In UO it was higher skill, there really isn't a diffrence. not to mention not only level/skill plays a big role, but equipment does as well. it will never be a fair fights.
Originally posted by Gameloading In UO it was higher skill, there really isn't a diffrence. not to mention not only level/skill plays a big role, but equipment does as well. it will never be a fair fights.
Higher skill didn't mean that much in UO, it really didn't and neither did gear. The only thing that skill levels did in UO was determine how much/often you fizzled. Did you even read what I typed?
If loot drops and crafted gear are identical then there is no gear as a factor.
You really seem to have a hard time understanding how different skill-based game mechanics are from level-based.
Actually, from my experience with class/level based and skill based, is that the only diffrence is that the only diffrence is more room for customization with skill based gameplay. those that have more skills, and thus been playing longer, and better gear still have a HUGE advantage.
Originally posted by zaxtor99 I don't enjoy hardcore PvP so that I can gank people and loot their crap.
Then why all the complaining that games don't let you do that? You can make PVP as risky for yourself as you want without any special game mechanics. When you lose a fight, just delete however much stuff you think is appropriate if you lose a fight, and you've just given yourself PVP with all of the risk but without the ability to gank people and take their stuff.
You have a blast playing them while you listen to your modern corporate America music while... I listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Stevie Ray Vaughan was not exactly 'underground', and Van Halen was full-on for-profit, big-record-label music. I like old VH, but you're just fooling yourself if you think they're less corporate rock than bands today.
while I play some old-school UO pre Trammel style
Why exactly does pre-Trammel UO make a better game for you? You said you don't like beating people up and taking their stuff, so it shouldn't matter if there's a place for other people to go do stuff in-game where you can't virtually beat them up for their lunch money. Really, post-trammel UO should be even better for you, since it means the reds will have fewer targets, thus providing more opportunities for your low-level character to be beaten and looted, and for you to go get revenge.
Originally posted by Gameloading Actually, from my experience with class/level based and skill based, is that the only diffrence is that the only diffrence is more room for customization with skill based gameplay. those that have more skills, and thus been playing longer, and better gear still have a HUGE advantage.
From my experience that is not the case. Hell even in level-based games that is not always the case. Take the level 50 me and 2 other 10+ level lower (36 me, 32 and 30) guildies took out the other day EQ2 Nagafen PVP server. He put up a hell of a fight but we outplayed him and won.
In skill based there wouldn't even be that big of a difference to begin with.
Skill-based encourages smart character building, in level based you are not really even building your character, you're just following the dev-planned path to max-level.
I'll say it one more time, please listen. Gear made virtually NO difference in original UO and neither does it in EVE. The slight advantage in damage or anything else is insignificant compared to how well the character is played.
Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by Gameloading Actually, from my experience with class/level based and skill based, is that the only diffrence is that the only diffrence is more room for customization with skill based gameplay. those that have more skills, and thus been playing longer, and better gear still have a HUGE advantage.
From my experience that is not the case. Hell even in level-based games that is not always the case. Take the level 50 me and 2 other 10+ level lower (36 me, 32 and 30) guildies took out the other day EQ2 Nagafen PVP server. He put up a hell of a fight but we outplayed him and won.
In skill based there wouldn't even be that big of a difference to begin with.
Actually, it IS the diffrence in UO. I don't know which UO you played, but there sure as hell was a big diffrence by someone who played 2 months and someone who played 3 months. also, was the Everquest 2 example supposed to prove your point? saying you need 3 people just to take one person down is not a good example.
Skill-based encourages smart character building, in level based you are not really even building your character, you're just following the dev-planned path to max-level.
I'll say it one more time, please listen. Gear made virtually NO difference in original UO and neither does it in EVE. The slight advantage in damage or anything else is insignificant compared to how well the character is played.
actually, I did listen, but I just consider it bull, because that really isn't what UO was like. maybe you might consider UO "player skill", but those with a reasonable hand-eye coordination won't consider a few clicks "player skill". gear and skill level DID make a diffrence in old UO. it was an mmorpg, not a FPS.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by Gameloading Actually, from my experience with class/level based and skill based, is that the only diffrence is that the only diffrence is more room for customization with skill based gameplay. those that have more skills, and thus been playing longer, and better gear still have a HUGE advantage.
From my experience that is not the case. Hell even in level-based games that is not always the case. Take the level 50 me and 2 other 10+ level lower (36 me, 32 and 30) guildies took out the other day EQ2 Nagafen PVP server. He put up a hell of a fight but we outplayed him and won.
In skill based there wouldn't even be that big of a difference to begin with.
Actually, it IS the diffrence in UO. I don't know which UO you played, but there sure as hell was a big diffrence by someone who played 2 months and someone who played 3 months. also, was the Everquest 2 example supposed to prove your point? saying you need 3 people just to take one person down is not a good example.
I'm sorry but I never had any problems with that at all and I played for the first 2 years the game was live. I never used macro programs or anything to 'cheat' in that game and I did just fine.
Also the EQ2 example was an extreme case of level difference. If the player had known how to use his character well he would have stomped us, easily. Apparently he didn't and he lost. The same day me and a guildie got jumped by a 42, he beat us easily. He was playing his character well and as a result he beat us. No problem in that. I never hesitate to attack players higher level than me in EQ2, why would I? Cause I may die, oh well, who cares. At least I tried and anytime I won it's because I outplayed them, it could easily go the other way next time.
Skill-based encourages smart character building, in level based you are not really even building your character, you're just following the dev-planned path to max-level.
I'll say it one more time, please listen. Gear made virtually NO difference in original UO and neither does it in EVE. The slight advantage in damage or anything else is insignificant compared to how well the character is played.
actually, I did listen, but I just consider it bull, because that really isn't what UO was like. maybe you might consider UO "player skill", but those with a reasonable hand-eye coordination won't consider a few clicks "player skill". gear and skill level DID make a diffrence in old UO. it was an mmorpg, not a FPS.
Whether you consider it bull or not, many people had no problems competing regardless ofwhat equipment they were wearing and what level their skills were at. If you couldn't then that is your problem.
what i really dont get is why if carebears are so happy they won the war against pkers, why are they so fucked up with the mmorpg state. all i see is people whining cause all the games are the same, just grinding and killing mobs.
great, you carebears won. i hope you are having a blast with your stupid wowish games. well, wowish or eq-ish, it really doesnt matter.
Originally posted by Gameloading this is starting to get old Zax. "You don't like the games I like, so you just don't understand and never played them." get over yourself. not everybody is looking for the same thing as you do in mmorpg.
Agreed. But also, not everybody is looking for a stream-lined, made only for the masses, easy as hell "World of Warcraft" either.
PvE players DO understand, they just don't consider it fun. "trying to get revenge on that guy" sure, its just a damn shame the guy is 30 levels higher then you are, so there is no such thing as "revenge". fair pvp fights are VERY rare in ffa "hardcore" pvp.
WTF are you talking about?!??? Again I refer back to my point that you people don't even know what the hell pre-trammel UO and AC Darktide were back in the day. You are talking about UO and saying the guy was 30 levels higher then yourself so it wasn't a fair fight???? A) UO didn't have any levels. It used a skill based system or are you confusing UO with ummm L2 or some gay crap? Revenge could be attained EASILY in old school UO. It only required using your head and skill to get the advantage. But you wouldn't know about that woulod you? In all your gear based, get the highest level and show off your uber loot PvE games, that's well... pretty much all you know. And it's obvious.
also, I beg to differ on your comment in Lineage 2, considering at higher levels, one piece of equipment is worth more money and requires more effort then your entire inventory in AC:DT and Pre-Tram UO...but ah, yes, you reached lvl 20 in L2.
Again, you are so warped with all of your gear based 'loot the mob' stream lined crap games that you fail to realize what great games AC and old school UO really are. You talk bad about them, but you have no knowledge what-so-ever about you speak so loud about! One piece of Lineage 2 equipment is worth more then all my inventory in AC eh? Reallly???? I remember when AC no drop shadow armor was going for over $1,000 real cash on ebay for a set of it! I guess that you mean that one piece of your L2 gear now days is worth about 100 times that much, because back in the day... the inventory for an AC toon could have been extremely valuable if it had been sold on ebay. I only reference ebay because obviously there is no way to compare L2 currency to ACs currency.
But regardless, assuming that your point has merit (which is doesn't).. wtf would that prove anyhow?? Because a games gear is more valuable then old school games, that is somehow a better game?? Ummm no. We all know that the best game is completely variable and it depends on who is playing. My best game is obviously a helluva lot different then yours. And that's fine. But when you newbs come crying or parading that all the new PvE crap is better then the old school mmos, that's where you make a fool of yourself. Especially when you do things as you have done gameloading and tell me that UO had "levels". Don't even tell me that you wasn't talking about UO either because you were. You were reacting to my example of my UO experience and telling me that I couldnt posibly have ever got revenge on a red pk'er becuase they were always like "30 levels higher". Also you speak to me about only playing L2 until I was level 20. That was obviously a helluva lot more time spent in L2 then you ever spent playing pre-Trammel Ultima Online. Because you know nothing about it if you really think players were all 30 levels higher then you. Uh huh. GBTW you uber noob. Tell me wtf "corp por" means without looking it up and you might have a damn clue. Until then, like I say... GBTW and oh yes... STFU about shit you know NOTHING about.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Old-school UO Trammel style???? Are you on crack, because you must be playing it in your mind? Oh and by the way both Stevie Ray Vaughen and Van Halen were main stream corporate American music. There songs could be heard on any top 40 radio station, so don't think you're into so hardcore underground music. LMAO!
Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen both did something different then todays mainstream music however. They did something called actually write their own music and they sang to their own guitar and equipment sounds. Todays most popular music by comparison is written by corporate writers who write songs based on what they know will sell best and typically they sing to ultra-computerized, highly synthesized tunes that are played while some schmuck makes a "playing the guitar" motion. There was something called actual skill required to produce the music I prefer, hmmm somewhat similar to the mmos I prefer over todays games like WoW too. How ironic eh?
One more point, you so called hardcore crowd act as if MMOs where so much better "back in the day". If this was so then why did the devs feel they needed to be changed? I'll tell you why, because the people playing them didn't enjoy it. Sure there's a few of you who enjoyed ganking, but the majority was heard. So cry somemore.
They changed them to make more money, that's painfully obvious. Yes, I agree that most people don't like challenging games. This is also why most gamers look up cheat codes for almost every damn halfway challenging game that they come across. Most people are too stupid to realize that most of the fun comes in something called "challenge". So therefore, most people are stupid. The majority of people are stupid. Great. I guess that would also explain why so many agree with you. But don't laugh too hard about it while you type in your cheat codes for Oblivion and look for the simplest, easiest mmo possible. You are missing out, trust me. I have played games like WoW. And I have played the old school PvP mmos too. And I know exactly why you hate them. You hate them for the exact same reason that I love them. It's called "challenge". You can call it everything you desire... ganking, grief-fest, whatever. But it all comes down to one word honestly. You hate something called a "challenge". You just can't figure out how to beat something other then mobs who have level indicators so that you know exactly how tough they are compared to yourself. And you go and grind all day long killing "blue" mobs all day long... mindlessly, effortlessly, and thoughtlessly. And you level up. And you amass lots of cool loot. Whoooo. Fun for you. Bore-fest for me. I'd MUCH rather get griefed to death by highly skilled red pkers in Pre-Trammel UO, trust me. I wanna figure out how to beat them. I wanna figure out how to avoid them and skill up to come back and beat guys like them. Any dope can figure out how to whip a computer controlled mob. That gets so old to me after the billionth time or so. Humans however are much more interesting and challenging to me... even if they are "ganking" me. See, I like to do something called "thinking" when I play mmos. I actually "think" and either go to a new spot if I really dont wanna be ganked again or I figure out how to beat the ganker at their own game. I know you wouldn't understand that as you mindlessly tap the same hot key over and over killing your 150 billionth blue mob however.
Enjoy your stream-lined mmos buddy. But don't brag that you are better because there are more stupid games made these days for more stupid people and players. That's kinda like bragging that you beat a game using some "invincible God" cheat code to beat it.
Originally posted by zaxtor99 Originally posted by Gameloading this is starting to get old Zax. "You don't like the games I like, so you just don't understand and never played them." get over yourself. not everybody is looking for the same thing as you do in mmorpg.
Agreed. But also, not everybody is looking for a stream-lined, made only for the masses, easy as hell "World of Warcraft" either.
That is not what I said. the point I made is that "those who don't like FFA pvp just don't have a clue" is absolutely Bull
PvE players DO understand, they just don't consider it fun. "trying to get revenge on that guy" sure, its just a damn shame the guy is 30 levels higher then you are, so there is no such thing as "revenge". fair pvp fights are VERY rare in ffa "hardcore" pvp.
WTF are you talking about?!??? Again I refer back to my point that you people don't even know what the hell pre-trammel UO and AC Darktide were back in the day. You are talking about UO and saying the guy was 30 levels higher then yourself so it wasn't a fair fight???? A) UO didn't have any levels. It used a skill based system or are you confusing UO with ummm L2 or some gay crap?
UO had a skill based system? wow, really, I had NO idea.[/sarcasm]
is it really that hard to figure out that I used the term levels, because most games use levels as character advancement, instead of skills?
Ofcourse I know UO has skills instead of levels. just change levels with skills, its really THAT simple.
Revenge could be attained EASILY in old school UO. It only required using your head and skill to get the advantage. But you wouldn't know about that woulod you? In all your gear based, get the highest level and show off your uber loot PvE games, that's well... pretty much all you know. And it's obvious.
yeah, if you get together a few friends, then you can get er.."Revenge". there was hardly any skill in Old school UO. go play old school UO, and then compare it to a FPS like battlefield 2 or Counter strike. THOSE are games that are based on player skill. I can only name one mmo that had a bit of playerskill in pvp, and that was AC:DT, but even there a time played=Huge advantage.
also, I beg to differ on your comment in Lineage 2, considering at higher levels, one piece of equipment is worth more money and requires more effort then your entire inventory in AC:DT and Pre-Tram UO...but ah, yes, you reached lvl 20 in L2.
Again, you are so warped with all of your gear based 'loot the mob' stream lined crap games that you fail to realize what great games AC and old school UO really are. You talk bad about them, but you have no knowledge what-so-ever about you speak so loud about! One piece of Lineage 2 equipment is worth more then all my inventory in AC eh? Reallly???? I remember when AC no drop shadow armor was going for over $1,000 real cash on ebay for a set of it! I guess that you mean that one piece of your L2 gear now days is worth about 100 times that much, because back in the day... the inventory for an AC toon could have been extremely valuable if it had been sold on ebay. I only reference ebay because obviously there is no way to compare L2 currency to ACs currency.
wow, you found one item on ebay, lets now base the entire economy on that!
get real. reaching a high level and equiping character with good equipment takes Months of work. it takes weeks to get money just to buy equipment when you reach the mid-game. anybody who played Lineage 2 for a reasonable amount of time would know that, but ah, its such a pity, you only played till level 20.
But regardless, assuming that your point has merit (which is doesn't).. wtf would that prove anyhow?? Because a games gear is more valuable then old school games, that is somehow a better game?? Ummm no.
that comment was based on this lines of text you posed:
You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today. thats completely Bull, because Lineage 2 has more risk then AC:DT and Ultima Online.
We all know that the best game is completely variable and it depends on who is playing. My best game is obviously a helluva lot different then yours. And that's fine. But when you newbs come crying or parading that all the new PvE crap is better then the old school mmos, that's where you make a fool of yourself. saying: "those who don't play my game's just don't have a clue", now that really doesn't make you look like a fool
Especially when you do things as you have done gameloading and tell me that UO had "levels". Don't even tell me that you wasn't talking about UO either because you were. not really. I was talking about levels because I was talking about hardcore pvp mmo's in general. I used level based because thats obviously the way many games use character development. NEVER did I say UO was level based. please read a post first.
You were reacting to my example of my UO experience and telling me that I couldnt posibly have ever got revenge on a red pk'er becuase they were always like "30 levels higher".
My comment about that was based on this lines of text:
I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a blast and gets my blood pumping man! I high lighted an important part. knock yourself out.
Also you speak to me about only playing L2 until I was level 20. That was obviously a helluva lot more time spent in L2 then you ever spent playing pre-Trammel Ultima Online. Because you know nothing about it if you really think players were all 30 levels higher then you. Uh huh. GBTW you uber noob. Tell me wtf "corp por" means without looking it up and you might have a damn clue. Until then, like I say... GBTW and oh yes... STFU about shit you know NOTHING about. - Zaxx wow, keep going mate. I did play UO pre-tram, sorry that I disagree with your er.."view".
One question Gameloading, what dictates the price of items in L2? Are the prices being dictated by the players or by the Devs plus rediculous inflation due to the requirement to do endless farming? Just because the L2 devs put outrageously high prices on items to start and then inflation took over, doesn't make the high prices for things in that game meaningfull. It was simply a game mechanic created to keep people in game grinding longer.
Prices are made by the players in L2. really, the developers completely lost control over the economy. they gave a shot to fix it a long time ago, by increasing the amount of adena a mob dropped, but it didn't fix it at all, insead, items just got more expensive. the price of items never was supposed to be this high, but it still happened.
Lineage 2 really is a game thats for the hardcore crowd.
I made this topic because there was at least 5 or 6 threads saying "carebears ruined my game" or "the good old days of PvP are gone". So I figured that if these guys can rant on about those of us who don't like being ganked, looted and insulted while trying to have fun in a game, that I can make a thread telling my side of the story. This thread was already buried 4 or 5 pages deap and had run it's course until somone decide to revive it.
Believe it or not I'm tired of this topic and wish it would get buried again. As for you hardcore pvp'ers like zaxtor69 (who says he is still playing pre-tammel UO style games but wont tell anyone what it is) good luck on finding the gank-orgy you are seeking, just leave the rest of us alone.
Originally posted by Gameloading Prices are made by the players in L2. really, the developers completely lost control over the economy. they gave a shot to fix it a long time ago, by increasing the amount of adena a mob dropped, but it didn't fix it at all, insead, items just got more expensive. the price of items never was supposed to be this high, but it still happened.
Lineage 2 really is a game thats for the hardcore crowd.
So instead of upping cost to repair those items, or putting in some other kinds of money sinks to take adena out of the game, they just increased the drop-rate of adena. Thats......idiotic. How could they not expect that. OMFG
That game is not for the hardcore, it's for the stupid and the farmers.
Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by Gameloading Prices are made by the players in L2. really, the developers completely lost control over the economy. they gave a shot to fix it a long time ago, by increasing the amount of adena a mob dropped, but it didn't fix it at all, insead, items just got more expensive. the price of items never was supposed to be this high, but it still happened.
Lineage 2 really is a game thats for the hardcore crowd.
So instead of upping cost to repair those items, or putting in some other kinds of money sinks to take adena out of the game, they just increased the drop-rate of adena. Thats......idiotic. How could they not expect that. OMFG
That game is not for the hardcore, it's for the stupid and the farmers.
hey thats cool, you only insulted 1,5 million people by that comment.
It COULD have fixed it, but it was a gamble. Ragnarok Online did the same thing, and it worked out just fine.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Yes that's right, we the "carebears" have defeated the so-called "hardcore pvp'ers".We didn't do it with swords and magic spells, we did it with our money! That's right, we have spoken and we don't like to be ganked and looted by some "1337 kiddie" who thinks he's tough because he's 20 lvls above you and 1 shot kills you while you're afk.We will choose when we want to pvp and when we don't, it is no longer up to you when you can kill us. We control you now and all the games you play, and upcoming games. Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone, I for one say " it's about time". If you are that hard up for pvp go play a FPS that really does take some skill, or Eve that's all point and click and leave us to enjoy our MMOs.
Lol. So you found a place to be safe and not have to worry about other players greifin you? Because it is so much better being verbally harassed by someone and not being able to kick their ass back if you like. If you believe the griefers can't grief you anymore, you live in lala-land. Good luck with that.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore I made this topic because there was at least 5 or 6 threads saying "carebears ruined my game" or "the good old days of PvP are gone". So I figured that if these guys can rant on about those of us who don't like being ganked, looted and insulted while trying to have fun in a game, that I can make a thread telling my side of the story. This thread was already buried 4 or 5 pages deap and had run it's course until somone decide to revive it.
Believe it or not I'm tired of this topic and wish it would get buried again. As for you hardcore pvp'ers like zaxtor69 (who says he is still playing pre-tammel UO style games but wont tell anyone what it is) good luck on finding the gank-orgy you are seeking, just leave the rest of us alone.
As my last comment on this thread, so hopefully it can die like it should. I don't gank in any game, I'm decidedly Anti-PK. If I get attacked or see someone in the area that is a threat I will fight them, otherwise I go about my business. I'm not afraid of getting my character killed in game or taking on opponents that would be considered too difficult for me.
For me open PVP provides for more varied and challenging gameplay as long as the players actions have consequences and the conflicts have some valid purpose in the game (i.e. territory control, resources). I also believe that MMO's are supposed to be social entertainment, and they should encourage people to work together without limiting how or why. The more restrictions built into a game, the more they become single player games with a chatroom built in and that is counter to the whole point of what an MMO is.
Originally posted by BuZZKilgore Developers wont even make a FFA PVP game anymore. Want to know why, because we the "carebears" wont play it and there's not enough "hardcore pvp'ers" to make it a profitable game. The age of the hardcore pvp MMOs is dead and gone,
actually, open pvp is making a come back...
adelion
darkfall
new UO online (not sure on that one though)
any some others ... i just cant remember the titles and im at work so not much time to look... (if csome one can help me out here)
I'm not sure you can call those comebacks as they've been in development for AGES. In fact, several games out now have gone through development and been released for a couple of years in shorter time than those.
Personally, I think it would be nice if there were enough games of different styles that everyone could find something suited to them. I think it's unfortunate that game developers have been scared off good PvP games because they fear low sales figures. Instead of trying to create something that is clever enough to compel all sorts of people to play, they've gone the route of making games that are too similar to each other. How is that ever a good thing?
Originally posted by Signe Personally, I think it would be nice if there were enough games of different styles that everyone could find something suited to them. I think it's unfortunate that game developers have been scared off good PvP games because they fear low sales figures.
Most of the 'hardcore' PVPers will not ever find a game that will suit them, because they won't be happy in a game with just fellow 'hardcore' PVP fans. Any 'hardcore' game made today will be as "ruined" for them as post-Trammel UO because non-loot and/or non-open-PVP games will act like just Trammel, allowing the victims to simply play somewhere else. The 'hardcore' PVPers are only happy if they can make other people unhappy, but the people made unhappy don't have any motivation to play 'hardcore' PVP games.
Instead of trying to create something that is clever enough to compel all sorts of people to play,
You've unintentionally summed up the problem with the 'hardcore' PVP playstyle; no one can actually compel people to play a given MMORPG, unlike pre-Trammel UO where it was pretty much the only game in town. The 'hardcore' PVPers want to kill people and take their stuff (hence the oft-repeated calls for full-loot), other people don't want to accumulate stuff just to have it stolen by some ganker. The 'hardcore' PVP game only appeals to the 'hardcore' PVPers, everyone else will just play another game entirely, which means most of the people who talk about 'hardcore' PVP won't be interested in the game, as they really just want to beat up people who aren't really into PVP and take their stuff.
Cliches and generalizations don't prove anything Pantastic, it only goes to show how shallow your understanding of views that are diferent from yours is. You can have 99% of gaming population on your side but numbers don't make empty phrases real, it just makes them loud.
No one has won anything by the current situation, it would be more truth in saying that everyone lost something.
Originally posted by Signe Personally, I think it would be nice if there were enough games of different styles that everyone could find something suited to them. I think it's unfortunate that game developers have been scared off good PvP games because they fear low sales figures.
Most of the 'hardcore' PVPers will not ever find a game that will suit them, because they won't be happy in a game with just fellow 'hardcore' PVP fans. Any 'hardcore' game made today will be as "ruined" for them as post-Trammel UO because non-loot and/or non-open-PVP games will act like just Trammel, allowing the victims to simply play somewhere else. The 'hardcore' PVPers are only happy if they can make other people unhappy, but the people made unhappy don't have any motivation to play 'hardcore' PVP games.
Instead of trying to create something that is clever enough to compel all sorts of people to play,
You've unintentionally summed up the problem with the 'hardcore' PVP playstyle; no one can actually compel people to play a given MMORPG, unlike pre-Trammel UO where it was pretty much the only game in town. The 'hardcore' PVPers want to kill people and take their stuff (hence the oft-repeated calls for full-loot), other people don't want to accumulate stuff just to have it stolen by some ganker. The 'hardcore' PVP game only appeals to the 'hardcore' PVPers, everyone else will just play another game entirely, which means most of the people who talk about 'hardcore' PVP won't be interested in the game, as they really just want to beat up people who aren't really into PVP and take their stuff.
wow pantastic, your short-sigtness amazes me. on EVE there are a lot of hardcore pvp-ers, and there are a lot of carebears that never go into unsecure space. both of them get along very well, except some stupid players that think that just because they are paying they have the right to have everything handed to them on a silver plate.
the pvp rules on EVE are perfect. there is the trammel zone, where probably nobody will attack you, and if they do they'll be blown by the Police. then there is the Fellucia zone, where most pvp-ers are. what is there to create balance? resources. best resources are on non-secure space.
so, for carebears like you, you have more than 1000 systems to dwell and do your things. but of course, you want everything, and without risk.
but it really doesnt matter what you want, the thing is that your conclusions are very wrong. it is possible to create a game to catter both for carebears and pvp-ers.
Originally posted by SonofSeth ]Cliches and generalizations don't prove anything Pantastic, it only goes to show how shallow your understanding of views that are diferent from yours is.
Yeah, obviously I've got it completely wrong, but somehow all of the super leet hardcore guys can't actually say what's wrong with my understanding. If the 'hardcore' PVPers don't want to kill people and take their stuff, why the obsession with looting? Or are you just going to claim I'm 'generalizing' again and avoid explaining what it is they want?
Originally posted by ssstupido wow pantastic, your short-sigtness amazes me. on EVE... perfect...
Of course! No thread is complete without an EVE fanatic saying that EVE does everything perfectly. Sure, there are some PVEers in EVE... and they have to be willing to put up with some incredibly mind numbing PVE. You can run missions, which involves repeating something like a dozen scenarios over and over, mine which is actually more boring than it sounds, or rat which involves repeating the same challengless fight over and over. Do you really think the PVE in EVE has some broad appeal?
More critically, if EVE is so perfect... why are you arguing with me? Shouldn't you be arguing with the person I was arguing with, or with the OP, and pointing out that there is a PVP game that's just perfect for the 'hardcore' PVPers.
so, for carebears like you, you have more than 1000 systems to dwell and do your things. but of course, you want everything, and without risk.
Here we see the 'hardcore' mentality in full effect, if you don't want a game about killing people and taking their stuff, then you're a "carebear". Apparently wanting to spend more time actually engaging in PVP fights instead of PVE grinding for equipment makes one a carebear in sstupido's mind! Heaven forbid someone want an enjoyable game, you need to risk boredom or you're not 'hardcore' enough of a gamer!
Comments
If loot drops and crafted gear are identical then there is no gear as a factor.
You really seem to have a hard time understanding how different skill-based game mechanics are from level-based.
Then why all the complaining that games don't let you do that? You can make PVP as risky for yourself as you want without any special game mechanics. When you lose a fight, just delete however much stuff you think is appropriate if you lose a fight, and you've just given yourself PVP with all of the risk but without the ability to gank people and take their stuff.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Stevie Ray Vaughan was not exactly 'underground', and Van Halen was full-on for-profit, big-record-label music. I like old VH, but you're just fooling yourself if you think they're less corporate rock than bands today.
Why exactly does pre-Trammel UO make a better game for you? You said you don't like beating people up and taking their stuff, so it shouldn't matter if there's a place for other people to go do stuff in-game where you can't virtually beat them up for their lunch money. Really, post-trammel UO should be even better for you, since it means the reds will have fewer targets, thus providing more opportunities for your low-level character to be beaten and looted, and for you to go get revenge.
In skill based there wouldn't even be that big of a difference to begin with.
Skill-based encourages smart character building, in level based you are not really even building your character, you're just following the dev-planned path to max-level.
I'll say it one more time, please listen. Gear made virtually NO difference in original UO and neither does it in EVE. The slight advantage in damage or anything else is insignificant compared to how well the character is played.
In skill based there wouldn't even be that big of a difference to begin with.
Actually, it IS the diffrence in UO. I don't know which UO you played, but there sure as hell was a big diffrence by someone who played 2 months and someone who played 3 months. also, was the Everquest 2 example supposed to prove your point? saying you need 3 people just to take one person down is not a good example.
Skill-based encourages smart character building, in level based you are not really even building your character, you're just following the dev-planned path to max-level.
I'll say it one more time, please listen. Gear made virtually NO difference in original UO and neither does it in EVE. The slight advantage in damage or anything else is insignificant compared to how well the character is played.
actually, I did listen, but I just consider it bull, because that really isn't what UO was like. maybe you might consider UO "player skill", but those with a reasonable hand-eye coordination won't consider a few clicks "player skill". gear and skill level DID make a diffrence in old UO. it was an mmorpg, not a FPS.
In skill based there wouldn't even be that big of a difference to begin with.
Actually, it IS the diffrence in UO. I don't know which UO you played, but there sure as hell was a big diffrence by someone who played 2 months and someone who played 3 months. also, was the Everquest 2 example supposed to prove your point? saying you need 3 people just to take one person down is not a good example.
I'm sorry but I never had any problems with that at all and I played for the first 2 years the game was live. I never used macro programs or anything to 'cheat' in that game and I did just fine.
Also the EQ2 example was an extreme case of level difference. If the player had known how to use his character well he would have stomped us, easily. Apparently he didn't and he lost. The same day me and a guildie got jumped by a 42, he beat us easily. He was playing his character well and as a result he beat us. No problem in that. I never hesitate to attack players higher level than me in EQ2, why would I? Cause I may die, oh well, who cares. At least I tried and anytime I won it's because I outplayed them, it could easily go the other way next time.
Skill-based encourages smart character building, in level based you are not really even building your character, you're just following the dev-planned path to max-level.
I'll say it one more time, please listen. Gear made virtually NO difference in original UO and neither does it in EVE. The slight advantage in damage or anything else is insignificant compared to how well the character is played.
actually, I did listen, but I just consider it bull, because that really isn't what UO was like. maybe you might consider UO "player skill", but those with a reasonable hand-eye coordination won't consider a few clicks "player skill". gear and skill level DID make a diffrence in old UO. it was an mmorpg, not a FPS.
Whether you consider it bull or not, many people had no problems competing regardless ofwhat equipment they were wearing and what level their skills were at. If you couldn't then that is your problem.
what i really dont get is why if carebears are so happy they won the war against pkers, why are they so fucked up with the mmorpg state. all i see is people whining cause all the games are the same, just grinding and killing mobs.
great, you carebears won. i hope you are having a blast with your stupid wowish games. well, wowish or eq-ish, it really doesnt matter.
Agreed. But also, not everybody is looking for a stream-lined, made only for the masses, easy as hell "World of Warcraft" either.
WTF are you talking about?!??? Again I refer back to my point that you people don't even know what the hell pre-trammel UO and AC Darktide were back in the day. You are talking about UO and saying the guy was 30 levels higher then yourself so it wasn't a fair fight???? A) UO didn't have any levels. It used a skill based system or are you confusing UO with ummm L2 or some gay crap?
Revenge could be attained EASILY in old school UO. It only required using your head and skill to get the advantage. But you wouldn't know about that woulod you? In all your gear based, get the highest level and show off your uber loot PvE games, that's well... pretty much all you know. And it's obvious.
Again, you are so warped with all of your gear based 'loot the mob' stream lined crap games that you fail to realize what great games AC and old school UO really are. You talk bad about them, but you have no knowledge what-so-ever about you speak so loud about! One piece of Lineage 2 equipment is worth more then all my inventory in AC eh? Reallly???? I remember when AC no drop shadow armor was going for over $1,000 real cash on ebay for a set of it! I guess that you mean that one piece of your L2 gear now days is worth about 100 times that much, because back in the day... the inventory for an AC toon could have been extremely valuable if it had been sold on ebay. I only reference ebay because obviously there is no way to compare L2 currency to ACs currency.
But regardless, assuming that your point has merit (which is doesn't).. wtf would that prove anyhow?? Because a games gear is more valuable then old school games, that is somehow a better game?? Ummm no. We all know that the best game is completely variable and it depends on who is playing. My best game is obviously a helluva lot different then yours. And that's fine. But when you newbs come crying or parading that all the new PvE crap is better then the old school mmos, that's where you make a fool of yourself. Especially when you do things as you have done gameloading and tell me that UO had "levels". Don't even tell me that you wasn't talking about UO either because you were. You were reacting to my example of my UO experience and telling me that I couldnt posibly have ever got revenge on a red pk'er becuase they were always like "30 levels higher". Also you speak to me about only playing L2 until I was level 20. That was obviously a helluva lot more time spent in L2 then you ever spent playing pre-Trammel Ultima Online. Because you know nothing about it if you really think players were all 30 levels higher then you. Uh huh. GBTW you uber noob. Tell me wtf "corp por" means without looking it up and you might have a damn clue. Until then, like I say... GBTW and oh yes... STFU about shit you know NOTHING about.
- Zaxx
Stevie Ray Vaughan and Van Halen both did something different then todays mainstream music however. They did something called actually write their own music and they sang to their own guitar and equipment sounds. Todays most popular music by comparison is written by corporate writers who write songs based on what they know will sell best and typically they sing to ultra-computerized, highly synthesized tunes that are played while some schmuck makes a "playing the guitar" motion. There was something called actual skill required to produce the music I prefer, hmmm somewhat similar to the mmos I prefer over todays games like WoW too. How ironic eh?
They changed them to make more money, that's painfully obvious. Yes, I agree that most people don't like challenging games. This is also why most gamers look up cheat codes for almost every damn halfway challenging game that they come across. Most people are too stupid to realize that most of the fun comes in something called "challenge". So therefore, most people are stupid. The majority of people are stupid. Great. I guess that would also explain why so many agree with you. But don't laugh too hard about it while you type in your cheat codes for Oblivion and look for the simplest, easiest mmo possible. You are missing out, trust me. I have played games like WoW. And I have played the old school PvP mmos too. And I know exactly why you hate them. You hate them for the exact same reason that I love them. It's called "challenge". You can call it everything you desire... ganking, grief-fest, whatever. But it all comes down to one word honestly. You hate something called a "challenge". You just can't figure out how to beat something other then mobs who have level indicators so that you know exactly how tough they are compared to yourself. And you go and grind all day long killing "blue" mobs all day long... mindlessly, effortlessly, and thoughtlessly. And you level up. And you amass lots of cool loot. Whoooo. Fun for you. Bore-fest for me. I'd MUCH rather get griefed to death by highly skilled red pkers in Pre-Trammel UO, trust me. I wanna figure out how to beat them. I wanna figure out how to avoid them and skill up to come back and beat guys like them. Any dope can figure out how to whip a computer controlled mob. That gets so old to me after the billionth time or so. Humans however are much more interesting and challenging to me... even if they are "ganking" me. See, I like to do something called "thinking" when I play mmos. I actually "think" and either go to a new spot if I really dont wanna be ganked again or I figure out how to beat the ganker at their own game. I know you wouldn't understand that as you mindlessly tap the same hot key over and over killing your 150 billionth blue mob however.
Enjoy your stream-lined mmos buddy. But don't brag that you are better because there are more stupid games made these days for more stupid people and players. That's kinda like bragging that you beat a game using some "invincible God" cheat code to beat it.
- Zaxx
Agreed. But also, not everybody is looking for a stream-lined, made only for the masses, easy as hell "World of Warcraft" either.
That is not what I said. the point I made is that "those who don't like FFA pvp just don't have a clue" is absolutely Bull
WTF are you talking about?!??? Again I refer back to my point that you people don't even know what the hell pre-trammel UO and AC Darktide were back in the day. You are talking about UO and saying the guy was 30 levels higher then yourself so it wasn't a fair fight???? A) UO didn't have any levels. It used a skill based system or are you confusing UO with ummm L2 or some gay crap?
UO had a skill based system? wow, really, I had NO idea.[/sarcasm]
is it really that hard to figure out that I used the term levels, because most games use levels as character advancement, instead of skills?
Ofcourse I know UO has skills instead of levels. just change levels with skills, its really THAT simple.
yeah, if you get together a few friends, then you can get er.."Revenge". there was hardly any skill in Old school UO. go play old school UO, and then compare it to a FPS like battlefield 2 or Counter strike. THOSE are games that are based on player skill. I can only name one mmo that had a bit of playerskill in pvp, and that was AC:DT, but even there a time played=Huge advantage.
Again, you are so warped with all of your gear based 'loot the mob' stream lined crap games that you fail to realize what great games AC and old school UO really are. You talk bad about them, but you have no knowledge what-so-ever about you speak so loud about! One piece of Lineage 2 equipment is worth more then all my inventory in AC eh? Reallly???? I remember when AC no drop shadow armor was going for over $1,000 real cash on ebay for a set of it! I guess that you mean that one piece of your L2 gear now days is worth about 100 times that much, because back in the day... the inventory for an AC toon could have been extremely valuable if it had been sold on ebay. I only reference ebay because obviously there is no way to compare L2 currency to ACs currency.
wow, you found one item on ebay, lets now base the entire economy on that!
get real. reaching a high level and equiping character with good equipment takes Months of work. it takes weeks to get money just to buy equipment when you reach the mid-game. anybody who played Lineage 2 for a reasonable amount of time would know that, but ah, its such a pity, you only played till level 20.
But regardless, assuming that your point has merit (which is doesn't).. wtf would that prove anyhow?? Because a games gear is more valuable then old school games, that is somehow a better game?? Ummm no.
that comment was based on this lines of text you posed:
You play some BS game like Lineage 2 and think you have a fuggin' clue. You
don't, okay? Almost anyone who played the old school AC Darktide server or
pre-Trammel UO knows what real PvP risk is, how much damn fun it is compared to
this pale, boring BS they stream-line mass produce in the mmo world today.
thats completely Bull, because Lineage 2 has more risk then AC:DT and Ultima Online.
We all know that the best game is completely variable and it depends on who is playing. My best game is obviously a helluva lot different then yours. And that's fine. But when you newbs come crying or parading that all the new PvE crap is better then the old school mmos, that's where you make a fool of yourself.
saying: "those who don't play my game's just don't have a clue", now that really doesn't make you look like a fool
Especially when you do things as you have done gameloading and tell me that UO had "levels". Don't even tell me that you wasn't talking about UO either because you were.
not really. I was talking about levels because I was talking about hardcore pvp mmo's in general. I used level based because thats obviously the way many games use character development. NEVER did I say UO was level based. please read a post first.
You were reacting to my example of my UO experience and telling me that I couldnt posibly have ever got revenge on a red pk'er becuase they were always like "30 levels higher".
My comment about that was based on this lines of text:
I'd much rather get ganked from a high level pk'er, get looted and be back in
town searching thru my bank trying to find that deadly poisoned dagger to go
back and try and get my revenge on that guy that killed me! WooT! Now that's a
blast and gets my blood pumping man!
I high lighted an important part. knock yourself out.
Also you speak to me about only playing L2 until I was level 20. That was obviously a helluva lot more time spent in L2 then you ever spent playing pre-Trammel Ultima Online. Because you know nothing about it if you really think players were all 30 levels higher then you. Uh huh. GBTW you uber noob. Tell me wtf "corp por" means without looking it up and you might have a damn clue. Until then, like I say... GBTW and oh yes... STFU about shit you know NOTHING about.
- Zaxx
wow, keep going mate. I did play UO pre-tram, sorry that I disagree with your er.."view".
now, GBTAC....as long as it lasts.
Prices are made by the players in L2. really, the developers completely lost control over the economy. they gave a shot to fix it a long time ago, by increasing the amount of adena a mob dropped, but it didn't fix it at all, insead, items just got more expensive. the price of items never was supposed to be this high, but it still happened.
Lineage 2 really is a game thats for the hardcore crowd.
This thread was already buried 4 or 5 pages deap and had run it's course until somone decide to revive it.
Believe it or not I'm tired of this topic and wish it would get buried again. As for you hardcore pvp'ers like zaxtor69 (who says he is still playing pre-tammel UO style games but wont tell anyone what it is) good luck on finding the gank-orgy you are seeking, just leave the rest of us alone.
That game is not for the hardcore, it's for the stupid and the farmers.
That game is not for the hardcore, it's for the stupid and the farmers.
hey thats cool, you only insulted 1,5 million people by that comment.
It COULD have fixed it, but it was a gamble. Ragnarok Online did the same thing, and it worked out just fine.
Lol. So you found a place to be safe and not have to worry about other players greifin you? Because it is so much better being verbally harassed by someone and not being able to kick their ass back if you like. If you believe the griefers can't grief you anymore, you live in lala-land. Good luck with that.
For me open PVP provides for more varied and challenging gameplay as long as the players actions have consequences and the conflicts have some valid purpose in the game (i.e. territory control, resources). I also believe that MMO's are supposed to be social entertainment, and they should encourage people to work together without limiting how or why. The more restrictions built into a game, the more they become single player games with a chatroom built in and that is counter to the whole point of what an MMO is.
actually, open pvp is making a come back...
adelion
darkfall
new UO online (not sure on that one though)
any some others ... i just cant remember the titles and im at work so not much time to look... (if csome one can help me out here)
Personally, I think it would be nice if there were enough games of different styles that everyone could find something suited to them. I think it's unfortunate that game developers have been scared off good PvP games because they fear low sales figures. Instead of trying to create something that is clever enough to compel all sorts of people to play, they've gone the route of making games that are too similar to each other. How is that ever a good thing?
You may have won the battle, but the war is long from over!
Haha, I always wanted to say that!
Most of the 'hardcore' PVPers will not ever find a game that will suit them, because they won't be happy in a game with just fellow 'hardcore' PVP fans. Any 'hardcore' game made today will be as "ruined" for them as post-Trammel UO because non-loot and/or non-open-PVP games will act like just Trammel, allowing the victims to simply play somewhere else. The 'hardcore' PVPers are only happy if they can make other people unhappy, but the people made unhappy don't have any motivation to play 'hardcore' PVP games.
You've unintentionally summed up the problem with the 'hardcore' PVP playstyle; no one can actually compel people to play a given MMORPG, unlike pre-Trammel UO where it was pretty much the only game in town. The 'hardcore' PVPers want to kill people and take their stuff (hence the oft-repeated calls for full-loot), other people don't want to accumulate stuff just to have it stolen by some ganker. The 'hardcore' PVP game only appeals to the 'hardcore' PVPers, everyone else will just play another game entirely, which means most of the people who talk about 'hardcore' PVP won't be interested in the game, as they really just want to beat up people who aren't really into PVP and take their stuff.
Cliches and generalizations don't prove anything Pantastic, it only goes to show how shallow your understanding of views that are diferent from yours is. You can have 99% of gaming population on your side but numbers don't make empty phrases real, it just makes them loud.
No one has won anything by the current situation, it would be more truth in saying that everyone lost something.
Most of the 'hardcore' PVPers will not ever find a game that will suit them, because they won't be happy in a game with just fellow 'hardcore' PVP fans. Any 'hardcore' game made today will be as "ruined" for them as post-Trammel UO because non-loot and/or non-open-PVP games will act like just Trammel, allowing the victims to simply play somewhere else. The 'hardcore' PVPers are only happy if they can make other people unhappy, but the people made unhappy don't have any motivation to play 'hardcore' PVP games.
You've unintentionally summed up the problem with the 'hardcore' PVP playstyle; no one can actually compel people to play a given MMORPG, unlike pre-Trammel UO where it was pretty much the only game in town. The 'hardcore' PVPers want to kill people and take their stuff (hence the oft-repeated calls for full-loot), other people don't want to accumulate stuff just to have it stolen by some ganker. The 'hardcore' PVP game only appeals to the 'hardcore' PVPers, everyone else will just play another game entirely, which means most of the people who talk about 'hardcore' PVP won't be interested in the game, as they really just want to beat up people who aren't really into PVP and take their stuff.
wow pantastic, your short-sigtness amazes me. on EVE there are a lot of hardcore pvp-ers, and there are a lot of carebears that never go into unsecure space. both of them get along very well, except some stupid players that think that just because they are paying they have the right to have everything handed to them on a silver plate.
the pvp rules on EVE are perfect. there is the trammel zone, where probably nobody will attack you, and if they do they'll be blown by the Police. then there is the Fellucia zone, where most pvp-ers are. what is there to create balance? resources. best resources are on non-secure space.
so, for carebears like you, you have more than 1000 systems to dwell and do your things. but of course, you want everything, and without risk.
but it really doesnt matter what you want, the thing is that your conclusions are very wrong. it is possible to create a game to catter both for carebears and pvp-ers.
Yeah, obviously I've got it completely wrong, but somehow all of the super leet hardcore guys can't actually say what's wrong with my understanding. If the 'hardcore' PVPers don't want to kill people and take their stuff, why the obsession with looting? Or are you just going to claim I'm 'generalizing' again and avoid explaining what it is they want?
Of course! No thread is complete without an EVE fanatic saying that EVE does everything perfectly. Sure, there are some PVEers in EVE... and they have to be willing to put up with some incredibly mind numbing PVE. You can run missions, which involves repeating something like a dozen scenarios over and over, mine which is actually more boring than it sounds, or rat which involves repeating the same challengless fight over and over. Do you really think the PVE in EVE has some broad appeal?
More critically, if EVE is so perfect... why are you arguing with me? Shouldn't you be arguing with the person I was arguing with, or with the OP, and pointing out that there is a PVP game that's just perfect for the 'hardcore' PVPers.
Here we see the 'hardcore' mentality in full effect, if you don't want a game about killing people and taking their stuff, then you're a "carebear". Apparently wanting to spend more time actually engaging in PVP fights instead of PVE grinding for equipment makes one a carebear in sstupido's mind! Heaven forbid someone want an enjoyable game, you need to risk boredom or you're not 'hardcore' enough of a gamer!