I would quote Websters on 'obfuscate' but clearly you know the meaning of that word even if you struggle in understanding how someone might object to calling any kind of updates to a pay to play subscription game as free. The point isn't even if the updates are 'free' or not, the point is how a bunch of fanboys can object so strongly to someone saying they are not 'free'. I think it is wrong to say they are free as you must pay a monthly fee to access the new, and old, content which - disagree if you want. But to demononize and vilify someone for arguing they are not free shows how you merit the fanboy label as it is clearly not an outrageous position to suggest they are not free.
Avoiding a direct challenge to back up your statements again I see.
Why won't you answer my question?
I've leveled a request at you to qualify your view and explain the difference between a retail expansion where people *do* pay extra to acquire and access added content, as compared to a bi-monthly update where they don't. If, according to you, we pay for added content by virtue of the monthly subscription and it isn't free, then how do you explain the extra retail charge for an expansion pack? They both boil down to "more content being added" in the end, do they not? So how does the subscription fee cover one, but we're charged an additional $30 or more for the other on top of the monthly subscription? There's an apparent quandry there and I'd say an explanation as to how your point-of-view resolves it is in order.
Yes, I realize I'm a fanboy for requesting you to back-up something you've said. Just this once, though, indulge me. Be a sport.
I and others here have provided our reasoning in various degrees of detail. Why can't you do the same?
You've certainly demonstrated an absolute and unwavering certainty that the content updates themselves aren't free. You've defended that position to the point of calling us "fanboys" for disagreeing. You've dismissed 10 of many links provided pointing to other references stating the same thing.
With so much demonstrated confidence in your view as being "right", certainly it should pose no difficulty for you to draw a logical distinction between the two, no?
....
Now you turn around and say "it's not the point if they're free or not"? Who are you kidding? Did this thread just get sucked into the twilight zone since I last posted? That's exactly what a key point of this thread has been, since the very first page. You saying the content updates aren't free. Us saying they are. And you have the nerve to throw the word "obfuscate" around? Talk about pot and kettle.
It's the same old pattern with you. You make absolute statements, call anyone who disagrees with you a "fanboy", and make vague references to "proof" that you consistently fail to provide evidence of, despite repeated requests. You either change the topic or pull the fanboy card and simply continue on with your talking points.
Maybe in your world "your say so" is more than enough to prove anything you say as "fact", and anyone who disagrees is wrong. In the real world, though, people have to back up what they state as "fact" with actual proof... "because they say so" isn't good enough. The "fanboy" card is not an exemption from it either.
So if it bugs you so much to see people disagreeing with you so strongly, then my suggestion is to refrain from using the "fanboy" card when others don't share your opinion. Actually providing verifiable evidence of your claims when asked for them, or not making those claims in the first place, would help, too.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by AgtSmith Second, if they are free then how come I cannot play the new content? Let me suggest an answer - because I did not pay for a subscription the month they where released. Ooops - mustpay for subscription in order to access the content - doesn't sound free does it.
LOL! Well, exactly what would you do with the Free Upates if you weren't going to subscribe to the game? Who knows... you should contact Turbine and ask them if they will send you just the Free Updates all by themselves even though you don't plan on subscribing.
Hmm... how is this analogy?
You lease a new car. You pay a down payment as well as a monthly cost for this new car.
2 months later the dealer sends you a set of new tires for your car completely taking care of all costs for shipping and installation.
The tires will only work on the new car you just leased
The new tires that the dealer sent you are a lot nicer and make your car go faster than the ones that came with the car originally.
Anyone who leases that same model car now from that dealer gets the new tires that you were sent, not the older tires you originally leased the car with.
So, are the tires FREE?
Well, I know that Smithy will blow my analogy off as Fanboyism... but what do the rest of you think. How does that analogy work with this thread topic?
Nope! They're not free.. because if you are paying a monthly finance charge for the car, that automatically includes anything the dealer sends you after you've finished the deal and driven off the lot. Even though the rate hasn't increased, you're obviously paying for the tires via the monthly finance charge. If you weren't paying your monthly charge, the car would be repossessed and the tires would be useless to you. Duh!
It's a fact that many reasonable people agree with me on this. No I won't provide links to any of them. You're a fanboy for even asking me to.
I'm so sick of all these fanboys all over the place claiming the tires are free just because the dealer provided them at no extra charge. No I won't provide links to any of the fanboys I referred to.
Fanboy.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Hmm... how is this analogy? You lease a new car. You pay a down payment as well as a monthly cost for this new car. 2 months later the dealer sends you a set of new tires for your car completely taking care of all costs for shipping and installation. The tires will only work on the new car you just leased. The new tires that the dealer sent you are a lot nicer and make your car go faster than the ones that came with the car originally. Anyone who leases that same model car now from that dealer gets the new tires that you were sent, not the older tires you originally leased the car with. So, are the tires FREE?
No, the tires are included in the price you pay them to lease the car.
Your analogy is incitefull so far as I believe you and those arguing think of Turbine's updates as if they where as remarkable as a dealer sending you new tires out of the blue. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as Lexus (or whomever) advertising that a lease comes with this Lexus Pre-Owned Certified Service that includes tires and gas and washes and loaner cars when in for service and all that stuff. Good stuff for sure but all INCLUDED in the price you paid. Turbine said well before launch these updates where in the works and would not make launch but would come shortly thereafter - just like with DDO. Turbine has a history of doing this as do developers as hated as SoE (creature mounts added after launch, player cities, classes, vehicles, etc) - it is a good thing but not unusual and it is not free it is part of the subscription.
Originally posted by WSIMike Avoiding a direct challenge to back up your statements again I see. Why won't you answer my question?
Because your question/challenge is a false one and because I am intelligent, reasoned enough, and mature enough to realize that knowledge is not measured by what links point to it. My opinion of the subject has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of articles in gaming mags that talk about this. My opinion is based on my knowledge, experience, and logic - not on what some gaming magazine says. Seriously, gaming magazines are known to be fronts for developer PR machines so what does that show anyways.
As for the subject here - I have explained why I think it is ridiculous to exaggerate the updates into something particularly unusual and I pointed out that you do pay to play the game and the updates so it isn't really free. I also mentioned, as did others, that other games do/have done the same thing yet you ignore all that and continue to attack and berate as if I was suggesting here that Turbine was the worst developer ever and LotRO the worst game ever. All I said, all I have argued, is that these content updates where planned from well before launch, they are not so unusual in terms of pay to play MMOs as they rely on re-ups to survive (SWG had lots of content added, EVE did and does, etc, etc, etc.) and that they are not really free because to get them you have to be a paying customer. I was even was complementary in my first post or two but still I get jumped unreasonably by the rabid fanboys.
Is it seriously so ridiculous an opinion to suggest that a game that you pay $15 a month to play is not giving anything away for free? Given the cited examples of other games that did similar updates at no extra charge isn't it reasonable for a person to say it is not a unique thing Turbine has done? If you cannot acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that anyone clambering about FEE EXPANSIONS and LOOK AT WHAT GREAT TURBINE HAS DONE and other such exaggerated commentaries is going overboard. Isn't a much more reasonable thing to say that "Turbine has been actively adding to the game since launch with 2 big updates at no extra charge." Isn't that allot more accurate and fair description of the situation than declaring Turbine is giving away FREE EXPANSIONS and doing something no developer has ever done and all that?
Hmm... how is this analogy? You lease a new car. You pay a down payment as well as a monthly cost for this new car. 2 months later the dealer sends you a set of new tires for your car completely taking care of all costs for shipping and installation. The tires will only work on the new car you just leased. The new tires that the dealer sent you are a lot nicer and make your car go faster than the ones that came with the car originally. Anyone who leases that same model car now from that dealer gets the new tires that you were sent, not the older tires you originally leased the car with. So, are the tires FREE?
No, the tires are included in the price you pay them to lease the car.
Your anology is inciteful in so far as I believe you and those arguing think of Turbine's updates as if they where as remarkable as a dealer sending you new tires out of the blue. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as lexus (or whomever) advertising that a lease comes with this Lexus Pre-Owned Certified Service that includes tires and gas and washes and loaner cars when in for service and all that stuff. Good stuff for sure but all INCLUDED in the price you paid. Turbine said well before launch these updates where in the works and would not make launch but would ocme shortly thereafter - just like with DDO. Turbine has a history of doing this as do developers as hated as SoE (creature mounts added after launch, player cities, classes, vehicles, etc) - it is a good thing but not unusual and it is not free it is part of the subscription.
Please answer WsiMike's question.
If SOE charges an *extra* fee for some of their updates - are the customers double-charged then? How is that not extremely infuriating please?
I know you won't, since it would only prove the total idiocy of your argument, so let me expand the car lease point:
I am buying the lexus at a price of 40k USD - say, 500bucks a month, for 100 months (cruel salesmen!). I have started the lease in June.
In July,: Joe Jack buys HIS identical Lexus for 40k, for a 100 months at 500 USD per month. In August there is a promotion for any recent (within 1 month) buyers: he gets a FREE set of tires.
Now - was that free for him or not? If it wasn't, why didn't I get the same tyres - I paid the same!! Did Lexus cheat on me?
No dude, they didn't. It was their decision. They gave the tyres for FREE.
(if the original promotion would have included the set of tyres WHEN we bought the cars, then MAYBE it could be argued that they were included in the price. But that is not what was given above an example - you have twisted it again to suit your dying argument, as usual....) Again - this is not a very good analogy as you are actually paying for the car (the hardware), and not subsribing to use it...
Face it and quit it, you lost. End of story.
DB (I know, fanboy...:)
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
first was book 9 in june. Book 10 coming next monday
No other game company out there gives to their costumers a MAJOR free content update every 2 months, they already announce book 11 for october forums.lotro.com/showthread.php
Sorry to burst your buble but LotR isnt the first MMOG to offer alot of contents for free ... EvE online has being doing it for ages and has already entered it's final phase of a graphic engine upgrade... and guess what,it's free.
And the content LotR is launching atm isnt actualy free,it's more like the missing stuff they didnt add at launch cause they had to rush it abit aparently.
In the end we always pay for new content, one way or another. Guildwars for example doens't charge subscription but you have to pay the expansion. In EVE you pay subscription but you don't have to pay for the expansion. But in the end we payed money
Same for LotRO, while you don't pay for those 'books' you do pay subscription. I like the subscription only option because I know I pay xxx euro's a month and get all the content there is. With EQ2 the total price (subscription + content fee) in one month could fluctuate. Thats also the reason I stopped playing EQ2 after my trial, I just want to have a fix price per month for all content.
Originally posted by airstrike Sorry to burst your buble but LotR isnt the first MMOG to offer alot of contents for free ... EvE online has being doing it for ages and has already entered it's final phase of a graphic engine upgrade... and guess what,it's free.
And the content LotR is launching atm isnt actualy free,it's more like the missing stuff they didnt add at launch cause they had to rush it abit aparently.
I tried pointing this out, as did others - but all the while they where bashing for for not showing links they just ignored it. Heck, the hated and dreaded SoE is hated and dreaded because of a big update they did the NGE which was a near complete revamp of the entire game and that was a follow up to the CU which was another revamp and that was following adding classes, player cities and professions to go with, vehicles and mounts and all sorts of stuff monthly. It just isn't unusual for these pay to play games to add content over time, period.
Originally posted by DonnieBrasco
Please answer WsiMike's question.
If SOE charges an *extra* fee for some of their updates - are the customers double-charged then? How is that not extremely infuriating please?
I know you won't, since it would only prove the total idiocy of your argument, so let me expand the car lease point:
I wouldn't say they are being double charged, it is just a gimmick though. Either they are being ripped off by being sold in game items they need/want which most people think of when it comes to this type of stuff (IE the super boots of kicking butt for $2.99) or they are just breaking the price system down to something they think consumers will find more palatable. IE no lnger do you pay $15 a month you just pay $5 but access to RAID areas costs $5 a month now. Is it free or not free or double charged or whatnot - that is for the assholes in marketing that come up with these schemes to argue about. To me it is simple - I buy a game like Battlefield 2 and patches come, new maps come, even MODs come. Do I think free content - yes, I do. It is free because it is provided in exchange for nothing. I have allready payed the $50 for the box and nothing EA/Dice does is going to get more money from me for BF2 so anything they do is gratis. In an MMO it is differant, I bought the $50 box and that comes with ONE month of play - so the DEVs have to get me to buy another month, and another, and another - so anything they do I see as in 'exchange' for that next month's subscription. And I think most people think of it that way this the famous slams in board like these about 'cancel if you don't like it'. Is it at no extra charge - I guess - but since it is not so unusual in terms of content after launch I think that is a bit uneeded. lots of games have done this and still do it. It doesn't make LoTRO bad or Turbine evil it is just unfair to say as the OP did that it is something nobody has done and that is it free since it is based on a recurring subscription.
But again, it isn't about the free or not free thing - the issue is why would you all argue so insultingly with someone who thinks it isn't free. Is it really that unfathomable a position that you have to go all 'fanboy' on someone about it? Seriously, is it even a negative position to suggest it isn't free because of the sub? Is it not fair to consider the OP claims and others in this thread against the history of these types of games where many, many games do the same type of content updates and don't charge for them (EVE mentioned, SWG mentioned, and others). Is it so negative and so hateful of me to say that Turbine was talking about this for months before launch saying certain things would not make release but would come shortly afterwards?
Why jump all down someones through for saying that while good, this is not that atypical and since it is a pay to play game it is not really free. how is that a comment that warrants the hate and personal BS you guys have been throwing on people. I will apologize for the fanboy label but that label exists for the very reasons I am mentioning here. I made a reasonable statement early on in this thread and it was not insulting to the game in any way. Yet because I didn't chime in praising Turbine the bashing of the unbeliever stuff started happening. All of this, all these pages, all the flames and stuff simply over the semantics of whether it is free or not. It is ridiculous and my point for pages and pages has not been about the OP anymore but about the overreaction of anything perceived as non-positive by you guys.
The so called 'free to play' model SoE is working on where they call it free but then try to sell you all the good stuff in game really doesn't compare here - it is two different things. If you want to say that Turbine's updates are at no extra charge to clarify since new pay models are appearing I suppose that is accurate even if unnecessary.
But again, it isn't about the free or not free thing - the issue is why would you all argue so insultingly with someone who thinks it isn't free. Is it really that unfathomable a position that you have to go all 'fanboy' on someone about it? Seriously, is it even a negative position to suggest it isn't free because of the sub? Is it not fair to consider the OP claims and others in this thread against the history of these types of games where many, many games do the same type of content updates and don't charge for them (EVE mentioned, SWG mentioned, and others). Is it so negative and so hateful of me to say that Turbine was talking about this for months before launch saying certain things would not make release but would come shortly afterwards?
Why jump all down someones through for saying that while good, this is not that atypical and since it is a pay to play game it is not really free. how is that a comment that warrants the hate and personal BS you guys have been thrwoing on people. I will apologize for the fanboy label but that label exists for the very reasons I am mentioning here. I made a reasonable statement early on in this thread and it was not insulting to the game in any way. Yet because I didn't chime in praising Turbine the bashing of the unbeliever stuff started happening. All of this, all these pages, all the flames and stuff simply over the semantics of whether it is free or not. It is ridiculous and my poitn for pages and pages has not been about the OP anymore but about the overreaction of anything perceived as non-positive by you guys.
Still no reply, no proof, nothing. The fanboy card is evolving to the "please don't hurt me" card ....
The sarcasm was pointed at these things, not your opinion - whatever it is, we could not really follow it through the twists and turns as you keep changing what the topic is "all about"...
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
In the end we always pay for new content, one way or another. Guildwars for example doens't charge subscription but you have to pay the expansion. In EVE you pay subscription but you don't have to pay for the expansion. But in the end we payed money Same for LotRO, while you don't pay for those 'books' you do pay subscription. I like the subscription only option because I know I pay xxx euro's a month and get all the content there is. With EQ2 the total price (subscription + content fee) in one month could fluctuate. Thats also the reason I stopped playing EQ2 after my trial, I just want to have a fix price per month for all content.
Dude, the point is: there are different models
1 - you pay to play. with LOTRO (and EVE) you DO NOT pay extra for content (they are F R E E). Only difference is that Lotro's updates come every 2 months, EVE's come in in 6-12 months periods.
2 - you pay to play. Then, the developer/publisher charges you EXTRA for some (or all) of their updates. These are NOT FREE.
3 - you do not pay to play (GW). Naturally, you have to pay for something, so you pay for content ONLY. Thus, playing time is FREE.
Now, 1 and 3 are acceptable options, as you don't pay TWICE. Who is doing the worst way (#2)?
Yes, SOE and Blizzard...
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
And the content LotR is launching atm isnt actualy free,it's more like the missing stuff they didnt add at launch cause they had to rush it abit aparently.
LOL, the old "they are adding what was missing" idiocy...
So, in your mind, Blizzard was only adding the Burning Crusade this year, whereas they should have included it at launch? Bastards even charged a LOT of money for that "missing content"...
Also, by this logic EVE wasn't even a GAME when it was launched - they added 90% of the content after launch! Bastards!!!
Every time I see this ridiculous argument I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Lotro isnt the only one to give big updates for free. EQ2 for example gives a major update once per month, which have included new dungeons, raid zones, modes, features and even entire races, complete with starting areas, quests etc. Eve gives all their expansions for free. Etc Some of them make LOTRO's 2 monthly update look a bit nothingy
Exactly
ALL MMOS have free updates
ALL
Vanguard, World of Warcraft, Dark age of Camelot (drag'ons revenge for ex) , Star Wars Galaxies (chapters)
And the content LotR is launching atm isnt actualy free,it's more like the missing stuff they didnt add at launch cause they had to rush it abit aparently.
LOL, the old "they are adding what was missing" idiocy...
So, in your mind, Blizzard was only adding the Burning Crusade this year, whereas they should have included it at launch? Bastards even charged a LOT of money for that "missing content"...
Also, by this logic EVE wasn't even a GAME when it was launched - they added 90% of the content after launch! Bastards!!!
Every time I see this ridiculous argument I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry
DB
You MR foaming fanboy fail at good argument and at life... please quit ... life.And maibe quit making arguments... what's WoW have to do with the free contents and BC ??? If EvE wasnt a game at launch what was it ... a desert or something ? Maibe im wrong and derilious but I remember when LotR came out there wasnt alot of content for mid level players ... and people were getting bored and quiting before max lvl.
Sorry if I accidentally hurt any of your pet games - you missed the point (and who is the "fanboi", then, hmmm? )
It is much easier to resort to personal attacks instead of admitting that you have written down something stupid (and painfully unoriginal, too!)
Any newly added content is new content, in ANY game - let's just agree on this.
If you disagree- then you must accept my argument about WOW/BC and EVE as well - like it or not. That's logic. I know it hurts, and needs more brain than flaming, but I prefer it.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
listen fangirl/boy the only serious thing to do about lotro is to forget it as quickly as we can
Specially because we love tolkien's world.
lotro 's fan doesn't know tolkien they are the worst community never played with. my rate: 0/20 a mistake.
I am sure you don't even take yourself seriously . I deliberately did not respond to any of your posts as they speak for themselves, so pls go on and make yourself as ridiculous as you wish to. /ignore from me, bye.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
1 - you pay to play. with LOTRO (and EVE) you DO NOT pay extra for content (they are F R E E). Only difference is that Lotro's updates come every 2 months, EVE's come in in 6-12 months periods.
2 - you pay to play. Then, the developer/publisher charges you EXTRA for some (or all) of their updates. These are NOT FREE.
3 - you do not pay to play (GW). Naturally, you have to pay for something, so you pay for content ONLY. Thus, playing time is FREE.
Now, 1 and 3 are acceptable options, as you don't pay TWICE. Who is doing the worst way (#2)?
Yes, SOE and Blizzard...
DB
That is just not true.
you pay to play. with LOTRO (and EVE) you DO NOT pay extra for content (they are F R E E).
You always pay to play, with every online game. Server infrastructure has to be paid (not counting player made servers like in FPS games). GW has put this costs into the price of the game. LoTRO in the price of the subscription. The rest of the money is used to pay the staff, and that includes developers. And naturaly the investors want to see money also
you do not pay to play (GW). Naturally, you have to pay for something, so you pay for content ONLY. Thus, playing time is FREE.
Again, playing time isn't free. If all the money is dried up they got from selling the game they will shutdown the servers or release an expantion to get more money to support the server infrastructure.
If you still think I am wrong, please tell me how the developers and investors get paid IF all the money from the subscription is used for paying the server infrastructure bills (and GM's offcource ) and the new content is free. Just tell me, I really like to hear how you think companies which give out free content get their money from to pay for creating this 'free' content.
Because your question/challenge is a false one and because I am intelligent, reasoned enough, and mature enough to realize that knowledge is not measured by what links point to it. My opinion of the subject has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of articles in gaming mags that talk about this. My opinion is based on my knowledge, experience, and logic - not on what some gaming magazine says. Seriously, gaming magazines are known to be fronts for developer PR machines so what does that show anyways. It's a false question? How? You've stated your case here and I am asking you clarify a discrepancy that case introduces. If by the rest of your comment you're claiming that your "intelligence, reasoning and maturity" places you above having to back up statements you have stated as "fact" with actual proof, like everyone else does, then I'd say "blatantly arrogant" or "delusional" need to be added to that list. No one is above having to support what they claim as fact with actual proof. While I realize you are now framing your comments as "your personal view" a la "opinion", for most of the this thread you've been referring to those who disagree with you as "fanboys". That doesn't seem like the reaction of someone who views their comments as mere "opinion".
If you seriously believe your opinion of yourself exempts you from satisfying the same burden of proof everyone else is held to, and that what you say should be accepted as fact simply because you say it is... then I seriously hope you aren't too bewildered at how people mock you, because you've earned it. That's not an insult.. it's a statement.
As for the subject here - I have explained why I think it is ridiculous to exaggerate the updates into something particularly unusual and I pointed out that you do pay to play the game and the updates so it isn't really free. You'll notice that up 'til now I haven't even touched the whole "unique updates" thing. Main reason is I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as it's been characterized. The other reason is that to give an answer assumes I know what context they were speaking in... which I don't. You'll notice context is an important and under-appreciated thing to me. It's especially important to identify when you're dealing with words on a screen, instead of hearing someone saying it. Lacking inflection, tone and accompanying body language, it's easy to misconstrue what someone's saying. I'm sure we've all done it. I think the OP would have to qualify the context they were speaking in before anyone can really respond. Were they speaking in first person, in terms of their own personal experience? Or, were they speaking about the genre in general? If, for example, they've only ever played 3 MMOs, and LoTRO is the first one they've played where updates were given on such an aggressive basis - or even possibly at all (I have played a few that didn't give regular updates), then I would say that for them it would be a unique thing and their statement was a fair one.
However, if they're speaking about the genre in general, then I'd say that "unique" wasn't the right word to use. Yes, that's right.. I actually, partially, agree with you on something. That said, I would say that from what I've seen in my own experience over the past 8 years, in all the games I've played and/or followed (roughly 30 in all), that Turbine has setup and faithfully adheres to such an aggressive update schedule - in all their games - is certainly a rarity. Especially with the amount and overall quality of the content they put out in that time-frame. AC1 has had over 80 such updates released (not including retail expansions) since it came out. So is it "unique" that they put out updates? No. However, do they deliver said updates at a frequency and/or quality above and beyond what many others achieve, enough to be noteworthy as a rarity? I say absolutely. Is it seriously so ridiculous an opinion to suggest that a game that you pay $15 a month to play is not giving anything away for free? Given the cited examples of other games that did similar updates at no extra charge isn't it reasonable for a person to say it is not a unique thing Turbine has done? If you cannot acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that anyone clambering about FEE EXPANSIONS and LOOK AT WHAT GREAT TURBINE HAS DONE and other such exaggerated commentaries is going overboard. Isn't a much more reasonable thing to say that "Turbine has been actively adding to the game since launch with 2 big updates at no extra charge." Isn't that allot more accurate and fair description of the situation than declaring Turbine is giving away FREE EXPANSIONS and doing something no developer has ever done and all that? You're mixing up two different points. Whether or not it's "unique" and whether or not they're "free" are two different questions. I already threw my hat into the ring and gave my point-of-view to the "unique" thing above. However, with the whole "free" thing... I see it very simply this way... I paid $40 or so for the game at the store, and it came with a specific amount of content. When an expansion comes out, providing more new content, I go to the store and put down another $30 or so for it... Or, I pay online and download it. If I do not pay, via either of those options, I don't get the content and I don't get to experience it. That I'm paying a subscription doesn't change that either way, because the subscription fee does not cover the content. This is why, to me, the subscription fee and the cost of a content expansion are two different things. They do not continue to charge you for the content any more than an offline game company does. You've already paid for the content when you bought the game and/or any retail expansion. You paid for it and received the disc with all the required content on it. You do not have to "re-purchase" it after that - unless you lost the box/disc and have to buy a new one. So what's with the subscription fee? The subscription fee covers the "service" end of the deal. You are charged for the on-going ability to play the game online. There's hardware to support, bandwidth to be paid for, a network to be maintained and numerous employees to pay, all of whom are there to keep the game going so people can log in and play it. In this regard, MMORPGs are considered more of an "online service", like AOL, than a "game". I can provide reference to where I get this from if you or anyone else would like to check it for yourself. Whatever mucking of numbers you say is happening behind the scenes is supposition at best. You don't know what's going on, or how it's going. Again, unless you have access to information to back that up and can point us to the source of it? If not, please do not use the "I'm intelligent enough..." rationalization. It won't fly here. You either know it happens for a fact and can prove it, or it's mere assumption and not enough to base a strong argument on. That people challenge you on it does not make them "fanboys". It does, however, make them not gullible enough to accept any such statement simply because you said it's so.
I believe that is the way most people see the situation and is why they are generally referred to - across the industry, not just with LoTRO - as free updates. Up until you came into this thread and said they weren't free, I have never heard anyone claim otherwise.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Turbine has and history of adding new content to all of there games and that we all know it, since Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2 and now Lotro ( dont know about ddo havent been following that one ) anyway all of there content updates have been "free" and witch means you never had to pay extra to hit, just pay your montly subcription and you automaticaly had access to them. Even for exemple you stop playing the game for 6 months and came back you still didnt have to pay extra for them you just restart paying you montly sub to gain access to the game and voila. Turbine has no obligation to add this content if they wanted to and trust me there are MMOs out there that content update are very few and far in between take Lineage 2 or RF Online others are just simple patch fixes with barely any content updates. There are though other MMOs that do content update we cant deny that but at a very strict and regular intervales there pretty rare. And if take exemple of EQ2 that charges extra for some of those content update ( and if you didnt pay for them you were lock out of them )
So if you look at it this way whatever your status in game everyone equaly gains access wheter I payed for a Life time subcription or someone has the 9.95$ or the 14.95$ sub pricing everyone gets it and there arent lock out of the content. So in many way there are free and dont occur any extra charges. Its like Voip service providers alot will charge you extra for those extra services that arent part of the base service like, than maybe some will decide later on to add a new fonction to there service like I dont know access to online music for free than that is free content other providers could easy ask you for a surplus charge for that instead or a one time price for it to gain access.
Has for the missing content arguement, I dont recall reading in the manual about anything that I couldnt find ingame. MMORPG are all ongoing projets, show me one that doesnt lack a certain feature or content that wouldnt be added later on anyway. When you buy the box you get whats available at that moment with the possibility that they will add new content but they arent in no obligation to add anything if they wanted, Actualy we could get the screw you and enjoy what you got there. We are lucky Turbine decides they do content updates every 2 months without any extra charges ( witch is in a way free ) and probably make expansion that we will have to pay but no clear plan on how they doing them or when. It could have been easy pay 5$ every 2 months to get the content update or pay for new content with and expansion we get out every 6 months or ... you catch the idea.
And theses updates arent any small slugs eithers they added alot of new gameplay elements not part of the original packaging witch changed the gamestyle and enviroment alot and come back in a year once theres been 6 of those updates and see how much teh landscape may have change and even if you restart paying that 14.95$ even if you did pay during that period trust me you will have access to that content wouthout having paying backdues.
As many have said the content update thing at no additional charge is not unusual, in fact it is quite common. So while it is worth an 'at -a-boy for turbine for following up on their pre-release promise to update the game it is no, as the OP says, something "no other" developer does. It is as much a part of the predominant MMO model as the $15 subscription so, in essence, LotRO is on par with the standard good MMOs of the past and present have set in terms of updates and such.
Fanboys, haters, and reasonable folk aside I think this thread speaks for itself in terms of the issue of the OP and the greater issue of the rapid attacks fans of LotRO lay on anyone who doesn't praise the game and praise Turbine. The ridiculous claims of free expansions and the personal attacks make it clear that the LotRO fanboys are just completely detached from reality. Continue making wild and ridiculous claims relating to the invisioned supuriority you see in regards to LotRO and Turbine and you will continue to attract combative commentary from people who disagree and you will continue to EARN the title of fanboy.
Show me any other compagnie thought that actualy do regular content update on a regular basis to witch know exactly when and what to expect, we already know for october that book 11 is coming witch the main feature will be housing with 2 new areas and that just a tibit of info for now and we already know about book 12 witch we can be sure of be out December and we already know that its going to be about costumization of your char the main theme for it. thats what set turbine apart, there not and rarely any other compagnies that offers a serious road map of there content update that are always precise. Most are always last minute things that you get to learn about when they really want to give it out. I chalenge our nice AgtSmith to show me a content update schedule from another MMO that have posted info on there next content update for the next several months to come?
I am playing LOTRO at the moment and i can tell you the reason for the updates, there are huge gaps in quests for higher levels.
i would rather have more quests for lvl 40's than sodding chicken play. i have been playing since beta and took a month off with illness, when i came back i was excited by the prospect of another update but it is a huge let down.
Not just me who is disapointed either, try checking the LOTRO forums for the complaints about this latest update and the lack of quests for the 40's.
When I started this game I was looking forward to it in a big way but the constant crap that comes out of the mouths of the community managers and devs is beyond belief.
I even paid for a 6 month sub which i will be leaving early because i refuse to grind my way to 50 and then play as a chicken.
Show me any other compagnie thought that actualy do regular content update on a regular basis to witch know exactly when and what to expect, we already know for october that book 11 is coming witch the main feature will be housing with 2 new areas and that just a tibit of info for now and we already know about book 12 witch we can be sure of be out December and we already know that its going to be about costumization of your char the main theme for it. thats what set turbine apart, there not and rarely any other compagnies that offers a serious road map of there content update that are always precise. Most are always last minute things that you get to learn about when they really want to give it out. I chalenge our nice AgtSmith to show me a content update schedule from another MMO that have posted info on there next content update for the next several months to come?
SoE with SWG was similar - as I have pointed out many times SWG shipped without player creature mounts, without vehicles (speeders and such), without player cities, without several professions they later added in and allot more. EVE has been updated quite a number of times in similar ways as well. DDO, another Turbine game similar to LotRO in so far as it is quest based, shipped with a polished content base that was, admittedly, going to need constant updates. Other games people have mention also get similar updates. As the post above this one says LotRO shipped very polished but with a limited amount of mid to high end content - turbine talked about this extensively prior to release and is now following through - kudos to them for doing so. That being said it is just not that unusual as many have pointed out, and characterizing it as unique or calling them free expansions is just ridiculous exaggeration. Take PotBS (Pirates of the Burning Sea) a game I am anticipating now - there are a number of things that as of now are 'planned' but the DEVs have said will not make release. They are concentrating on polishing the included elements and will focus on adding other things post release. VG, in all its flawed glory, was the same albeit they where short of allot of stuff and what was included was borked at launch so they where flawed on both ends.
Look, it is a fair position to say Turbine is on the positive side of the content spectrum, it is fair to give them praise for delivering this content and following thorugh on what they promised prior to release. Turbine actually has a well established reputation for this type of thing. But at the same time it is not fair to act as if it is unique or mischaracterize it as some kind of altruistic or free action as it is not unlike what many MMOs do - issue new content to keep interest alive and keep the subs subscribed.
I am playing LOTRO at the moment and i can tell you the reason for the updates, there are huge gaps in quests for higher levels. i would rather have more quests for lvl 40's than sodding chicken play. i have been playing since beta and took a month off with illness, when i came back i was excited by the prospect of another update but it is a huge let down. Not just me who is disapointed either, try checking the LOTRO forums for the complaints about this latest update and the lack of quests for the 40's. When I started this game I was looking forward to it in a big way but the constant crap that comes out of the mouths of the community managers and devs is beyond belief. I even paid for a 6 month sub which i will be leaving early because i refuse to grind my way to 50 and then play as a chicken.
Huge caps? Hardly.
The first update (Evendim) added content and quest for the late 20's into the 30's. This last update added the Rep System/instances, some high level stuff in Evendim along with a bunch of stuff for people at all levels.
As for complaints on the forums.. they're not as widespread as you make it appear to be. Sure, there are complaints... but then again, point me out to a game forum where people don't find something to bitch and moan about.
Sure the game was a bit thin on quests in the 30's.. but that was known.. and Evendim took care of that. If you're running out of quests in the 40's... you either must of skipped a ton of them at lower levels or haven't explored the Trollshaws, Misty Mountains and Angmar along with the epic quests. You'll find plenty of stuff to do to easily reach 50 with no problem at all.
And also, you don't have to be 50 to play as a chicken. You can be any level.. and to be quite honest... it's pretty darned funny.
Too bad you don't like the game. Good luck on finding one that's more to your style.
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Turbine is not the only company in the history of MMOs that gives out free content. All developers do it to some extent. However, to me it's pretty clear that Turbine is on the generous side of the spectrum. I can't think of many MMOs that have gotten as much free content as AC and DDO, and LoTRO looks well on track to follow in their footsteps. You could argue that CoH and EVE online have doled out similar amounts of free content. Their updates aren't as frequent, but they tend to be a little bigger than Turbine's updates (of course it depends on what particular updates you are comparing, obviously). Other than that, I can't think of any companies that come close to Turbine's track record.
All of these games (CoH, EVE, AC, LoTRO, DDO) are clearly superior to the norm when it comes to free content, or content for the cost of a monthly sub if you want to split hairs. I personally would argue that it is "free" becuase many games that charge similar subscription fees charge you again on top of the cost of a monthly sub for content of similar magnitude. For example, EQ II charged regular subscribers for adventure packs that had only about as much content as we got in the second free LoTRO update, and less content then the last free CoH update.
To me anything I don't have to pay extra for over what I've already agreed to pay to access a game or set of games is "free." If i have to pay extra over my access fee it's not. I think this is the common usage of the term "free content update" when referring to MMOs, and the numerous links someone posted above show that this is also the way the term is used by the gaming press.
You can certainly argue that the way the term "free content" is generally used by MMO gamers and the gaming press is innacurate, for the reasons that Agent Smith has stated slightly differently about 40 times now. However, in that case the only MMOs that actually have free content updates are those that run entirely on donations, for example Kingdom of Loathing. Even Guild Wars charges you a box fee, so access to updates in that game aren't "free" either if you are going to get really anal about it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Turbine is not the only company in the history of MMOs that gives out free content. All developers do it to some extent. However, to me it's pretty clear that Turbine is on the generous side of the spectrum. I can't think of many MMOs that have gotten as much free content as AC and DDO, and LoTRO looks well on track to follow in their footsteps. You could argue that CoH and EVE online have doled out similar amounts of free content. Their updates aren't as frequent, but they tend to be a little bigger than Turbine's updates (of course it depends on what particular updates you are comparing, obviously). Other than that, I can't think of any companies that come close to Turbine's track record. All of these games (CoH, EVE, AC, LoTRO, DDO) are clearly superior to the norm when it comes to free content, or content for the cost of a monthly sub if you want to split hairs. I personally would argue that it is "free" becuase many games that charge similar subscription fees charge you again on top of the cost of a monthly sub for content of similar magnitude. For example, EQ II charged regular subscribers for adventure packs that had only about as much content as we got in the second free LoTRO update, and less content then the last free CoH update. To me anything I don't have to pay extra for over what I've already agreed to pay to access a game or set of games is "free." If i have to pay extra over my access fee it's not. I think this is the common usage of the term "free content update" when referring to MMOs, and the numerous links someone posted above show that this is also the way the term is used by the gaming press. You can certainly argue that the way the term "free content" is generally used by MMO gamers and the gaming press is innacurate, for the reasons that Agent Smith has stated slightly differently about 40 times now. However, in that case the only MMOs that actually have free content updates are those that run entirely on donations, for example Kingdom of Loathing. Even Guild Wars charges you a box fee, so access to updates in that game aren't "free" either if you are going to get really anal about it.
I won't argue with anything you have said other than adding that there are more games than just what you listed doing the update thing, as I said SWG got alot of stuff in the first couple months and even beyond.
There is a big differance between what Yeebo has said, and how he has said it, and the Op claims that started all this and the various other exaggerations that have been added to the mix throughout the thread (IE free expansions and such). Can we not stop the ridiculous exageration on both sides? lotRO is not the greatest game ever developed by the best development team in theworld NOR is it the suckiest piece of code to ever get released. It isn't another WoW (a unique phenom for sure) but it isn't another Vanguard. If we can deal in reality and stop the hyperbole discussions will get a heck of allot better.
Comments
Wanted to test out my new quote line.
Heh, cool. It works.
Avoiding a direct challenge to back up your statements again I see.
Why won't you answer my question?
I've leveled a request at you to qualify your view and explain the difference between a retail expansion where people *do* pay extra to acquire and access added content, as compared to a bi-monthly update where they don't. If, according to you, we pay for added content by virtue of the monthly subscription and it isn't free, then how do you explain the extra retail charge for an expansion pack? They both boil down to "more content being added" in the end, do they not? So how does the subscription fee cover one, but we're charged an additional $30 or more for the other on top of the monthly subscription? There's an apparent quandry there and I'd say an explanation as to how your point-of-view resolves it is in order.
Yes, I realize I'm a fanboy for requesting you to back-up something you've said. Just this once, though, indulge me. Be a sport.
I and others here have provided our reasoning in various degrees of detail. Why can't you do the same?
You've certainly demonstrated an absolute and unwavering certainty that the content updates themselves aren't free. You've defended that position to the point of calling us "fanboys" for disagreeing. You've dismissed 10 of many links provided pointing to other references stating the same thing.
With so much demonstrated confidence in your view as being "right", certainly it should pose no difficulty for you to draw a logical distinction between the two, no?
....
Now you turn around and say "it's not the point if they're free or not"? Who are you kidding? Did this thread just get sucked into the twilight zone since I last posted? That's exactly what a key point of this thread has been, since the very first page. You saying the content updates aren't free. Us saying they are. And you have the nerve to throw the word "obfuscate" around? Talk about pot and kettle.
It's the same old pattern with you. You make absolute statements, call anyone who disagrees with you a "fanboy", and make vague references to "proof" that you consistently fail to provide evidence of, despite repeated requests. You either change the topic or pull the fanboy card and simply continue on with your talking points.
Maybe in your world "your say so" is more than enough to prove anything you say as "fact", and anyone who disagrees is wrong. In the real world, though, people have to back up what they state as "fact" with actual proof... "because they say so" isn't good enough. The "fanboy" card is not an exemption from it either.
So if it bugs you so much to see people disagreeing with you so strongly, then my suggestion is to refrain from using the "fanboy" card when others don't share your opinion. Actually providing verifiable evidence of your claims when asked for them, or not making those claims in the first place, would help, too.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
LOL! Well, exactly what would you do with the Free Upates if you weren't going to subscribe to the game?Hmm... how is this analogy?
You lease a new car. You pay a down payment as well as a monthly cost for this new car.
2 months later the dealer sends you a set of new tires for your car completely taking care of all costs for shipping and installation.
The tires will only work on the new car you just leased
The new tires that the dealer sent you are a lot nicer and make your car go faster than the ones that came with the car originally.
Anyone who leases that same model car now from that dealer gets the new tires that you were sent, not the older tires you originally leased the car with.
So, are the tires FREE?
Well, I know that Smithy will blow my analogy off as Fanboyism... but what do the rest of you think. How does that analogy work with this thread topic?
Nope! They're not free.. because if you are paying a monthly finance charge for the car, that automatically includes anything the dealer sends you after you've finished the deal and driven off the lot. Even though the rate hasn't increased, you're obviously paying for the tires via the monthly finance charge. If you weren't paying your monthly charge, the car would be repossessed and the tires would be useless to you. Duh!
It's a fact that many reasonable people agree with me on this. No I won't provide links to any of them. You're a fanboy for even asking me to.
I'm so sick of all these fanboys all over the place claiming the tires are free just because the dealer provided them at no extra charge. No I won't provide links to any of the fanboys I referred to.
Fanboy.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No, the tires are included in the price you pay them to lease the car.
Your analogy is incitefull so far as I believe you and those arguing think of Turbine's updates as if they where as remarkable as a dealer sending you new tires out of the blue. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as Lexus (or whomever) advertising that a lease comes with this Lexus Pre-Owned Certified Service that includes tires and gas and washes and loaner cars when in for service and all that stuff. Good stuff for sure but all INCLUDED in the price you paid. Turbine said well before launch these updates where in the works and would not make launch but would come shortly thereafter - just like with DDO. Turbine has a history of doing this as do developers as hated as SoE (creature mounts added after launch, player cities, classes, vehicles, etc) - it is a good thing but not unusual and it is not free it is part of the subscription.
Because your question/challenge is a false one and because I am intelligent, reasoned enough, and mature enough to realize that knowledge is not measured by what links point to it. My opinion of the subject has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of articles in gaming mags that talk about this. My opinion is based on my knowledge, experience, and logic - not on what some gaming magazine says. Seriously, gaming magazines are known to be fronts for developer PR machines so what does that show anyways.
As for the subject here - I have explained why I think it is ridiculous to exaggerate the updates into something particularly unusual and I pointed out that you do pay to play the game and the updates so it isn't really free. I also mentioned, as did others, that other games do/have done the same thing yet you ignore all that and continue to attack and berate as if I was suggesting here that Turbine was the worst developer ever and LotRO the worst game ever. All I said, all I have argued, is that these content updates where planned from well before launch, they are not so unusual in terms of pay to play MMOs as they rely on re-ups to survive (SWG had lots of content added, EVE did and does, etc, etc, etc.) and that they are not really free because to get them you have to be a paying customer. I was even was complementary in my first post or two but still I get jumped unreasonably by the rabid fanboys.
Is it seriously so ridiculous an opinion to suggest that a game that you pay $15 a month to play is not giving anything away for free? Given the cited examples of other games that did similar updates at no extra charge isn't it reasonable for a person to say it is not a unique thing Turbine has done? If you cannot acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that anyone clambering about FEE EXPANSIONS and LOOK AT WHAT GREAT TURBINE HAS DONE and other such exaggerated commentaries is going overboard. Isn't a much more reasonable thing to say that "Turbine has been actively adding to the game since launch with 2 big updates at no extra charge." Isn't that allot more accurate and fair description of the situation than declaring Turbine is giving away FREE EXPANSIONS and doing something no developer has ever done and all that?
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No, the tires are included in the price you pay them to lease the car.
Your anology is inciteful in so far as I believe you and those arguing think of Turbine's updates as if they where as remarkable as a dealer sending you new tires out of the blue. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as lexus (or whomever) advertising that a lease comes with this Lexus Pre-Owned Certified Service that includes tires and gas and washes and loaner cars when in for service and all that stuff. Good stuff for sure but all INCLUDED in the price you paid. Turbine said well before launch these updates where in the works and would not make launch but would ocme shortly thereafter - just like with DDO. Turbine has a history of doing this as do developers as hated as SoE (creature mounts added after launch, player cities, classes, vehicles, etc) - it is a good thing but not unusual and it is not free it is part of the subscription.
Please answer WsiMike's question.
If SOE charges an *extra* fee for some of their updates - are the customers double-charged then? How is that not extremely infuriating please?
I know you won't, since it would only prove the total idiocy of your argument, so let me expand the car lease point:
I am buying the lexus at a price of 40k USD - say, 500bucks a month, for 100 months (cruel salesmen!). I have started the lease in June.
In July,: Joe Jack buys HIS identical Lexus for 40k, for a 100 months at 500 USD per month. In August there is a promotion for any recent (within 1 month) buyers: he gets a FREE set of tires.
Now - was that free for him or not? If it wasn't, why didn't I get the same tyres - I paid the same!! Did Lexus cheat on me?
No dude, they didn't. It was their decision. They gave the tyres for FREE.
(if the original promotion would have included the set of tyres WHEN we bought the cars, then MAYBE it could be argued that they were included in the price. But that is not what was given above an example - you have twisted it again to suit your dying argument, as usual....) Again - this is not a very good analogy as you are actually paying for the car (the hardware), and not subsribing to use it...
Face it and quit it, you lost. End of story.
DB (I know, fanboy...:)
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
And the content LotR is launching atm isnt actualy free,it's more like the missing stuff they didnt add at launch cause they had to rush it abit aparently.
In the end we always pay for new content, one way or another. Guildwars for example doens't charge subscription but you have to pay the expansion. In EVE you pay subscription but you don't have to pay for the expansion. But in the end we payed money
Same for LotRO, while you don't pay for those 'books' you do pay subscription. I like the subscription only option because I know I pay xxx euro's a month and get all the content there is. With EQ2 the total price (subscription + content fee) in one month could fluctuate. Thats also the reason I stopped playing EQ2 after my trial, I just want to have a fix price per month for all content.
I tried pointing this out, as did others - but all the while they where bashing for for not showing links they just ignored it. Heck, the hated and dreaded SoE is hated and dreaded because of a big update they did the NGE which was a near complete revamp of the entire game and that was a follow up to the CU which was another revamp and that was following adding classes, player cities and professions to go with, vehicles and mounts and all sorts of stuff monthly. It just isn't unusual for these pay to play games to add content over time, period.
Please answer WsiMike's question.
If SOE charges an *extra* fee for some of their updates - are the customers double-charged then? How is that not extremely infuriating please?
I know you won't, since it would only prove the total idiocy of your argument, so let me expand the car lease point:
I wouldn't say they are being double charged, it is just a gimmick though. Either they are being ripped off by being sold in game items they need/want which most people think of when it comes to this type of stuff (IE the super boots of kicking butt for $2.99) or they are just breaking the price system down to something they think consumers will find more palatable. IE no lnger do you pay $15 a month you just pay $5 but access to RAID areas costs $5 a month now. Is it free or not free or double charged or whatnot - that is for the assholes in marketing that come up with these schemes to argue about. To me it is simple - I buy a game like Battlefield 2 and patches come, new maps come, even MODs come. Do I think free content - yes, I do. It is free because it is provided in exchange for nothing. I have allready payed the $50 for the box and nothing EA/Dice does is going to get more money from me for BF2 so anything they do is gratis. In an MMO it is differant, I bought the $50 box and that comes with ONE month of play - so the DEVs have to get me to buy another month, and another, and another - so anything they do I see as in 'exchange' for that next month's subscription. And I think most people think of it that way this the famous slams in board like these about 'cancel if you don't like it'. Is it at no extra charge - I guess - but since it is not so unusual in terms of content after launch I think that is a bit uneeded. lots of games have done this and still do it. It doesn't make LoTRO bad or Turbine evil it is just unfair to say as the OP did that it is something nobody has done and that is it free since it is based on a recurring subscription.
But again, it isn't about the free or not free thing - the issue is why would you all argue so insultingly with someone who thinks it isn't free. Is it really that unfathomable a position that you have to go all 'fanboy' on someone about it? Seriously, is it even a negative position to suggest it isn't free because of the sub? Is it not fair to consider the OP claims and others in this thread against the history of these types of games where many, many games do the same type of content updates and don't charge for them (EVE mentioned, SWG mentioned, and others). Is it so negative and so hateful of me to say that Turbine was talking about this for months before launch saying certain things would not make release but would come shortly afterwards?
Why jump all down someones through for saying that while good, this is not that atypical and since it is a pay to play game it is not really free. how is that a comment that warrants the hate and personal BS you guys have been throwing on people. I will apologize for the fanboy label but that label exists for the very reasons I am mentioning here. I made a reasonable statement early on in this thread and it was not insulting to the game in any way. Yet because I didn't chime in praising Turbine the bashing of the unbeliever stuff started happening. All of this, all these pages, all the flames and stuff simply over the semantics of whether it is free or not. It is ridiculous and my point for pages and pages has not been about the OP anymore but about the overreaction of anything perceived as non-positive by you guys.
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oops
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The sarcasm was pointed at these things, not your opinion - whatever it is, we could not really follow it through the twists and turns as you keep changing what the topic is "all about"...
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Dude, the point is: there are different models
1 - you pay to play. with LOTRO (and EVE) you DO NOT pay extra for content (they are F R E E). Only difference is that Lotro's updates come every 2 months, EVE's come in in 6-12 months periods.
2 - you pay to play. Then, the developer/publisher charges you EXTRA for some (or all) of their updates. These are NOT FREE.
3 - you do not pay to play (GW). Naturally, you have to pay for something, so you pay for content ONLY. Thus, playing time is FREE.
Now, 1 and 3 are acceptable options, as you don't pay TWICE. Who is doing the worst way (#2)?
Yes, SOE and Blizzard...
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
LOL, the old "they are adding what was missing" idiocy...
So, in your mind, Blizzard was only adding the Burning Crusade this year, whereas they should have included it at launch? Bastards even charged a LOT of money for that "missing content"...
Also, by this logic EVE wasn't even a GAME when it was launched - they added 90% of the content after launch! Bastards!!!
Every time I see this ridiculous argument I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Exactly
ALL MMOS have free updates
ALL
Vanguard, World of Warcraft, Dark age of Camelot (drag'ons revenge for ex) , Star Wars Galaxies (chapters)
etc
LOL, the old "they are adding what was missing" idiocy...
So, in your mind, Blizzard was only adding the Burning Crusade this year, whereas they should have included it at launch? Bastards even charged a LOT of money for that "missing content"...
Also, by this logic EVE wasn't even a GAME when it was launched - they added 90% of the content after launch! Bastards!!!
Every time I see this ridiculous argument I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry
DB
You MR foaming fanboy fail at good argument and at life... please quit ... life.And maibe quit making arguments... what's WoW have to do with the free contents and BC ??? If EvE wasnt a game at launch what was it ... a desert or something ? Maibe im wrong and derilious but I remember when LotR came out there wasnt alot of content for mid level players ... and people were getting bored and quiting before max lvl.
Sorry if I accidentally hurt any of your pet games - you missed the point (and who is the "fanboi", then, hmmm?
)
It is much easier to resort to personal attacks instead of admitting that you have written down something stupid (and painfully unoriginal, too!)
Any newly added content is new content, in ANY game - let's just agree on this.
If you disagree- then you must accept my argument about WOW/BC and EVE as well - like it or not. That's logic. I know it hurts, and needs more brain than flaming, but I prefer it.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
That is just not true.
You always pay to play, with every online game. Server infrastructure has to be paid (not counting player made servers like in FPS games). GW has put this costs into the price of the game. LoTRO in the price of the subscription. The rest of the money is used to pay the staff, and that includes developers. And naturaly the investors want to see money also
Again, playing time isn't free. If all the money is dried up they got from selling the game they will shutdown the servers or release an expantion to get more money to support the server infrastructure.
If you still think I am wrong, please tell me how the developers and investors get paid IF all the money from the subscription is used for paying the server infrastructure bills (and GM's offcource ) and the new content is free. Just tell me, I really like to hear how you think companies which give out free content get their money from to pay for creating this 'free' content.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Turbine has and history of adding new content to all of there games and that we all know it, since Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2 and now Lotro ( dont know about ddo havent been following that one ) anyway all of there content updates have been "free" and witch means you never had to pay extra to hit, just pay your montly subcription and you automaticaly had access to them. Even for exemple you stop playing the game for 6 months and came back you still didnt have to pay extra for them you just restart paying you montly sub to gain access to the game and voila. Turbine has no obligation to add this content if they wanted to and trust me there are MMOs out there that content update are very few and far in between take Lineage 2 or RF Online others are just simple patch fixes with barely any content updates. There are though other MMOs that do content update we cant deny that but at a very strict and regular intervales there pretty rare. And if take exemple of EQ2 that charges extra for some of those content update ( and if you didnt pay for them you were lock out of them )
So if you look at it this way whatever your status in game everyone equaly gains access wheter I payed for a Life time subcription or someone has the 9.95$ or the 14.95$ sub pricing everyone gets it and there arent lock out of the content. So in many way there are free and dont occur any extra charges. Its like Voip service providers alot will charge you extra for those extra services that arent part of the base service like, than maybe some will decide later on to add a new fonction to there service like I dont know access to online music for free than that is free content other providers could easy ask you for a surplus charge for that instead or a one time price for it to gain access.
Has for the missing content arguement, I dont recall reading in the manual about anything that I couldnt find ingame. MMORPG are all ongoing projets, show me one that doesnt lack a certain feature or content that wouldnt be added later on anyway. When you buy the box you get whats available at that moment with the possibility that they will add new content but they arent in no obligation to add anything if they wanted, Actualy we could get the screw you and enjoy what you got there. We are lucky Turbine decides they do content updates every 2 months without any extra charges ( witch is in a way free ) and probably make expansion that we will have to pay but no clear plan on how they doing them or when. It could have been easy pay 5$ every 2 months to get the content update or pay for new content with and expansion we get out every 6 months or ... you catch the idea.
And theses updates arent any small slugs eithers they added alot of new gameplay elements not part of the original packaging witch changed the gamestyle and enviroment alot and come back in a year once theres been 6 of those updates and see how much teh landscape may have change and even if you restart paying that 14.95$ even if you did pay during that period trust me you will have access to that content wouthout having paying backdues.
As many have said the content update thing at no additional charge is not unusual, in fact it is quite common. So while it is worth an 'at -a-boy for turbine for following up on their pre-release promise to update the game it is no, as the OP says, something "no other" developer does. It is as much a part of the predominant MMO model as the $15 subscription so, in essence, LotRO is on par with the standard good MMOs of the past and present have set in terms of updates and such.
Fanboys, haters, and reasonable folk aside I think this thread speaks for itself in terms of the issue of the OP and the greater issue of the rapid attacks fans of LotRO lay on anyone who doesn't praise the game and praise Turbine. The ridiculous claims of free expansions and the personal attacks make it clear that the LotRO fanboys are just completely detached from reality. Continue making wild and ridiculous claims relating to the invisioned supuriority you see in regards to LotRO and Turbine and you will continue to attract combative commentary from people who disagree and you will continue to EARN the title of fanboy.
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Show me any other compagnie thought that actualy do regular content update on a regular basis to witch know exactly when and what to expect, we already know for october that book 11 is coming witch the main feature will be housing with 2 new areas and that just a tibit of info for now and we already know about book 12 witch we can be sure of be out December and we already know that its going to be about costumization of your char the main theme for it. thats what set turbine apart, there not and rarely any other compagnies that offers a serious road map of there content update that are always precise. Most are always last minute things that you get to learn about when they really want to give it out. I chalenge our nice AgtSmith to show me a content update schedule from another MMO that have posted info on there next content update for the next several months to come?
I am playing LOTRO at the moment and i can tell you the reason for the updates, there are huge gaps in quests for higher levels.
i would rather have more quests for lvl 40's than sodding chicken play. i have been playing since beta and took a month off with illness, when i came back i was excited by the prospect of another update but it is a huge let down.
Not just me who is disapointed either, try checking the LOTRO forums for the complaints about this latest update and the lack of quests for the 40's.
When I started this game I was looking forward to it in a big way but the constant crap that comes out of the mouths of the community managers and devs is beyond belief.
I even paid for a 6 month sub which i will be leaving early because i refuse to grind my way to 50 and then play as a chicken.
SoE with SWG was similar - as I have pointed out many times SWG shipped without player creature mounts, without vehicles (speeders and such), without player cities, without several professions they later added in and allot more. EVE has been updated quite a number of times in similar ways as well. DDO, another Turbine game similar to LotRO in so far as it is quest based, shipped with a polished content base that was, admittedly, going to need constant updates. Other games people have mention also get similar updates. As the post above this one says LotRO shipped very polished but with a limited amount of mid to high end content - turbine talked about this extensively prior to release and is now following through - kudos to them for doing so. That being said it is just not that unusual as many have pointed out, and characterizing it as unique or calling them free expansions is just ridiculous exaggeration. Take PotBS (Pirates of the Burning Sea) a game I am anticipating now - there are a number of things that as of now are 'planned' but the DEVs have said will not make release. They are concentrating on polishing the included elements and will focus on adding other things post release. VG, in all its flawed glory, was the same albeit they where short of allot of stuff and what was included was borked at launch so they where flawed on both ends.
Look, it is a fair position to say Turbine is on the positive side of the content spectrum, it is fair to give them praise for delivering this content and following thorugh on what they promised prior to release. Turbine actually has a well established reputation for this type of thing. But at the same time it is not fair to act as if it is unique or mischaracterize it as some kind of altruistic or free action as it is not unlike what many MMOs do - issue new content to keep interest alive and keep the subs subscribed.
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Huge caps? Hardly.
The first update (Evendim) added content and quest for the late 20's into the 30's. This last update added the Rep System/instances, some high level stuff in Evendim along with a bunch of stuff for people at all levels.
As for complaints on the forums.. they're not as widespread as you make it appear to be. Sure, there are complaints... but then again, point me out to a game forum where people don't find something to bitch and moan about.
Sure the game was a bit thin on quests in the 30's.. but that was known.. and Evendim took care of that. If you're running out of quests in the 40's... you either must of skipped a ton of them at lower levels or haven't explored the Trollshaws, Misty Mountains and Angmar along with the epic quests. You'll find plenty of stuff to do to easily reach 50 with no problem at all.
And also, you don't have to be 50 to play as a chicken. You can be any level.. and to be quite honest... it's pretty darned funny.
Too bad you don't like the game. Good luck on finding one that's more to your style.
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JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Turbine is not the only company in the history of MMOs that gives out free content. All developers do it to some extent. However, to me it's pretty clear that Turbine is on the generous side of the spectrum. I can't think of many MMOs that have gotten as much free content as AC and DDO, and LoTRO looks well on track to follow in their footsteps. You could argue that CoH and EVE online have doled out similar amounts of free content. Their updates aren't as frequent, but they tend to be a little bigger than Turbine's updates (of course it depends on what particular updates you are comparing, obviously). Other than that, I can't think of any companies that come close to Turbine's track record.
All of these games (CoH, EVE, AC, LoTRO, DDO) are clearly superior to the norm when it comes to free content, or content for the cost of a monthly sub if you want to split hairs. I personally would argue that it is "free" becuase many games that charge similar subscription fees charge you again on top of the cost of a monthly sub for content of similar magnitude. For example, EQ II charged regular subscribers for adventure packs that had only about as much content as we got in the second free LoTRO update, and less content then the last free CoH update.
To me anything I don't have to pay extra for over what I've already agreed to pay to access a game or set of games is "free." If i have to pay extra over my access fee it's not. I think this is the common usage of the term "free content update" when referring to MMOs, and the numerous links someone posted above show that this is also the way the term is used by the gaming press.
You can certainly argue that the way the term "free content" is generally used by MMO gamers and the gaming press is innacurate, for the reasons that Agent Smith has stated slightly differently about 40 times now. However, in that case the only MMOs that actually have free content updates are those that run entirely on donations, for example Kingdom of Loathing. Even Guild Wars charges you a box fee, so access to updates in that game aren't "free" either if you are going to get really anal about it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I won't argue with anything you have said other than adding that there are more games than just what you listed doing the update thing, as I said SWG got alot of stuff in the first couple months and even beyond.
There is a big differance between what Yeebo has said, and how he has said it, and the Op claims that started all this and the various other exaggerations that have been added to the mix throughout the thread (IE free expansions and such). Can we not stop the ridiculous exageration on both sides? lotRO is not the greatest game ever developed by the best development team in theworld NOR is it the suckiest piece of code to ever get released. It isn't another WoW (a unique phenom for sure) but it isn't another Vanguard. If we can deal in reality and stop the hyperbole discussions will get a heck of allot better.
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