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Homosexuality IS NOT a sin.
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Originally posted by reavo
My religion does not say homosexuality is sinful behavior. Therefore, I do not accept the foundations of your argument.
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Fine, what's the basis of your religion? By what authority does it operate? With no greater authority than man, who is to say that your religion is any better than another man's, one that say, thinks murder is acceptable? I read in an earlier post where you said your religion accepts agnostics. Well on its face, an all inclusive religion sounds very nice, but what happens when diametrically opposed views clash in your religion? They can't both be correct.
Agnostics are welcome in my church as well. If you go to the website you will learn that we don't stop people at the door to question their beliefs. We encourage discussion and the exchange of ideas and philosophies.
So you can talk about your agnostic beliefs here if you'd like. Or if you want to start your own topic about it go ahead. But you're more than welcome to talk about them here. I won't put you down at all for them.
soo, is dissing/nulling everyone else's opinion on this subject what your religion calls "encouraging discussion"? because you aren't painting a very pretty picture of your religion, because what you say you believe doesn't really effect anything
People have diametrically opposed ideas in any religion. Do you think that everyone in the Christian faith believes the same thing? Then why are there Catholics, Protestants, and everything in between? And why do Catholics say that Protestants aren't practicing the correct way to get into heaven, and the other way around?
My religion is based on an individuals unique pursuit of spiritual growth. We believe there is no set path to that growth but a different path that each individual needs to find on their own through observation and self determination.
An agnostic has not denied the existence of God. He has merely put his decision on a wait and see status. There's nothing wrong with that. I understand how someone could come to that conclusion. I mean, look at how many religions there are in the world, and it could overwhelm someone to try and pick one. It could also deter someone when they look and see all the fighting between those religions. And the religions of the world could also deter someone who receives nothing but guilt and condemnation for who they are.
Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson on religion. I like this quote because it pretty much sums up how I look at the ancient religious doctrines. It's from a letter he wrote to his nephew, Peter Carr. He's speaking about "religion"...
"Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object [religion]. In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty and singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears and servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy and Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them. But those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates. For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, etc. But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped, should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, and that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth's motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities?"
Agnostics are welcome in my church as well. If you go to the website you will learn that we don't stop people at the door to question their beliefs. We encourage discussion and the exchange of ideas and philosophies.
So you can talk about your agnostic beliefs here if you'd like. Or if you want to start your own topic about it go ahead. But you're more than welcome to talk about them here. I won't put you down at all for them.
soo, is dissing/nulling everyone else's opinion on this subject what your religion calls "encouraging discussion"? because you aren't painting a very pretty picture of your religion, because what you say you believe doesn't really effect anything
It effects free thought and personal growth. It leads a person to find their own path of spiritual enlightenment without the constraints of guilt and condemnation. That is a very strong and motivating effect on a person. Can you deny that? When you free yourself of another person's authority then you are liberated to begin your own search for the truth. Not guided by someone elses hand on a path that is not your own.
In the past we have had interesting discussions on whether God exists, whether Jesus existed, but I can't recall having a firebrand topic on one particular religion. Still wish this topic was labeled as a specific religious view discussion, not homosexuality
Always nice to have a topic like this as we all await a decent MMORPG on an otherwise boring Sunday afternoon. And yes Reevo, we're all glad you took a shower, didn't want to mention it, but that gym smell was starting to permeate the internet.
@ Reavo
Sounds joyfully liberated and individualistic.
What's your concept of God?
@ Olddaddy
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.bayfield/sheep2.JPG
Every religion is a man made religion. Muhammad was man; God might have given him the IDEA for the religion, but MAN made the religion.
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Agnostics are welcome in my church as well. If you go to the website you will learn that we don't stop people at the door to question their beliefs. We encourage discussion and the exchange of ideas and philosophies.
So you can talk about your agnostic beliefs here if you'd like. Or if you want to start your own topic about it go ahead. But you're more than welcome to talk about them here. I won't put you down at all for them.
Because I'm lazy I'll just ask instead of finding the answer myself.
If your religion is so free and so on, what's the difference between it and agnostiscm? Also, you should know that I've been a mormon for 17 years of my life(not anymore), so I know a lot of the tactics missionaries use. I don't know if you use them or not(you might not even know you're using them). I'd just rather that you didn't because I see thru attempt at advertising religions. That said, I don't know whether you use them or not. You might also be one of the good religious people just looking for a fine discussion without trying to sell me anything.
[quote][i]Originally posted by reavo[/i]
[b]
[i]Originally posted by cornoffcob[/i]
is this a deist religion?
We have some deists in our camp. If you are a deist then you are more than welcome to join us. Thomas Jefferson was a deist, along with many of the founding fathers of American ideals.
Use the website to find a local organization and go there to check us out. What have you got to lose? Ask questions and find out how welcome you are to do that. We love questioning things. [image]http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_bigsmile.gif[/image][/b][/quote]
Though I'm not a deist(I'm an athiest), Deism is the one sort of religion that i concur with. I just can't wrap my head around an omnipotence. What i get from this Universitarian religion is that it is more a place to discuss religious philosophy and such, and I'm greatly interested in philosophy so I might have to check this out.
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
OK Reavo, you asked for it, now repare for the hail of questions.
1- What's your God's name?
2- What did he create?
3- Did he send any prophets?
4- If he did send prophets, what miracles did they do? what what was their names?
5- When was your religion made?
6- What will your God offer me if i worship him?
7- What kind of worship do i have to do to your God?
8- Is there any afterlife in your religion? what's there after death?
9- Do you believe in hell or heaven? if yes what's the purpose of their existance?
10- What are the limites of your religion? the "you can't do stuff"
11- Oh yeah, do you have any revelations from your God? like any texts that are very old like 2000++ years or something?
12- i ran out of questions for now, but hopefull i will ask more later.
Edit: I just wanted to mention, i am ready to leave Islam if i find anything better than Islam, if you were to prove to me that your religon is better than Islam ( which is my Religion ), then i may join you, or consider.
I was just offering my religion up as an example. It's the one that I know the most about, so it's the one I feel most qualified to defend. The topic of freedom from condemnation, guilt, and fear is one that comes up during our discussions at church a lot. We have contemplated it many times so I feel pretty qualified to talk about it too.
As far as my smell, don't I know it. It follows me around. I can't seem to get away from it.
My personal concept of God is one of a great creator. A God that created all men equal in his love for them. And I think that love is an ultimate love that we cannot conceive of anymore than we can conceive of what God looks like or even is. And I believe that love is so strong and undying that the manmade constructs of hell and damnation are just plain silly. I believe that since God is so eternally caring and loving of us points to the fact that those constructs of horror are nothing more than man made.
I believe we were all put here for different reasons. And we were all given an absolutely unique personality. And I believe we should look to that personality God gave us, work with it free from the impositions of others, and be completely respectful of other peoples unique journeys.
Every religion is a man made religion. Muhammad was man; God might have given him the IDEA for the religion, but MAN made the religion.
Agreed!
Just the fact that most religions engage in social engineering shows you that they are not completely interested in the personal spiritual growth of each of God's creations. They are machines of man to control and intimidate.
I believe God wants us to be free. Why else would freedom feel so wonderful? Why else would discovering things on your own and following your own path feel like the most natural thing to do?
LOL!!!
But we talk about Jesus all the time. I think Jesus was awesome. He seems to be one of the greatest spiritual teachers who ever lived.
Have you ever read Jefferson's Bible? It's pretty cool.
Agnostics are welcome in my church as well. If you go to the website you will learn that we don't stop people at the door to question their beliefs. We encourage discussion and the exchange of ideas and philosophies.
So you can talk about your agnostic beliefs here if you'd like. Or if you want to start your own topic about it go ahead. But you're more than welcome to talk about them here. I won't put you down at all for them.
Because I'm lazy I'll just ask instead of finding the answer myself.
If your religion is so free and so on, what's the difference between it and agnostiscm? Also, you should know that I've been a mormon for 17 years of my life(not anymore), so I know a lot of the tactics missionaries use. I don't know if you use them or not(you might not even know you're using them). I'd just rather that you didn't because I see thru attempt at advertising religions. That said, I don't know whether you use them or not. You might also be one of the good religious people just looking for a fine discussion without trying to sell me anything.
To be honest with you, I'm really not that religious at all. I'm very spiritual. But to me once something becomes a "religion" it's bound to a group of men and is on it's way to bad things. Being spiritual sets me on my own path. And I could follow that path without going to my church. So if you are able to do that like I am then I honor that commitment to personal freedom and self discovery. I also like the fact that you see religions for what they really are. At least as they appear to me.
The only reasons I attend my church is because it gives me the freedom to think as myself, it gives me like minded folks who are open to discussion and new ideas, and they do excellent things in my community. I love helping other people out and my church has made a strong commitment to that goal.
Every religion is a man made religion. Muhammad was man; God might have given him the IDEA for the religion, but MAN made the religion.
Agreed!
Just the fact that most religions engage in social engineering shows you that they are not completely interested in the personal spiritual growth of each of God's creations. They are machines of man to control and intimidate.
I believe God wants us to be free. Why else would freedom feel so wonderful? Why else would discovering things on your own and following your own path feel like the most natural thing to do?
if you think so then answer my questions please, and show me the truth.
i see that you have skipped my questions, if it was on purpose, then it shows how weak you are.
if not, then please do answer them.
You're right. I go there because it's a place to move on your own path to enlightenment and not feel the constraints of others trying to manipulate you through fear and intimidation. It's the ultimate in respect to another to give them that freedom instead of forcing them to deny their own path God put them on. Or if you have problems with God, then the path your unique personality has you following.
We have people from all religions and beliefs in our church. And I have learned a lot from all of them.
The one thing about other religions that I have learned as far as complete faith in a religion is to look towards the followers of mysticism in each religion. For some reason every person I've met who follows a path of mysticism in their religion are fucking awesome. I've never met one that believes in imposing themselves on others. But instead working on themselves and leading by example. That is so cool.
You're asking me questions that don't pertain to my beliefs. First off, I don't believe in magic, such as prophets or miracles. I believe in the natural laws. The ones that God created and gave to us to learn from and to grow by observing. I have never seen a man perform a "miracle". I have never seen a man perform "magic". I have seen people try to deceive others by creating an illusion of such things. But that's just a form of manipulation.
Second, go back and look at the questions you have asked of me. And then I ask you this question, is it not plain for you to see that the questions you ask come from a religion setup as a means of social engineering? I don't desire to be manipulated by another persons authoritative measures. I want nothing more than to be free to look around and learn from what God has shown me. Not what others have told me see. That poisons the mind and spirit and set them on a path of subordination, guilt, fear, and being enslaved by another. Do you really think a loving creator would want you to lead a life like that?
BTW, there are some Muslims that go to my church. They are Sufi's. We're a group of people that believe in taking from other religions if you see something that helps you on your journey. I'm not putting down 100% of religions. Just the parts that force people into belief through intimidation and denying personal freedoms.
What about free to maim and murder and kill and torture and inflict pain and poke out eyeballs and skewer gonads? To bugger little children and bury kittens alive.
Do you believe in no social controls at all?
I'm not especially into religion for the spirituality, I appreciate it for it's integrity to society. It's wisdoms and it's teachings of how man can live together better in harmony. The structure, order and precepts which give us a recognised and developed structure within which to interact without hurting another.
In short a public morality. I don't want random spiritual growth, I want specific spiritual growth. Minds controlled evil intimidated.
Why else would freedom feel so wonderful? Why else would discovering things on your own and following your own path feel like the most natural thing to do?
No one to tell you when you are wrong.
You're asking me questions that don't pertain to my beliefs. First off, I don't believe in magic, such as prophets or miracles. I believe in the natural laws. The ones that God created and gave to us to learn from and to grow by observing. I have never seen a man perform a "miracle". I have never seen a man perform "magic". I have seen people try to deceive others by creating an illusion of such things. But that's just a form of manipulation.
Miracles are something given to prophets by God, Magic is a trick done with the Djinns, there's a big difference, Magic is forbidden, a Miracle is not an illusion, Magic is, now i see you are mixing up things.
Second, go back and look at the questions you have asked of me. And then I ask you this question, is it not plain for you to see that the questions you ask come from a religion setup as a means of social engineering? I don't desire to be manipulated by another persons authoritative measures. I want nothing more than to be free to look around and learn from what God has shown me. Not what others have told me see. That poisons the mind and spirit and set them on a path of subordination, guilt, fear, and being enslaved by another. Do you really think a loving creator would want you to lead a life like that?
So you have no answers to me questions, how do you want me to join your religion if you have no answer to any of my questions? in this case, Islam is better than your religion, because Islam has all of the answers to all of my questions i wrote.
BTW, there are some Muslims that go to my church. They are Sufi's. We're a group of people that believe in taking from other religions if you see something that helps you on your journey. I'm not putting down 100% of religions. Just the parts that force people into belief through intimidation and denying personal freedoms.
Ahh, Sufis, well too bad for you, Sufis are not considered Muslims by the entire Muslim nation except themselves, Their beliefs and ways of life and worship has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, I am so sorry to tell you, but those Sufis are not Muslims, they might claim to be, but they are not, and they represent Islam in nothing.
As of WHY would i want someone to tell me what to do, i've got a logical answer for that question.
God created us right? right, ok.
Man created the computer right? right, ok.
When man demands something from a computer, calculate this, and the computer does something else, or doesn't do what man told it to do, what will the man do?
1- Reprogram it.
2- Trash it...and create another computer.
3- Repeat.
God created us, and he demands worshipping him from us, simple? yes simple, of course you have absolutely no idea what is the meaning of worship in Islam, unless you want to know, i'm not ready to waste my finger strength on explaining it.
So if God see us, mankind, not worshipping him, he sends prophets to:
1- Reprogram us.
2- Set us stright to the path he chose for us to take to be saved.
But mankind does this:
1- Deny.
2- Kill prophets.
So what does God do then?
1- Trash us, by erupting Vulcanos, Cyclons and earthquakes.
2- Replace us with people better than us.
But we mankind love to:
1- Repeat our mistakes bt forgetting who our God realy is.
2- Make statues which will make us forget.
3- Paint pictures of prophets and then with time next generations will worship them instead of God.
So God does:
1- Repeat 1 and 2, which is, trash, replace.
Very Logical? i can't get any more logical than this.
So you said it yourself, you believe in a powerful creator, what on earth does that powerful creator want from you? please tell me i demand an answer.
You're asking me questions that don't pertain to my beliefs. First off, I don't believe in magic, such as prophets or miracles. I believe in the natural laws. The ones that God created and gave to us to learn from and to grow by observing. I have never seen a man perform a "miracle". I have never seen a man perform "magic". I have seen people try to deceive others by creating an illusion of such things. But that's just a form of manipulation.
Miracles are something given to prophets by God, Magic is a trick done with the Djinns, there's a big difference, Magic is forbidden, a Miracle is not an illusion, Magic is, now i see you are mixing up things.
Second, go back and look at the questions you have asked of me. And then I ask you this question, is it not plain for you to see that the questions you ask come from a religion setup as a means of social engineering? I don't desire to be manipulated by another persons authoritative measures. I want nothing more than to be free to look around and learn from what God has shown me. Not what others have told me see. That poisons the mind and spirit and set them on a path of subordination, guilt, fear, and being enslaved by another. Do you really think a loving creator would want you to lead a life like that?
So you have no answers to me questions, how do you want me to join your religion if you have no answer to any of my questions? in this case, Islam is better than your religion, because Islam has all of the answers to all of my questions i wrote.
BTW, there are some Muslims that go to my church. They are Sufi's. We're a group of people that believe in taking from other religions if you see something that helps you on your journey. I'm not putting down 100% of religions. Just the parts that force people into belief through intimidation and denying personal freedoms.
Ahh, Sufis, well too bad for you, Sufis are not considered Muslims by the entire Muslim nation except themselves, Their beliefs and ways of life and worship has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, I am so sorry to tell you, but those Sufis are not Muslims, they might claim to be, but they are not, and they represent Islam in nothing.
As of WHY would i want someone to tell me what to do, i've got a logical answer for that question.
God created us right? right, ok.
Man created the computer right? right, ok.
When man demands something from a computer, calculate this, and the computer does something else, or doesn't do what man told it to do, what will the man do?
1- Reprogram it.
2- Trash it...and create another computer.
3- Repeat.
God created us, and he demands worshipping him from us, simple? yes simple, of course you have absolutely no idea what is the meaning of worship in Islam, unless you want to know, i'm not ready to waste my finger strength on explaining it.
So if God see us, mankind, not worshipping him, he sends prophets to:
1- Reprogram us.
2- Set us stright to the path he chose for us to take to be saved.
But mankind does this:
1- Deny.
2- Kill prophets.
So what does God do then?
1- Trash us, by erupting Vulcanos, Cyclons and earthquakes.
2- Replace us with people better than us.
But we mankind love to:
1- Repeat our mistakes bt forgetting who our God realy is.
2- Make statues which will make us forget.
3- Paint pictures of prophets and then with time next generations will worship them instead of God.
So God does:
1- Repeat 1 and 2, which is, trash, replace.
Very Logical? i can't get any more logical than this.
So you said it yourself, you believe in a powerful creator, what on earth does that powerful creator want from you? please tell me i demand an answer.
You have no sence of science or logic. Your elitist attitude makes me sick. What sect of muslim are you? Because you give them a bad name.