I already investigated enough research to know where I stand and why I stand by my claims also when this war went financial 10 pages back or so people brought up 1.5 million for lineage yet lineage is a Korean MMO meaning sure alot of US players might play II but not Lineage 1 ... and until you show me the US Lineage 1 and II market subascriber numbers you have nothing. The reference to ASIAAAAAAAA gaming market was that in ASIA since you obviously discovered a way of changing the words from china to asia to korea is that asia is 60% of the world .... america is more like 5-9% .... America as in the ACTUAL US not North AMerica ...
Other way you can validate your claims would be if you found legitimate documentation stating that many subscribers pay in British pounds which tends to be a bit more than the american dollar these days or even euros... now the american dollar to the Asian value out weighs it ... also the monthly fee is alot lower ... you can give me all the documents you want that says anything you want I have friends directly from china ... I believe they can offer me more facts then some www.blah.com/blah/blah/blah/yadayada.jsp . I think its almost time to make a new thread laying out all the facts pros and cons un-covered so this thread can die and maybe other people can get in on this discussion ... since ultimately it has changed from what the base was as EVERYONE acknowledged only title and typically would not even read into the conversation ....
Games Enjoyed: UO,EQ,AC,EQ2,COX,LOTRO Games Played(-Above):WoW,MXO,GW(beta),RFO,ArchLord,V:SOH,Rappelz,Ryzom,DDO Games I felt were a rip-off: DDO,ArchLord,V:SOH - all newer how ironic
Seriously, you can stop proving that you don't know what your talking about already. I have been an RO player for 3 years and in those 3 years I was interested in anything that had to do with Ragnarok Online.
More facts:
Fact 1: Ragnarok online counts accounts created, NOT active subscribers/players.
Fact 2: Gravity Corporation has been sued for lying about the growth of their subscribtion numbers.
Here is a part of the lawsuit. It doesn't show all details (its going to take me a bit longer to find the document that has all info in it, its an old report)
Sariah, do yourself a favor and don't go into debate with me
Torak just wanted #150 Its not even a debate over SOE having its hand in mmo's anymore now its just a opinion>fact war. I state facts they get over looked or downplayed other people state documents that are appearantly golden .... Thats life ...
I seriously doubt ragnorok was 13 million and 1 subscribers wrong which means even if they slightly inflated by 1-2 million or completely inflated by 10 million they would still have 1 million subscribers. Now stop thinking everything you post is right and every piece of information I post is invalid.... If the documents showing subscriptions is wrong about EQ makign it to 550,000 which it isn't then it would be wrong about Lineage having 1.5 million to. It cant go one direction without going the other. And saying the documents are a guestimate also leaves there room for belief that it could be higher than posted meaning maybe 600,000 US subscribers. So if your ready to role on this debate drop the your wrong im right act and prove yourself. You havnt proved anything yet other than we can both find documents on the internet... and we both no NOTHING ON THE WEB IS LIES... EVERYTHING IS REAL.... so the ammount of credit you give any information I find is the same amount I give to yours... one thing you forget the world is more worried about Paris Hiltons resturaunt cravings then troops dying in war.
Your not making any sense at this point, topics dead. Whatever point you were trying to make about SOE running everything you muddled up and lost.
I already investigated enough research to know where I stand and why I stand by my claims also when this war went financial 10 pages back or so people brought up 1.5 million for lineage yet lineage is a Korean MMO meaning sure alot of US players might play II but not Lineage 1 ... and until you show me the US Lineage 1 and II market subascriber numbers you have nothing. The reference to ASIAAAAAAAA gaming market was that in ASIA since you obviously discovered a way of changing the words from china to asia to korea is that asia is 60% of the world .... america is more like 5-9% .... America as in the ACTUAL US not North AMerica ... Other way you can validate your claims would be if you found legitimate documentation stating that many subscribers pay in British pounds which tends to be a bit more than the american dollar these days or even euros... now the american dollar to the Asian value out weighs it ... also the monthly fee is alot lower ... you can give me all the documents you want that says anything you want I have friends directly from china ... I believe they can offer me more facts then some www.blah.com/blah/blah/blah/yadayada.jsp . I think its almost time to make a new thread laying out all the facts pros and cons un-covered so this thread can die and maybe other people can get in on this discussion ... since ultimately it has changed from what the base was as EVERYONE acknowledged only title and typically would not even read into the conversation ....
I NEVER claimed that Lineage had a lot of US subscribers, I said that Lineage had more subscribers in asia.
It doesn't matter if Asia has more people, since many US games such as Everquest, Everquest 2 and Ultima Online are released in asia as well, and none of them even could even come close to Lineage's subscriber numbers, with the exception of World of Warcraft.
and please tell me you just didn't drag this conversation down through the dirt by saying "Well, I have friends from China!". So what? Are your friends in china a major in economics that study the growth of the MMO market in Asia? Are they experts on the MMORPG market? I doubt it.
By the way, Korean MMO's mostly don't use a monthly subscribtion. They usually use a pay per hour system, and Korean gamers actually pay more then us western gamers. There is no need to make another thread about this, I can sum up what happened in our debate.
1: You claimed that every Korean mmo has 1 million players to counter Lineage and Lineage 2's success arguement, Which is incorrect, not every Korean MMO has 1 million players, far from it.
2: I made a statement that Lineage and Lineage 2 are the only MMO's with 1 million subscribtions. You made an attempt to disprove that by posting an article that claimed Ragnarok Online had millions of subscribers. I pointed out that those are accounts created and that Gravity's numbers should be taken with a piece of salt because Gravity got sued for lying about their subscribtion growth and financial status.
3: For some reason you started to talk about Lineage's US subscribtion base, even though I never argued that Lineage subscribtion base in the US was big. You also mention that I should point you to Lineage and Lineage 2's subscribtion numbers, completely ignoring the fact that I already pointed you towards NCsoft's Financial reports on the official NCsoft site in a previous post.
any1 who thinks SOE is a good company has not played enough sony owned games. They offer a low level of support and rarely bug test there products. If you start in a sony game the day it comes out you are basically paying to beta test a non fully functioning bug ridden project. Beta testing is great but not when your paying per month to do it.
Obviously it will never happend and doesn't need to happen but how amazingly did it work. SOE Games
Everquest (Good Large PlayerBase, One of the greatest games) Old dated and shrinking playerbase.
Everquest 2 (Good Large Playerbase, one of the greatest games) Good large playerbase plent content
StarWars Galaxies (Decent large playerbase) Small playerbase deserted servers
Matrix Online (decent) Cant belive you called this one decent
Vangard Saga of Heroes (SOE is helping Re-Build) Err lets see laggy bugged Graphical glitches most promised content not seen shrinking populations [was 200k nw 50k after the months trial thing] list goes on. And its not a SOE game.
PlanetSide (Good and large playerbase from what I hear) Playerbase is ok but the game content isant updated enough
Pirates of the Burning Sea (Coming Soon) One of the most antisapated NOT a SOE game.
Gods & Heroes (Coming Soon) One of the most antisapated Maybee a good one but its not out yet is it.
The Agency (Coming Soon) NCSOFT
Lineage (Do people still play this)
Lineage II (Isn't this game Free 2 Play now) The playerbase is down. The gold farmer base is up. Has over a million player accounts so thats something tho it is bot infested.
CoX (Good, Large playerbase, lacks new content, zones, boses, story) although the new alien story looks pretty cool
Dungeon Runners (F2P)
AION (Coming Soon) Looks okay
Marvel Universe (Coming soon) I'm looking forward to it EA/Mythic
UO (Good, dated, large playerbase) NOT MYTHIC Err the most origonal MMO ever made ever
DAoC (Good, Large Playerbase, one of the greatest games)
Warhammer (Coming Soon) The most anticipated game One to watch Funcom
Anarchy Online (Decent, Mediocre playerbase, F2P every other year)
Age of Conan (Coming Soon) One of the most anticipated Also one thats showing signs it might not be that good Blizzard
World of Warcraft (One of the best MMO's ever, Decent, Extremely large playerbase)
(Nothing on the burner) Turbine
Asherons Call (Good, Dated, a reknowned game)
Asherons Call II (DEAD)
Dungeons & Dragons (Almost Dead)
LOTRO (Good, Large Playerbase) Webzen
Mu Online (Garbage)
Project Wiki (Garbage)
Parfait Station (McDonalds Trainign Video)
SUN (Coming Soon)
Huxley (Coming soon) Now seriously seeing the above game companies and games how can you honestly compare any of them to SOE. Most of them might have 1 popular game and some of them have NO popular games. Some of them might have 1 Anticipated game... and some of them have NO anticipated games. So for all the trolls out there who want to DOWN SOE. Bring the facts to the table or stop posting on my thread.
You know its imprtant to note that some of those titles that you claim are SOE owned isant made by SOE but was made by a smaller company which was hten brought out and had the SOE stamp put on it. Also #i cant help noting your views are very Pro SOE biased concerning the fact that every game you say is SOE is really great insome way while the rest well most get negative comments appart from a few odd ones.
You know its imprtant to note that some of those titles that you claim are SOE owned isant made by SOE but was made by a smaller company which was hten brought out and had the SOE stamp put on it. Also #i cant help noting your views are very Pro SOE biased concerning the fact that every game you say is SOE is really great insome way while the rest well most get negative comments appart from a few odd ones.
I also not you ahvent listed every developer.
AHH for crying out loud this thread is still going? Honestly ...
Anyway I just wanted to point out that the original post never said games that were developed by sony, it was takling about games that are SOE owned (i.e. published) and that point was mainly becasue of Station Access accounts being able to span all the games that OP likes. So developers really dont matter to the subject of the thread.
Would be nice if SOE owned some rights to every MMO on the market kind of like Wal-Mart owns basically every cities discount everything section.
I'm afraid I didn't read all (ready: hardly any, as it's 5am here) replies, but I think the idea of one company having any kind of monopoly in the MMOG genre would be anything but good for the players. The last thing we need is for any publishers or developers to be able to sit back and be confident there's no real competition. Competition drives development, and should bring us even better games in the future.
That said, it's good to see somebody point out the good sides of SOE. There's too many people who bash Sony because of a single incident or some other reason for having a grudge ("omg, it's popular and successful, so it must be crap"). No matter the arguments concerning money / profit, developers themselves are gamers at heart and deserve much better than the vocal minority gives them on a regular basis.
You know its imprtant to note that some of those titles that you claim are SOE owned isant made by SOE but was made by a smaller company which was hten brought out and had the SOE stamp put on it. Also #i cant help noting your views are very Pro SOE biased concerning the fact that every game you say is SOE is really great insome way while the rest well most get negative comments appart from a few odd ones.
I also not you ahvent listed every developer.
AHH for crying out loud this thread is still going? Honestly ...
Anyway I just wanted to point out that the original post never said games that were developed by sony, it was takling about games that are SOE owned (i.e. published) and that point was mainly becasue of Station Access accounts being able to span all the games that OP likes. So developers really dont matter to the subject of the thread.
So.......
FAIL
Actually it was about SOE having rights to every MMO if you would have read it.... That is the same as PoTBS, VG, MxO, Gods & Heroes they didnt make it but they have their hand in the cookie jar and that can be beneficial to the game IMO.... although the true point of this thread left the second somewhere between post 2-11 by the amount of flames by people who never even really read the starting post.
Games Enjoyed: UO,EQ,AC,EQ2,COX,LOTRO Games Played(-Above):WoW,MXO,GW(beta),RFO,ArchLord,V:SOH,Rappelz,Ryzom,DDO Games I felt were a rip-off: DDO,ArchLord,V:SOH - all newer how ironic
Would be nice if SOE owned some rights to every MMO on the market kind of like Wal-Mart owns basically every cities discount everything section.
I'm afraid I didn't read all (ready: hardly any, as it's 5am here) replies, but I think the idea of one company having any kind of monopoly in the MMOG genre would be anything but good for the players. The last thing we need is for any publishers or developers to be able to sit back and be confident there's no real competition. Competition drives development, and should bring us even better games in the future.
That said, it's good to see somebody point out the good sides of SOE. There's too many people who bash Sony because of a single incident or some other reason for having a grudge ("omg, it's popular and successful, so it must be crap"). No matter the arguments concerning money / profit, developers themselves are gamers at heart and deserve much better than the vocal minority gives them on a regular basis.
Your reply was in better contrast than 90% of them so your partial reading was obviously more than most of the people who posted their "opinions" on the subject...
Games Enjoyed: UO,EQ,AC,EQ2,COX,LOTRO Games Played(-Above):WoW,MXO,GW(beta),RFO,ArchLord,V:SOH,Rappelz,Ryzom,DDO Games I felt were a rip-off: DDO,ArchLord,V:SOH - all newer how ironic
SIGH, the i hate Sony crowd is not gonna like this.
SOE is having a tough time living down SWG, everytime someone praises them another jedi joins the darkside. I don't know if SWG will ever be fixed, but I think SOE has had the opportunity to gain alot more experience as a gaming company than anyone else. This in combonation with their copious amounts of capital says to me that these days if they are backing a game it is to the smaller game companies benefit. I have no complaints in the customer service department with these guys either, they have always been curtious and helpful, almost happy to do their jobs. In my dealings recently I have learned what it can be like to have to deal with a malicious soul in the cockpit of customer service.
I like SOE, and I think SWG could be something again if its not fixed allready, I am not sure because I have not followed the game in some time now.
mmmm yeeeah, thats greeat, a little to the left would be greeeat, ::sips coffee mug:::
Would be nice if SOE owned some rights to every MMO on the market kind of like Wal-Mart owns basically every cities discount everything section. OMG NO WAY!! why would I say that? 1.) SOE is a established professional company who helps even games that are undeveloped [Vangard:SOH] build itself a tid bit.
2.) SOE's customer service is good, Other than one occurance they have never knocked me around and the one occurance recently where I was charged I spoke to someone this morning and was refunded. Thats one serious issue since 1999.
3.) People who hate SOE and like to spam forums about how bad SOE is will not participate in MMO's making the communities less childish.
4.) Every game that comes out will have a huge financial backing there fore cannot flop like Vangard did. (SOE did not develop VG nor are the PoTBS)
5.) Every MMO ever created would be on the access account
6.) When SOE buys a dying MMO like Matrix Online it re-establish's it with it's developers, advertisement, and Sony Access. Anyone who might never play matrix online if they have a access acount and are bored of EQ2 all they have to do is log in and play MxO. MxO would not be here right now if it wasn't for SOE. Crazy ?
7.) Last but not least... There would only be like 10 MMO's not 150 140 which are just garbage .....
Transaltion:
"I am a fanboi and I need attention, so I will provide the biggest flamebait I can possibly hope for with the intent of everyone paying attention to me and getting a 10 page thread! Thank you!"
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
LOL I guess I win this round... Geez NCSOFT just inked a deal with SONY I guess they agree that sony has the money and technology and want their assistance to make decent games.
"Sometimes people say stuff they don''t mean, but more often then that they don''t say things they do mean"
SOE's idea for fixing all of their pathetic games is to add disgusting raiding, as if it were some kind of feature content that the majority of players can't live without. They are clueless, money grubbing suits who don't deserve our loyalty or our subscriptions.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Comments
I already investigated enough research to know where I stand and why I stand by my claims also when this war went financial 10 pages back or so people brought up 1.5 million for lineage yet lineage is a Korean MMO meaning sure alot of US players might play II but not Lineage 1 ... and until you show me the US Lineage 1 and II market subascriber numbers you have nothing. The reference to ASIAAAAAAAA gaming market was that in ASIA since you obviously discovered a way of changing the words from china to asia to korea is that asia is 60% of the world .... america is more like 5-9% .... America as in the ACTUAL US not North AMerica ...
Other way you can validate your claims would be if you found legitimate documentation stating that many subscribers pay in British pounds which tends to be a bit more than the american dollar these days or even euros... now the american dollar to the Asian value out weighs it ... also the monthly fee is alot lower ... you can give me all the documents you want that says anything you want I have friends directly from china ... I believe they can offer me more facts then some www.blah.com/blah/blah/blah/yadayada.jsp . I think its almost time to make a new thread laying out all the facts pros and cons un-covered so this thread can die and maybe other people can get in on this discussion ... since ultimately it has changed from what the base was as EVERYONE acknowledged only title and typically would not even read into the conversation ....
Games Enjoyed: UO,EQ,AC,EQ2,COX,LOTRO
Games Played(-Above):WoW,MXO,GW(beta),RFO,ArchLord,V:SOH,Rappelz,Ryzom,DDO
Games I felt were a rip-off: DDO,ArchLord,V:SOH - all newer how ironic
Seriously, you can stop proving that you don't know what your talking about already. I have been an RO player for 3 years and in those 3 years I was interested in anything that had to do with Ragnarok Online.
More facts:
Fact 1: Ragnarok online counts accounts created, NOT active subscribers/players.
Fact 2: Gravity Corporation has been sued for lying about the growth of their subscribtion numbers.
Here is a part of the lawsuit. It doesn't show all details (its going to take me a bit longer to find the document that has all info in it, its an old report)
www.computing.co.uk/vnunet/news/2157364/online-game-company-accused
Sariah, do yourself a favor and don't go into debate with me
Torak just wanted #150 Its not even a debate over SOE having its hand in mmo's anymore now its just a opinion>fact war. I state facts they get over looked or downplayed other people state documents that are appearantly golden .... Thats life ...
I seriously doubt ragnorok was 13 million and 1 subscribers wrong which means even if they slightly inflated by 1-2 million or completely inflated by 10 million they would still have 1 million subscribers. Now stop thinking everything you post is right and every piece of information I post is invalid.... If the documents showing subscriptions is wrong about EQ makign it to 550,000 which it isn't then it would be wrong about Lineage having 1.5 million to. It cant go one direction without going the other. And saying the documents are a guestimate also leaves there room for belief that it could be higher than posted meaning maybe 600,000 US subscribers. So if your ready to role on this debate drop the your wrong im right act and prove yourself. You havnt proved anything yet other than we can both find documents on the internet... and we both no NOTHING ON THE WEB IS LIES... EVERYTHING IS REAL.... so the ammount of credit you give any information I find is the same amount I give to yours... one thing you forget the world is more worried about Paris Hiltons resturaunt cravings then troops dying in war.
Your not making any sense at this point, topics dead. Whatever point you were trying to make about SOE running everything you muddled up and lost.
I NEVER claimed that Lineage had a lot of US subscribers, I said that Lineage had more subscribers in asia.
It doesn't matter if Asia has more people, since many US games such as Everquest, Everquest 2 and Ultima Online are released in asia as well, and none of them even could even come close to Lineage's subscriber numbers, with the exception of World of Warcraft.
and please tell me you just didn't drag this conversation down through the dirt by saying "Well, I have friends from China!". So what? Are your friends in china a major in economics that study the growth of the MMO market in Asia? Are they experts on the MMORPG market? I doubt it.
By the way, Korean MMO's mostly don't use a monthly subscribtion. They usually use a pay per hour system, and Korean gamers actually pay more then us western gamers. There is no need to make another thread about this, I can sum up what happened in our debate.
1: You claimed that every Korean mmo has 1 million players to counter Lineage and Lineage 2's success arguement, Which is incorrect, not every Korean MMO has 1 million players, far from it.
2: I made a statement that Lineage and Lineage 2 are the only MMO's with 1 million subscribtions. You made an attempt to disprove that by posting an article that claimed Ragnarok Online had millions of subscribers. I pointed out that those are accounts created and that Gravity's numbers should be taken with a piece of salt because Gravity got sued for lying about their subscribtion growth and financial status.
3: For some reason you started to talk about Lineage's US subscribtion base, even though I never argued that Lineage subscribtion base in the US was big. You also mention that I should point you to Lineage and Lineage 2's subscribtion numbers, completely ignoring the fact that I already pointed you towards NCsoft's Financial reports on the official NCsoft site in a previous post.
Well, that would certainly stop my MMO addiction.
any1 who thinks SOE is a good company has not played enough sony owned games. They offer a low level of support and rarely bug test there products. If you start in a sony game the day it comes out you are basically paying to beta test a non fully functioning bug ridden project. Beta testing is great but not when your paying per month to do it.
I also not you ahvent listed every developer.
AHH for crying out loud this thread is still going? Honestly ...
Anyway I just wanted to point out that the original post never said games that were developed by sony, it was takling about games that are SOE owned (i.e. published) and that point was mainly becasue of Station Access accounts being able to span all the games that OP likes. So developers really dont matter to the subject of the thread.
So.......
FAIL
I'm afraid I didn't read all (ready: hardly any, as it's 5am here) replies, but I think the idea of one company having any kind of monopoly in the MMOG genre would be anything but good for the players. The last thing we need is for any publishers or developers to be able to sit back and be confident there's no real competition. Competition drives development, and should bring us even better games in the future.That said, it's good to see somebody point out the good sides of SOE. There's too many people who bash Sony because of a single incident or some other reason for having a grudge ("omg, it's popular and successful, so it must be crap"). No matter the arguments concerning money / profit, developers themselves are gamers at heart and deserve much better than the vocal minority gives them on a regular basis.
AHH for crying out loud this thread is still going? Honestly ...
Anyway I just wanted to point out that the original post never said games that were developed by sony, it was takling about games that are SOE owned (i.e. published) and that point was mainly becasue of Station Access accounts being able to span all the games that OP likes. So developers really dont matter to the subject of the thread.
So.......
FAIL
Actually it was about SOE having rights to every MMO if you would have read it.... That is the same as PoTBS, VG, MxO, Gods & Heroes they didnt make it but they have their hand in the cookie jar and that can be beneficial to the game IMO.... although the true point of this thread left the second somewhere between post 2-11 by the amount of flames by people who never even really read the starting post.
Games Enjoyed: UO,EQ,AC,EQ2,COX,LOTRO
Games Played(-Above):WoW,MXO,GW(beta),RFO,ArchLord,V:SOH,Rappelz,Ryzom,DDO
Games I felt were a rip-off: DDO,ArchLord,V:SOH - all newer how ironic
That said, it's good to see somebody point out the good sides of SOE. There's too many people who bash Sony because of a single incident or some other reason for having a grudge ("omg, it's popular and successful, so it must be crap"). No matter the arguments concerning money / profit, developers themselves are gamers at heart and deserve much better than the vocal minority gives them on a regular basis.
Your reply was in better contrast than 90% of them so your partial reading was obviously more than most of the people who posted their "opinions" on the subject...
Games Enjoyed: UO,EQ,AC,EQ2,COX,LOTRO
Games Played(-Above):WoW,MXO,GW(beta),RFO,ArchLord,V:SOH,Rappelz,Ryzom,DDO
Games I felt were a rip-off: DDO,ArchLord,V:SOH - all newer how ironic
SOE is having a tough time living down SWG, everytime someone praises them another jedi joins the darkside. I don't know if SWG will ever be fixed, but I think SOE has had the opportunity to gain alot more experience as a gaming company than anyone else. This in combonation with their copious amounts of capital says to me that these days if they are backing a game it is to the smaller game companies benefit. I have no complaints in the customer service department with these guys either, they have always been curtious and helpful, almost happy to do their jobs. In my dealings recently I have learned what it can be like to have to deal with a malicious soul in the cockpit of customer service.
I like SOE, and I think SWG could be something again if its not fixed allready, I am not sure because I have not followed the game in some time now.
mmmm yeeeah, thats greeat, a little to the left would be greeeat, ::sips coffee mug:::
WoW this is a stupid thread. Even if you like SOE, would you really want them controlling all MMOGS. I smell a troll.
"I am a fanboi and I need attention, so I will provide the biggest flamebait I can possibly hope for with the intent of everyone paying attention to me and getting a 10 page thread! Thank you!"
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
LOL I guess I win this round... Geez NCSOFT just inked a deal with SONY I guess they agree that sony has the money and technology and want their assistance to make decent games.
"Sometimes people say stuff they don''t mean, but more often then that they don''t say things they do mean"
soe is the worst company in the world and most people hate them.
Everything Happens For A Reason! "Shadowziel"
SOE's idea for fixing all of their pathetic games is to add disgusting raiding, as if it were some kind of feature content that the majority of players can't live without. They are clueless, money grubbing suits who don't deserve our loyalty or our subscriptions.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal