usual a relative minority of people (the "bottom feeder" PK types -- love that term BTW) end up ruining it for everyone -- PVEers (oops, I mean carebears) as well as the TRUE hardcore PVPers, by which I mean the people looking for actual competition and seeking out fair, tough fights for the challenge.
The problem is building a system that allows the "challenge" style PVP, in a relatively open and unrestricted manner, but prohibits the ganking/"I pwned j00!" style of play. And that's very hard to do. So designers have just gone with, "Let players turn off their PVP flag so they don't have to deal with these imbeciles if they don't want to," which happily frustrates the bottom feeder, but sadly, in true "shotgun" fashion, also damages the verisimilitude that some of the true PVPers are looking for.
I think it was you who said, up a few pages back, that there need to be real consequences for PKing, and I would agree. It's just that so far the consequences that have been dreamed up, have not been sufficient to stop the bullies from being the nimrods that they are.
If someone can come up with a good system that allows open PVP but not PKing, I'd be all for it. But I haven't seen one that really works yet, and so like many other Carebears, I prefer to just sequester myself from the nimrods.
C
By the way for fun, I made up a "carebear" userbar. You can get it here:
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7479/441156403960uj6.png
C
but if you give the "carebear" the magic sword, shield and the ring of invulnerability let him/her go wild
on average he wont be any better then your average pker or griefer... from my experience people that have become these "carebears" becasue of there gaming experience, end up like this because they get upset and fed up. on the other hand people that dont can oftern become these "hardcore pvpers" they stick with it, they get killed alot... but at the end of the day have the best reward when they can seek revenge on those others.
no matter who you are you do not start 1337 you earn it.
and games that can turnly reflect this are simply great fun.
not to mention the other countless numbers of other great and injoyable factors of this gaming style..
oh i say one more thing, i dont think games that encourage item hores are fun at all, im all for the skill.
most people just dont have that extra mile in them
i see a lot of people moan over the years how UO became carebear etc.But here is the facts.When trammel was released that was the only change made.The fellucia world remained for quite some time as it was in T2A era apart from the trees now had no leaves .
The exact gameplay in feluccia was TOTALLY unchanged for a long time.They gave 2 options for people to enjoy UO.Continue as things were or move to trammel to be able to adventure and craft in relative peace.
If the crowd that decided to come to sites and even trammel to spam how UO was ruined ,continued their lives on fellucia the developers would ensure that the pvp side of things remained un hampered.
However,fellucia at least on europa was almost empty.This gave a message to the developers that the old style of gameplay was not liked by the vast majority.
To me all this states is that without the guys who spent their skill points on mining and crafting with little ways to defend themselves or that poor noob trying to kill his first animal ,the vast majority of so called "hardcore old style pvper" are nothing more then a bunch of gankers who the world of mmo is well to get rid of .
From personal experience i can honestly say when i became a GM mage/tank in UO i rarely had the chance to kill a red because they were masters of running away if anyone came that did not look like a miner or noob.
For those of us that actually enjoy the world of pvp for the incentive of good fun for all and are happy enough to work for our gear and pvp credit rewards ,there are loads of games that are fun to pvp .DAoC has the best pvp form and the subs over the 5 years are prove of this.
pvp is well and truely alive and liked but not in the form the so called "old style pvp" want.
What is with all this loot stuff? Eve players rather have "official" kill boards...well that is what they bitch about the most.
The last alliance I was in would fine you 1 million ISK if you failed to post a kill mail on their kill board.
When that idiot died, I thought kill boards and Eve would leave, but to many "Look at me I is ELITE with all my shuttle and newbie kills!" for that to happen.
Well eight pages of this thread and yet I have not seen what game or article every one is either happy or mad about. So what gives folks?
What no one seems to mention in these topics is the NPC hardcore PVP-ers. I mean, we all focus on the fee paying subscriber characters who 'gank' and kill and steal and generally cause death and loss of earnings - but when compared to the amount of times I have been randomly killed by an NPC, who was way above my skill level and I have lost experience and, occassionally my corpse due to such needless crimes, I must say, the NPCs are far more guilty and offend far more regularly - and they are all over the place!!!
So, lets lay off those 'hardcore pvp-ers' they really aren't the problem, it is about time we closed ranks and forced the mmo game designers to stop creating games with violent aggressive NPCs and then we could all rise up to uber level Paltinum trillionaires without ever being killed or losing anything.
that's a game I would play!
Really?
It would be much better if you did with your spells and swords and not with your money.