real RPers though, playing DnD Tabletop games never fake their voices do they? no, and they are 10times more roleplayers than you are...
I use to try to make a voice for my character when I play tabletop actually. It's easier for me to get "in character" that way.
But I do that in my native language Swedish, trying out the same thing in English would be horrible... (or horriblier than my native language atleast).
Why don't I use Ventrilo? Main reason, my wife would laugh at me and call me a nerd if I did.
hehe, nice with some honesty around here.
however the way you said it seems more like you lack some confidence in yourself, and if your wife calls you a nerd, imo thats not a good wife, treating her husband like that...
but there are some things i agree with people here, those not wanting to talk on vent, you dont HAVE to talk on vent, you can always just be there and lsiten to others if its to much of a pain to talk...
and if you can hear whats going around you if you got a headset, buy a good headset then, like the headset with only 1 ear piece, that way one ear is free for you to listen if your kid started crying and one ear to listen whats going on vent...
there is nothing like impossible in todays society when it comes to technical problems, well, except for maybe interstellar space travels.
I joined this guild just because of this. My other wow guilds im tryin to talk into requiring it as well. I think it's a really good idea. I want to know who is really a guy or a girl and who is faking being a girl. Plus by asking just a few simple questions you can learn a lot about their maturity and how serious the person is toward helping the guild or if they are just joining for free phat lewt. I think using voice chat is a must nowadays in mmorpgs, if you're a serious gamer.
What is really funny--- I asked my LOTRO guild leader to begin voice interviewing players interested in joining our guild. I figured that LOTRO even has voice chat built in game so it might be a good idea. Everyone in my guild was totally against it though, and thought i was being really weird to the point they all got angry at me. It was weird cause almost everyone in the guild uses voice chat.
I like voice chat. I think that it is way waaay better then having to type all the crap and read the chat box all the time. The advantages to using voice is so much compared to not using it for raids and pvp.
I think players who are so dead against using it to the point where it actually offends them need to get with the times. I think in many cases players who refuse to JUST TURN ON voice chat( just to listen)are so so selfish, especially when it's a feature that is built into the game.
What's the big deal? Why is it so hard for some people just to talk?
Its because of stuck up and snobbish elitist like you, I would much rather solo than join a guild.
Also, learn this, the interview process works both ways. Your guild is being interviewed by the candidate as well.
I hate "Ventrillo" by the way because I have little tolerance for the idiotic garbage that comes out of the mouths of many MMO players ages 16 - 30.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez" Bladezz (The Guild)
Since i am Deaf and have been so since birth i am unable to join your guild.... hmmm this seems a triffle unfair.... when you consdier the fact that i have been a successfull raidier in games that make WoW look like kiddie land... and you are saying you cant kee up with chat from 10-40 toons try EQ where your avergae raid was 60-72 Amazing i always read this site but i never posted till i read this b/c it simply angered me to the point where i had to spea up
and ohh Btw that the ind of thing that ivil right lawsuits start over
Mothelm Reality is a matter of perception....
Nah,youre just assuming that since youre deaf,assuming that we wouldnt make an exception.
Not saying youre not good at playing your character either.Maybe you are the best.
Let me ask you this tho.
Would it make you feel better if we accepted you just because you are deaf and we felt sorry for you?
We dont care how old you are either, as long as you dont sound obnoxious when you talk.
I can type pretty damn fast and usually people complain that I type too much.
I love to use abbreviations and 1337 5p34k,cause its more fun.
Again i get a lot of complaints when i do that.
A lot of people hate it when i do that ,
maybe cause they cant decipher it quickly enough,
and im spamming them with another block of text, before they can comprehend what i just tried to communicate.
When I was playing DAOC starting 5+ years ago, which we all know is a RvR game, we didn't use voice chat and did quite well in both Raids and PvP. It's called using short hand. Now aside from some people being capable of gaming without voicechat, because they have typing skills, there are several reasons why a person should not be insensitive to the fact that people don't want to use voicechat.
* The player may be a parent and not want to bother others in their family with loud people speaking in voice chat over their speakers. (for people who don't have ear phones.)
* Some people are insecure about how their voices sound on voice chat.
* Voice chat ruins the immersion for RPers.
* Some people just plain don't want others to know who they are in real life. Hence, having a second life through their MMORPG. They want to be judged by who they play in character and not by the sound of their voice.
I can understand the need to filter out the people who are joining guilds just for personal benefit, but you can accomplish this through a typed interview as well. It shouldn't matter to you if the person behind the character is really a guy or a girl. There is no difference between girl and guy gamers, so it shouldn't matter to you who is and who isn't really a guy or a girl. You shouldn't show special or different treatment to one gender to the other. When you do, you are discriminating based on gender and being a sexist. While voice chat does make things easier to coordinate for some people, it does destroy some enjoyment for many or we wouldn't be having this conversation now. Plus, some people really are skilled enough with the keyboard to be able to coordinate through the keyboard.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Guild leaders are free to run their own guild however they want.
And members are free to join or leave any guild however they want using whatever criteria they want.
It doesn't need to be more complicated than that peeps.
Who cares whether one particular guild leader wants to require vent, or that all members play hobbits, or that everyone enjoys fine dining and long walks on the beach? If you aren't going to join the guild, what does it matter? Are you bothered that there are groups of people out there with different priorities than your own? Or must every guild be a clone of every other guild?
Guild leaders are free to run their own guild however they want. And members are free to join or leave any guild however they want using whatever criteria they want. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that peeps. Who cares whether one particular guild leader wants to require vent, or that all members play hobbits, or that everyone enjoys fine dining and long walks on the beach? If you aren't going to join the guild, what does it matter? Are you bothered that there are groups of people out there with different priorities than your own? Or must every guild be a clone of every other guild?
No, perhaps everyone is doing the same that you do, give their point of view about a post. If you can do this, why the others can?
There's a few reasons why I hate using and/or listening to vent:
1) I hate using it, because my gaming hours are usually when my family or dormmates are sleeping, so I'd rather not start talking and wake them up. Also, I prefer to keep my real life and game life seperate, so even if they are up, I could do without them barging into the game room and asking who or what I'm talking to every 5 minutes.
2) I hate listening to game audio. I generally just turn on my mp3 player, radio, etc. and listen to music that entertains me. I don't want to listen to a bunch of voices discussing BWL or whatnot interrupting that.
3) The people on the other end. My experience with vent has been either one of two events usually. Either they're incredibly monotone and boring to listen to or they're dumber than a sack of bricks (I can only handle so many guildies saying "What's up my n-word?" or "That bastard tried to jew me" before I get out of dodge) Neither the complete lack of emotion or the bannable stupidity get through in text chat, making for a much less irritating experience.
And as an aside, it really doesn't take much to prove maturity in regular chat. If all a person can do is talk in l33t speak, ask for people to cyber with or can't form a sentence without including 3+ expletives, then they're probably not worth dealing with even if they sound like an old and wizened sage on vent.
Also, as a non-raiding casual (1-2 hours a day maximum), there is very little reason for me to communicate with voice. I don't/can't raid and most of my PvP goes faster than a voice or text can issue commands.
I want to know who is really a guy or a girl and who is faking being a girl. ...snip
Sounds as though the OP is precisely the type of player I'm looking to avoid as a RL girl. I'm here to raid and play a game, not eHarmony.com as someone else aptly pointed out.
You should avoid me,cause all i would do is hit on you and flirt with you non stop until you had a crush on me.
Cause thats what vent is for....
The main reason i want to know your gender is just cause youre a guild member id like to feel comfortable with you in my guild.
And mostly ,cause i have gayphobia,
But now you know the truth.
I dont really care if youre a guy or girl.
I just dont want a pretend girl thats really some gay man.
Go ahead and flame.You mostly all know its true.Im just the rare guy that admits it.
It's a big reason for the interview. Gayphobia is a real problem for me.
Im working on dealing with my problem.
Now I'm seriously creeped out. Glad I don't play LotR or WoW any longer for that matter. Leave the keyboard for a while and get some real life experience. Please.
I typically prefer voice chat when I'm playing an MMO or any other game for that matter. Unfortunately I have played with some people that are annoying enough to make me hop off of vent for an extended period of time. Because of this I consider vent "interviews" a good idea. I'm not sure what type of interview the OP puts prospective members through but for me it is a personality test. If you work well in the guild's environment you add something more than just the ability to help complete a raid. You can add a flavor that simply makes the game more of an experience.
Some people like to vocally communicate and some people do. It's a pretty big factor in how many people choose and participate in guilds. With that said neither is wrong, but communication is absolutely more efficient than typing. PvE raiding may not require it but challenging PvP systems do to succeed, all other variables being held constant.
Just to have fun.. And now you want people to do a bloody interview? GET A JOB
And, yes, some of us don't like to talk.
Why? Because we're enjoying the game. Your pre-teen shrieking is NOT what I ordered when I bought the MMO I'm playing. So, it's not US talking that is the problem. It's You.
Perfectly said. I don't like listening to people talk and it takes away from my feeling like I'm a part of the game world.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
First off, I hate voice chat for a wide range of reasons.
but to actually make it part of a guild interview just seems... SICK!
I mean, no matter what guild or what game, I would never even consider joining one where I had to have a freeking voice interview to join up.
And just for the record - I am a girl, and I have seen guilds before that would "bypass" the usual guild requirements for girls, which to me seems pretty sexist - like girls are not good enough to play unless you sound sexy, but if you are a real girl you don't have to be as GOOD as the guys do??
Voice chat for raiding? I always thought our WoW raids went more smoothly for having Vent, and it's a nice tool to have. But not necessary for the casual gaming experience.
As an interview tool? WTF, who cares what an applicant sounds like! Anything that might be asked verbally can be asked just as easily through good old text chat.
Vent? I can't even get past the need for an interview. I swore to myself since EQ1 that I would never apply/interview to/for a guild. If I have to have an interview in a game then I KNOW this game is a job. I can hardly stand job interviews in real life; like I'm going to suffer for my hobby? What a joke. Do they ask you where you see yourself in five years in the game? What contribution you think you will give to the guild/company? What your guild history is and why you had lapses?
As to vent? You might as well take out the RPG when playing the game then.
first off. WoW sucks. thanks to WoW people who really shouldnt be playing mmos or online games are playing them which is GREAT.... now we get the really bad people playing which ruins the fun for gamers.... thanks WoW...
Real gamers dont need VoIP, in any form. they are already trained in speed typing and able to multi-task 4 things at once while typing.
so "raiding" "pvp" "pve" ect are not hard for keyboard only players
the fact you need VoIP to accept people in your guild makes your guild look bad... only the people who shouldnt play MMO's require that sort of demand on people
i have worked with people in europe who dont like talking on mic. for the sole reason they cant speak english very well. typing is no problem.. speaking is.
as for that whole male/female crap.... WHO CARES. if the person playing a female cleric is a man or female.. if they know what they are doing. and keep you alive GREAT!
i have CB/tested many asian mmos that have locked classes, the support or mage class is female. the warrior/tank is male.. so really who cares what RL gender you have so long as you know your job.. and acually do it well.
to sum-up.
VoIP does not work for everyone. you shouldnt demand people use it, just so you can get your jollys and find out if "isukysukylongtime" is female or not...
if you have to use it to play... geez you should take time to master the game better...
RL gender does not matter in online games just like World politics/ religion or laws dont either. so why bring them to the game.. that only ruins the fun for everyone.
OH and you can tell a RL female ingame from a RL male.. if you cant .... you best get out more.... PC's are rotting your mind...
First off, I hate voice chat for a wide range of reasons. but to actually make it part of a guild interview just seems... SICK! I mean, no matter what guild or what game, I would never even consider joining one where I had to have a freeking voice interview to join up. And just for the record - I am a girl, and I have seen guilds before that would "bypass" the usual guild requirements for girls, which to me seems pretty sexist - like girls are not good enough to play unless you sound sexy, but if you are a real girl you don't have to be as GOOD as the guys do?? WTH - take your guild and shove it.
Yes seems that somepeople in games are so desesperated or so sexist... cant understand, if you are playing whats the avatar or they person who is in the other side of the screen.
Its too funny that this boy justifies the interview saying that they give items to female players... lol! really sexist, but they dont like to give them to men... perhaps they never meet a girl in RL LOL!
I joined this guild just because of this. My other wow guilds im tryin to talk into requiring it as well. I think it's a really good idea. I want to know who is really a guy or a girl and who is faking being a girl.
If you'd quit trying to cyber everybody, it wouldn't matter.
There's an easy way to find real girls - stop being a "serious gamer" and leave the house once in a while.
Choosing to use or not use voice chat in games is primarily a pshychological preference. Flamers on both sides of this debate would do well to learn about the human operating system, rather than attack others preferences.
Back when I played MMORPGs (Asheron's Call) there were no voice programs (or bots/add-ons/macros, those came later in AC) and we did just fine. I don't need a voice program for a raid or quest as that was never a problem before and I refuse to use one. If a guild requires one, I don't join and find a guild that doesn't require one. I don't care if you think its required for a raid, because it isn't...heck I even tried EQ and me and my guild raided without vent/ts back before they were invented and we did just fine...just required more SKILL.
It goes a long way in filtering the guilds I would like to actually be a part of. The mentality expressed by Mr Nerd here is EXACTLY what I avoid in my gaming diversions.
Even if real voices were harmonized to resemble the genre of the game, you would still have to deal with the stupid things people say and do. It's annoying. You still see people saying stupid things with a keyboard, but less of it and it's easier to ignore.
Comments
But I do that in my native language Swedish, trying out the same thing in English would be horrible... (or horriblier than my native language atleast).
Why don't I use Ventrilo? Main reason, my wife would laugh at me and call me a nerd if I did.
hehe, nice with some honesty around here.however the way you said it seems more like you lack some confidence in yourself, and if your wife calls you a nerd, imo thats not a good wife, treating her husband like that...
but there are some things i agree with people here, those not wanting to talk on vent, you dont HAVE to talk on vent, you can always just be there and lsiten to others if its to much of a pain to talk...
and if you can hear whats going around you if you got a headset, buy a good headset then, like the headset with only 1 ear piece, that way one ear is free for you to listen if your kid started crying and one ear to listen whats going on vent...
there is nothing like impossible in todays society when it comes to technical problems, well, except for maybe interstellar space travels.
Also, learn this, the interview process works both ways. Your guild is being interviewed by the candidate as well.
I hate "Ventrillo" by the way because I have little tolerance for the idiotic garbage that comes out of the mouths of many MMO players ages 16 - 30.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez"
Bladezz (The Guild)
Not saying youre not good at playing your character either.Maybe you are the best.
Let me ask you this tho.
Would it make you feel better if we accepted you just because you are deaf and we felt sorry for you?
We dont care how old you are either, as long as you dont sound obnoxious when you talk.
I can type pretty damn fast and usually people complain that I type too much.
I love to use abbreviations and 1337 5p34k,cause its more fun.
Again i get a lot of complaints when i do that.
A lot of people hate it when i do that ,
maybe cause they cant decipher it quickly enough,
and im spamming them with another block of text, before they can comprehend what i just tried to communicate.
*shrug * another positive for voice chat.
When I was playing DAOC starting 5+ years ago, which we all know is a RvR game, we didn't use voice chat and did quite well in both Raids and PvP. It's called using short hand. Now aside from some people being capable of gaming without voicechat, because they have typing skills, there are several reasons why a person should not be insensitive to the fact that people don't want to use voicechat.
* The player may be a parent and not want to bother others in their family with loud people speaking in voice chat over their speakers. (for people who don't have ear phones.)
* Some people are insecure about how their voices sound on voice chat.
* Voice chat ruins the immersion for RPers.
* Some people just plain don't want others to know who they are in real life. Hence, having a second life through their MMORPG. They want to be judged by who they play in character and not by the sound of their voice.
I can understand the need to filter out the people who are joining guilds just for personal benefit, but you can accomplish this through a typed interview as well. It shouldn't matter to you if the person behind the character is really a guy or a girl. There is no difference between girl and guy gamers, so it shouldn't matter to you who is and who isn't really a guy or a girl. You shouldn't show special or different treatment to one gender to the other. When you do, you are discriminating based on gender and being a sexist. While voice chat does make things easier to coordinate for some people, it does destroy some enjoyment for many or we wouldn't be having this conversation now. Plus, some people really are skilled enough with the keyboard to be able to coordinate through the keyboard.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I wouldn't join a guild that does voice interviews. It's not a JOB it's a GAME. I hate WoW and I hate Raiding and I hate phat lewt.
Guild leaders are free to run their own guild however they want.
And members are free to join or leave any guild however they want using whatever criteria they want.
It doesn't need to be more complicated than that peeps.
Who cares whether one particular guild leader wants to require vent, or that all members play hobbits, or that everyone enjoys fine dining and long walks on the beach? If you aren't going to join the guild, what does it matter? Are you bothered that there are groups of people out there with different priorities than your own? Or must every guild be a clone of every other guild?
No, perhaps everyone is doing the same that you do, give their point of view about a post. If you can do this, why the others can?
There's a few reasons why I hate using and/or listening to vent:
1) I hate using it, because my gaming hours are usually when my family or dormmates are sleeping, so I'd rather not start talking and wake them up. Also, I prefer to keep my real life and game life seperate, so even if they are up, I could do without them barging into the game room and asking who or what I'm talking to every 5 minutes.
2) I hate listening to game audio. I generally just turn on my mp3 player, radio, etc. and listen to music that entertains me. I don't want to listen to a bunch of voices discussing BWL or whatnot interrupting that.
3) The people on the other end. My experience with vent has been either one of two events usually. Either they're incredibly monotone and boring to listen to or they're dumber than a sack of bricks (I can only handle so many guildies saying "What's up my n-word?" or "That bastard tried to jew me" before I get out of dodge) Neither the complete lack of emotion or the bannable stupidity get through in text chat, making for a much less irritating experience.
And as an aside, it really doesn't take much to prove maturity in regular chat. If all a person can do is talk in l33t speak, ask for people to cyber with or can't form a sentence without including 3+ expletives, then they're probably not worth dealing with even if they sound like an old and wizened sage on vent.
Also, as a non-raiding casual (1-2 hours a day maximum), there is very little reason for me to communicate with voice. I don't/can't raid and most of my PvP goes faster than a voice or text can issue commands.
Sounds as though the OP is precisely the type of player I'm looking to avoid as a RL girl. I'm here to raid and play a game, not eHarmony.com as someone else aptly pointed out.
You should avoid me,cause all i would do is hit on you and flirt with you non stop until you had a crush on me.
Cause thats what vent is for....
The main reason i want to know your gender is just cause youre a guild member id like to feel comfortable with you in my guild.
And mostly ,cause i have gayphobia,
But now you know the truth.
I dont really care if youre a guy or girl.
I just dont want a pretend girl thats really some gay man.
Go ahead and flame.You mostly all know its true.Im just the rare guy that admits it.
It's a big reason for the interview. Gayphobia is a real problem for me.
Im working on dealing with my problem.
Now I'm seriously creeped out. Glad I don't play LotR or WoW any longer for that matter. Leave the keyboard for a while and get some real life experience. Please.
Mirrim
Chanter, Spatalos Server
I typically prefer voice chat when I'm playing an MMO or any other game for that matter. Unfortunately I have played with some people that are annoying enough to make me hop off of vent for an extended period of time. Because of this I consider vent "interviews" a good idea. I'm not sure what type of interview the OP puts prospective members through but for me it is a personality test. If you work well in the guild's environment you add something more than just the ability to help complete a raid. You can add a flavor that simply makes the game more of an experience.
Some people like to vocally communicate and some people do. It's a pretty big factor in how many people choose and participate in guilds. With that said neither is wrong, but communication is absolutely more efficient than typing. PvE raiding may not require it but challenging PvP systems do to succeed, all other variables being held constant.
Ridiculous. Retarded. A VENT interview. GET A FUCKING LIFE!
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.
Ventrilo... *shudder* I went on there ONCE. I left after I had about 5 12 year olds screaming in my ear... *shudder*
Perfectly said. I don't like listening to people talk and it takes away from my feeling like I'm a part of the game world.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
First off, I hate voice chat for a wide range of reasons.
but to actually make it part of a guild interview just seems... SICK!
I mean, no matter what guild or what game, I would never even consider joining one where I had to have a freeking voice interview to join up.
And just for the record - I am a girl, and I have seen guilds before that would "bypass" the usual guild requirements for girls, which to me seems pretty sexist - like girls are not good enough to play unless you sound sexy, but if you are a real girl you don't have to be as GOOD as the guys do??
WTH - take your guild and shove it.
Voice chat for raiding? I always thought our WoW raids went more smoothly for having Vent, and it's a nice tool to have. But not necessary for the casual gaming experience.
As an interview tool? WTF, who cares what an applicant sounds like! Anything that might be asked verbally can be asked just as easily through good old text chat.
Vent? I can't even get past the need for an interview. I swore to myself since EQ1 that I would never apply/interview to/for a guild. If I have to have an interview in a game then I KNOW this game is a job. I can hardly stand job interviews in real life; like I'm going to suffer for my hobby? What a joke. Do they ask you where you see yourself in five years in the game? What contribution you think you will give to the guild/company? What your guild history is and why you had lapses?
As to vent? You might as well take out the RPG when playing the game then.
first off. WoW sucks. thanks to WoW people who really shouldnt be playing mmos or online games are playing them which is GREAT.... now we get the really bad people playing which ruins the fun for gamers.... thanks WoW...
Real gamers dont need VoIP, in any form. they are already trained in speed typing and able to multi-task 4 things at once while typing.
so "raiding" "pvp" "pve" ect are not hard for keyboard only players
the fact you need VoIP to accept people in your guild makes your guild look bad... only the people who shouldnt play MMO's require that sort of demand on people
i have worked with people in europe who dont like talking on mic. for the sole reason they cant speak english very well. typing is no problem.. speaking is.
as for that whole male/female crap.... WHO CARES. if the person playing a female cleric is a man or female.. if they know what they are doing. and keep you alive GREAT!
i have CB/tested many asian mmos that have locked classes, the support or mage class is female. the warrior/tank is male.. so really who cares what RL gender you have so long as you know your job.. and acually do it well.
to sum-up.
VoIP does not work for everyone. you shouldnt demand people use it, just so you can get your jollys and find out if "isukysukylongtime" is female or not...
if you have to use it to play... geez you should take time to master the game better...
RL gender does not matter in online games just like World politics/ religion or laws dont either. so why bring them to the game.. that only ruins the fun for everyone.
OH and you can tell a RL female ingame from a RL male.. if you cant .... you best get out more.... PC's are rotting your mind...
Yes seems that somepeople in games are so desesperated or so sexist... cant understand, if you are playing whats the avatar or they person who is in the other side of the screen.
Its too funny that this boy justifies the interview saying that they give items to female players... lol! really sexist, but they dont like to give them to men... perhaps they never meet a girl in RL LOL!
There's an easy way to find real girls - stop being a "serious gamer" and leave the house once in a while.
I can see it now:
Player1: d00d, y u so bummed????
Player2: meh, didnt make teh guild. voice cracked in teh vent interveiw.
Mirrim
Chanter, Spatalos Server
Choosing to use or not use voice chat in games is primarily a pshychological preference. Flamers on both sides of this debate would do well to learn about the human operating system, rather than attack others preferences.
A quick Jungian explanation can be found here.
http://changingminds.org/explanations/preferences/extravert_introvert.htm
its a sad day when people try and make mmo to a dating center lol
Back when I played MMORPGs (Asheron's Call) there were no voice programs (or bots/add-ons/macros, those came later in AC) and we did just fine. I don't need a voice program for a raid or quest as that was never a problem before and I refuse to use one. If a guild requires one, I don't join and find a guild that doesn't require one. I don't care if you think its required for a raid, because it isn't...heck I even tried EQ and me and my guild raided without vent/ts back before they were invented and we did just fine...just required more SKILL.
-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!-!
I have a Youtube channel for video games! http://www.youtube.com/user/Vendayn
That is a great requirement!
It goes a long way in filtering the guilds I would like to actually be a part of. The mentality expressed by Mr Nerd here is EXACTLY what I avoid in my gaming diversions.
Keep up the good work!
I will never use voice chat. It ruins immersion.
Even if real voices were harmonized to resemble the genre of the game, you would still have to deal with the stupid things people say and do. It's annoying. You still see people saying stupid things with a keyboard, but less of it and it's easier to ignore.