It's not a debate for me either. I own a Xbox360 and a PC, and also have access to a PS3 (house mates). The consoles generally only get used for a couple of hours a week on average, & usually it's for a quick racing game stint or for a bash at a new rental game that's just come out - which we generally finish well within a day.
In terms of FPS games and RTS's, I also feel the controller really detracts from the experience, and really hinders the amount of control & skill you as a player have. And for that reason (primarily) , the only games I really get engrosed with on consoles are racing games.
The PC - it gets used daily. In terms of gaming, we are talking about RTS's, MMO's, FPS's, RPG's, Flash Games etc etc... and as for racing? Just throw in a $10 controller (or in our case our 360 pad's) and your ready to rock.
Add in the huge amount of mods, tools and customability(?), plethora of gaming genre's and peripherals - and we have a clear winner in my eyes.
As for the cost factor, the PC's do a hell of a lot more than gaming, and in my case they also get a hell of a lot more use and are therefore much better value. So this is yet another win for the PC - at least in my case; hell, it's not that hard to write your PC off as a tax deduction either, try doing that with your console.
With that said, I own both a console and a PC, and likely will do for the foreseeable future. There are exclusive games on each platform which I tend to enjoy, and I also like to leave my options open, especially when my favourite genre (MMO's) is in such a mess.
In general, for me the difference between consoles and PC is the sitting position.
I want to kick back on the couch and do some lazy low stress blasting? Its console time. I want to ramp myself up, lock myself in a darkened room, and totally immerse myself? Its PC...
Originally posted by markyturnip wow - that's a tough break.. why would the download make it harder to use mods/patches? It makes no sense. Oblivion without mods is bread without butter
Additional coding in the D2D game, which conflicted with the Construction Set editor and/or tools used for editing (Wyre Mesh and others). Why some mods have warnings that it was made with and for retail versions.
You can only patch D2D Oblivion with D2D Oblivion patches, too.
I do like the D2D version, no CD needed and it did run faster. But not being able to use any mod available, I don't use it.
In general, for me the difference between consoles and PC is the sitting position. I want to kick back on the couch and do some lazy low stress blasting? Its console time. I want to ramp myself up, lock myself in a darkened room, and totally immerse myself? Its PC... Both have their place.
My solution to this is what I call "The Lazy Station". Basically, I used velcro to attach a wireless keyboard and a mouse pad to the extra leaf of my dining room table. I sit in a recliner with this over my lap. All I really need is a mini-fridge full of guiness next to me and I'd be set
Man, I can't believe the outlook on consoles expressed in this thread. I don't get why you guys HATE consoles so much, they aren't that simple. When is the last time any of you haters played a game on a console...yes, some are stupid and simple. Some can be really deep and interesting. Both PC's and consoles have their "simpleton" games and their deep games.
And to those saying consoles are holding back PC gaming...I don't get that argument because the two really have nothing to do with each other. I don't know if you consider The Sims a "deep" game...but I don't. And I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with a console...
This really has nothing to do with the overall argument...I'm just curious to what your actual reasons are for hating consoles...so far I've heard almost no reasons and the ones that are there are just stupid close minded opinions.
For the people talking about restrictive movements, I think thats a good reason why PC and Console MMO's need to be seperated at least because PC's obviously have an advantage over console gamers. But it doesn't make a difference because if your playing against other consolers the fight will be even, plus if you use a control stick long enough you can still be pretty damn good....your aim might not be as fast, but you can still be as accurate.
Man, I can't believe the outlook on consoles expressed in this thread. I don't get why you guys HATE consoles so much, they aren't that simple.
Of course, you don't understand the HATE, because you think console gamers = PC games, and this is false.
No fanboy reply:
PC games have more config options, better responsiveness, more customice options, modability.. etc. So console games feel _dumbed down_ Why would I care If console gamers get games that will feel dumbed down to me? because some gamers will be designed for the "minimal common denominator". My PC has 4 GB of RAM. The XBox has only 521 MB. So a game released for PC and XBox will have small maps, to able the XBox to allocate all the map in memory. I will get *NERFED* maps because the XBox has soo lite memory. Controls? exactly that problem. On a PC menus can be more complex, because we have a mouse. On the console, you have a endless serie of menus and submenus, and submenus submenus of submenus. and after all this crap, the config options are tow "Gore ON/OFF" "Subtitles ON/OFF". WTF?. On a PC, If you disllike bloom, you can disable it, If you want a different FOV setting, you can change this. And the menu is two clicks away.
Fanboy reply (internet drama added for fun):
WTF!??? .. a game platform with 512 MB (XBox 360) or 256 MB ( PS3) ....??? my pendrive have more than that, and is a $15 thingie. How do you guys expect to see games with the size of map you have on a PC?.
Summation - Consoles are toys and are killing computer MMORPGs by trying to make all games appeal to the simpleton Nintendo crowd.
I really hate to break this to you but.... games ARE toys.
You can tell me about how you can use your computer for work and all that, but if you're playing games on it then you've just reduced it to a glorified Nintendo. It isn't like you bought that quad core, water cooled monolith that sports two $500 graphics cards (SLI of course) and about 10 gigs of RAM - so fast that the sticks have have their own heat sinks and fans - so that you could do your taxes and download porn.
It's a lot like that GTO that your creepy redneck uncle owns and obsesses over. He didn't buy it to haul groceries and drop the kids off at school. He bought it so he could take it out on the blacktop and open it up to it's full speed on the weekends. During the week he just polishes it with a diaper for about three hours a night....
Using a computer for gaming is like power tool drag racing. Sure, it's fun, but you just get the feeling that it would be a lot less hassle to just race a car instead.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but one of the biggest hold ups to MMO's on consoles is chatting. It is an online game afterall, the prime reason for playing is usually to play with other people and you really need a keyboard for doing this. Yes, you can use voice for specific things like grouping or raids but what about vicinity chat or guild chat. Or sending tells etc.. All the while actually playing the game while doing this. This means you need a keyboard/mouse combo. And at that point you're just using a castrated PC without install space, all the modding capabilities etc.. All of these things have been said before.
I've played some console games and they've held my interest anywhere from half an hour to several hours but my primary interests run in turn based strategy and war games to MMO's and both of these are done much better on the PC. I've never been one for sports games or fighting games both of which shine on consoles.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but one of the biggest hold ups to MMO's on consoles is chatting. It is an online game afterall, the prime reason for playing is usually to play with other people and you really need a keyboard for doing this. Yes, you can use voice for specific things like grouping or raids but what about vicinity chat or guild chat. Or sending tells etc.. All the while actually playing the game while doing this. This means you need a keyboard/mouse combo. And at that point you're just using a castrated PC without install space, all the modding capabilities etc.. All of these things have been said before. I've played some console games and they've held my interest anywhere from half an hour to several hours but my primary interests run in turn based strategy and war games to MMO's and both of these are done much better on the PC. I've never been one for sports games or fighting games both of which shine on consoles.
actually, those sports and fighting games work equally well if not better on a PC with a controller plugged in
well, if you want to say that all games are toys, then I say this: Console games are pre-school toys, and PC games are "big boy" toys.
Hmmm.....
Not quite accurate....
If we're running with analogies here I think.... Oh, that's a good one...
Console games are like an Air Hockey table and PC games are like Advanced Squad Leader. Both can be entertaining and have a surprising depth of play and replayability. But it takes someone truly boring and stodgy to play ASL even a single afternoon. Inversely, it takes a complete buzzkill to turn their nose up at air hockey.
It boils down to whether you'd rather spend your time playing the game or meticulously setting everything up, studying charts, spreadsheets and brick thick volumes of rules. Seriously, I spent two hours tweaking the video settings of Unreal Tournament 3 to get the just the right level of performance and looks. With a console, I wouldn't have had to go through all that.
Wanting to jump into a game and not be buried under information overload doesn't make you stupid. On the other hand, wanting to dick with the settings for hours, download and dance through hours of patches and then be confronted with a UI just shy of Microsoft Access just might be a sign that you aren't smart but desperately want to feel smart. Kinda pitiful actually...
All I'm going to say is watch that video and you'll begin to understand. It's the 'no button rogue' video, mostly just for kicks really. It shows that with no hotkeys at all you can still kill people with a keyboard.
edit: relevant due to the fact that it's not something you can do with a gamepad nor can you even make your own videos like this on a console to begin with. If console mmos take over, where will the huge e-peen crowd get their fix of posting sweet pvp vids?
well, if you want to say that all games are toys, then I say this: Console games are pre-school toys, and PC games are "big boy" toys.
Hmmm.....
Not quite accurate....
If we're running with analogies here I think.... Oh, that's a good one...
Console games are like an Air Hockey table and PC games are like Advanced Squad Leader. Both can be entertaining and have a surprising depth of play and replayability. But it takes someone truly boring and stodgy to play ASL even a single afternoon. Inversely, it takes a complete buzzkill to turn their nose up at air hockey.
It boils down to whether you'd rather spend your time playing the game or meticulously setting everything up, studying charts, spreadsheets and brick thick volumes of rules. Seriously, I spent two hours tweaking the video settings of Unreal Tournament 3 to get the just the right level of performance and looks. With a console, I wouldn't have had to go through all that.
Wanting to jump into a game and not be buried under information overload doesn't make you stupid. On the other hand, wanting to dick with the settings for hours, download and dance through hours of patches and then be confronted with a UI just shy of Microsoft Access just might be a sign that you aren't smart but desperately want to feel smart. Kinda pitiful actually...
yeah you're totally right man, when ever I get a game for my pc, I spend at least 8 hours in ini files tweaking graphics.
I sure do wish it was as simple as going into options and spending two minutes setting up the graphics resoultion and texture settings. But no, you got it right, it takes hours of spread sheets and tweaking.
You're the definition of a fanboy, one that really grasps at straws too.
Well so do I, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is the degradation of an entire genre.
According to alot of people WoW is the degredation of an entire genre and its on the pc. People can argue all they want but consoles are the future of gaming the facts don't lie. I am a pc player as much if not more than a console gamer but even I can see that.
All I'm going to say is watch that video and you'll begin to understand. It's the 'no button rogue' video, mostly just for kicks really. It shows that with no hotkeys at all you can still kill people with a keyboard.
edit: relevant due to the fact that it's not something you can do with a gamepad nor can you even make your own videos like this on a console to begin with. If console mmos take over, where will the huge e-peen crowd get their fix of posting sweet pvp vids?
In halo 3 you can make your own videos in pvp. I am sure its not that hard to put a function to do that in console games or a downloadable program that does that for any game.
Having the OPTION to tweek your graphics files for two hours (horseshit) counts for nothing? I realize the 8 hour guy was sarcasm, but it concerns me that the 2 hour guy was serious. Besides, you cant play Unreal 2 as Homer Simpson on a console. You can download maps, but you can't MAKE maps.
Consoles are like air hockey, and PC's are like the arcade where the air hockey tables sit. Sure it's fun to play airhockey, but sometimes you would just like a bit more variety.
Having the OPTION to tweek your graphics files for two hours (horseshit) counts for nothing? I realize the 8 hour guy was sarcasm, but it concerns me that the 2 hour guy was serious. Besides, you cant play Unreal 2 as Homer Simpson on a console. You can download maps, but you can't MAKE maps. Consoles are like air hockey, and PC's are like the arcade where the air hockey tables sit. Sure it's fun to play airhockey, but sometimes you would just like a bit more variety.
Right now theres not a lot of games on consoles where you can make maps for but in halo 3 and folklore you can make your own maps. And maybe in the up coming Tom Clancys End War.
Having the OPTION to tweek your graphics files for two hours (horseshit) counts for nothing? I realize the 8 hour guy was sarcasm, but it concerns me that the 2 hour guy was serious. Besides, you cant play Unreal 2 as Homer Simpson on a console. You can download maps, but you can't MAKE maps. Consoles are like air hockey, and PC's are like the arcade where the air hockey tables sit. Sure it's fun to play airhockey, but sometimes you would just like a bit more variety.
Right now theres not a lot of games on consoles where you can make maps for but in halo 3 and folklore you can make your own maps. And maybe in the up coming Tom Clancys End War.
You're honestly going to sit there with a straight face and think that the map editing on a console is the same as a PC? No freaking way.
Consoles are only the future of gaming if developers force it to be so. PC gamers (frankly there's more of us than you console folks) will not go quietly into -that- good night. You have to keep in mind that NO MATTER WHAT developers say their reasons will be, their ONLY real reason is that they can increase their profit margin.
Not to mention console games are a good 10-20 dollars more (new) on average than a new pc game to begin with. Doesn't make much sense if developers say they can make games for consoles so much cheaper, does it?
Well so do I, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is the degradation of an entire genre.
Correction: It's your perception that the genre is degrading.
I'm one of a large number of people on this site that believe that the MMORPG genre has great potential, but has yet to make a "good" game. If it wasn't for the community of most MMORPGs, no one would bother playing them. Right now, I can get the MMO experience just by playing Hybrid Heaven, windowed, on my Nintendo 64 emulator while bullshitting with my friends on Ventrillo....
Seriously, there have NEVER been any "good" MMORPGs, only tolerable ones. Making MMORPGs for consoles sure as hell couldn't do any more damage than was done when two college kids decided to make a graphical Diku.
Comments
What's worse is finding that your Direct2Drive Oblivion game can't use the latest patch, nor can some mods work with it.
The result is having to buy the DVD version.
After that I won't buy a downloadable game again. The price of not being able to mod the game, let alone use other mods, nixes it.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
In response to the thread title:
It's not a debate for me either. I own a Xbox360 and a PC, and also have access to a PS3 (house mates). The consoles generally only get used for a couple of hours a week on average, & usually it's for a quick racing game stint or for a bash at a new rental game that's just come out - which we generally finish well within a day.
In terms of FPS games and RTS's, I also feel the controller really detracts from the experience, and really hinders the amount of control & skill you as a player have. And for that reason (primarily) , the only games I really get engrosed with on consoles are racing games.
The PC - it gets used daily. In terms of gaming, we are talking about RTS's, MMO's, FPS's, RPG's, Flash Games etc etc... and as for racing? Just throw in a $10 controller (or in our case our 360 pad's) and your ready to rock.
Add in the huge amount of mods, tools and customability(?), plethora of gaming genre's and peripherals - and we have a clear winner in my eyes.
As for the cost factor, the PC's do a hell of a lot more than gaming, and in my case they also get a hell of a lot more use and are therefore much better value. So this is yet another win for the PC - at least in my case; hell, it's not that hard to write your PC off as a tax deduction either, try doing that with your console.
With that said, I own both a console and a PC, and likely will do for the foreseeable future. There are exclusive games on each platform which I tend to enjoy, and I also like to leave my options open, especially when my favourite genre (MMO's) is in such a mess.
What's worse is finding that your Direct2Drive Oblivion game can't use the latest patch, nor can some mods work with it.
The result is having to buy the DVD version.
After that I won't buy a downloadable game again. The price of not being able to mod the game, let alone use other mods, nixes it.
wow - that's a tough break.. why would the download make it harder to use mods/patches? It makes no sense.
Oblivion without mods is bread without butter
In general, for me the difference between consoles and PC is the sitting position.
I want to kick back on the couch and do some lazy low stress blasting? Its console time. I want to ramp myself up, lock myself in a darkened room, and totally immerse myself? Its PC...
Both have their place.
Additional coding in the D2D game, which conflicted with the Construction Set editor and/or tools used for editing (Wyre Mesh and others). Why some mods have warnings that it was made with and for retail versions.
You can only patch D2D Oblivion with D2D Oblivion patches, too.
I do like the D2D version, no CD needed and it did run faster. But not being able to use any mod available, I don't use it.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Man, I can't believe the outlook on consoles expressed in this thread. I don't get why you guys HATE consoles so much, they aren't that simple. When is the last time any of you haters played a game on a console...yes, some are stupid and simple. Some can be really deep and interesting. Both PC's and consoles have their "simpleton" games and their deep games.
And to those saying consoles are holding back PC gaming...I don't get that argument because the two really have nothing to do with each other. I don't know if you consider The Sims a "deep" game...but I don't. And I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with a console...
This really has nothing to do with the overall argument...I'm just curious to what your actual reasons are for hating consoles...so far I've heard almost no reasons and the ones that are there are just stupid close minded opinions.
For the people talking about restrictive movements, I think thats a good reason why PC and Console MMO's need to be seperated at least because PC's obviously have an advantage over console gamers. But it doesn't make a difference because if your playing against other consolers the fight will be even, plus if you use a control stick long enough you can still be pretty damn good....your aim might not be as fast, but you can still be as accurate.
Of course, you don't understand the HATE, because you think console gamers = PC games, and this is false.
No fanboy reply:
PC games have more config options, better responsiveness, more customice options, modability.. etc. So console games feel _dumbed down_ Why would I care If console gamers get games that will feel dumbed down to me? because some gamers will be designed for the "minimal common denominator". My PC has 4 GB of RAM. The XBox has only 521 MB. So a game released for PC and XBox will have small maps, to able the XBox to allocate all the map in memory. I will get *NERFED* maps because the XBox has soo lite memory. Controls? exactly that problem. On a PC menus can be more complex, because we have a mouse. On the console, you have a endless serie of menus and submenus, and submenus submenus of submenus. and after all this crap, the config options are tow "Gore ON/OFF" "Subtitles ON/OFF". WTF?. On a PC, If you disllike bloom, you can disable it, If you want a different FOV setting, you can change this. And the menu is two clicks away.
Fanboy reply (internet drama added for fun):
WTF!??? .. a game platform with 512 MB (XBox 360) or 256 MB ( PS3) ....??? my pendrive have more than that, and is a $15 thingie. How do you guys expect to see games with the size of map you have on a PC?.
I really hate to break this to you but.... games ARE toys.
You can tell me about how you can use your computer for work and all that, but if you're playing games on it then you've just reduced it to a glorified Nintendo. It isn't like you bought that quad core, water cooled monolith that sports two $500 graphics cards (SLI of course) and about 10 gigs of RAM - so fast that the sticks have have their own heat sinks and fans - so that you could do your taxes and download porn.
It's a lot like that GTO that your creepy redneck uncle owns and obsesses over. He didn't buy it to haul groceries and drop the kids off at school. He bought it so he could take it out on the blacktop and open it up to it's full speed on the weekends. During the week he just polishes it with a diaper for about three hours a night....
Using a computer for gaming is like power tool drag racing. Sure, it's fun, but you just get the feeling that it would be a lot less hassle to just race a car instead.
well, if you want to say that all games are toys, then I say this:
Console games are pre-school toys, and PC games are "big boy" toys.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but one of the biggest hold ups to MMO's on consoles is chatting. It is an online game afterall, the prime reason for playing is usually to play with other people and you really need a keyboard for doing this. Yes, you can use voice for specific things like grouping or raids but what about vicinity chat or guild chat. Or sending tells etc.. All the while actually playing the game while doing this. This means you need a keyboard/mouse combo. And at that point you're just using a castrated PC without install space, all the modding capabilities etc.. All of these things have been said before.
I've played some console games and they've held my interest anywhere from half an hour to several hours but my primary interests run in turn based strategy and war games to MMO's and both of these are done much better on the PC. I've never been one for sports games or fighting games both of which shine on consoles.
actually, those sports and fighting games work equally well if not better on a PC with a controller plugged in
Hmmm.....
Not quite accurate....
If we're running with analogies here I think.... Oh, that's a good one...
Console games are like an Air Hockey table and PC games are like Advanced Squad Leader. Both can be entertaining and have a surprising depth of play and replayability. But it takes someone truly boring and stodgy to play ASL even a single afternoon. Inversely, it takes a complete buzzkill to turn their nose up at air hockey.
It boils down to whether you'd rather spend your time playing the game or meticulously setting everything up, studying charts, spreadsheets and brick thick volumes of rules. Seriously, I spent two hours tweaking the video settings of Unreal Tournament 3 to get the just the right level of performance and looks. With a console, I wouldn't have had to go through all that.
Wanting to jump into a game and not be buried under information overload doesn't make you stupid. On the other hand, wanting to dick with the settings for hours, download and dance through hours of patches and then be confronted with a UI just shy of Microsoft Access just might be a sign that you aren't smart but desperately want to feel smart. Kinda pitiful actually...
I'd liken it more to Air Hockey VS Foozeball.
i like pc cause then i can type fast an have sh*tl*ads of macros
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=36919
All I'm going to say is watch that video and you'll begin to understand. It's the 'no button rogue' video, mostly just for kicks really. It shows that with no hotkeys at all you can still kill people with a keyboard.
edit: relevant due to the fact that it's not something you can do with a gamepad nor can you even make your own videos like this on a console to begin with. If console mmos take over, where will the huge e-peen crowd get their fix of posting sweet pvp vids?
Hmmm.....
Not quite accurate....
If we're running with analogies here I think.... Oh, that's a good one...
Console games are like an Air Hockey table and PC games are like Advanced Squad Leader. Both can be entertaining and have a surprising depth of play and replayability. But it takes someone truly boring and stodgy to play ASL even a single afternoon. Inversely, it takes a complete buzzkill to turn their nose up at air hockey.
It boils down to whether you'd rather spend your time playing the game or meticulously setting everything up, studying charts, spreadsheets and brick thick volumes of rules. Seriously, I spent two hours tweaking the video settings of Unreal Tournament 3 to get the just the right level of performance and looks. With a console, I wouldn't have had to go through all that.
Wanting to jump into a game and not be buried under information overload doesn't make you stupid. On the other hand, wanting to dick with the settings for hours, download and dance through hours of patches and then be confronted with a UI just shy of Microsoft Access just might be a sign that you aren't smart but desperately want to feel smart. Kinda pitiful actually...
yeah you're totally right man, when ever I get a game for my pc, I spend at least 8 hours in ini files tweaking graphics.
I sure do wish it was as simple as going into options and spending two minutes setting up the graphics resoultion and texture settings. But no, you got it right, it takes hours of spread sheets and tweaking.
You're the definition of a fanboy, one that really grasps at straws too.
Im glad I own both
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
Well so do I, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is the degradation of an entire genre.
Well so do I, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is the degradation of an entire genre.
According to alot of people WoW is the degredation of an entire genre and its on the pc. People can argue all they want but consoles are the future of gaming the facts don't lie. I am a pc player as much if not more than a console gamer but even I can see that.
No signature, I don't have a pen
In halo 3 you can make your own videos in pvp. I am sure its not that hard to put a function to do that in console games or a downloadable program that does that for any game.
Having the OPTION to tweek your graphics files for two hours (horseshit) counts for nothing? I realize the 8 hour guy was sarcasm, but it concerns me that the 2 hour guy was serious. Besides, you cant play Unreal 2 as Homer Simpson on a console. You can download maps, but you can't MAKE maps.
Consoles are like air hockey, and PC's are like the arcade where the air hockey tables sit. Sure it's fun to play airhockey, but sometimes you would just like a bit more variety.
Right now theres not a lot of games on consoles where you can make maps for but in halo 3 and folklore you can make your own maps. And maybe in the up coming Tom Clancys End War.
Right now theres not a lot of games on consoles where you can make maps for but in halo 3 and folklore you can make your own maps. And maybe in the up coming Tom Clancys End War.
You're honestly going to sit there with a straight face and think that the map editing on a console is the same as a PC? No freaking way.Consoles are only the future of gaming if developers force it to be so. PC gamers (frankly there's more of us than you console folks) will not go quietly into -that- good night. You have to keep in mind that NO MATTER WHAT developers say their reasons will be, their ONLY real reason is that they can increase their profit margin.
Not to mention console games are a good 10-20 dollars more (new) on average than a new pc game to begin with. Doesn't make much sense if developers say they can make games for consoles so much cheaper, does it?
Well so do I, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is the degradation of an entire genre.
Correction: It's your perception that the genre is degrading.
I'm one of a large number of people on this site that believe that the MMORPG genre has great potential, but has yet to make a "good" game. If it wasn't for the community of most MMORPGs, no one would bother playing them. Right now, I can get the MMO experience just by playing Hybrid Heaven, windowed, on my Nintendo 64 emulator while bullshitting with my friends on Ventrillo....
Okay, so I won't have the "joy" of suicidal douche bags wiping the whole team, but I think you get the idea.
Maybe it's because I've been playing video games waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy longer than you have, or maybe it's just the fact that I realize that complexity doesn't equal depth, that allows me to see this genre as the repetitive grindfest that it is.
Seriously, there have NEVER been any "good" MMORPGs, only tolerable ones. Making MMORPGs for consoles sure as hell couldn't do any more damage than was done when two college kids decided to make a graphical Diku.