Originally posted by iluvVG I said WoW is a cartoon run by young people, and people who have never played an MMO before. This is not bashing, just not what I'm looking for in a game. EQ, UO, and DAoC were FANTASTIC games, I merely said their time has passed. I'll admit the Warhammer clone statement was a bit of a stretch, but if you put the two side by side, it would be tough to tell the two apart. Sadly, all the 14 yr olds who are sick of WoW by now are all drooling over WAR due to their similarities and over-hype, and my guess is most of WARs community will be made of up these type of players. I just feel like the market that WAR is targeting is not the same market I want to be playing with. So have fun babysitting!
Interesting, In all the time I played WoW, I ran into, at best, a handfull of people under age 18. Of the three guilds I was in, on two different servers, I'd say the median age was in the 30's.
During my time in beta in Vanguard, as well as after release, I could see no discernible difference between the overall community of the two games. In chat, or on the various forums. WAR will be no different.
Feel free to check this thread if you feel like questioning the median age of gamers in general.
I said WoW is a cartoon run by young people, and people who have never played an MMO before. This is not bashing, just not what I'm looking for in a game. EQ, UO, and DAoC were FANTASTIC games, I merely said their time has passed. I'll admit the Warhammer clone statement was a bit of a stretch, but if you put the two side by side, it would be tough to tell the two apart. Sadly, all the 14 yr olds who are sick of WoW by now are all drooling over WAR due to their similarities and over-hype, and my guess is most of WARs community will be made of up these type of players. I just feel like the market that WAR is targeting is not the same market I want to be playing with. So have fun babysitting!
Interesting, In all the time I played WoW, I ran into, at best, a handfull of people under age 18. Of the three guilds I was in, on two different servers, I'd say the median age was in the 30's.
During my time in beta in Vanguard, as well as after release, I could see no discernible difference between the overall community of the two games. In chat, or on the various forums. WAR will be no different.
Feel free to check this thread if you feel like questioning the median age of gamers in general.
I see your point here Coldmeat. Its really the same point that makes arguing about MMO's so redundant.
A players experience in an MMO is purely situational. Everybody's experience is different, and everyone runs into different people. Its all affected by your server, the time of day you play the most, and all sorts of other lurking variables that change the way you see the game.
I do not doubt for a second that some of the most elite MMO players play WoW. After all it has 8 million+ subscribers. However, this also means that the majority of them will be first time MMOers. Before WoW, I'm not sure there was even 8 million that played MMO's at all. WoW showed all the non MMO players that even THEY could belong in an MMO type setting.
But lets not turn this into a bash WoW thread...it deserves all the credit it gets, and us MMO lovers have a lot to thank WoW for.
Also, besides the fact that the OP was obviously fairly young, I feel many of the posters here are somewhat older than the average MMO player. Dont use the forum base here to estimate the average age of MMO players, especially on WoW, becasue it really cant be considered an accurate guess.
The real deal is many current Vanguard players are trying to convince others this game is good. The problem is they're also trying to convince themselves the same thing and that they are in fact having fun. C'mon, guys, this is so transparent. Trying to convince yourself that you're having one hell of a time playing this scrap heap is one thing and you might get away with it being it's yourself but now you're trying to also convince others? Like the old adage, "Misery loves company". So true.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
You have to grind in every MMO.
I played L2 for the better part of 2 years, and still do off and on. The two games are NOTHING alike. L2's quests are designed to help you earn money, not get XP, although there are a few that do give some XP.
You grind no more, or less, in VG then you do in ANY MMO. And it is not even remotely close to the way you gotta grind in L2. I guess you never figurd out that you're not supposed to xp grind in L2, that is unless you buy adena to afford your gear.
I've noticed that people that dislike VG try to use the L2 grind as an example of why it's a bad game. Why? Because L2 has a bad rep for being a very slow game. It took a almost a year for a player to reach max level on the Deviane server I believe. You can hit 50 in VG in a couple months; faster if you want.
I was wondering. You've been posting here for quite some time Abraxos. How long did you play for?
No, you do not need to grind in ANY mmo as you say. Guild Wars has absolutely no grind, meaning Vanguard has more than it does.
Did you play the PvE part? I did, to lvl 11. You do quests, over, and over, and over. That's called grinding.
And guild wars isn't an MMORPG. It's online co-op. Not the same. Guildwars 2 will be an MMORPG.
And no GW doesn't have more. It has much less.
Edit. Oh, before you could buy everything you need for GW, in order to unlock all the abilities and gear you had to do the PvE part of the game. That in itself is a grind. See, lots of grinding in GW, and still every MMO has a grind.
The real deal is many current Vanguard players are trying to convince others this game is good. The problem is they're also trying to convince themselves the same thing and that they are in fact having fun. C'mon, guys, this is so transparent. Trying to convince yourself that you're having one hell of a time playing this scrap heap is one thing and you might get away with it being it's yourself but now you're trying to also convince others? Like the old adage, "Misery loves company". So true.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
What exactly are you trying to say here? All western MMO's are just a grindfest masked by lore and good graphics?
This is where many of our differences may lie. Some of you may play MMO's for this reason. If its pretty and the story behind it gives me reason to grind, then I dont mind grinding. Personally, I HATE grinding, and no amount of lore or "polish" can make it any better. I dont like grinding in VG any more than I liked grinding in L2.
I really cant comment on VG as a PvE game. I play on an FFA PVP server. This is the only way I think I could have fun on VG, or any MMO for that matter. If PvP is not an element of a MMO, I dont play it. If I am interested in a story line, why play a non linear game? For a good story I would go back to Suikoden on Playstation, or hell, read a book. The point is, if you dont grind, you dont get better, and in an extremely competitive MMO PVP environment, getting better is a must. I truly respect the fact that VG gives us this FFA PvP option, because not many MMO's do. If you find VG boring, come on over to the Tharridon server and let me show you how to have some fun.
That's exactly what I'm saying. All MMORPGs (not just Western) are grindfests. The good ones are the ones that make you feel like it's not a grind. Good questing, good lore, good graphics, and interesting combat and classes make people not realize it is grind. Possibly it isn't grind anymore if you don't realize it is grind?
Lord of the Rings lets you see Gandalf occasionally while your killing 10 rabbits for a Dwarven stew and has the quest giver tell you about the history of said stew as well. If you're a Tolkien fan and remember the index that he mentioned Dwarven culinary delights, then you forget or overlook that you are killing 10 rabbits to move the XP bar.
I'm not putting down LoTRs because I am playing it now and enjoying it but if you look deep you can see the same PVE as other games. It's just well written with smooth transitions.
Vanguard's problem from a PvE perspective was it didn't have any soul to it. Very little lore, very little flash or polish, and then once you throw in the bugs and lack of content and it was very easy to see that "grind".
From a PvP perspective, I can see where Vanguard might work better. If you don't care about the story and are just making your own entertainment based on how many people you can kill then VG is as good as most others I would imagine?
How much do you pity me? Is it a deep sympathy, or just a passing fancy?
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Thank you all for your lovely opinions regarding my post. Mostly just the people with the serious posts. You especially boojiboy. Your help really said everything I wanted to say in three sentences.
Daedelus: I didnt mean to claim that VG was perfect, I was merely saying that it has laid a strong foundation to build upon. Surely VG has its issues, like every MMO. Despite VG's sorry release, it still has a expansive framework to work with. As for the SOE comment, they were the reason for VG's sorry release. I am aware that they had no part in development, but if they left the scheduling up to Sigil, perhaps Brad would have had the chance to make the game everything we were promised.
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
The real deal is many current Vanguard players are trying to convince others this game is good. The problem is they're also trying to convince themselves the same thing and that they are in fact having fun. C'mon, guys, this is so transparent. Trying to convince yourself that you're having one hell of a time playing this scrap heap is one thing and you might get away with it being it's yourself but now you're trying to also convince others? Like the old adage, "Misery loves company". So true.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
What exactly are you trying to say here? All western MMO's are just a grindfest masked by lore and good graphics?
This is where many of our differences may lie. Some of you may play MMO's for this reason. If its pretty and the story behind it gives me reason to grind, then I dont mind grinding. Personally, I HATE grinding, and no amount of lore or "polish" can make it any better. I dont like grinding in VG any more than I liked grinding in L2.
I really cant comment on VG as a PvE game. I play on an FFA PVP server. This is the only way I think I could have fun on VG, or any MMO for that matter. If PvP is not an element of a MMO, I dont play it. If I am interested in a story line, why play a non linear game? For a good story I would go back to Suikoden on Playstation, or hell, read a book. The point is, if you dont grind, you dont get better, and in an extremely competitive MMO PVP environment, getting better is a must. I truly respect the fact that VG gives us this FFA PvP option, because not many MMO's do. If you find VG boring, come on over to the Tharridon server and let me show you how to have some fun.
That's exactly what I'm saying. All MMORPGs (not just Western) are grindfests. The good ones are the ones that make you feel like it's not a grind. Good questing, good lore, good graphics, and interesting combat and classes make people not realize it is grind. Possibly it isn't grind anymore if you don't realize it is grind?
Lord of the Rings lets you see Gandalf occasionally while your killing 10 rabbits for a Dwarven stew and has the quest giver tell you about the history of said stew as well. If you're a Tolkien fan and remember the index that he mentioned Dwarven culinary delights, then you forget or overlook that you are killing 10 rabbits to move the XP bar.
I'm not putting down LoTRs because I am playing it now and enjoying it but if you look deep you can see the same PVE as other games. It's just well written with smooth transitions.
Vanguard's problem from a PvE perspective was it didn't have any soul to it. Very little lore, very little flash or polish, and then once you throw in the bugs and lack of content and it was very easy to see that "grind".
From a PvP perspective, I can see where Vanguard might work better. If you don't care about the story and are just making your own entertainment based on how many people you can kill then VG is as good as most others I would imagine?
Ahh Abraxos, now we are finally starting to get somewhere in this thread! Finally the bashing subsides, and the true colors of the MMO players bleeds through. I knew all you trolls had souls after all.
The point here is this: everyone here plays MMO's for a different reason. For some, VG satisfied this reason, for others it does not. So, what are you looking for in YOUR perfect MMO. Personally, I am looking for a player created envrionment of relationships and reputation. A place where my name is known -- respected by some, and feared by others. I am also looking for graphics that make me forget I am playing a video game. I care less about bugs and performance than most, and this is why VG satisfies me. From a PvP perspective VG is a good game. I can see how PvE may piss some people off, and while VG didnt even mean to become a PvP game, I think it mistakenly will (and should) move in that direction. The infamy system works, and others on the PvP servers are generally happy with the PvP.
Since VG did nothing, I agree, to build up a story line and motivation for players to be the ultimate PvE character, why should you want to waste your time in this area? I do not blame you at all for playing LOTR if you are a lore type of dude, but thats just not me, and frankly even if my character was supposed to love to eat rabbits, I would still enjoy killing the guy I was competing with the rabbits for than pretending I loved to eat them.
Others however have different priorities. Abraxos for example wants lore and environmental interaction/reality. He wants to kill those rabbits for a reason that is motivational to his character. Again, I could grind mindlessly for days, not for this, but so I can get revenge on that evil SOB that bind camped me over and over three days ago...
If you find yourself feeling lost and empty as a Vanguard subscriber...come on over to Tharridon, and I would be happy to show why I am VG's biggest "Vanboi".
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things. If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times. SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO. I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
Hehe, I agree with the end result of what you said but my 2 cents worth. If it had been left to Brad, he would still be finding ways to make the ranger class gods.
Thank you all for your lovely opinions regarding my post. Mostly just the people with the serious posts. You especially boojiboy. Your help really said everything I wanted to say in three sentences.
Daedelus: I didnt mean to claim that VG was perfect, I was merely saying that it has laid a strong foundation to build upon. Surely VG has its issues, like every MMO. Despite VG's sorry release, it still has a expansive framework to work with. As for the SOE comment, they were the reason for VG's sorry release. I am aware that they had no part in development, but if they left the scheduling up to Sigil, perhaps Brad would have had the chance to make the game everything we were promised.
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
Boy, you sure seem to know a lot about stuff that never happened...
You are probably the worst writer I have ever seen (Not scene) that was trying to both be serious and sound holier-than-thou. You are an idiot, and lose all credibility by virtue of being so stupid.
Well at least you've risen above that kind of behavior...
You should go tell your friends how you "pwned" him on "teh interwebz". They will surely be impressed by this.
The real deal is many current Vanguard players are trying to convince others this game is good. The problem is they're also trying to convince themselves the same thing and that they are in fact having fun. C'mon, guys, this is so transparent. Trying to convince yourself that you're having one hell of a time playing this scrap heap is one thing and you might get away with it being it's yourself but now you're trying to also convince others? Like the old adage, "Misery loves company". So true.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
You have to grind in every MMO.
I played L2 for the better part of 2 years, and still do off and on. The two games are NOTHING alike. L2's quests are designed to help you earn money, not get XP, although there are a few that do give some XP.
You grind no more, or less, in VG then you do in ANY MMO. And it is not even remotely close to the way you gotta grind in L2. I guess you never figurd out that you're not supposed to xp grind in L2, that is unless you buy adena to afford your gear.
I've noticed that people that dislike VG try to use the L2 grind as an example of why it's a bad game. Why? Because L2 has a bad rep for being a very slow game. It took a almost a year for a player to reach max level on the Deviane server I believe. You can hit 50 in VG in a couple months; faster if you want.
I was wondering. You've been posting here for quite some time Abraxos. How long did you play for?
I didn't play Lineage II very long because early on it began to feel like grind. I can't say personally that Lineage was a longer grind than Vanguard but I can say that both felt like a grind. I had to personally log in and force myself to kill mobs because neither grabbed me and pulled me in. In EQI , VG and in Lineage II, I mainly killed mobs for XP. That's what you did. VG had more quests than either of the other two games but I couldn't tell you anything about my Orc in VG or my Ogre in Lineage but I could tell you alot about my Dark Elf in EQ. (Homeland, religion, history, racial personality etc).
I'm just saying you can level to max in a week but it can feel like a grind if the content lacks something. You can also grind out for two years to hit max and never even think about it or watch your bar if the world feels alive. Again, this is more of a PvE perspective than a PvP perspective.
I stopped reading right there. Because you sir, are officially an idiot by saying this.
First of the LOOOOONG List about what is wrong with that single sentence...
Warhammer, as such, is an IP made by Games Workshop. Warhammer features many many Games until now, both PC Games, Tabletop Games, and Pen and Paper games.
What you probably meant, but failed to properly write down is Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (WAR in short), the first Warhammer Fantasy MMORPG (that will be completed...).
Even ignoring this blatant ignorance, there is SO MUCH wrong with your Sentence.
It's like saying: "Risk is a Clone of a World Map, plain and simple", because it looks roughly equal.
WoW was a Game planned as PURE PvE Game. In very early Development stages, the Horde wasn't planned to be Playable, it was Alliance only.
WoW's PvP is tacked on the PvE part. WAR is planned with PvP and RvR Focus in Mind from Second one. But well, you can all read this on the official Webpage of Warhammer Online, if you are able to understand simple english sentences that is...
Maybe spend more than 20 Seconds looking into a game before degrading it to a "Clone of something else"?
I won't rant on about the OBVIOUS differences between WoW's and WAR's gameplay differences, but one last thing has to be said (again...):
The Warcraft IP was a carbon copy of Parts of the Warhammer IP. While both IPs then evolved into two different IPs, the General Look of the World, the Units and all is still mostly the same, with Warhammer being the Original.
So, if anything, WoW is a Copy of Warhammer. And Warhammer Online is just using the Original IP instead of some Carbon Copy.
Wow, that's a loooooong rant about a single sentence. Guess it would take ages to point out everything that is wrong in your post (that I won't bother to read).
Originally posted by CaleSentari Originally posted by Leodious You are probably the worst writer I have ever seen (Not scene) that was trying to both be serious and sound holier-than-thou. You are an idiot, and lose all credibility by virtue of being so stupid.
Well at least you've risen above that kind of behavior... You should go tell your friends how you "pwned" him on "teh interwebz". They will surely be impressed by this.
Cute, but I was talking about his writing. You can't act like you are better than someone and be so pompous if you write like a fool or a child. I was rude, but I meant to be. I, however, did not say things like "OK champ" and try to show of my knowledge while demonstrating that I knew nothing. He did. I respond to people on forums in kind. You don't strike me as a bad person, but you didn't do anything more than respond to my rudeness. That, however, is not your place. But then, it wasn't really my place to be rude to him.
As for him, I said that largely because he bashed Vanguard so much. I have not played it, nor have I any reason to (unless someone tells me you can do barrel rolls on dragons, then I might) but the beauty of having so many different games is that we all have the choice to chose what we want.
The OP might have gone a little far by saying that WAR was a WoW clone, but the way people responded to him show their own arrogance and ignorance. There was no reason for them to "flame" (I hate using that word, but it fits here.) him for saying that, especially if he (as I suspect is the case) is a younger gamer. He would be unfamilliar with Warhammer, and to be honest, if you look at screenshots, the interface and the art style of the graphics are strikingly similar. Ann now some comedy! http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10
Nothing else he said really struck me as bashing the games, and seemed like an honest assesment of those games. It is a serious problem when someone cannot say anything negative about a game without it being considered bashing, especially when that person also hit on the negative things about Vanguard. All games have negative points and positive points.
People like you, and everyone else who is flaming the poor OP, need to grow up and learn to discuss things contructively. Until you can do that, I will be as rude to you as you are to others.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by Elgareth Originally posted by iluvVG Warhammer is a WoW clone, plain and simple.
I stopped reading right there. Because you sir, are officially an idiot by saying this.
First of the LOOOOONG List about what is wrong with that single sentence... Warhammer, as such, is an IP made by Games Workshop. Warhammer features many many Games until now, both PC Games, Tabletop Games, and Pen and Paper games. What you probably meant, but failed to properly write down is Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (WAR in short), the first Warhammer Fantasy MMORPG (that will be completed...).
Even ignoring this blatant ignorance, there is SO MUCH wrong with your Sentence. It's like saying: "Risk is a Clone of a World Map, plain and simple", because it looks roughly equal. WoW was a Game planned as PURE PvE Game. In very early Development stages, the Horde wasn't planned to be Playable, it was Alliance only. WoW's PvP is tacked on the PvE part. WAR is planned with PvP and RvR Focus in Mind from Second one. But well, you can all read this on the official Webpage of Warhammer Online, if you are able to understand simple english sentences that is... Maybe spend more than 20 Seconds looking into a game before degrading it to a "Clone of something else"?
I won't rant on about the OBVIOUS differences between WoW's and WAR's gameplay differences, but one last thing has to be said (again...): The Warcraft IP was a carbon copy of Parts of the Warhammer IP. While both IPs then evolved into two different IPs, the General Look of the World, the Units and all is still mostly the same, with Warhammer being the Original. So, if anything, WoW is a Copy of Warhammer. And Warhammer Online is just using the Original IP instead of some Carbon Copy.
Wow, that's a loooooong rant about a single sentence. Guess it would take ages to point out everything that is wrong in your post (that I won't bother to read).
Again, don't be such a rude person to this guy; this sentence has been bashed enough. The two PC games are very similar, despite having a different focus and different classes and such. Something I have seen is that most people say "clone" and mean "derived from," just as people say this or that is an EQ clone. Most MMOs do take a great deal from EQs world and basic gameplay.
And at any rate, they are both derived from Tolkien.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Just as Tolkien is hardly original with his own ideas. He came up with the elven language, then got his ideas from the myths around him, not the least of which is the British fae, with the elven courts, dwarves and goblins, etc. It is hardly surprising in such a saturated field that everything is derivative of something before it. Man has always had fantasies to sustain him through the ages.
The real deal is many current Vanguard players are trying to convince others this game is good. The problem is they're also trying to convince themselves the same thing and that they are in fact having fun. C'mon, guys, this is so transparent. Trying to convince yourself that you're having one hell of a time playing this scrap heap is one thing and you might get away with it being it's yourself but now you're trying to also convince others? Like the old adage, "Misery loves company". So true.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
You have to grind in every MMO.
I played L2 for the better part of 2 years, and still do off and on. The two games are NOTHING alike. L2's quests are designed to help you earn money, not get XP, although there are a few that do give some XP.
You grind no more, or less, in VG then you do in ANY MMO. And it is not even remotely close to the way you gotta grind in L2. I guess you never figurd out that you're not supposed to xp grind in L2, that is unless you buy adena to afford your gear.
I've noticed that people that dislike VG try to use the L2 grind as an example of why it's a bad game. Why? Because L2 has a bad rep for being a very slow game. It took a almost a year for a player to reach max level on the Deviane server I believe. You can hit 50 in VG in a couple months; faster if you want.
I was wondering. You've been posting here for quite some time Abraxos. How long did you play for?
I didn't play Lineage II very long because early on it began to feel like grind. I can't say personally that Lineage was a longer grind than Vanguard but I can say that both felt like a grind. I had to personally log in and force myself to kill mobs because neither grabbed me and pulled me in. In EQI , VG and in Lineage II, I mainly killed mobs for XP. That's what you did. VG had more quests than either of the other two games but I couldn't tell you anything about my Orc in VG or my Ogre in Lineage but I could tell you alot about my Dark Elf in EQ. (Homeland, religion, history, racial personality etc).
I'm just saying you can level to max in a week but it can feel like a grind if the content lacks something. You can also grind out for two years to hit max and never even think about it or watch your bar if the world feels alive. Again, this is more of a PvE perspective than a PvP perspective.
See, I like MMO's that just sorta dump you in the world. L2 and VG are like that.
If you can't get into the game, then you won't like the grind that game has to offer.
EQ2 is fun, and the grind isn't so bad in it. The quest grinding really gets to me though. levelled several characters to thier low 20's, but could never really get into the world. I would put VG's leveling at about par with EQ2. I think that Sigil struck a nice balance between mob grinding, and Quest grinding as well.
VG and L2 are the only MMO's I've played were the world feels open. Completely dif. grind style though.
No, you do not need to grind in ANY mmo as you say. Guild Wars has absolutely no grind, meaning Vanguard has more than it does.
Did you play the PvE part? I did, to lvl 11. You do quests, over, and over, and over. That's called grinding.
And guild wars isn't an MMORPG. It's online co-op. Not the same. Guildwars 2 will be an MMORPG.
And no GW doesn't have more. It has much less.
Edit. Oh, before you could buy everything you need for GW, in order to unlock all the abilities and gear you had to do the PvE part of the game. That in itself is a grind. See, lots of grinding in GW, and still every MMO has a grind.
um, i put up a few buy and sell orders and i have tens of millions of isks in a day's time in eve online.
where's my grind?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
No, you do not need to grind in ANY mmo as you say. Guild Wars has absolutely no grind, meaning Vanguard has more than it does.
Did you play the PvE part? I did, to lvl 11. You do quests, over, and over, and over. That's called grinding.
And guild wars isn't an MMORPG. It's online co-op. Not the same. Guildwars 2 will be an MMORPG.
And no GW doesn't have more. It has much less.
Edit. Oh, before you could buy everything you need for GW, in order to unlock all the abilities and gear you had to do the PvE part of the game. That in itself is a grind. See, lots of grinding in GW, and still every MMO has a grind.
um, i put up a few buy and sell orders and i have tens of millions of isks in a day's time in eve online.
where's my grind?
How did you start out? Did you do some of the curioure quests? Did you do some of the hunting quests? Did you start off harvesting asteroids?
You did something, because you know as well as I do that your statement is very misleading. You play the market?
Quest grinding
Harvet grinding
Econmics grinding. Oh yeah, the economy can be a grind game as well. Buying and selling to stay on tops requires you to stay on top of the market.
Are you training skills? You may not have to do anything but wait for the skill to finish, but waiting can be a grind as well. You don't neccesarilly have to be doing something, even the act of doing nothing can turn into a grind if you have to do it repetively.
Still not an MMO without a grind. It's the backbone of the genre. Time sinks. All a grind is, a time sink.
I said WoW is a cartoon run by young people, and people who have never played an MMO before. This is not bashing, just not what I'm looking for in a game. EQ, UO, and DAoC were FANTASTIC games, I merely said their time has passed. I'll admit the Warhammer clone statement was a bit of a stretch, but if you put the two side by side, it would be tough to tell the two apart. Sadly, all the 14 yr olds who are sick of WoW by now are all drooling over WAR due to their similarities and over-hype, and my guess is most of WARs community will be made of up these type of players. I just feel like the market that WAR is targeting is not the same market I want to be playing with. So have fun babysitting!
Interesting, In all the time I played WoW, I ran into, at best, a handfull of people under age 18. Of the three guilds I was in, on two different servers, I'd say the median age was in the 30's.
During my time in beta in Vanguard, as well as after release, I could see no discernible difference between the overall community of the two games. In chat, or on the various forums. WAR will be no different.
Feel free to check this thread if you feel like questioning the median age of gamers in general.
just to caveat on this thought ...
if you, the reader of this post, have ever played more than ONE mmo, then you are proving my point before i even state it. remember that, because it's truth.
no matter the mmo - you're playing with the same group of people.
if you feel a certain mmo has a more mature group, odds are, it's the people in THAT guild/clan or that zone/level range that you're at.
prove me wrong. how many people reading this have only ever playing one MMO-type game?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Thank you all for your lovely opinions regarding my post. Mostly just the people with the serious posts. You especially boojiboy. Your help really said everything I wanted to say in three sentences.
Daedelus: I didnt mean to claim that VG was perfect, I was merely saying that it has laid a strong foundation to build upon. Surely VG has its issues, like every MMO. Despite VG's sorry release, it still has a expansive framework to work with. As for the SOE comment, they were the reason for VG's sorry release. I am aware that they had no part in development, but if they left the scheduling up to Sigil, perhaps Brad would have had the chance to make the game everything we were promised.
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
so, what you're saying is that SOE took over funding the VG project and put no one in charge of making sure that these guys stayed on course/schedule (especially after the microsoft debacle), and soe ONLY gave them a deadline and said "we release on this date"?
because 1 - mcquaid has said "we made a commitment to release on a certain date and we kept to that promise/commitment".
and B - if SOE had no one overseeing this project, with their YEARS of experience in the mmo industry; i'm sorry, but how exactly can you say SOE has no part in the blame? microsoft had people overseeing the project (damn zoo tycoon, xbox 360 and windows vista~!! it's all their faults~!!), and isn't microsoft NOOB in the mmo arena, whereas SOE, supposedly, is da uber mastah of mmos?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Thank you all for your lovely opinions regarding my post. Mostly just the people with the serious posts. You especially boojiboy. Your help really said everything I wanted to say in three sentences.
Daedelus: I didnt mean to claim that VG was perfect, I was merely saying that it has laid a strong foundation to build upon. Surely VG has its issues, like every MMO. Despite VG's sorry release, it still has a expansive framework to work with. As for the SOE comment, they were the reason for VG's sorry release. I am aware that they had no part in development, but if they left the scheduling up to Sigil, perhaps Brad would have had the chance to make the game everything we were promised.
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
so, what you're saying is that SOE took over funding the VG project and put no one in charge of making sure that these guys stayed on course/schedule (especially after the microsoft debacle), and soe ONLY gave them a deadline and said "we release on this date"?
because 1 - mcquaid has said "we made a commitment to release on a certain date and we kept to that promise/commitment".
and B - if SOE had no one overseeing this project, with their YEARS of experience in the mmo industry; i'm sorry, but how exactly can you say SOE has no part in the blame? microsoft had people overseeing the project (damn zoo tycoon, xbox 360 and windows vista~!! it's all their faults~!!), and isn't microsoft NOOB in the mmo arena, whereas SOE, supposedly, is da uber mastah of mmos?
Accually MS has made several attempts at an MMO. Odd how they only seem able to make an attempt.
Comments
Interesting, In all the time I played WoW, I ran into, at best, a handfull of people under age 18. Of the three guilds I was in, on two different servers, I'd say the median age was in the 30's.
During my time in beta in Vanguard, as well as after release, I could see no discernible difference between the overall community of the two games. In chat, or on the various forums. WAR will be no different.
Feel free to check this thread if you feel like questioning the median age of gamers in general.
Interesting, In all the time I played WoW, I ran into, at best, a handfull of people under age 18. Of the three guilds I was in, on two different servers, I'd say the median age was in the 30's.
During my time in beta in Vanguard, as well as after release, I could see no discernible difference between the overall community of the two games. In chat, or on the various forums. WAR will be no different.
Feel free to check this thread if you feel like questioning the median age of gamers in general.
I see your point here Coldmeat. Its really the same point that makes arguing about MMO's so redundant.
A players experience in an MMO is purely situational. Everybody's experience is different, and everyone runs into different people. Its all affected by your server, the time of day you play the most, and all sorts of other lurking variables that change the way you see the game.
I do not doubt for a second that some of the most elite MMO players play WoW. After all it has 8 million+ subscribers. However, this also means that the majority of them will be first time MMOers. Before WoW, I'm not sure there was even 8 million that played MMO's at all. WoW showed all the non MMO players that even THEY could belong in an MMO type setting.
But lets not turn this into a bash WoW thread...it deserves all the credit it gets, and us MMO lovers have a lot to thank WoW for.
Also, besides the fact that the OP was obviously fairly young, I feel many of the posters here are somewhat older than the average MMO player. Dont use the forum base here to estimate the average age of MMO players, especially on WoW, becasue it really cant be considered an accurate guess.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
You have to grind in every MMO.
I played L2 for the better part of 2 years, and still do off and on. The two games are NOTHING alike. L2's quests are designed to help you earn money, not get XP, although there are a few that do give some XP.
You grind no more, or less, in VG then you do in ANY MMO. And it is not even remotely close to the way you gotta grind in L2. I guess you never figurd out that you're not supposed to xp grind in L2, that is unless you buy adena to afford your gear.
I've noticed that people that dislike VG try to use the L2 grind as an example of why it's a bad game. Why? Because L2 has a bad rep for being a very slow game. It took a almost a year for a player to reach max level on the Deviane server I believe. You can hit 50 in VG in a couple months; faster if you want.
I was wondering. You've been posting here for quite some time Abraxos. How long did you play for?
Wish Darkfall would release.
Did you play the PvE part? I did, to lvl 11. You do quests, over, and over, and over. That's called grinding.
And guild wars isn't an MMORPG. It's online co-op. Not the same. Guildwars 2 will be an MMORPG.
And no GW doesn't have more. It has much less.
Edit. Oh, before you could buy everything you need for GW, in order to unlock all the abilities and gear you had to do the PvE part of the game. That in itself is a grind. See, lots of grinding in GW, and still every MMO has a grind.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
What exactly are you trying to say here? All western MMO's are just a grindfest masked by lore and good graphics?
This is where many of our differences may lie. Some of you may play MMO's for this reason. If its pretty and the story behind it gives me reason to grind, then I dont mind grinding. Personally, I HATE grinding, and no amount of lore or "polish" can make it any better. I dont like grinding in VG any more than I liked grinding in L2.
I really cant comment on VG as a PvE game. I play on an FFA PVP server. This is the only way I think I could have fun on VG, or any MMO for that matter. If PvP is not an element of a MMO, I dont play it. If I am interested in a story line, why play a non linear game? For a good story I would go back to Suikoden on Playstation, or hell, read a book. The point is, if you dont grind, you dont get better, and in an extremely competitive MMO PVP environment, getting better is a must. I truly respect the fact that VG gives us this FFA PvP option, because not many MMO's do. If you find VG boring, come on over to the Tharridon server and let me show you how to have some fun.
That's exactly what I'm saying. All MMORPGs (not just Western) are grindfests. The good ones are the ones that make you feel like it's not a grind. Good questing, good lore, good graphics, and interesting combat and classes make people not realize it is grind. Possibly it isn't grind anymore if you don't realize it is grind?
Lord of the Rings lets you see Gandalf occasionally while your killing 10 rabbits for a Dwarven stew and has the quest giver tell you about the history of said stew as well. If you're a Tolkien fan and remember the index that he mentioned Dwarven culinary delights, then you forget or overlook that you are killing 10 rabbits to move the XP bar.
I'm not putting down LoTRs because I am playing it now and enjoying it but if you look deep you can see the same PVE as other games. It's just well written with smooth transitions.
Vanguard's problem from a PvE perspective was it didn't have any soul to it. Very little lore, very little flash or polish, and then once you throw in the bugs and lack of content and it was very easy to see that "grind".
From a PvP perspective, I can see where Vanguard might work better. If you don't care about the story and are just making your own entertainment based on how many people you can kill then VG is as good as most others I would imagine?
Vaedur
How much do you pity me? Is it a deep sympathy, or just a passing fancy?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
What exactly are you trying to say here? All western MMO's are just a grindfest masked by lore and good graphics?
This is where many of our differences may lie. Some of you may play MMO's for this reason. If its pretty and the story behind it gives me reason to grind, then I dont mind grinding. Personally, I HATE grinding, and no amount of lore or "polish" can make it any better. I dont like grinding in VG any more than I liked grinding in L2.
I really cant comment on VG as a PvE game. I play on an FFA PVP server. This is the only way I think I could have fun on VG, or any MMO for that matter. If PvP is not an element of a MMO, I dont play it. If I am interested in a story line, why play a non linear game? For a good story I would go back to Suikoden on Playstation, or hell, read a book. The point is, if you dont grind, you dont get better, and in an extremely competitive MMO PVP environment, getting better is a must. I truly respect the fact that VG gives us this FFA PvP option, because not many MMO's do. If you find VG boring, come on over to the Tharridon server and let me show you how to have some fun.
That's exactly what I'm saying. All MMORPGs (not just Western) are grindfests. The good ones are the ones that make you feel like it's not a grind. Good questing, good lore, good graphics, and interesting combat and classes make people not realize it is grind. Possibly it isn't grind anymore if you don't realize it is grind?
Lord of the Rings lets you see Gandalf occasionally while your killing 10 rabbits for a Dwarven stew and has the quest giver tell you about the history of said stew as well. If you're a Tolkien fan and remember the index that he mentioned Dwarven culinary delights, then you forget or overlook that you are killing 10 rabbits to move the XP bar.
I'm not putting down LoTRs because I am playing it now and enjoying it but if you look deep you can see the same PVE as other games. It's just well written with smooth transitions.
Vanguard's problem from a PvE perspective was it didn't have any soul to it. Very little lore, very little flash or polish, and then once you throw in the bugs and lack of content and it was very easy to see that "grind".
From a PvP perspective, I can see where Vanguard might work better. If you don't care about the story and are just making your own entertainment based on how many people you can kill then VG is as good as most others I would imagine?
Ahh Abraxos, now we are finally starting to get somewhere in this thread! Finally the bashing subsides, and the true colors of the MMO players bleeds through. I knew all you trolls had souls after all.
The point here is this: everyone here plays MMO's for a different reason. For some, VG satisfied this reason, for others it does not. So, what are you looking for in YOUR perfect MMO. Personally, I am looking for a player created envrionment of relationships and reputation. A place where my name is known -- respected by some, and feared by others. I am also looking for graphics that make me forget I am playing a video game. I care less about bugs and performance than most, and this is why VG satisfies me. From a PvP perspective VG is a good game. I can see how PvE may piss some people off, and while VG didnt even mean to become a PvP game, I think it mistakenly will (and should) move in that direction. The infamy system works, and others on the PvP servers are generally happy with the PvP.
Since VG did nothing, I agree, to build up a story line and motivation for players to be the ultimate PvE character, why should you want to waste your time in this area? I do not blame you at all for playing LOTR if you are a lore type of dude, but thats just not me, and frankly even if my character was supposed to love to eat rabbits, I would still enjoy killing the guy I was competing with the rabbits for than pretending I loved to eat them.
Others however have different priorities. Abraxos for example wants lore and environmental interaction/reality. He wants to kill those rabbits for a reason that is motivational to his character. Again, I could grind mindlessly for days, not for this, but so I can get revenge on that evil SOB that bind camped me over and over three days ago...
If you find yourself feeling lost and empty as a Vanguard subscriber...come on over to Tharridon, and I would be happy to show why I am VG's biggest "Vanboi".
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
Boy, you sure seem to know a lot about stuff that never happened...
Well at least you've risen above that kind of behavior...
You should go tell your friends how you "pwned" him on "teh interwebz". They will surely be impressed by this.
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
You have to grind in every MMO.
I played L2 for the better part of 2 years, and still do off and on. The two games are NOTHING alike. L2's quests are designed to help you earn money, not get XP, although there are a few that do give some XP.
You grind no more, or less, in VG then you do in ANY MMO. And it is not even remotely close to the way you gotta grind in L2. I guess you never figurd out that you're not supposed to xp grind in L2, that is unless you buy adena to afford your gear.
I've noticed that people that dislike VG try to use the L2 grind as an example of why it's a bad game. Why? Because L2 has a bad rep for being a very slow game. It took a almost a year for a player to reach max level on the Deviane server I believe. You can hit 50 in VG in a couple months; faster if you want.
I was wondering. You've been posting here for quite some time Abraxos. How long did you play for?
I didn't play Lineage II very long because early on it began to feel like grind. I can't say personally that Lineage was a longer grind than Vanguard but I can say that both felt like a grind. I had to personally log in and force myself to kill mobs because neither grabbed me and pulled me in. In EQI , VG and in Lineage II, I mainly killed mobs for XP. That's what you did. VG had more quests than either of the other two games but I couldn't tell you anything about my Orc in VG or my Ogre in Lineage but I could tell you alot about my Dark Elf in EQ. (Homeland, religion, history, racial personality etc).
I'm just saying you can level to max in a week but it can feel like a grind if the content lacks something. You can also grind out for two years to hit max and never even think about it or watch your bar if the world feels alive. Again, this is more of a PvE perspective than a PvP perspective.
First of the LOOOOONG List about what is wrong with that single sentence...
Warhammer, as such, is an IP made by Games Workshop. Warhammer features many many Games until now, both PC Games, Tabletop Games, and Pen and Paper games.
What you probably meant, but failed to properly write down is Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (WAR in short), the first Warhammer Fantasy MMORPG (that will be completed...).
Even ignoring this blatant ignorance, there is SO MUCH wrong with your Sentence.
It's like saying: "Risk is a Clone of a World Map, plain and simple", because it looks roughly equal.
WoW was a Game planned as PURE PvE Game. In very early Development stages, the Horde wasn't planned to be Playable, it was Alliance only.
WoW's PvP is tacked on the PvE part. WAR is planned with PvP and RvR Focus in Mind from Second one. But well, you can all read this on the official Webpage of Warhammer Online, if you are able to understand simple english sentences that is...
Maybe spend more than 20 Seconds looking into a game before degrading it to a "Clone of something else"?
I won't rant on about the OBVIOUS differences between WoW's and WAR's gameplay differences, but one last thing has to be said (again...):
The Warcraft IP was a carbon copy of Parts of the Warhammer IP. While both IPs then evolved into two different IPs, the General Look of the World, the Units and all is still mostly the same, with Warhammer being the Original.
So, if anything, WoW is a Copy of Warhammer. And Warhammer Online is just using the Original IP instead of some Carbon Copy.
Wow, that's a loooooong rant about a single sentence. Guess it would take ages to point out everything that is wrong in your post (that I won't bother to read).
You should go tell your friends how you "pwned" him on "teh interwebz". They will surely be impressed by this.
Cute, but I was talking about his writing. You can't act like you are better than someone and be so pompous if you write like a fool or a child. I was rude, but I meant to be. I, however, did not say things like "OK champ" and try to show of my knowledge while demonstrating that I knew nothing. He did. I respond to people on forums in kind. You don't strike me as a bad person, but you didn't do anything more than respond to my rudeness. That, however, is not your place. But then, it wasn't really my place to be rude to him.
As for him, I said that largely because he bashed Vanguard so much. I have not played it, nor have I any reason to (unless someone tells me you can do barrel rolls on dragons, then I might) but the beauty of having so many different games is that we all have the choice to chose what we want.
The OP might have gone a little far by saying that WAR was a WoW clone, but the way people responded to him show their own arrogance and ignorance. There was no reason for them to "flame" (I hate using that word, but it fits here.) him for saying that, especially if he (as I suspect is the case) is a younger gamer. He would be unfamilliar with Warhammer, and to be honest, if you look at screenshots, the interface and the art style of the graphics are strikingly similar. Ann now some comedy! http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10
Nothing else he said really struck me as bashing the games, and seemed like an honest assesment of those games. It is a serious problem when someone cannot say anything negative about a game without it being considered bashing, especially when that person also hit on the negative things about Vanguard. All games have negative points and positive points.
People like you, and everyone else who is flaming the poor OP, need to grow up and learn to discuss things contructively. Until you can do that, I will be as rude to you as you are to others.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
First of the LOOOOONG List about what is wrong with that single sentence...
Warhammer, as such, is an IP made by Games Workshop. Warhammer features many many Games until now, both PC Games, Tabletop Games, and Pen and Paper games.
What you probably meant, but failed to properly write down is Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (WAR in short), the first Warhammer Fantasy MMORPG (that will be completed...).
Even ignoring this blatant ignorance, there is SO MUCH wrong with your Sentence.
It's like saying: "Risk is a Clone of a World Map, plain and simple", because it looks roughly equal.
WoW was a Game planned as PURE PvE Game. In very early Development stages, the Horde wasn't planned to be Playable, it was Alliance only.
WoW's PvP is tacked on the PvE part. WAR is planned with PvP and RvR Focus in Mind from Second one. But well, you can all read this on the official Webpage of Warhammer Online, if you are able to understand simple english sentences that is...
Maybe spend more than 20 Seconds looking into a game before degrading it to a "Clone of something else"?
I won't rant on about the OBVIOUS differences between WoW's and WAR's gameplay differences, but one last thing has to be said (again...):
The Warcraft IP was a carbon copy of Parts of the Warhammer IP. While both IPs then evolved into two different IPs, the General Look of the World, the Units and all is still mostly the same, with Warhammer being the Original.
So, if anything, WoW is a Copy of Warhammer. And Warhammer Online is just using the Original IP instead of some Carbon Copy.
Wow, that's a loooooong rant about a single sentence. Guess it would take ages to point out everything that is wrong in your post (that I won't bother to read).
Again, don't be such a rude person to this guy; this sentence has been bashed enough. The two PC games are very similar, despite having a different focus and different classes and such. Something I have seen is that most people say "clone" and mean "derived from," just as people say this or that is an EQ clone. Most MMOs do take a great deal from EQs world and basic gameplay.
And at any rate, they are both derived from Tolkien.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I love he game, since launch, and it just gets better. Now if someone asks for an opinion, I am going to give him the positives and the negatives, but you could always expect a bias on my part, since I adore this game. It is people like you that try to convince US that we are not enjoying ourselves. That is a tad hypocrite isn't it?
Hahahaha.
Dont you love it when people tell you what you like? I mean obviously this guy knows whats best for us!
Winter: Im not patting myself on the back for anything other than standing up for VG, the game I feel deserves a lot more credit than people give it. I could name 10 other MMO's that have ten times harder grind than VG. Any MMO that is produced in the US probably does not have THAT hard of a grind. Try a Korean MMO if you like intense grinding.
I was in Beta for Vanguard and Lineage II. Both we're actually very similiar in that you did little quests for XP and then grinded mobs for more XP. VG may have housing and boats and stuff but in general you have to grind to get to them just like you have to grind in Lineage II to get to the PvP part. I didn't buy Lineage II at release due to lack of content but even it was more polished and ran better and looked better than VG and it is a good bit older. I think it is a lost cause for VG. Most Korean games need very little reason to get their populace to grind. Here is a game with some big eyed adrogynous avatars with big swords. You need to grind for gold. That's all they generally need. Western games more and more need to disguise their grind with Lore and polish and VG simply didn't have either of these things to help it limp along.
You have to grind in every MMO.
I played L2 for the better part of 2 years, and still do off and on. The two games are NOTHING alike. L2's quests are designed to help you earn money, not get XP, although there are a few that do give some XP.
You grind no more, or less, in VG then you do in ANY MMO. And it is not even remotely close to the way you gotta grind in L2. I guess you never figurd out that you're not supposed to xp grind in L2, that is unless you buy adena to afford your gear.
I've noticed that people that dislike VG try to use the L2 grind as an example of why it's a bad game. Why? Because L2 has a bad rep for being a very slow game. It took a almost a year for a player to reach max level on the Deviane server I believe. You can hit 50 in VG in a couple months; faster if you want.
I was wondering. You've been posting here for quite some time Abraxos. How long did you play for?
I didn't play Lineage II very long because early on it began to feel like grind. I can't say personally that Lineage was a longer grind than Vanguard but I can say that both felt like a grind. I had to personally log in and force myself to kill mobs because neither grabbed me and pulled me in. In EQI , VG and in Lineage II, I mainly killed mobs for XP. That's what you did. VG had more quests than either of the other two games but I couldn't tell you anything about my Orc in VG or my Ogre in Lineage but I could tell you alot about my Dark Elf in EQ. (Homeland, religion, history, racial personality etc).
I'm just saying you can level to max in a week but it can feel like a grind if the content lacks something. You can also grind out for two years to hit max and never even think about it or watch your bar if the world feels alive. Again, this is more of a PvE perspective than a PvP perspective.
See, I like MMO's that just sorta dump you in the world. L2 and VG are like that.
If you can't get into the game, then you won't like the grind that game has to offer.
EQ2 is fun, and the grind isn't so bad in it. The quest grinding really gets to me though. levelled several characters to thier low 20's, but could never really get into the world. I would put VG's leveling at about par with EQ2. I think that Sigil struck a nice balance between mob grinding, and Quest grinding as well.
VG and L2 are the only MMO's I've played were the world feels open. Completely dif. grind style though.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Did you play the PvE part? I did, to lvl 11. You do quests, over, and over, and over. That's called grinding.
And guild wars isn't an MMORPG. It's online co-op. Not the same. Guildwars 2 will be an MMORPG.
And no GW doesn't have more. It has much less.
Edit. Oh, before you could buy everything you need for GW, in order to unlock all the abilities and gear you had to do the PvE part of the game. That in itself is a grind. See, lots of grinding in GW, and still every MMO has a grind.
um, i put up a few buy and sell orders and i have tens of millions of isks in a day's time in eve online.
where's my grind?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Did you play the PvE part? I did, to lvl 11. You do quests, over, and over, and over. That's called grinding.
And guild wars isn't an MMORPG. It's online co-op. Not the same. Guildwars 2 will be an MMORPG.
And no GW doesn't have more. It has much less.
Edit. Oh, before you could buy everything you need for GW, in order to unlock all the abilities and gear you had to do the PvE part of the game. That in itself is a grind. See, lots of grinding in GW, and still every MMO has a grind.
um, i put up a few buy and sell orders and i have tens of millions of isks in a day's time in eve online.
where's my grind?
How did you start out? Did you do some of the curioure quests? Did you do some of the hunting quests? Did you start off harvesting asteroids?
You did something, because you know as well as I do that your statement is very misleading. You play the market?
Quest grinding
Harvet grinding
Econmics grinding. Oh yeah, the economy can be a grind game as well. Buying and selling to stay on tops requires you to stay on top of the market.
Are you training skills? You may not have to do anything but wait for the skill to finish, but waiting can be a grind as well. You don't neccesarilly have to be doing something, even the act of doing nothing can turn into a grind if you have to do it repetively.
Still not an MMO without a grind. It's the backbone of the genre. Time sinks. All a grind is, a time sink.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Interesting, In all the time I played WoW, I ran into, at best, a handfull of people under age 18. Of the three guilds I was in, on two different servers, I'd say the median age was in the 30's.
During my time in beta in Vanguard, as well as after release, I could see no discernible difference between the overall community of the two games. In chat, or on the various forums. WAR will be no different.
Feel free to check this thread if you feel like questioning the median age of gamers in general.
just to caveat on this thought ...
if you, the reader of this post, have ever played more than ONE mmo, then you are proving my point before i even state it. remember that, because it's truth.
no matter the mmo - you're playing with the same group of people.
if you feel a certain mmo has a more mature group, odds are, it's the people in THAT guild/clan or that zone/level range that you're at.
prove me wrong. how many people reading this have only ever playing one MMO-type game?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
so, what you're saying is that SOE took over funding the VG project and put no one in charge of making sure that these guys stayed on course/schedule (especially after the microsoft debacle), and soe ONLY gave them a deadline and said "we release on this date"?
because 1 - mcquaid has said "we made a commitment to release on a certain date and we kept to that promise/commitment".
and B - if SOE had no one overseeing this project, with their YEARS of experience in the mmo industry; i'm sorry, but how exactly can you say SOE has no part in the blame? microsoft had people overseeing the project (damn zoo tycoon, xbox 360 and windows vista~!! it's all their faults~!!), and isn't microsoft NOOB in the mmo arena, whereas SOE, supposedly, is da uber mastah of mmos?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I'm sorry, but the scheduling was not left up to Sigil because they had proved themselves to be inept at it. They were given deadlines because they had already jerked around one company with presentations of fake product and things that were never going to be in the game. It is not SOE's fault that it released in the state that it did. It is the people who couldn't get their priorities straight on the development side in the early going, and elect a person with actual project management experience to run things.
If this game makes a comeback, it will be because of the work that SOE puts into fixing it and bringing it up to speed, and because of the loyal customers who stuck with it in the tough times.
SOE was not the reason for Vanguard's sorry release. If the scheduling was completely left up to Brad they would still be drawing pictures somewhere theorizing how things would work and trying to define their target audience, and giving fake product to his investors to keep them off his back. He's not the first of his type in the business world, but that is why companies put deadlines. To make you realize that that if you fux around, they will go elsewhere or step in and put in deadlines. Being bad at time & project management didn't make Brad a bad guy, just a bad CEO.
I hope the game makes some turnaround for the loyal ones out there, but the first step is not to blame the wrong people. SOE basically stepped in and saved the game you love so much from going completely under. I would not look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you need to ride it somewhere (i.e. depend on it) and throw blame where it's not deserved.
so, what you're saying is that SOE took over funding the VG project and put no one in charge of making sure that these guys stayed on course/schedule (especially after the microsoft debacle), and soe ONLY gave them a deadline and said "we release on this date"?
because 1 - mcquaid has said "we made a commitment to release on a certain date and we kept to that promise/commitment".
and B - if SOE had no one overseeing this project, with their YEARS of experience in the mmo industry; i'm sorry, but how exactly can you say SOE has no part in the blame? microsoft had people overseeing the project (damn zoo tycoon, xbox 360 and windows vista~!! it's all their faults~!!), and isn't microsoft NOOB in the mmo arena, whereas SOE, supposedly, is da uber mastah of mmos?
Accually MS has made several attempts at an MMO. Odd how they only seem able to make an attempt.
Wish Darkfall would release.