Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
I'm afraid its not this simple.
Both "carebears" and "griefers" were defeated by what I call the "Standard Type Favorite User" or "S.T.F.U." for short.
It used to be that we didn't talk about "carebears," or "griefers." We never talked about "catasses," and "whiners." All of those things sound like each of the playstyles I used to know worded like a disease on the games, rather than as distinct playstyles in their own right.
What we call a "carebear" was an "explorer." Explorers put safety and survival first, because they wanted to stay alive long enough to explore new things, and new ways of doing things. Such people were not a plague, or a wuss, but a benefit to everyone, because they were the ones that taught everyone else.
What we call a "griefer" used to be called a "killer." Killers wanted to fight other players, because it was a challenge and necessary. Such people were not necessarily a curse, but could be beneficial, because they were the ones you called if you had a problem.
What we call a "catass" was an "achiever." Achievers wanted to go for the biggest prizes that others could not or would not do. These people were not necessarily unbalancing, but provided everyone with the things they couldn't otherwise get.
What we call a "whiner," was a socializer. Socializers had a flair for words, and for the dramatic. These people were not necessarily emotionally challenged, but provided everyone else with plots and storylines that would give everyone else some context, and direction.
Now as much as these playstyles compliment eachother, they also conflict, and blame eachother from time to time without examining how connected they all are.
Yes, we have PvPers complain about "catass grinding," or "carebearing," or "whiny RPers," but without someone to do the grinding, or wanting to play it safe, or to create the RP drama, they have no focus, and no direction and just PvP in a meaningless gankfest.
Yes, we have achievers complain about gankers upsetting their grinds, or soloists wanting less of a raid atmosphere, or RPers complaining about people playing in character. Without these people though, the achiever will not have any reason to even be at the keys, and they might as well macro.
We have explorers complain about gankers not wanting to have to search for prey, achievers yelling about "risk versus reward," and whiners yelling about "if you want solo play, you shouldn't be in an MMO." But without all of these people, the explorer wouldn't have anybody to teach, or to show.
We do have social players complain about solo play, breaking immersion, and nasty grief, but without these people who do exploring, grinding, and PKing, all they will have is a "glorified chat room," that's unconnected with anything else and becoming more meaningless.
As a result, the companies when they read thread after thread of, "I don't want grief," take out the things that killers enjoy. When they read thread after thread of, "I want to get into the action now," take out the things that explorers enjoy. When they read thread after thread of, "there is no point in doing the MOBs if I don't get a reward I can use," take out the things that achievers enjoy. When they read threads saying, "I don't see the point in being an audience to this character drama," they take out things that help immersion, and roleplay.
The result is that nobody designs for particular player tastes anymore, and instead, they serve some generic stuff that's agreeable to most, but not fulfilling to each particular person. We get boring, contrived PvP that turns into "spreadsheet versus spreadsheet" in arenas or exclusive PvP zones. We get instances, progression-specific zoning, and help guides giving out all the secrets we used to explore in order to get. We get farmers, uberguilds, DKPs, and a defacto mandatory TS/Vent requirement to get functional loots most efficiently, making achievement really boring and unimmersive. We get immersion thrown out the window, a lack of emotes, a lack of decorative elements, and a total disregard for character roleplaying.
What is the cause of all this? Groups of players that for some reason or another felt that if they could just get rid of those damn "carebears," or "griefers," or "catasses," or "whiners," that they don't want to play around, they would be happy.
The result is that measures have been taken to keep them away, and now, none of us are happy.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
yes you carebears won. and what do we all get? countless people saying how the MMORPG market is going down, how stupid and boring games are, lack of innovation, only grind grind grind. i see at least 2 or 3 posts everyday crying for lack of any good game that isnt just kill, deliver, kill, deliver.
well, that is what you all carebears did with your wallet. thanks a lot. i am sure you are proud of it. and many people will thank you for that. you have carebears have single handendly killed any possible interest, challenge or innovation that could be made into MMORPGs. now everything is a EQ clone. and that is what most people are tired of. that is what people is complaining about.
Originally posted by Siduris but if you give the "carebear" the magic sword, shield and the ring of invulnerability let him/her go wild on average he wont be any better then your average pker or griefer.
I couldn't really tell because the rest of your post didn't embellish this (at least not in a way that I could understand, I fear), but are you asserting here the "carebears" are just the way they are because they don't have the same "stuff" that the PVPer has? That, for example, if I had the level capped character with the uberloot, I'd go around PKing people, and I don't becasue I "can't"?
If so then I'm afraid I'll have to disagree (and if not I'm sorry for misinterpreting -- but I'm going to say this anyway because I've heard it from too many other people). I have, in fact, had characters that were basically capped in power level. I have one on COH right now. In pre-CU SWG, I had a very powerful MTKA/MCH with a super-strong bio-engineered cat who was built to basically take on humanoid NPCs (resisting their damage types -- meaning the same damage types most PCs put out)... I could easily have "pwned" anyone but a J3d-3y3. And did a few times in friendly duels. Heck my cat alone could "pwn" other players without me lifting a finger, most of the time -- it was that over-powered.
Had I wanted to, I could easily have gone "Overt rebel" and run around places like Theed ganking Imperial players. I simply had no interest in doing so because I honestly don't find it fun. I had more fun teaming up with friends and exploring dangerous places like the Force Crystal caves... or hunting around Dathomir for a baby rancor to tame.
I had a friend who was a CH/Pistoleer, and he had the most powerful Krayt pistol on the server. He could kick just about anyone's butt (other than perhaps a full templted J3d-3y3, though there weren't many back when he played). But he, too, was more interested in cooperation than competition and other than friendly duels, stayed neutral and avoided open PVP. He did not do this because he was "chicken". And he did not do this because he "couldn't win" (he beat me all the time in friendly duels -- in fact I never saw him lose a duel in 6 months of play time, against anyone). He did this because he was not interested in PKing.
I think "carebears" usually are a personality type, and it has little to do with how "powerful" their character is. Believe it or not there are very good, skilled players out there who simply do not find PKing and ganking people to be fun.
Originally posted by Stumpy26 I beg to differ ..... EVE is still for pvpers
Barely. The EVE forums are filled with constant whines about PvP, and any change which would improve PvP is greeted with a constant stream of whines about "catering to the greifers" along with "if you do this I'll quit and the game will die". Odd how I've seen that threat with reguards to PvP changes since 2003 and it has yet to come true.
Combat mechanics make it easier and easier for people to escape any situation that they find themselves in, which oddly enough doesnt help the people whining about PvP (if they were smart, they wouldnt have a problem in the first place). It just means that its possible to PvP essentially without risk if youre smart and play the good odds.
Now the last of meaningful PvP in EVE is located around POS structures, and the numbers and capital investment required to do so are enormous. Not necessairly a problem, it only becomes so when you realize that the EVE servers are totally incapable of supporting battles on that scale, making any attempt to dislodge an enemy with even the smallest amount of commonsense utterly futile.
No, while EVE is nominally still for PvPers, thats a war thats being lost as well. Not even because of the PvE crowd, as EVE has gradually attracted most of the real PvPers remaining in the MMOG market, but simply due to a lack of foresight and a failure of vision from the development team.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Wow, talk about somebody driven by money, I say that money shouldnt rule a game and that you carebears deserve to have the suffing ripped out of you and burned then scattered around the ocean. A game shouldnt have such limitations and It should just be you get killed, you can be lotted, that seems fair enough to me, and if you dont want to get pked than avoid the people who are obviously a higher lvl than you and stop focusing on getting money and focus on getting lvld up.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU Originally posted by hercules why can't hardcore pvp stay in a single game? They seems to need others to roxor and leet kill. When trammel in UO was invented nothing happened to fellucia .It remained there ,yet the leet ppl moaned. they could have continued life as it was.But wait if there is no noob to kill,no miner to kill they will not fight themselves will they? there is no skill in looting a noob or killing a crafter.Want to try skill go play planetside and use your skill.
It cant stay in one game because if it did, the game would literally be breaking its programing apart there were so many people. Your talking 15 million+ pvpers all in one single game, thats pretty much people standing on top of eachother shooting arrows down into the tops of other peoples head. Try this, pvp Zones. So if you want to pvp you go to the pvp zone and find people to pvp. And although I now dislike runscape, there was a good thing about it, The PvP zone. That was where you went to pvp but it wasnt just free for all kill, the person had to be within 5 lvls of you. Which made it fair and acceptabe with nobody having any problems.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Originally posted by kylecameron1 Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Wow, talk about somebody driven by money, I say that money shouldnt rule a game and that you carebears deserve to have the suffing ripped out of you and burned then scattered around the ocean. A game shouldnt have such limitations and It should just be you get killed, you can be lotted, that seems fair enough to me, and if you dont want to get pked than avoid the people who are obviously a higher lvl than you and stop focusing on getting money and focus on getting lvld up.
Thanks for posting Kyle, you are the very type of 1337 kiddie 13 year old griefer wanna-be that I am talking about in this thread. We don't want to play games with people like you, now turn off your Mom's Emachine, turn on the Disney Channel and take a nap so you're not grumpy at school tomorrow.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgoreThanks for posting Kyle, you are the very type of 1337 kiddie 13 year old griefer wanna-be that I am talking about in this thread. We don't want to play games with people like you, now turn off your Mom's Emachine, turn on the Disney Channel and take a nap so you're not grumpy at school tomorrow.
Odd that it took so long for him to show up isnt it? perhaps there arent as many of his type after all
By the way, can we find some term to use other than carebear? I always get the feeling im putting someone down, its like me (a white guy) calling someone a "nigger" in real life. Anti-PK is the old term, but that is dated and doesnt remotely fit anymore
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by BuZZKilgoreThanks for posting Kyle, you are the very type of 1337 kiddie 13 year old griefer wanna-be that I am talking about in this thread. We don't want to play games with people like you, now turn off your Mom's Emachine, turn on the Disney Channel and take a nap so you're not grumpy at school tomorrow.
Odd that it took so long for him to show up isnt it? perhaps there arent as many of his type after all
By the way, can we find some term to use other than carebear? I always get the feeling im putting someone down, its like me (a white guy) calling someone a "nigger" in real life. Anti-PK is the old term, but that is dated and doesnt remotely fit anymore
Anti-PKs fight people they consider PKers using the PvP rules inharent in the game.
Carebears fight PvPers using whines to the developers.
Originally posted by RollinDutchAnti-PKs fight people they consider PKers using the PvP rules inharent in the game.
Carebears fight PvPers using whines to the developers.
The term is apt.
Thats why I said anti-pk doesnt fit, although I disagree with both your second statement and your conclusion
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
meI have yet to see even a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games to practice as a crafter.
Odd. I see threads all the time which note that EVE (a full-loot, open PvP game) has hands down the best market economy in MMOGs. Its market is so far above where other MMOGs are now that theyre just in a race for second place, and most of the archetypical PvE MMOGs arent even in the running.
That's still not a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games, it's just more from EVE fanboys cheering about EVE. There just don't seem to be any crafters hanging around going 'boy, I'd love a full-loot, open PVP game', just 'hardcore' PVPers posting threads complaining.
Personally I was distinctly unimpressed with EVE's market (yawn for massive PVE grinding and pure luck to get blueprints), and sweeping claims about how it's so far above what anyone else does just trigger my 'great, another EVE fanatic' warning light. I see threads where people claim that EVE is the greatest thing since sliced bread, cures cancer, and brings peace to the middle east, that doesn't mean that I take them seriously.
here you have it. i am not a pvper. in fact i dont like pvp. i dont even like missions. i like crafting, rading, producing, exploring... those are the activities i enjoy the most on mmorps.
but guess what,crafting and trading on a game where the best items are from loot and nobody can ever loose those uber items is pointless. there isnt a single possibility to have a strong and working economy without looting and item destruction.
Originally posted by ssstupido
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
yes you carebears won. and what do we all get? countless people saying how the MMORPG market is going down, how stupid and boring games are, lack of innovation, only grind grind grind. i see at least 2 or 3 posts everyday crying for lack of any good game that isnt just kill, deliver, kill, deliver.
well, that is what you all carebears did with your wallet. thanks a lot. i am sure you are proud of it. and many people will thank you for that. you have carebears have single handendly killed any possible interest, challenge or innovation that could be made into MMORPGs. now everything is a EQ clone. and that is what most people are tired of. that is what people is complaining about.
yes, you won.
preach boy! thanks so much to carebears! the actual MMORPG situation is your complete success!
Thanks for all the replies, I know some of you hate me now. If you want a piece of me, that's too bad, I'm playing CoV right now and I'm not in a pvp zone.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Thanks for all the replies, I know some of you hate me now. If you want a piece of me, that's too bad, I'm playing CoV right now and I'm not in a pvp zone.
Heh, not me, even if I was that kind of person, I enjoyed this past debate too much. The Ramey clan was born to argue
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Originally posted by kylecameron1 Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Wow, talk about somebody driven by money, I say that money shouldnt rule a game and that you carebears deserve to have the suffing ripped out of you and burned then scattered around the ocean. A game shouldnt have such limitations and It should just be you get killed, you can be lotted, that seems fair enough to me, and if you dont want to get pked than avoid the people who are obviously a higher lvl than you and stop focusing on getting money and focus on getting lvld up.
Thanks for posting Kyle, you are the very type of 1337 kiddie 13 year old griefer wanna-be that I am talking about in this thread. We don't want to play games with people like you, now turn off your Mom's Emachine, turn on the Disney Channel and take a nap so you're not grumpy at school tomorrow.
Im not grumpy I just look depressed, thats a common mistake many people make, just because you look depressed doesnt really mean you are. And if Im playing a p2p game my parents dont pay for me I do. And seeing as I have not income because Im a kid, I dont have very much stable money and I really hate the disney channel, my sister has to record every episode of hanna montana or god knows what the play on that channel, Id rather watch law and order or without a trace.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
There has been no end to PK wannabees and OCD hardasses on these forums making thread after thread, each one more unintelligent then the other about how PvP is teh 1337 and all carebears must die and so on and so forth.
And trough all this I have taken great comfort in the fact that the PvP community, ( not all of it of course, the real PvP crowd has probably been as pissed about them posts as the PvE people have been happy about them ), have kept putting their proverbial foots in their mouths.
The retarded banter by so many "Old school UO veterens" ( again probably not all that many actual old UO players ), is probably a big part of the reason why the PvE crowd "won".
So I ask, why could we not have taken this win with some dignity and humility?
Would have made it oh so much sweeter.
Poor loosers are annoying, poor winners are just sad.
And quite frankly something I would expect from the 'other' side, not from our own.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Umbrood This thread kind of sour the victory though. There has been no end to PK wannabees and OCD hardasses on these forums making thread after thread, each one more unintelligent then the other about how PvP is teh 1337 and all carebears must die and so on and so forth. And trough all this I have taken great comfort in the fact that the PvP community, ( not all of it of course, the real PvP crowd has probably been as pissed about them posts as the PvE people have been happy about them ), have kept putting their proverbial foots in their mouths. The retarded banter by so many "Old school UO veterens" ( again probably not all that many actual old UO players ), is probably a big part of the reason why the PvE crowd "won". So I ask, why could we not have taken this win with some dignity and humility? Would have made it oh so much sweeter. Poor loosers are annoying, poor winners are just sad. And quite frankly something I would expect from the 'other' side, not from our own.
You're joking right? This is one of the best threads ever made ..... ever.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Yep. You are sooo right. Cuz today's Trammel Ultima Online so pwns Pre-Trammel UO right?
I don't enjoy hardcore PvP so that I can gank people and loot their crap. Rather, I enjoy it as in playing the low level character out trying to mine some ore to sell to buy some better armor and very much ENJOY the RISK and the CHALLENGE of being ganked by some hi level red pk'er! It's friggin FUN as hell! Any dumbass can run from a high level mob or kill a mob that they know they can own. After the 95,000th time, how much fun is that? I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a blast and gets my blood pumping man!
You carebears really just do not understand how much damn fun the old school Ultima Online and Darktide servers of Asherons Call were back in the day. You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today.
Before you proclaim how damn proud you are of today's mmo crap-fest, please atleast have some REAL knowledge of what it actually is that we hardcore PvP players really miss so much. Otherwise, you simply make a fool of yourselves for talking about something that you really have no or very little actual knowledge of. It really is like saying that todays musicians like Britney fuggin Spears is sooo much better then the old school musicians like Bob Dylan and The Eagles without ever even listening to such classic music. It's simply foolish. Enough said.
But I'm glad you are proud of your BS mmos like WoW and Guild Wars. I'm glad that you enjoy them. You have a blast playing them while you listen to your modern corporate America music while I play some old-school UO pre Trammel style as I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
This is well sad. PvP and PvM have both its place in mmorpg's. None is better then the other. Thhis is a stupid post indeed.
------------------------------------------------------ Do I ever sleep?
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Yep. You are sooo right. Cuz today's Trammel Ultima Online so pwns Pre-Trammel UO right?
I don't enjoy hardcore PvP so that I can gank people and loot their crap. Rather, I enjoy it as in playing the low level character out trying to mine some ore to sell to buy some better armor and very much ENJOY the RISK and the CHALLENGE of being ganked by some hi level red pk'er! It's friggin FUN as hell! Any dumbass can run from a high level mob or kill a mob that they know they can own. After the 95,000th time, how much fun is that? I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a blast and gets my blood pumping man!
You carebears really just do not understand how much damn fun the old school Ultima Online and Darktide servers of Asherons Call were back in the day. You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today.
Before you proclaim how damn proud you are of today's mmo crap-fest, please atleast have some REAL knowledge of what it actually is that we hardcore PvP players really miss so much. Otherwise, you simply make a fool of yourselves for talking about something that you really have no or very little actual knowledge of. It really is like saying that todays musicians like Britney fuggin Spears is sooo much better then the old school musicians like Bob Dylan and The Eagles without ever even listening to such classic music. It's simply foolish. Enough said.
But I'm glad you are proud of your BS mmos like WoW and Guild Wars. I'm glad that you enjoy them. You have a blast playing them while you listen to your modern corporate America music while I play some old-school UO pre Trammel style as I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen.
Peace!
- Zaxx
Old-school UO Trammel style???? Are you on crack, because you must be playing it in your mind? Oh and by the way both Stevie Ray Vaughen and Van Halen were main stream corporate American music. There songs could be heard on any top 40 radio station, so don't think you're into so hardcore underground music. LMAO!
One more point, you so called hardcore crowd act as if MMOs where so much better "back in the day". If this was so then why did the devs feel they needed to be changed? I'll tell you why, because the people playing them didn't enjoy it. Sure there's a few of you who enjoyed ganking, but the majority was heard. So cry somemore.
Originally posted by zaxtor99 Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs. -------------------------------------------------------------- Yep. You are sooo right. Cuz today's Trammel Ultima Online so pwns Pre-Trammel UO right? I don't enjoy hardcore PvP so that I can gank people and loot their crap. Rather, I enjoy it as in playing the low level character out trying to mine some ore to sell to buy some better armor and very much ENJOY the RISK and the CHALLENGE of being ganked by some hi level red pk'er! It's friggin FUN as hell! Any dumbass can run from a high level mob or kill a mob that they know they can own. After the 95,000th time, how much fun is that? I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a blast and gets my blood pumping man! You carebears really just do not understand how much damn fun the old school Ultima Online and Darktide servers of Asherons Call were back in the day. You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today. Before you proclaim how damn proud you are of today's mmo crap-fest, please atleast have some REAL knowledge of what it actually is that we hardcore PvP players really miss so much. Otherwise, you simply make a fool of yourselves for talking about something that you really have no or very little actual knowledge of. It really is like saying that todays musicians like Britney fuggin Spears is sooo much better then the old school musicians like Bob Dylan and The Eagles without ever even listening to such classic music. It's simply foolish. Enough said. But I'm glad you are proud of your BS mmos like WoW and Guild Wars. I'm glad that you enjoy them. You have a blast playing them while you listen to your modern corporate America music while I play some old-school UO pre Trammel style as I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen. Peace! - Zaxx
this is starting to get old Zax. "You don't like the games I like, so you just don't understand and never played them." get over yourself. not everybody is looking for the same thing as you do in mmorpg. PvE players DO understand, they just don't consider it fun.
"trying to get revenge on that guy" sure, its just a damn shame the guy is 30 levels higher then you are, so there is no such thing as "revenge". fair pvp fights are VERY rare in ffa "hardcore" pvp.
also, I beg to differ on your comment in Lineage 2, considering at higher levels, one piece of equipment is worth more money and requires more effort then your entire inventory in AC:DT and Pre-Tram UO...but ah, yes, you reached lvl 20 in L2.
UO worked when it was the only game in town, because you had the wolves and the sheep. When the PvEers had alternatives(notably, EQ1 and later on Trammel), the PvPers walked off, too, because UO with all reds was boring as hell. You can guess why 'classic UO freeshards' aren't very popular, either.
UO was fun as hell when everyone who played an MMO pretty much played it, but it went downhill well before Trammel. Trammel just spelled out precisely why UO didn't work with competition.
You can create all the 'hardkor' pvp games you want, but they aren't going to be all that successful.
Me, personally? I moved from PKing in UO to playing FPSes. That's how i compete with other players. I like how it basically gets rid of the barriers to competition, like 'skill systems' and 'class systems'.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Can you cry and whine more you pussie.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by zaxtor99
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs. -------------------------------------------------------------- Yep. You are sooo right. Cuz today's Trammel Ultima Online so pwns Pre-Trammel UO right? I don't enjoy hardcore PvP so that I can gank people and loot their crap. Rather, I enjoy it as in playing the low level character out trying to mine some ore to sell to buy some better armor and very much ENJOY the RISK and the CHALLENGE of being ganked by some hi level red pk'er! It's friggin FUN as hell! Any dumbass can run from a high level mob or kill a mob that they know they can own. After the 95,000th time, how much fun is that? I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a blast and gets my blood pumping man! You carebears really just do not understand how much damn fun the old school Ultima Online and Darktide servers of Asherons Call were back in the day. You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today. Before you proclaim how damn proud you are of today's mmo crap-fest, please atleast have some REAL knowledge of what it actually is that we hardcore PvP players really miss so much. Otherwise, you simply make a fool of yourselves for talking about something that you really have no or very little actual knowledge of. It really is like saying that todays musicians like Britney fuggin Spears is sooo much better then the old school musicians like Bob Dylan and The Eagles without ever even listening to such classic music. It's simply foolish. Enough said. But I'm glad you are proud of your BS mmos like WoW and Guild Wars. I'm glad that you enjoy them. You have a blast playing them while you listen to your modern corporate America music while I play some old-school UO pre Trammel style as I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen. Peace! - Zaxx
this is starting to get old Zax. "You don't like the games I like, so you just don't understand and never played them." get over yourself. not everybody is looking for the same thing as you do in mmorpg. PvE players DO understand, they just don't consider it fun.
"trying to get revenge on that guy" sure, its just a damn shame the guy is 30 levels higher then you are, so there is no such thing as "revenge". fair pvp fights are VERY rare in ffa "hardcore" pvp.
also, I beg to differ on your comment in Lineage 2, considering at higher levels, one piece of equipment is worth more money and requires more effort then your entire inventory in AC:DT and Pre-Tram UO...but ah, yes, you reached lvl 20 in L2.
That's pretty much true in level-based MMO's, but UO was SKILL based, there were no levels, so there was no "20 levels higher" BS that is common in today's MMO. Everyone was on the same level character wise, which only leaves 2 other factors, gear and player skill. In UO with free looting if you ran around in your best gear you're pretty much guaranteed to lose it, so most would just go out in the gear aquired through either killing mobs, or crafting. This basically put everyone on the same page gear-wise, which leaves only player skill to determine who wins and who dies.
THIS is why gear-centric level-based MMO suck for player economy and PVP, they are designed and balanced as PVE game with PVP bolted on after the fact and it shows.
MMO Devs need to decide whether they want to make a PVP-centric MMO or a PVE-centric MMO and stick to it
Comments
I'm afraid its not this simple.
Both "carebears" and "griefers" were defeated by what I call the "Standard Type Favorite User" or "S.T.F.U." for short.
It used to be that we didn't talk about "carebears," or "griefers." We never talked about "catasses," and "whiners." All of those things sound like each of the playstyles I used to know worded like a disease on the games, rather than as distinct playstyles in their own right.
What we call a "carebear" was an "explorer." Explorers put safety and survival first, because they wanted to stay alive long enough to explore new things, and new ways of doing things. Such people were not a plague, or a wuss, but a benefit to everyone, because they were the ones that taught everyone else.
What we call a "griefer" used to be called a "killer." Killers wanted to fight other players, because it was a challenge and necessary. Such people were not necessarily a curse, but could be beneficial, because they were the ones you called if you had a problem.
What we call a "catass" was an "achiever." Achievers wanted to go for the biggest prizes that others could not or would not do. These people were not necessarily unbalancing, but provided everyone with the things they couldn't otherwise get.
What we call a "whiner," was a socializer. Socializers had a flair for words, and for the dramatic. These people were not necessarily emotionally challenged, but provided everyone else with plots and storylines that would give everyone else some context, and direction.
Now as much as these playstyles compliment eachother, they also conflict, and blame eachother from time to time without examining how connected they all are.
Yes, we have PvPers complain about "catass grinding," or "carebearing," or "whiny RPers," but without someone to do the grinding, or wanting to play it safe, or to create the RP drama, they have no focus, and no direction and just PvP in a meaningless gankfest.
Yes, we have achievers complain about gankers upsetting their grinds, or soloists wanting less of a raid atmosphere, or RPers complaining about people playing in character. Without these people though, the achiever will not have any reason to even be at the keys, and they might as well macro.
We have explorers complain about gankers not wanting to have to search for prey, achievers yelling about "risk versus reward," and whiners yelling about "if you want solo play, you shouldn't be in an MMO." But without all of these people, the explorer wouldn't have anybody to teach, or to show.
We do have social players complain about solo play, breaking immersion, and nasty grief, but without these people who do exploring, grinding, and PKing, all they will have is a "glorified chat room," that's unconnected with anything else and becoming more meaningless.
As a result, the companies when they read thread after thread of, "I don't want grief," take out the things that killers enjoy. When they read thread after thread of, "I want to get into the action now," take out the things that explorers enjoy. When they read thread after thread of, "there is no point in doing the MOBs if I don't get a reward I can use," take out the things that achievers enjoy. When they read threads saying, "I don't see the point in being an audience to this character drama," they take out things that help immersion, and roleplay.
The result is that nobody designs for particular player tastes anymore, and instead, they serve some generic stuff that's agreeable to most, but not fulfilling to each particular person. We get boring, contrived PvP that turns into "spreadsheet versus spreadsheet" in arenas or exclusive PvP zones. We get instances, progression-specific zoning, and help guides giving out all the secrets we used to explore in order to get. We get farmers, uberguilds, DKPs, and a defacto mandatory TS/Vent requirement to get functional loots most efficiently, making achievement really boring and unimmersive. We get immersion thrown out the window, a lack of emotes, a lack of decorative elements, and a total disregard for character roleplaying.
What is the cause of all this? Groups of players that for some reason or another felt that if they could just get rid of those damn "carebears," or "griefers," or "catasses," or "whiners," that they don't want to play around, they would be happy.
The result is that measures have been taken to keep them away, and now, none of us are happy.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
yes you carebears won. and what do we all get? countless people saying how the MMORPG market is going down, how stupid and boring games are, lack of innovation, only grind grind grind. i see at least 2 or 3 posts everyday crying for lack of any good game that isnt just kill, deliver, kill, deliver.
well, that is what you all carebears did with your wallet. thanks a lot. i am sure you are proud of it. and many people will thank you for that. you have carebears have single handendly killed any possible interest, challenge or innovation that could be made into MMORPGs. now everything is a EQ clone. and that is what most people are tired of. that is what people is complaining about.
yes, you won.
If so then I'm afraid I'll have to disagree (and if not I'm sorry for misinterpreting -- but I'm going to say this anyway because I've heard it from too many other people). I have, in fact, had characters that were basically capped in power level. I have one on COH right now. In pre-CU SWG, I had a very powerful MTKA/MCH with a super-strong bio-engineered cat who was built to basically take on humanoid NPCs (resisting their damage types -- meaning the same damage types most PCs put out)... I could easily have "pwned" anyone but a J3d-3y3. And did a few times in friendly duels. Heck my cat alone could "pwn" other players without me lifting a finger, most of the time -- it was that over-powered.
Had I wanted to, I could easily have gone "Overt rebel" and run around places like Theed ganking Imperial players. I simply had no interest in doing so because I honestly don't find it fun. I had more fun teaming up with friends and exploring dangerous places like the Force Crystal caves... or hunting around Dathomir for a baby rancor to tame.
I had a friend who was a CH/Pistoleer, and he had the most powerful Krayt pistol on the server. He could kick just about anyone's butt (other than perhaps a full templted J3d-3y3, though there weren't many back when he played). But he, too, was more interested in cooperation than competition and other than friendly duels, stayed neutral and avoided open PVP. He did not do this because he was "chicken". And he did not do this because he "couldn't win" (he beat me all the time in friendly duels -- in fact I never saw him lose a duel in 6 months of play time, against anyone). He did this because he was not interested in PKing.
I think "carebears" usually are a personality type, and it has little to do with how "powerful" their character is. Believe it or not there are very good, skilled players out there who simply do not find PKing and ganking people to be fun.
C
Combat mechanics make it easier and easier for people to escape any situation that they find themselves in, which oddly enough doesnt help the people whining about PvP (if they were smart, they wouldnt have a problem in the first place). It just means that its possible to PvP essentially without risk if youre smart and play the good odds.
Now the last of meaningful PvP in EVE is located around POS structures, and the numbers and capital investment required to do so are enormous. Not necessairly a problem, it only becomes so when you realize that the EVE servers are totally incapable of supporting battles on that scale, making any attempt to dislodge an enemy with even the smallest amount of commonsense utterly futile.
No, while EVE is nominally still for PvPers, thats a war thats being lost as well. Not even because of the PvE crowd, as EVE has gradually attracted most of the real PvPers remaining in the MMOG market, but simply due to a lack of foresight and a failure of vision from the development team.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Thanks for posting Kyle, you are the very type of 1337 kiddie 13 year old griefer wanna-be that I am talking about in this thread. We don't want to play games with people like you, now turn off your Mom's Emachine, turn on the Disney Channel and take a nap so you're not grumpy at school tomorrow.
Odd that it took so long for him to show up isnt it? perhaps there arent as many of his type after all
By the way, can we find some term to use other than carebear? I always get the feeling im putting someone down, its like me (a white guy) calling someone a "nigger" in real life. Anti-PK is the old term, but that is dated and doesnt remotely fit anymore
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Odd that it took so long for him to show up isnt it? perhaps there arent as many of his type after all
By the way, can we find some term to use other than carebear? I always get the feeling im putting someone down, its like me (a white guy) calling someone a "nigger" in real life. Anti-PK is the old term, but that is dated and doesnt remotely fit anymore
Anti-PKs fight people they consider PKers using the PvP rules inharent in the game.
Carebears fight PvPers using whines to the developers.
The term is apt.
Stab it in the FACE
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Its a definition, not a statement. People who use carebear merely to describe people who do not wish to PvP are using it incorrectly.
That's still not a single thread from someone who identifies themselves as a crafter talking about how they want open PVP, full-loot games, it's just more from EVE fanboys cheering about EVE. There just don't seem to be any crafters hanging around going 'boy, I'd love a full-loot, open PVP game', just 'hardcore' PVPers posting threads complaining.
Personally I was distinctly unimpressed with EVE's market (yawn for massive PVE grinding and pure luck to get blueprints), and sweeping claims about how it's so far above what anyone else does just trigger my 'great, another EVE fanatic' warning light. I see threads where people claim that EVE is the greatest thing since sliced bread, cures cancer, and brings peace to the middle east, that doesn't mean that I take them seriously.
yes you carebears won. and what do we all get? countless people saying how the MMORPG market is going down, how stupid and boring games are, lack of innovation, only grind grind grind. i see at least 2 or 3 posts everyday crying for lack of any good game that isnt just kill, deliver, kill, deliver.
well, that is what you all carebears did with your wallet. thanks a lot. i am sure you are proud of it. and many people will thank you for that. you have carebears have single handendly killed any possible interest, challenge or innovation that could be made into MMORPGs. now everything is a EQ clone. and that is what most people are tired of. that is what people is complaining about.
yes, you won.
preach boy! thanks so much to carebears! the actual MMORPG situation is your complete success!
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Thanks for posting Kyle, you are the very type of 1337 kiddie 13 year old griefer wanna-be that I am talking about in this thread. We don't want to play games with people like you, now turn off your Mom's Emachine, turn on the Disney Channel and take a nap so you're not grumpy at school tomorrow.
Im not grumpy I just look depressed, thats a common mistake many people make, just because you look depressed doesnt really mean you are. And if Im playing a p2p game my parents dont pay for me I do. And seeing as I have not income because Im a kid, I dont have very much stable money and I really hate the disney channel, my sister has to record every episode of hanna montana or god knows what the play on that channel, Id rather watch law and order or without a trace.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
This thread kind of sour the victory though.
There has been no end to PK wannabees and OCD hardasses on these forums making thread after thread, each one more unintelligent then the other about how PvP is teh 1337 and all carebears must die and so on and so forth.
And trough all this I have taken great comfort in the fact that the PvP community, ( not all of it of course, the real PvP crowd has probably been as pissed about them posts as the PvE people have been happy about them ), have kept putting their proverbial foots in their mouths.
The retarded banter by so many "Old school UO veterens" ( again probably not all that many actual old UO players ), is probably a big part of the reason why the PvE crowd "won".
So I ask, why could we not have taken this win with some dignity and humility?
Would have made it oh so much sweeter.
Poor loosers are annoying, poor winners are just sad.
And quite frankly something I would expect from the 'other' side, not from our own.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Originally posted by BuZZKilgore
Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game.
The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. You are sooo right. Cuz today's Trammel Ultima Online so pwns Pre-Trammel UO right?
I don't enjoy hardcore PvP so that I can gank people and loot their crap. Rather, I enjoy it as in playing the low level character out trying to mine some ore to sell to buy some better armor and very much ENJOY the RISK and the CHALLENGE of being ganked by some hi level red pk'er! It's friggin FUN as hell! Any dumbass can run from a high level mob or kill a mob that they know they can own. After the 95,000th time, how much fun is that? I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a blast and gets my blood pumping man!
You carebears really just do not understand how much damn fun the old school Ultima Online and Darktide servers of Asherons Call were back in the day. You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today.
Before you proclaim how damn proud you are of today's mmo crap-fest, please atleast have some REAL knowledge of what it actually is that we hardcore PvP players really miss so much. Otherwise, you simply make a fool of yourselves for talking about something that you really have no or very little actual knowledge of. It really is like saying that todays musicians like Britney fuggin Spears is sooo much better then the old school musicians like Bob Dylan and The Eagles without ever even listening to such classic music. It's simply foolish. Enough said.
But I'm glad you are proud of your BS mmos like WoW and Guild Wars. I'm glad that you enjoy them. You have a blast playing them while you listen to your modern corporate America music while I play some old-school UO pre Trammel style as I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen.
Peace!
- Zaxx
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Do I ever sleep?
One more point, you so called hardcore crowd act as if MMOs where so much better "back in the day". If this was so then why did the devs feel they needed to be changed? I'll tell you why, because the people playing them didn't enjoy it. Sure there's a few of you who enjoyed ganking, but the majority was heard. So cry somemore.
"trying to get revenge on that guy" sure, its just a damn shame the guy is 30 levels higher then you are, so there is no such thing as "revenge". fair pvp fights are VERY rare in ffa "hardcore" pvp.
also, I beg to differ on your comment in Lineage 2, considering at higher levels, one piece of equipment is worth more money and requires more effort then your entire inventory in AC:DT and Pre-Tram UO...but ah, yes, you reached lvl 20 in L2.
UO worked when it was the only game in town, because you had the wolves and the sheep. When the PvEers had alternatives(notably, EQ1 and later on Trammel), the PvPers walked off, too, because UO with all reds was boring as hell. You can guess why 'classic UO freeshards' aren't very popular, either.
UO was fun as hell when everyone who played an MMO pretty much played it, but it went downhill well before Trammel. Trammel just spelled out precisely why UO didn't work with competition.
You can create all the 'hardkor' pvp games you want, but they aren't going to be all that successful.
Me, personally? I moved from PKing in UO to playing FPSes. That's how i compete with other players. I like how it basically gets rid of the barriers to competition, like 'skill systems' and 'class systems'.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
"trying to get revenge on that guy" sure, its just a damn shame the guy is 30 levels higher then you are, so there is no such thing as "revenge". fair pvp fights are VERY rare in ffa "hardcore" pvp.
also, I beg to differ on your comment in Lineage 2, considering at higher levels, one piece of equipment is worth more money and requires more effort then your entire inventory in AC:DT and Pre-Tram UO...but ah, yes, you reached lvl 20 in L2.
That's pretty much true in level-based MMO's, but UO was SKILL based, there were no levels, so there was no "20 levels higher" BS that is common in today's MMO. Everyone was on the same level character wise, which only leaves 2 other factors, gear and player skill. In UO with free looting if you ran around in your best gear you're pretty much guaranteed to lose it, so most would just go out in the gear aquired through either killing mobs, or crafting. This basically put everyone on the same page gear-wise, which leaves only player skill to determine who wins and who dies.
THIS is why gear-centric level-based MMO suck for player economy and PVP, they are designed and balanced as PVE game with PVP bolted on after the fact and it shows.
MMO Devs need to decide whether they want to make a PVP-centric MMO or a PVE-centric MMO and stick to it