ohh FFS will you people please get a job. you unemployed basterds. and heres an idea, instead of playing these computer games why dont you play a game call REAL LIFE...
I concurr. Somone that wants a hardcore forced grouping grindfest with a ton (I mean a ton) of depth and content really ought to be playing FFXI and leave the rest of us that don't have that kind of spare time in peace in LoTRO.
On topic.... I am honestly not the biggest Turbine fan. I love LoTRO, but think that they pretty much screwed the pooch on DDO (at least at luanch), and the crap they pulled in AC II was a complete and utter travesty. That said, anyone that knows beans about MMOs knows that Turbine has a well deserved reputation for adding tons of quality free content to their games. You are seriously deluded if you think WoW or EQ II added as much free content in their first 6 months as LoTRO is getting. To claim that doesn't further the discussion, it just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
QFT
Forced grouping is old hat, Brad proved that last year. There will never be another forced grouping game from a major western developer or for that matter even a minor indie. As far as the WoW /EQII I never played WoW past the free 30 but in EQII they added a couple of small dungeons, no real "new" features or gameplay. This is my first experience with Turbine and so far I am impressed, they beat the shit out of SOE but that is not surprising..
Well... I don't think it's correct to say it's "old hat". There are still games out there doing quite well with a party-centric setup. FFXI being one of them. It's merely a different play-style for those who enjoy it. Many of the people I know who play FFXI, and other party-centric games don't enjoy the newer "solo friendly" games. If you ask them, they'll tell you "what's the point of playing a multiplayer game if you just want to play solo?" And for them, a party-centric game is what they find most enjoyable. Nothing wrong with that.
I'm somewhere in the middle.. I love a good party-centric game where group dynamics and strategy actually mean something. I'm actually kinda spoiled by it to the point that grouping in most other MMOs I play just feel like brute-force hack-n-slash; very uninteresting. On the other hand, sometimes I just feel like jumping into a game where I can run a few missions, do some hunting or whatever, and log off with no significant time commitment. So, I usually have two MMOs going at once... FFXI and something else as a counterpart; right now that's LoTRO.
Also have to keep in mind that when people say "forced grouping", it puts a negative connotation on something that is part of the central game design. In FFXI, they're not arbitrarily "forcing" people to group for the sake of doing so. The game's battle system, many missions and other tasks are based around party dynamics, class/job types, etc.
This is another topic that I see alot... the whole thing of "forced grouping" being a bad thing. It's another example of people criticizing something for being exactly what it's designed to be, or the whole "I don't like it, so there must be something wrong with it" mentality."
It's not "wrong". It's just a different type of play that attracts a different crowd. Again... there's nothing wrong with that. That's why there are options - so everyone can find something they can enjoy.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You just made my point - these content updates are NORMAL for pay to play games. The OP is offering this up as some wildly unique altruistic action by Turbine when, in fact, they are doing what pay to play games do in providing content to keep people paying to play.
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
You just made my point - these content updates are NORMAL for pay to play games. The OP is offering this up as some wildly unique altruistic action by Turbine when, in fact, they are doing what pay to play games do in providing content to keep people paying to play.
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You just made my point - these content updates are NORMAL for pay to play games. The OP is offering this up as some wildly unique altruistic action by Turbine when, in fact, they are doing what pay to play games do in providing content to keep people paying to play.
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
ok care to tell me what should be in game at release?
You just made my point - these content updates are NORMAL for pay to play games. The OP is offering this up as some wildly unique altruistic action by Turbine when, in fact, they are doing what pay to play games do in providing content to keep people paying to play.
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
ok care to tell me what should be in game at release?
Umm.. I think you might have misunderstood my post? Or was that not targeted at me? I wasn't knocking Turbine or the game... I think it launched just fine. Like I said in an earlier post, it's keeping me entertained, even without the content updates (I haven' done anything in the Evendim area yet).
I was basically saying not to expect those like AgtSmith or certain other nay-sayers to give much, if any, credit to Turbine for having the successful/smooth release they did; they'll always find some way to try and turn a positive into a negative. I used for an example, how when someone stated that it's cool that Turbine is consistent in releasing the free content updates, one of the 'nay-sayers' put a negative spin on it, stating that the updates were really just "missing content" that should have been in at release.
Not knocking the game at all
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You just made my point - these content updates are NORMAL for pay to play games. The OP is offering this up as some wildly unique altruistic action by Turbine when, in fact, they are doing what pay to play games do in providing content to keep people paying to play.
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
I have allways credited turbine for not only a good launch, but for a well made game 9uniquely so in this time of rushed and buggy games). However, it is no slam and no secret that LotRO shipped short on the mid and especially high end content. Most anyone who has played the game at or around launch would acknowledge this and turbine themselves have said as much many times. the content provided is a good thing, but the characterization of it is notably unusual or free or otherwise a gift of sorts is just flawed.
You just made my point - these content updates are NORMAL for pay to play games. The OP is offering this up as some wildly unique altruistic action by Turbine when, in fact, they are doing what pay to play games do in providing content to keep people paying to play.
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
I have allways credited turbine for not only a good launch, but for a well made game 9uniquely so in this time of rushed and buggy games). However, it is no slam and no secret that LotRO shipped short on the mid and especially high end content. Most anyone who has played the game at or around launch would acknowledge this and turbine themselves have said as much many times. the content provided is a good thing, but the characterization of it is notably unusual or free or otherwise a gift of sorts is just flawed.
Hmm.. okay, so now we have a quandry..
First you say that it's been noted many times that LoTRO launched, undeniably, with a "lack of content".
Then, in the last post, you modified it to say that it launched with "a lack of high end content" and that Turbine said so themselves."
Now... you've evolved it once more to it shipping "short on mid and especially high end content". and that Turbine has said this many times.
I believe this could be regarded as the "evolving talking point". The next natural evolution will be that Turbine has said many times that the game launched lacking, low, mid and high end content... and there aren't as many trees as they'd wanted, so they're adding them in too.
Do me a favor. Stop trying to paraphrase, or embellish.. or whatever it is you're doing. Find the actual source of that comment - by Turbine - and copy and paste it here unmodified, just so we get the actual quote from the horse's mouth, or don't attempt to cite them at all. Because, with each evolution of the statement, I'm doubting your ability to accurately quote anyone more and more.
Second, it's been explained, a few times now, by what people mean when they say "free content updates" now. Your inability to comprehend it does not change that. Even magazines and website reviews will refer to any content updates that do not require an additional, separate purchase as "free updates". Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? What's the logical alternative to you? Provide new content and not charge subscribers that month, so it's "really free"? Are you gonna take your Semantic Crusade to their doorstep, too? Beyond that, I think it's safe to say that Turbine's consistent free - yes *free* - updates since AC1, through AC2, DnDO and now LoTRO is a rarity in the industry, where other companies often have to delay even an occasional update.
And, you still are avoiding my very direct question to you...
Why do you care so much about what people think or say about this game? How does anyone's opinion about a game you have no interest in playing affect you at all, much less to the point that you insist on coming to the forums and playing Semantic Police with them? Can you please give me a direct answer to that? Short of that, I'm still convinced you actually have a subscription.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Turbine is usually great about adding the content with patches and what not and that shows in their previous games (especially Asheron's call). But they have lost their ability of creativity and originality.
Well, new content releases are great, and player housing is a good addition. As long as the new content isn't more of the same (a la WOW and TBC) then I'll applaud them.
But if all you get is more levels, more areas to explore and more quests to grind through, no thanks, not the game for me (though others might want this I'll grant)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Turbine is usually great about adding the content with patches and what not and that shows in their previous games (especially Asheron's call). But they have lost their ability of creativity and originality.
Are you kidding me?
Have you even checked out book X?
Let me tell you how un-original they are.
In Anumminas there is a war going on, its persistent..It's happening if you are in the zone or not. There are three 'keeps' in Anuminas, each of these you can 'flip' They can be controlled by the Dunidain, or the Anigrim.
The beautiful, and creative thing about this, is they will 'flip' even if nobody is in the area...NPC's invading camps and keeps with waves of npc mobs, fighting a war.
You can help the rangers, and be rewarded for control of the keeps.
A persistent battle, a battle between npc's......What other game does that?
Originally posted by WSIMike Hmm.. okay, so now we have a quandry.. First you say that it's been noted many times that LoTRO launched, undeniably, with a "lack of content". Then, in the last post, you modified it to say that it launched with "a lack of high end content" and that Turbine said so themselves." Now... you've evolved it once more to it shipping "short on mid and especially high end content". and that Turbine has said this many times. I believe this could be regarded as the "evolving talking point". The next natural evolution will be that Turbine has said many times that the game launched lacking, low, mid and high end content... and there aren't as many trees as they'd wanted, so they're adding them in too. Do me a favor. Stop trying to paraphrase, or embellish.. or whatever it is you're doing. Find the actual source of that comment - by Turbine - and copy and paste it here unmodified, just so we get the actual quote from the horse's mouth, or don't attempt to cite them at all. Because, with each evolution of the statement, I'm doubting your ability to accurately quote anyone more and more. Second, it's been explained, a few times now, by what people mean when they say "free content updates" now. Your inability to comprehend it does not change that. Even magazines and website reviews will refer to any content updates that do not require an additional, separate purchase as "free updates". Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? What's the logical alternative to you? Provide new content and not charge subscribers that month, so it's "really free"? Are you gonna take your Semantic Crusade to their doorstep, too? Beyond that, I think it's safe to say that Turbine's consistent free - yes *free* - updates since AC1, through AC2, DnDO and now LoTRO is a rarity in the industry, where other companies often have to delay even an occasional update. And, you still are avoiding my very direct question to you... Why do you care so much about what people think or say about this game? How does anyone's opinion about a game you have no interest in playing affect you at all, much less to the point that you insist on coming to the forums and playing Semantic Police with them? Can you please give me a direct answer to that? Short of that, I'm still convinced you actually have a subscription.
You can believe what you want but I never even bought the retail box, after 13 or 14 days in the pre-order I returned it and cancelled as I got bored. It wasn't that the game stunk, it just wasn't anything interesting or new even if it was well made (I also hated how linear it was and how there was so little uniqueness to characters). Are you kidding on that BS you typed about starting with lack of content and then high end nad then saying mid to high end? My god you have serious emotional issues for crying out loud. I mean I mentioned something general and later worded it more specifically, get a life man. As for the rest - this site is MMORPG.com - it isn't lotroCompliments.com. If you have trouble with a site where people discuss all sorts of things about all sorts of MMO games then I suggest you quit visiting. Go to the LotRO forums, while not 100% complimentary posts there things are a bit more friendly as it is the official boards - on a site like this you will get allot more comments of a positive and negative nature.
LotRO, launched incomplete and I say that as the DEVs announced BEFORE launch a number of features that would not make live until after release. Was the game unfinished, I didn't say that. Was it short on content, just about anyone being fair would say yes and since Turbine already announced even before launch the much of the coming content (at least in broad terms) I think it is fair to say they saw it as missing stuff as well. As I recall, most of the missing stuff was high end (perhaps med end as well), not uncommon really as it takes players a bit to get to the high end stuff so DEVs usually focus on low end stuff for a good release. How anyone can argue this is beyond me but I suppose I should never underestimate the power of fanboys to just absolutely deny anything that isn't glowing praise of their game. SoE launched SWG early, left out mounts and vehicles and a number of other things - a couple months later the put it in, a number of games do this. PotBS has a number of mechanics and elements that are not going to make launch but will be added in once live - it is the nature of pay to play games. Particuarly pay to play MMOs that are linear and quest based. That being said, it is a Turbine trademark to add content post launch. Some might say (given DDO and LotRO) they ship things polished low end and add in the end game or high end stuff in live but that is really semantics. Point is, it is not that uncommon to have content added in MMOs and not against Turbine's modus operandi. It certainly is not a news flash and certainly is not free.
You seriously want to argue here that LotRO shipped in the box with all the content it needed to go from launch through the year? Or through the summer even? Perhaps for the casual (the biggest draw of the game admittingly) but from before launch the more active players where clamouring about content all over the Turbine site, and turbine responded regularly that higher end stuff would follow after launch. This is not an insult, not a slam, it is just what happened - no biggy. Why would you argue these things? I mean when someone comes here and makes Turbine out to be unique amoung developers for giving out all this FREE stuff I will comment. The reality is they are just completing commitments made from before launch and adding in the content to attract and keep PAYING subscribers for thier pay to play game. Turbine is FACTUALLY not giving anything away and while I said in my original comment here it is notable they are doing this (and traditionally do so) it is not accurate to say as the OP said they are giving away free stuff as if expansion packs are getting sent to subscribers, gratis.
Turbine can add all the content they want and I will not give a rats ass until they make the player mechanics more interesting than a paralyzed 90 year old on ice skates.
Turbine is usually great about adding the content with patches and what not and that shows in their previous games (especially Asheron's call). But they have lost their ability of creativity and originality.
Are you kidding me?
Have you even checked out book X?
Let me tell you how un-original they are.
In Anumminas there is a war going on, its persistent..It's happening if you are in the zone or not. There are three 'keeps' in Anuminas, each of these you can 'flip' They can be controlled by the Dunidain, or the Anigrim. The beautiful, and creative thing about this, is they will 'flip' even if nobody is in the area...NPC's invading camps and keeps with waves of npc mobs, fighting a war.
You can help the rangers, and be rewarded for control of the keeps.
A persistent battle, a battle between npc's......What other game does that?
Sounds like DOTA, oh and also WoW concept that has been roaming around for ages. EQ 2, WoW, LOTRO. All similar games, all cookie cutter. Asian games have their cookie cutter style now westerners have the DAOC style.
LOTRO is not original. Asheron's call was original, one of the first games that had any type of twitch combat that took player skill, non of this style of gaming, their just trying to gain more $$$.
Turbine can add all the content they want and I will not give a rats ass until they make the player mechanics more interesting than a paralyzed 90 year old on ice skates.
BTW take some notes this guy might actaully know something, I agree SKURK81
Originally posted by WSIMike Hmm.. okay, so now we have a quandry.. First you say that it's been noted many times that LoTRO launched, undeniably, with a "lack of content". Then, in the last post, you modified it to say that it launched with "a lack of high end content" and that Turbine said so themselves." Now... you've evolved it once more to it shipping "short on mid and especially high end content". and that Turbine has said this many times. I believe this could be regarded as the "evolving talking point". The next natural evolution will be that Turbine has said many times that the game launched lacking, low, mid and high end content... and there aren't as many trees as they'd wanted, so they're adding them in too. Do me a favor. Stop trying to paraphrase, or embellish.. or whatever it is you're doing. Find the actual source of that comment - by Turbine - and copy and paste it here unmodified, just so we get the actual quote from the horse's mouth, or don't attempt to cite them at all. Because, with each evolution of the statement, I'm doubting your ability to accurately quote anyone more and more. Second, it's been explained, a few times now, by what people mean when they say "free content updates" now. Your inability to comprehend it does not change that. Even magazines and website reviews will refer to any content updates that do not require an additional, separate purchase as "free updates". Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? What's the logical alternative to you? Provide new content and not charge subscribers that month, so it's "really free"? Are you gonna take your Semantic Crusade to their doorstep, too? Beyond that, I think it's safe to say that Turbine's consistent free - yes *free* - updates since AC1, through AC2, DnDO and now LoTRO is a rarity in the industry, where other companies often have to delay even an occasional update. And, you still are avoiding my very direct question to you... Why do you care so much about what people think or say about this game? How does anyone's opinion about a game you have no interest in playing affect you at all, much less to the point that you insist on coming to the forums and playing Semantic Police with them? Can you please give me a direct answer to that? Short of that, I'm still convinced you actually have a subscription.
You can believe what you want but I never even bought the retail box, after 13 or 14 days in the pre-order I returned it and cancelled as I got bored.
Are you kidding on that BS you typed about starting with lack of content and then high end nad then saying mid to high end? My god you have serious emotional issues for crying out loud.
Calling you out on verifiable inconsistencies in your argument means I have emotional issues? That's quite the leap of logic. Or a lapse of it, at least. I called you out on them because you are using them as ammo to support your side of whatever you want to call this... As such, changing the details up from one post to another makes you look like you don't know what the hell you're talking about. And, by the by, you once again altered that point... Now Turbine, *perhaps*, have mentioned mid-level content as part of what was missing. In the last post, there was no "perhaps". They either said it or they didn't. You either remember it or you don't. One or the other.
Seriously... I'm not arguing that - whatever the actual facts are - are irrelevant or "wrong". I am pointing out, however, that if you can't get the details straight, don't use them to try and prove a point. That's not an "emotional issue". That's plain common sense.
As for the rest - this site is MMORPG.com - it isn't lotroCompliments.com. If you have trouble with a site where people discuss all sorts of things about all sorts of MMO games then I suggest you quit visiting. Go to the LotRO forums, while not 100% complimentary posts there things are a bit more friendly as it is the official boards - on a site like this you will get allot more comments of a positive and negative nature.
Thank you for the lesson. I have no problem with negative opinions of a game. I have expressed them myself, about this game and others. The difference is, I'm actually playing the games I comment on and I try to debate things that actually have some point to them - you know... like how well is Tolkien's lore represented in the game, how is the game engine's performance. How are the quests, and so forth. I don't linger in forums for games I claim to have no interest in, obsessing over pointless details, such as the meaning of the word "free", or spending 26+ pages debating in circles about whether the game is a success or not based on unverifiable numbers.
You seriously want to argue here that LotRO shipped in the box with all the content it needed to go from launch through the year? Or through the summer even?
Nope.. In fact, I've never even suggested such a thing. You can barely keep your own "facts" straight. You really have no business presuming to speak for me. But now that you mention it... where the hell did you pull that from anyway? Has the phantom LoTRO fanboy army who told you the game would have WoW-like numbers been whispering things in your ear while you sleep or something?
Perhaps for the casual (the biggest draw of the game admittingly) but from before launch the more active players where clamouring about content all over the Turbine site, and turbine responded regularly that higher end stuff would follow after launch. This is not an insult, not a slam, it is just what happened - no biggy. Why would you argue these things? I mean when someone comes here and makes Turbine out to be unique amoung developers for giving out all this FREE stuff I will comment. The reality is they are just completing commitments made from before launch and adding in the content to attract and keep PAYING subscribers for thier pay to play game. Turbine is FACTUALLY not giving anything away and while I said in my original comment here it is notable they are doing this (and traditionally do so) it is not accurate to say as the OP said they are giving away free stuff as if expansion packs are getting sent to subscribers, gratis.
Sure... higher end stuff, along with a whole lot of other content, to be delivered - at no extra charge on a regular basis. I know what you're going to say "But that content was missing at launch!! It's not new content! You have emotional issues!" However... can you tell me, definitively exactly where that "missing content" you speak of cuts off? Can you say with any degree of certainty - and without changing details from one post to the next - that Turbine haven't already rolled out all they intended to at launch? Can you point to a specific outline from them of exactly *what* content in their updates was intended for launch and what is in fact new?
Now before you fly off on some zany tangent that I'm claiming "the game launched with enough content to last 'til 2010" - I'm not. I'm just requesting some specific references to support what you're saying here. That's hardly an unfair request, assuming you're trying to make a real point here and not just theorizing wildly, pulling information out of the thin air, or spinning details to support your point-of-view.
As for the OP... What he's saying is factually correct. They are providing two large content updates over the course of 4 months. This is true. They're updates, and they have alot of new content. There's no additional purchase; no one's gonna have to go to their local GameStop for a retail box, or enter their CC# online somewhere to download it... Yet it's new content added on to what subscribers are already paying for anyway. Soo... yeah, I guess that makes them free updates. There really is nothing mystical about it. No smoke and mirrors or sleight of hand. It is what it is. In any website blurb or article I could find in about 9 or 10 pages of search results on Google (because I like to actually verify my statements before I make them) - some of them being very high profile websites - they all acknowledged them as free content updates. Or are you going to now tell me that they're all wrong now?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Turbine can add all the content they want and I will not give a rats ass until they make the player mechanics more interesting than a paralyzed 90 year old on ice skates.
BTW take some notes this guy might actaully know something, I agree SKURK81
lol.. "I agree with him, therefor he might actually know something"
Yeah... there's a comment I'd place alot of stock in.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well you look at all these games that bring in the WASD, yet still require a point and click to get anything done. DAOC, SWG, WoW, EQ2, LOTRO. NOT TO MENTION the fact that they all have just the skill hotkeys that you MUST use to get anything done.
You take all these people that are playing allt hese games and saying THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!!! Although it was the same as the last 3 games you tried out. LOTRO fan bois are just playing a dumbed down version of WoW w/different skins.
these games are jsut going backwards, with teh exception of SWG, taking instances as the main way of hunting and even PVPing not to mention these games use the "Homing missile" style combat where you cant even dodge attacks unless a % says so.
And yes I did agree with skurk81, and i do believe hes able to see all these games are the same and all these games are starting to just mold together and that we need to break the mold and gain something more than just stay in range and hit 1 and 3. Its rediculous, i wanna hear what you gotta say WSIMike i wanna know what you know about.
...It is a quest based game, without new quests there is no reason for even a fan to pay for a subscription so of course the content updates are a paid part of the subscription.
Actually there is: crafting and farming: there's definitely a certain percentage of the player population who are very much into those things (not counting gold farmers here, just people who enjoy the in-game crafting and farming, selling and trading stuff at the AH and such) and who don't really care about quests or storylines, as a matter of fact, a vocal minority are very upset that they won't be able to go to Angmar anymore when they're low level (a change coming up in book 10) and be lvl 5 grandmasters ..their reaction is "what, now we have to level up and do quests before we can craft higher-level items!?" .
As a matter of fact, I've recently found out myself that this can be quite an enjoyable aspect of the game: atm digging up chucks of dwarf-iron ore when I find them in Angmar, going back to Thorin's Gate and buying some coal, crafting some dwarf-steel ingots and then selling it at the Auction Hall. I enjoy setting a low asking price and then watch as people start to bid for what I just crafted, and eventually returning me some cash in return to pay for item repairs. All in good fun, and a nice break from high-level questing.
And so my point (if I have one) that Turbine have certainly managed to create a compelling experience in that area for a certain percent of the player base (even me). Once again, not counting gold farmers and not really those who just collect large amount of stuff and try to sell it off for 3 gold a piece either, just the people who are really into and enjoy the crafting, farming and trading aspects of the game.
Aside from all that there is course things like deed farming, collecting pages for your legendary books and probably other things a well that I've forgotten to remember , so no it's not all about constantly adding new quests to keep people subscribing. Case closed
they added rep grinding blaaa it gets more like warcrap with each patch.
and while it is not something I want to do for hours on end , it is a great way to get some exp and a work my way toward great reward in those 30 min or so before dinnner or work.
Well you look at all these games that bring in the WASD, yet still require a point and click to get anything done. DAOC, SWG, WoW, EQ2, LOTRO. NOT TO MENTION the fact that they all have just the skill hotkeys that you MUST use to get anything done.
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Right... because that setup has proven to be the most intuitive and comfortable for the largest number of players on the whole, enough to make it a standard setup for "Western style" MMOs. I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. The same can be said for RTSs, or FPSs... or many RPGs which all also share similar control setups. When you look at games where the devs tried to implement a different control scheme, player reaction is very often something along the lines of "the controls are awful! Why isn't there WASD?" So, it's actually very smart for devs to maintain a familiar control setup - it allows players to get into actually playing the game right off the bat, instead of possibly having to sit for an hour just trying to figure out the controls. Why fix it if it isn't broken?
Look at what happened with the gamepad for the XBox... Microsoft released the first version, thinking they were releasing something innovative on the gaming public and were met with cries of "WTF is this?!". The controller they released, dubbed "The Duke", was too large for many people, and the buttons were difficult to reach. People hated it. So, Microsoft ended up replacing it with the smaller Japanese version. Yet, Sony has kept the same basic gamepad design since PS1, and no one complains... Why do you think that is?
It also boils down to what players are used to. I know people who are fully comfortable with the WASD setup who've tried games like Lineage 2 or Archlord and absolutely hate it. Conversely, I have a couple friends who were introduced to MMOs with Lineage 2 and so think any control setup that isn't click-to-move is screwed up and unintuitive. So it's also very subjective.
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You take all these people that are playing allt hese games and saying THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!!! Although it was the same as the last 3 games you tried out. LOTRO fan bois are just playing a dumbed down version of WoW w/different skins.
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Well, first, everyone takes something different from a game - or anything for that matter. It might be "just another clone" to you or others, but to some it's familiar but different enough from anything else they've played that they can enjoy it as a fresh experience. The whole "fanbois" comment was not only gratuitous, presumptuous and, frankly, absurd, it does a great job of demonstrating your ignorance. You don't like the game, fine. But to characterize people who enjoy the game as a "fanboi" simply because you have issues with it... Well, that's just sad.
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these games are jsut going backwards, with teh exception of SWG, taking instances as the main way of hunting and even PVPing not to mention these games use the "Homing missile" style combat where you cant even dodge attacks unless a % says so.
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So wait... you talk about LoTRO being "dumbed down"... and then you cite SWG as an exception to games "going backwards"? And you typed that with a straight face? Are you aware that what SOE did to SWG is pretty much universally considered the biggest blunder ever in a MMO - to the point that even SOE themselves admits they screwed up? Taking a system with 32 combinable professions the player can mix and match into any unique combo they choose and reducing it down to 9 specific archetypes, making them a copy of everyone else, isn't "dumbing down" or "going backwards"? What would you call it, positive progress? I really hope any present SWG vets weren't drinking anything when they read that comment.
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And yes I did agree with skurk81, and i do believe hes able to see all these games are the same and all these games are starting to just mold together and that we need to break the mold and gain something more than just stay in range and hit 1 and 3. Its rediculous, i wanna hear what you gotta say WSIMike i wanna know what you know about.
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Well, first I wonder if your buddy skurk has similarly strong feelings about the list of games you gave at the beginning of this post? You know... the ones you said all have the same control setup, going all the way back to DAoC? Or is he conveniently only taking issue with LoTRO because it's the popular whipping-boy of the moment? Further, do either of you have any ideas of a better setup that you'd be willing to risk millions in the R&D of? Or, are you and he just bitching because no one's made a system that caters specifically to you?
As for you wanting to hear "what I know"... Well..
For starters, I know I literally laughed out loud when I read that comment. I mean... I've seen plenty of posturing before in forums... but wow. That was on a whole other level.
I think I've pretty much covered "what I know" in this post. However, I will say that everyone has their own preferences and things they like and don't like. That you, or skurk or anyone else decides they don't like it - for whatever reason - does not render the product "flawed". Nor does it make the people who do like it "fanbois". It simply means they like it... and you don't. No need to psycho-analyze why, or label it, or read into it any more than that.
I also know that so boldly stating such a thing, as you did in this post with the whole "dumbed down WoW" comment not only proves your absolute ignorance in that regard, it underscores it.
And now you know "what I know".
Satisfied?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Always enjoy reading your posts... they're quite level headed compared to most of the posts on this site.
Just a comment:
I know you probably know this, but really... when dealing with the majority of the members of this site, no matter how much you try to rationalize or explain things to them, they're still never going to get the idea... TO EACH THEIR OWN.
Many people on this site actually get off by flaming, bitching and complaining about any and everything they possibly can. Why? I don't know. It seems to be the flavor of the past couple of months is for people to flame games they don't like or don't want to like. Unless the game is tailored completely to what they look for in a game, their mission is to flame the game to hell, regardless of truthfulness or logic.
It's something I still don't understand to this day. I mean, if I don't enjoy a game, I usually will make a post on the game boards about why I don't like it and leave it at that and move on to another game. Why people get stuck in this "I hate this game, it's lacking content, depth, originality, not 3rd generation, wow clone, carebear" mode, and post it over and over again...I will never understand. If you don't like the game, send feedback to the game developers, post a message or two about why you didn't like it along with suggestions of how to better the game and MOVE ON.
Do people seriously think they will stop people from playing a game because they flame it? Does it boost someone's ego to go around and constantly posting negative things about a game that many people obviously enjoy? What good does it do to repeat the same complaints, post after post after post? Obviously the game wasn't your cup of tea people.. MOVE ON TO ANOTHER GAME... and have fun!
I'm not sure what the answer is... but I for one now visit and post on this site less and less. The trolling has become so predictable, it's actually boring to read now. Vanguard was the first to get hit with trolling (which it really did deserve), LOTRO has been a victim of it since it's release and if you look at AOC and WAR, they're getting their share now too.
It's too bad people just don't leave a game be for others to enjoy and go find a game they like to play themselves.
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
first was book 9 in june. Book 10 coming next monday
No other game company out there gives to their costumers a MAJOR free content update every 2 months, they already announce book 11 for october forums.lotro.com/showthread.php
That's not exact... WWIIOnline had all MAJOR free content updates since 2001 and they usually did it each 2 months too. Will be great news if LOTR also keeps 6 years of free Major content updates... they should be free until year 2013, to be on pair with WWIIOnline
Comments
hmmmm, does somebody need a hug?
Oh my god it is amazing to me the rationalization slambois go through in order to try and find a flaw in the object of their dislike.
I miss DAoC
QFTForced grouping is old hat, Brad proved that last year. There will never be another forced grouping game from a major western developer or for that matter even a minor indie. As far as the WoW /EQII I never played WoW past the free 30 but in EQII they added a couple of small dungeons, no real "new" features or gameplay. This is my first experience with Turbine and so far I am impressed, they beat the shit out of SOE but that is not surprising..
Well... I don't think it's correct to say it's "old hat". There are still games out there doing quite well with a party-centric setup. FFXI being one of them. It's merely a different play-style for those who enjoy it. Many of the people I know who play FFXI, and other party-centric games don't enjoy the newer "solo friendly" games. If you ask them, they'll tell you "what's the point of playing a multiplayer game if you just want to play solo?" And for them, a party-centric game is what they find most enjoyable. Nothing wrong with that.
I'm somewhere in the middle.. I love a good party-centric game where group dynamics and strategy actually mean something. I'm actually kinda spoiled by it to the point that grouping in most other MMOs I play just feel like brute-force hack-n-slash; very uninteresting. On the other hand, sometimes I just feel like jumping into a game where I can run a few missions, do some hunting or whatever, and log off with no significant time commitment. So, I usually have two MMOs going at once... FFXI and something else as a counterpart; right now that's LoTRO.
Also have to keep in mind that when people say "forced grouping", it puts a negative connotation on something that is part of the central game design. In FFXI, they're not arbitrarily "forcing" people to group for the sake of doing so. The game's battle system, many missions and other tasks are based around party dynamics, class/job types, etc.
This is another topic that I see alot... the whole thing of "forced grouping" being a bad thing. It's another example of people criticizing something for being exactly what it's designed to be, or the whole "I don't like it, so there must be something wrong with it" mentality."
It's not "wrong". It's just a different type of play that attracts a different crowd. Again... there's nothing wrong with that. That's why there are options - so everyone can find something they can enjoy.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
ok care to tell me what should be in game at release?
First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
ok care to tell me what should be in game at release?
Umm.. I think you might have misunderstood my post? Or was that not targeted at me? I wasn't knocking Turbine or the game... I think it launched just fine. Like I said in an earlier post, it's keeping me entertained, even without the content updates (I haven' done anything in the Evendim area yet).
I was basically saying not to expect those like AgtSmith or certain other nay-sayers to give much, if any, credit to Turbine for having the successful/smooth release they did; they'll always find some way to try and turn a positive into a negative. I used for an example, how when someone stated that it's cool that Turbine is consistent in releasing the free content updates, one of the 'nay-sayers' put a negative spin on it, stating that the updates were really just "missing content" that should have been in at release.
Not knocking the game at all
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
I have allways credited turbine for not only a good launch, but for a well made game 9uniquely so in this time of rushed and buggy games). However, it is no slam and no secret that LotRO shipped short on the mid and especially high end content. Most anyone who has played the game at or around launch would acknowledge this and turbine themselves have said as much many times. the content provided is a good thing, but the characterization of it is notably unusual or free or otherwise a gift of sorts is just flawed.
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First of all, two major content updates so quickly after release is NOT normal for most mmorpgs. Many mmorpgs are still trying to fix bugs and get the game to run right several months after release, much less issuing major new content additions. LotRO's early track record is clearly among the very best of any mmorpg in that respect. Their smooth release probably helped a lot in getting out new content because they dont need to worry so much about the emergency fixes (cough *Vanguard* cough).Secondly, it goes without saying they are doing this for business reasons. Turbine isnt a charity, they are a business, and like any smart business they want to retain customers. That being said, they could do two things at this point: 1) quickly release new free content, or 2) not release new free content. Of those two choices, 1) is a helluva lot better than 2). Note that they could have saved the additional content from these first few releases and just issued a pay expansion after 6 or 9 months, but they didnt, they added new material for free. Sure, they had business reasons for doing so, but its still a GOOD thing!
Excellent points... all.
Of course, don't expect too much credit to be given to Turbine for actually having a smooth launch in a genre that's becoming more and more synonymous with buggy, pre-mature roll-outs. Anything beyond a disingenuous "nod", under the pretense of seeming "not completely biased", might actually require them to acknowledge that Turbine did something right, much less well That would, of course, undermine their whole agenda here.
Just as they try to dismiss/downplay Turbine's consistent and substantial content updates by framing them as "things that should have been in-game at launch", they'll find something to counter or disqualify the fact that Turbine has accomplished what too few developers manage to, by having such a successful launch.
I have allways credited turbine for not only a good launch, but for a well made game 9uniquely so in this time of rushed and buggy games). However, it is no slam and no secret that LotRO shipped short on the mid and especially high end content. Most anyone who has played the game at or around launch would acknowledge this and turbine themselves have said as much many times. the content provided is a good thing, but the characterization of it is notably unusual or free or otherwise a gift of sorts is just flawed.
Hmm.. okay, so now we have a quandry..
First you say that it's been noted many times that LoTRO launched, undeniably, with a "lack of content".
Then, in the last post, you modified it to say that it launched with "a lack of high end content" and that Turbine said so themselves."
Now... you've evolved it once more to it shipping "short on mid and especially high end content". and that Turbine has said this many times.
I believe this could be regarded as the "evolving talking point". The next natural evolution will be that Turbine has said many times that the game launched lacking, low, mid and high end content... and there aren't as many trees as they'd wanted, so they're adding them in too.
Do me a favor. Stop trying to paraphrase, or embellish.. or whatever it is you're doing. Find the actual source of that comment - by Turbine - and copy and paste it here unmodified, just so we get the actual quote from the horse's mouth, or don't attempt to cite them at all. Because, with each evolution of the statement, I'm doubting your ability to accurately quote anyone more and more.
Second, it's been explained, a few times now, by what people mean when they say "free content updates" now. Your inability to comprehend it does not change that. Even magazines and website reviews will refer to any content updates that do not require an additional, separate purchase as "free updates". Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? What's the logical alternative to you? Provide new content and not charge subscribers that month, so it's "really free"? Are you gonna take your Semantic Crusade to their doorstep, too? Beyond that, I think it's safe to say that Turbine's consistent free - yes *free* - updates since AC1, through AC2, DnDO and now LoTRO is a rarity in the industry, where other companies often have to delay even an occasional update.
And, you still are avoiding my very direct question to you...
Why do you care so much about what people think or say about this game? How does anyone's opinion about a game you have no interest in playing affect you at all, much less to the point that you insist on coming to the forums and playing Semantic Police with them? Can you please give me a direct answer to that? Short of that, I'm still convinced you actually have a subscription.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Turbine is usually great about adding the content with patches and what not and that shows in their previous games (especially Asheron's call). But they have lost their ability of creativity and originality.
Well, new content releases are great, and player housing is a good addition. As long as the new content isn't more of the same (a la WOW and TBC) then I'll applaud them.
But if all you get is more levels, more areas to explore and more quests to grind through, no thanks, not the game for me (though others might want this I'll grant)
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Turbine is usually great about adding the content with patches and what not and that shows in their previous games (especially Asheron's call). But they have lost their ability of creativity and originality.
Are you kidding me?
Have you even checked out book X?
Let me tell you how un-original they are.
In Anumminas there is a war going on, its persistent..It's happening if you are in the zone or not. There are three 'keeps' in Anuminas, each of these you can 'flip' They can be controlled by the Dunidain, or the Anigrim.
The beautiful, and creative thing about this, is they will 'flip' even if nobody is in the area...NPC's invading camps and keeps with waves of npc mobs, fighting a war.
You can help the rangers, and be rewarded for control of the keeps.
A persistent battle, a battle between npc's......What other game does that?
You can believe what you want but I never even bought the retail box, after 13 or 14 days in the pre-order I returned it and cancelled as I got bored. It wasn't that the game stunk, it just wasn't anything interesting or new even if it was well made (I also hated how linear it was and how there was so little uniqueness to characters). Are you kidding on that BS you typed about starting with lack of content and then high end nad then saying mid to high end? My god you have serious emotional issues for crying out loud. I mean I mentioned something general and later worded it more specifically, get a life man. As for the rest - this site is MMORPG.com - it isn't lotroCompliments.com. If you have trouble with a site where people discuss all sorts of things about all sorts of MMO games then I suggest you quit visiting. Go to the LotRO forums, while not 100% complimentary posts there things are a bit more friendly as it is the official boards - on a site like this you will get allot more comments of a positive and negative nature.
LotRO, launched incomplete and I say that as the DEVs announced BEFORE launch a number of features that would not make live until after release. Was the game unfinished, I didn't say that. Was it short on content, just about anyone being fair would say yes and since Turbine already announced even before launch the much of the coming content (at least in broad terms) I think it is fair to say they saw it as missing stuff as well. As I recall, most of the missing stuff was high end (perhaps med end as well), not uncommon really as it takes players a bit to get to the high end stuff so DEVs usually focus on low end stuff for a good release. How anyone can argue this is beyond me but I suppose I should never underestimate the power of fanboys to just absolutely deny anything that isn't glowing praise of their game. SoE launched SWG early, left out mounts and vehicles and a number of other things - a couple months later the put it in, a number of games do this. PotBS has a number of mechanics and elements that are not going to make launch but will be added in once live - it is the nature of pay to play games. Particuarly pay to play MMOs that are linear and quest based. That being said, it is a Turbine trademark to add content post launch. Some might say (given DDO and LotRO) they ship things polished low end and add in the end game or high end stuff in live but that is really semantics. Point is, it is not that uncommon to have content added in MMOs and not against Turbine's modus operandi. It certainly is not a news flash and certainly is not free.
You seriously want to argue here that LotRO shipped in the box with all the content it needed to go from launch through the year? Or through the summer even? Perhaps for the casual (the biggest draw of the game admittingly) but from before launch the more active players where clamouring about content all over the Turbine site, and turbine responded regularly that higher end stuff would follow after launch. This is not an insult, not a slam, it is just what happened - no biggy. Why would you argue these things? I mean when someone comes here and makes Turbine out to be unique amoung developers for giving out all this FREE stuff I will comment. The reality is they are just completing commitments made from before launch and adding in the content to attract and keep PAYING subscribers for thier pay to play game. Turbine is FACTUALLY not giving anything away and while I said in my original comment here it is notable they are doing this (and traditionally do so) it is not accurate to say as the OP said they are giving away free stuff as if expansion packs are getting sent to subscribers, gratis.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Well through converted buddy keys...its free for me. So i win this thread.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Turbine can add all the content they want and I will not give a rats ass until they make the player mechanics more interesting than a paralyzed 90 year old on ice skates.
Sounds like DOTA, oh and also WoW concept that has been roaming around for ages. EQ 2, WoW, LOTRO. All similar games, all cookie cutter. Asian games have their cookie cutter style now westerners have the DAOC style.
LOTRO is not original. Asheron's call was original, one of the first games that had any type of twitch combat that took player skill, non of this style of gaming, their just trying to gain more $$$.
Battlegrounds ahoy! Try again
BTW take some notes this guy might actaully know something, I agree SKURK81
You can believe what you want but I never even bought the retail box, after 13 or 14 days in the pre-order I returned it and cancelled as I got bored.
Are you kidding on that BS you typed about starting with lack of content and then high end nad then saying mid to high end? My god you have serious emotional issues for crying out loud.
Calling you out on verifiable inconsistencies in your argument means I have emotional issues? That's quite the leap of logic. Or a lapse of it, at least. I called you out on them because you are using them as ammo to support your side of whatever you want to call this... As such, changing the details up from one post to another makes you look like you don't know what the hell you're talking about. And, by the by, you once again altered that point... Now Turbine, *perhaps*, have mentioned mid-level content as part of what was missing. In the last post, there was no "perhaps". They either said it or they didn't. You either remember it or you don't. One or the other.
Seriously... I'm not arguing that - whatever the actual facts are - are irrelevant or "wrong". I am pointing out, however, that if you can't get the details straight, don't use them to try and prove a point. That's not an "emotional issue". That's plain common sense.
As for the rest - this site is MMORPG.com - it isn't lotroCompliments.com. If you have trouble with a site where people discuss all sorts of things about all sorts of MMO games then I suggest you quit visiting. Go to the LotRO forums, while not 100% complimentary posts there things are a bit more friendly as it is the official boards - on a site like this you will get allot more comments of a positive and negative nature.
Thank you for the lesson. I have no problem with negative opinions of a game. I have expressed them myself, about this game and others. The difference is, I'm actually playing the games I comment on and I try to debate things that actually have some point to them - you know... like how well is Tolkien's lore represented in the game, how is the game engine's performance. How are the quests, and so forth. I don't linger in forums for games I claim to have no interest in, obsessing over pointless details, such as the meaning of the word "free", or spending 26+ pages debating in circles about whether the game is a success or not based on unverifiable numbers.
You seriously want to argue here that LotRO shipped in the box with all the content it needed to go from launch through the year? Or through the summer even?
Nope.. In fact, I've never even suggested such a thing. You can barely keep your own "facts" straight. You really have no business presuming to speak for me. But now that you mention it... where the hell did you pull that from anyway? Has the phantom LoTRO fanboy army who told you the game would have WoW-like numbers been whispering things in your ear while you sleep or something?
Perhaps for the casual (the biggest draw of the game admittingly) but from before launch the more active players where clamouring about content all over the Turbine site, and turbine responded regularly that higher end stuff would follow after launch. This is not an insult, not a slam, it is just what happened - no biggy. Why would you argue these things? I mean when someone comes here and makes Turbine out to be unique amoung developers for giving out all this FREE stuff I will comment. The reality is they are just completing commitments made from before launch and adding in the content to attract and keep PAYING subscribers for thier pay to play game. Turbine is FACTUALLY not giving anything away and while I said in my original comment here it is notable they are doing this (and traditionally do so) it is not accurate to say as the OP said they are giving away free stuff as if expansion packs are getting sent to subscribers, gratis.
Sure... higher end stuff, along with a whole lot of other content, to be delivered - at no extra charge on a regular basis. I know what you're going to say "But that content was missing at launch!! It's not new content! You have emotional issues!" However... can you tell me, definitively exactly where that "missing content" you speak of cuts off? Can you say with any degree of certainty - and without changing details from one post to the next - that Turbine haven't already rolled out all they intended to at launch? Can you point to a specific outline from them of exactly *what* content in their updates was intended for launch and what is in fact new?
Now before you fly off on some zany tangent that I'm claiming "the game launched with enough content to last 'til 2010" - I'm not. I'm just requesting some specific references to support what you're saying here. That's hardly an unfair request, assuming you're trying to make a real point here and not just theorizing wildly, pulling information out of the thin air, or spinning details to support your point-of-view.
As for the OP... What he's saying is factually correct. They are providing two large content updates over the course of 4 months. This is true. They're updates, and they have alot of new content. There's no additional purchase; no one's gonna have to go to their local GameStop for a retail box, or enter their CC# online somewhere to download it... Yet it's new content added on to what subscribers are already paying for anyway. Soo... yeah, I guess that makes them free updates. There really is nothing mystical about it. No smoke and mirrors or sleight of hand. It is what it is. In any website blurb or article I could find in about 9 or 10 pages of search results on Google (because I like to actually verify my statements before I make them) - some of them being very high profile websites - they all acknowledged them as free content updates. Or are you going to now tell me that they're all wrong now?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
BTW take some notes this guy might actaully know something, I agree SKURK81
lol.. "I agree with him, therefor he might actually know something"
Yeah... there's a comment I'd place alot of stock in.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well you look at all these games that bring in the WASD, yet still require a point and click to get anything done. DAOC, SWG, WoW, EQ2, LOTRO. NOT TO MENTION the fact that they all have just the skill hotkeys that you MUST use to get anything done.
You take all these people that are playing allt hese games and saying THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!!! Although it was the same as the last 3 games you tried out. LOTRO fan bois are just playing a dumbed down version of WoW w/different skins.
these games are jsut going backwards, with teh exception of SWG, taking instances as the main way of hunting and even PVPing not to mention these games use the "Homing missile" style combat where you cant even dodge attacks unless a % says so.
And yes I did agree with skurk81, and i do believe hes able to see all these games are the same and all these games are starting to just mold together and that we need to break the mold and gain something more than just stay in range and hit 1 and 3. Its rediculous, i wanna hear what you gotta say WSIMike i wanna know what you know about.
As a matter of fact, I've recently found out myself that this can be quite an enjoyable aspect of the game: atm digging up chucks of dwarf-iron ore when I find them in Angmar, going back to Thorin's Gate and buying some coal, crafting some dwarf-steel ingots and then selling it at the Auction Hall. I enjoy setting a low asking price and then watch as people start to bid for what I just crafted, and eventually returning me some cash in return to pay for item repairs. All in good fun, and a nice break from high-level questing.
And so my point (if I have one) that Turbine have certainly managed to create a compelling experience in that area for a certain percent of the player base (even me). Once again, not counting gold farmers and not really those who just collect large amount of stuff and try to sell it off for 3 gold a piece either, just the people who are really into and enjoy the crafting, farming and trading aspects of the game.
Aside from all that there is course things like deed farming, collecting pages for your legendary books and probably other things a well that I've forgotten to remember
, so no it's not all about constantly adding new quests to keep people subscribing. Case closed 
and while it is not something I want to do for hours on end , it is a great way to get some exp and a work my way toward great reward in those 30 min or so before dinnner or work.
I miss DAoC
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Well you look at all these games that bring in the WASD, yet still require a point and click to get anything done. DAOC, SWG, WoW, EQ2, LOTRO. NOT TO MENTION the fact that they all have just the skill hotkeys that you MUST use to get anything done.
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Right... because that setup has proven to be the most intuitive and comfortable for the largest number of players on the whole, enough to make it a standard setup for "Western style" MMOs. I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. The same can be said for RTSs, or FPSs... or many RPGs which all also share similar control setups. When you look at games where the devs tried to implement a different control scheme, player reaction is very often something along the lines of "the controls are awful! Why isn't there WASD?" So, it's actually very smart for devs to maintain a familiar control setup - it allows players to get into actually playing the game right off the bat, instead of possibly having to sit for an hour just trying to figure out the controls. Why fix it if it isn't broken?
Look at what happened with the gamepad for the XBox... Microsoft released the first version, thinking they were releasing something innovative on the gaming public and were met with cries of "WTF is this?!". The controller they released, dubbed "The Duke", was too large for many people, and the buttons were difficult to reach. People hated it. So, Microsoft ended up replacing it with the smaller Japanese version. Yet, Sony has kept the same basic gamepad design since PS1, and no one complains... Why do you think that is?
It also boils down to what players are used to. I know people who are fully comfortable with the WASD setup who've tried games like Lineage 2 or Archlord and absolutely hate it. Conversely, I have a couple friends who were introduced to MMOs with Lineage 2 and so think any control setup that isn't click-to-move is screwed up and unintuitive. So it's also very subjective.
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You take all these people that are playing allt hese games and saying THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!!! Although it was the same as the last 3 games you tried out. LOTRO fan bois are just playing a dumbed down version of WoW w/different skins.
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Well, first, everyone takes something different from a game - or anything for that matter. It might be "just another clone" to you or others, but to some it's familiar but different enough from anything else they've played that they can enjoy it as a fresh experience. The whole "fanbois" comment was not only gratuitous, presumptuous and, frankly, absurd, it does a great job of demonstrating your ignorance. You don't like the game, fine. But to characterize people who enjoy the game as a "fanboi" simply because you have issues with it... Well, that's just sad.
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these games are jsut going backwards, with teh exception of SWG, taking instances as the main way of hunting and even PVPing not to mention these games use the "Homing missile" style combat where you cant even dodge attacks unless a % says so.
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So wait... you talk about LoTRO being "dumbed down"... and then you cite SWG as an exception to games "going backwards"? And you typed that with a straight face? Are you aware that what SOE did to SWG is pretty much universally considered the biggest blunder ever in a MMO - to the point that even SOE themselves admits they screwed up? Taking a system with 32 combinable professions the player can mix and match into any unique combo they choose and reducing it down to 9 specific archetypes, making them a copy of everyone else, isn't "dumbing down" or "going backwards"? What would you call it, positive progress? I really hope any present SWG vets weren't drinking anything when they read that comment.
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And yes I did agree with skurk81, and i do believe hes able to see all these games are the same and all these games are starting to just mold together and that we need to break the mold and gain something more than just stay in range and hit 1 and 3. Its rediculous, i wanna hear what you gotta say WSIMike i wanna know what you know about.
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Well, first I wonder if your buddy skurk has similarly strong feelings about the list of games you gave at the beginning of this post? You know... the ones you said all have the same control setup, going all the way back to DAoC? Or is he conveniently only taking issue with LoTRO because it's the popular whipping-boy of the moment? Further, do either of you have any ideas of a better setup that you'd be willing to risk millions in the R&D of? Or, are you and he just bitching because no one's made a system that caters specifically to you?
As for you wanting to hear "what I know"... Well..
For starters, I know I literally laughed out loud when I read that comment. I mean... I've seen plenty of posturing before in forums... but wow. That was on a whole other level.
I think I've pretty much covered "what I know" in this post. However, I will say that everyone has their own preferences and things they like and don't like. That you, or skurk or anyone else decides they don't like it - for whatever reason - does not render the product "flawed". Nor does it make the people who do like it "fanbois". It simply means they like it... and you don't. No need to psycho-analyze why, or label it, or read into it any more than that.
I also know that so boldly stating such a thing, as you did in this post with the whole "dumbed down WoW" comment not only proves your absolute ignorance in that regard, it underscores it.
And now you know "what I know".
Satisfied?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Hey Mike!
Always enjoy reading your posts... they're quite level headed compared to most of the posts on this site.
Just a comment:
I know you probably know this, but really... when dealing with the majority of the members of this site, no matter how much you try to rationalize or explain things to them, they're still never going to get the idea... TO EACH THEIR OWN.
Many people on this site actually get off by flaming, bitching and complaining about any and everything they possibly can. Why? I don't know. It seems to be the flavor of the past couple of months is for people to flame games they don't like or don't want to like. Unless the game is tailored completely to what they look for in a game, their mission is to flame the game to hell, regardless of truthfulness or logic.
It's something I still don't understand to this day. I mean, if I don't enjoy a game, I usually will make a post on the game boards about why I don't like it and leave it at that and move on to another game. Why people get stuck in this "I hate this game, it's lacking content, depth, originality, not 3rd generation, wow clone, carebear" mode, and post it over and over again...I will never understand. If you don't like the game, send feedback to the game developers, post a message or two about why you didn't like it along with suggestions of how to better the game and MOVE ON.
Do people seriously think they will stop people from playing a game because they flame it? Does it boost someone's ego to go around and constantly posting negative things about a game that many people obviously enjoy? What good does it do to repeat the same complaints, post after post after post? Obviously the game wasn't your cup of tea people.. MOVE ON TO ANOTHER GAME... and have fun!
I'm not sure what the answer is... but I for one now visit and post on this site less and less. The trolling has become so predictable, it's actually boring to read now. Vanguard was the first to get hit with trolling (which it really did deserve), LOTRO has been a victim of it since it's release and if you look at AOC and WAR, they're getting their share now too.
It's too bad people just don't leave a game be for others to enjoy and go find a game they like to play themselves.
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JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
That's not exact...
WWIIOnline had all MAJOR free content updates since 2001 and they usually did it each 2 months too.
Will be great news if LOTR also keeps 6 years of free Major content updates... they should be free until year 2013, to be on pair with WWIIOnline