Originally posted by remusus03 Heard of EvE-Online? one server 42k players , one system of great fleet battles reaches around 500-600 players...if not Fleet Battles come to JITA , eve started around 2003 june or something not quiet sure but see wher it stands now? still on the TOP 5 and where is WoW?
Uh? WOW has 40x more subscribers than Eve. You may like Eve but it is no where close to the commercial successs that WOW is. Heck, even AOC sold more boxes in the first week than Eve has subscribers. LOTR also has more subscribers.
I think you missed Remusus's point: Eve is massive in the number of concurrent players online at any given time. Whereas most MMOs disperse their populations across several servers, CCP only has one. When you sign-on to Eve you'll be playing with 20K+ players.
Not to get off point here, but Eve is the only model that makes sense from an FFA PvP perspective. Having an open, congruous environment allows players to create and enforce politics.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Some pretty ignorant posts on this thread. Just for your edification, a small company named Turbine brought out a game called Asheron's Call which featured a massive world with more dungeons than any game out there today yet and it had almost no lag even playing it on dial up and it entailed very little zoning. So don't try to tell me Funcom coded AoC with small areas and heavy instancing the way it did to avoid lag, If you think LOTR is boring don't even bother with AoC, it is going to lead the market as the most boring game todate, bar none. Why do you think so many people complain about Wow, there is so little challenge in the game. Funcom took it another step farther and removed ALL challenge from the game. Funcom has proven again they are a minor developer in the field and really do not understand the genre.
Well lets see millions are still playing the game. Also anyone who pays attention knows that gamers today turn on a game very quickly once they have played it for a long time and are bored of it, its called being fickle! Funny thing is I don't even play the game, I am just tired of all the backstabbing from long time players who have used the game up, not saying you are one of them.
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games. The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
Eve is an PvP niche game. PvP is meaningless if there isn't enough roadkill to go after. PvE gaming that's more solo friendly doesn't need 20k players on a server to be meaningful (or waste an hour waiting for a group to form to raid some same o' same dungeon). 10 players is enough.
Truth is every game, even sandbox types, are linear. It has to be to program it -- every action in a game is scripted. The illusion of non-linear is the hallmark to reach.
AoC is a bust. Even the PVP (which I am not interested in) is stupid. I don't see this thing making it. Could be wrong, but I don't think so. It's thin and transparent. Linear and grossly un-compelling. I am totally bored already.
Just trying to put a little distance ... ... Between causes and effects
I really wanted to get into EVE, but for the sake of sounding like a simpleton, it really does take to damn long to do anything. From what I could tell its just mine and blow things up. Maybe I missed something. Tabula Rasa has my ADD induced short attention span. Plus I work 250 hours a month so I need something that I dont have to play for hours to do anything.
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
The future or the now?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
The future or the now?
The Now.
Future games will only require you to log in and hit the 'I Win' button.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I'm just going to hilight those words from your post: "virtual simulation", because they strike me as odd, especially when applied to AO - a game that I played intensively for a couple years. So I'm going to take it as an example, but I don't think the other oldies you mentioned are much better about that particular point.
I fail to see what exactly it is that you think AO is a simulation of. Is there an ecosystem simulation in there that I somehow missed? Is there some kind of social interaction simulation where NPC do actual stuff, that a player can interfere with, or affect in some way?
Is there something making the world evolve and change over time?
Because what I remember are mobs wandering aimlessly, respawning when killed, and... That's pretty much all of it. Nothing complex, either. I don't really get where is that "complexity" in AO that you're raving about.
Take wow, remove the quests, and you have AO (random assemblages of rooms filled with random mobs and an object to click somewhere don't count as quests).
Please, please don't tell me that it's the character development system with its hundred of skills (most of which were pointless), and the implants that you miss? Because if you didn't know the cookie cutter templates for those things for your class, it was about as exciting as starting at an excel spreadsheet for hours. If you DID know the cookie cutter templates, all you had to do was applying them. WoW just streamline this process by avoiding to present the player with a seemingly large amount of possible choices where only a handful of them are actually useful.
WoW doesn't remove anything from such a game, it merely demonstrate a certain way to build an actual game on top of something like AO.
I do agree that there are probably some other, perhaps more open-ended and sandboxish direction that could be taken than WoW, but old games like AO weren't it. They weren't much of anything, compared to current games. The universe of AO is actually pretty nice and there is something enticing about it, but I never could pull myself to play AO again after WoW - there just isn't much gameplay in there beyond the random respawns, and AO's combat system merely looks like a rough, early draft of WoW's. There are actual, WoW like quests in AO indeed, but they don't suffice to advance your level, it's all way too diluted by the need of mind numbing grinding.
Now a sandbox game, that could be interesting in a universe actually running some kind of simulation that the player could interact with (and thus slowly reshape the universe). It could be an ecosystem simulation (instead of preset spawn points and creatures wandering aimlessly, you could imagine a world where you could displace them from their original habitat), or a built-in urban simulation of some sort that the players could interact with, or something like that.
But a game like AO doesn't provide anything that would be fun playing with as a sandbox game. You can kill things, and then they respawn. That's pretty much all that the game offers.
Awesome post!
Right, the old games weren't it, much probably due to the technological limitations back then. Nevertheless, they had it basically right in being open and sandboxes (as far as they were sandboxes) and there were still several paths to tread down, all of them sadly closed by WoW. Simply put, the real game hasn't been done yet!
"Ecosystem" instead of mindless spawn, that's what I've been saying all along! Again, only ecosystems could carry a Permadeath game, since spawns being merely flexible cardboard targets that come up again as soon as you've punched them down, it would simply be unfair to let a player get killed by something he can never impact.
To "ecosystem", let me add, "group behavior". Now, think of an orc holdout and connect the dots. What do orcs do? They try to feed, survive and procreate for one, and, secondly, they go to war when their numbers are strong enough. And ths they do in groups!
That said, let's just keep those two magical words in mind from the equally great post you quoted: "VIRTUAL SIMULATION". That's really what it should be about... get ready to adopt Lotus position... and all together now... OOOUHMMM!
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
The future or the now?
The Now.
Future games will only require you to log in and hit the 'I Win' button.
Both the future and the now. The trend is very clear. Even FPSes are getting easier.
Hmm .. Diablo is pretty much a game where you hit the "i win" button every 2 sec. See how popular it is.
The graphics that people want these days, cant (yet) be put into the MMO your looking for.
A massive world with no loading and awesome graphics means a extremely high end PC that no one is going to pay for. Wait a few more years for technology to get cheaper and MMO's to get better.
The graphics that people want these days, cant (yet) be put into the MMO your looking for. A massive world with no loading and awesome graphics means a extremely high end PC that no one is going to pay for. Wait a few more years for technology to get cheaper and MMO's to get better.
Alot of even older computers could load zones without the wait. The real issue is pings, server optimization, and lack of bandwidth. MMOs love centralized servers, which tend to be located in godawful places, so the ping is astronomical. High ping, high lag = more deaths and terrible gameplay. Then add when 500 are online, the database server (and even it's frontends) are stressed making it all worse. Distributed computing, with leased servers (like they're doing with FPS games now) in varies geographical areas, could improve serving the Massive side of the MMO moniker.
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
You sir , are an sheep or you are an idiot.
Niche does not mean fail, niches are made by the niche companies, smaller companies or even bigger companies, niche is a part of the industry and it remains that way.
50 products that are easy and are made for the masses.
10 products are challenging , innovative, fresh or not dumbed down products and have there own NICHE.
The fact is, you always have more mainstream products then niche , always has been but the fact is , you always get your complexer games also because they stay , they won't dissapear.
The market is a circle and sometimes there is more stupid products created ( clones) and sometimes allot of great products come out which means a great year.
It all depends. 2009 by example is a mmo year that allot of sandbox /complexer mmo's are released.
The reason why ou are a sheep or a idiot is that you don't know how the industry works .
Another reason is that EVE is successful, EVE is niche but niche is not a failure , niche just means that it caters to one or 2 groups and not the everyone. Niche can still outsell a mainstream product , it means nothing, it is just a term , however, mostly niche do sell below under mainstream but for allot of companies , niche does not mean failure. Smaller and medium companies live with these products, allot of products. Mainstream can sell, niche can sell but both can fail also.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
What is this nonsense about EVE Online having load screens post a screenshot please.
There aren't loading screens, but you can watch the interface and environment slowly appear piece by piece every time you jump systems. No they don't show the standard "artwork with progress bar," but they might as well for how long things take to load.
Between jumping stargates, acceleration gates, docking, undocking, and the oftentimes slow to respond interface, there is more time spent waiting for things to load in EVE than most other online games. (The first response to this comment will probably be "then don't take your 9 year old Pentium 2 and 56k into Jita" so I'll respond in advance that I have a capable gaming pc.)
Themepark games are what big companies are focusing on, easy to code, easy to control and easy to sell. And they all suck. For a real MMORPG, start looking for independent developers. That's where it's at.
Damn right!! Support Indy developers guys it's the only hope of getting this genre back on track, so that in the future that gem will shine through the gloom of crap like AoC - type games.
What is this nonsense about EVE Online having load screens post a screenshot please.
There aren't loading screens, but you can watch the interface and environment slowly appear piece by piece every time you jump systems. No they don't show the standard "artwork with progress bar," but they might as well for how long things take to load.
Between jumping stargates, acceleration gates, docking, undocking, and the oftentimes slow to respond interface, there is more time spent waiting for things to load in EVE than most other online games. (The first response to this comment will probably be "then don't take your 9 year old Pentium 2 and 56k into Jita" so I'll respond in advance that I have a capable gaming pc.)
Correct - my response is that your PC is NOT CAPABLE. there are no waiting times in eve if you are experienceing these your system is either not configured properly or you don't know what a 'capable gameing' system means.
I'm sorry but your wrong. I am a Veteren of Eve and I know what I'm talking about.
The longest I have to wait in Eve (when it's not a function of game design) is a less than a second!, for anything, and I do not have a top of the range system. I am an experienced PC builder and user but I think that is irrelevant in this case as Eve requires little in the way of tweaks to gain this performance.
Hmmmm...please cross-reference for me the data that indicts the main Vanguard developers as a drug addict? Not sure I have seen evidence of that in the news. Thanks for the info, if you can provide it....
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
Themepark games are what big companies are focusing on, easy to code, easy to control and easy to sell. And they all suck. For a real MMORPG, start looking for independent developers. That's where it's at.
YES! EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!
The future of MMO's isn't going to be big companies with a board of directors and stock holders to look after. Those people often know little to NOTHING about the actual games and what makes them work. All they see is $$$$$ when they look at Blizzard, get greedy, start the game and then about half way through development, get all nervous and jumpy because they want a return on their investment without understanding what they invested in to begin with.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The next HUGE MMO will be:
1) Skill, not level based. Stop limiting yourself! We, in Real Life, do NOT have levels and can change what we do when we want to.
2) Sandbox. Let people do what they want online. If they want to be a merchant, let them. They want to fish online, let them. They want to be a hardcore raider? LET THEM!
3) Made by an independant company. It's creativity, not dollars that will make or break a game. Dollars helps (REALLY helps), but ultimately look at how EQ got started. The boys had an idea, developed it, THEN big money saw it and bought it up. I don't mind big money getting involved at some point down the road (realistically it has to happen to really get anywhere), but I totally disagree with them screwing around with the creative and design process.
There's enough hardware, software and experience out there, there's no reason we shouldn't be seeing more indy development out there. Shit, I only wish I had the programming skills needed. I have the idea, but sadly no outlet to get it out.
Themepark games are what big companies are focusing on, easy to code, easy to control and easy to sell. And they all suck. For a real MMORPG, start looking for independent developers. That's where it's at.
YES! EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!
The future of MMO's isn't going to be big companies with a board of directors and stock holders to look after. Those people often know little to NOTHING about the actual games and what makes them work. All they see is $$$$$ when they look at Blizzard, get greedy, start the game and then about half way through development, get all nervous and jumpy because they want a return on their investment without understanding what they invested in to begin with.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The next HUGE MMO will be:
1) Skill, not level based. Stop limiting yourself! We, in Real Life, do NOT have levels and can change what we do when we want to.
2) Sandbox. Let people do what they want online. If they want to be a merchant, let them. They want to fish online, let them. They want to be a hardcore raider? LET THEM!
3) Made by an independant company. It's creativity, not dollars that will make or break a game. Dollars helps (REALLY helps), but ultimately look at how EQ got started. The boys had an idea, developed it, THEN big money saw it and bought it up. I don't mind big money getting involved at some point down the road (realistically it has to happen to really get anywhere), but I totally disagree with them screwing around with the creative and design process.
There's enough hardware, software and experience out there, there's no reason we shouldn't be seeing more indy development out there. Shit, I only wish I had the programming skills needed. I have the idea, but sadly no outlet to get it out.
One can only dream I guess.
The only problem is, you don't see many INDIE companies with $100 million dollars to launch a project. D&L screwed over all INDIE developers in getting gamers to finance games by gamers for gamers. Thanks to D&L, 99% of us would never consider giving money to developers for furture benefits in the early development phase.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Themepark games are what big companies are focusing on, easy to code, easy to control and easy to sell. And they all suck. For a real MMORPG, start looking for independent developers. That's where it's at.
YES! EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!
The future of MMO's isn't going to be big companies with a board of directors and stock holders to look after. Those people often know little to NOTHING about the actual games and what makes them work. All they see is $$$$$ when they look at Blizzard, get greedy, start the game and then about half way through development, get all nervous and jumpy because they want a return on their investment without understanding what they invested in to begin with.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The next HUGE MMO will be:
1) Skill, not level based. Stop limiting yourself! We, in Real Life, do NOT have levels and can change what we do when we want to.
2) Sandbox. Let people do what they want online. If they want to be a merchant, let them. They want to fish online, let them. They want to be a hardcore raider? LET THEM!
3) Made by an independant company. It's creativity, not dollars that will make or break a game. Dollars helps (REALLY helps), but ultimately look at how EQ got started. The boys had an idea, developed it, THEN big money saw it and bought it up. I don't mind big money getting involved at some point down the road (realistically it has to happen to really get anywhere), but I totally disagree with them screwing around with the creative and design process.
There's enough hardware, software and experience out there, there's no reason we shouldn't be seeing more indy development out there. Shit, I only wish I had the programming skills needed. I have the idea, but sadly no outlet to get it out.
One can only dream I guess.
The only problem is, you don't see many INDIE companies with $100 million dollars to launch a project. D&L screwed over all INDIE developers in getting gamers to finance games by gamers for gamers. Thanks to D&L, 99% of us would never consider giving money to developers for furture benefits in the early development phase.
Exacly, nobody is going to invest 100 million dollars when:
1) You don't know for sure if the INDIE company can deliver a skill and sandbox game
(it is not easy to make such a game, there are many ways it can go wrong)
2) You don't know for sure if there is a very large market for such a game
(you need a lot of subscribers in order to get your 100 milion back and make some profit on top of that)
In the end it all comes down to money and the chance of making a profit on it
Folks, take it from a person that's owned two businesses, ANY type of business where you market a product is a risk. That's why most people work for others as opposed to working for themselves, it's safer.
Companies betting on the sure thing, almost never innovate for fear of bombing. Unfortunately it's innovation that will save this genre, not destroy it. It's all one big gamble.
AoC is way way way too linear. That's my biggest problem. Do this, then that, etc etc etc, and that's about the only way to play. Grind? HAH..that XP blows..... .
The world may SEEM open, but caravaning and boating between everywhere gets lame fast. Something Vanguard did wonderfully was make you feel like you truly were in a large world. AoC just seems like a few villas and 5 - 10 large cities connected by subways.
Oh, and the newbie level quests that just make you run really #¤# (Censor) long distances are extremely unfair . So is the quest journal that caps at what, 10?
There are quite a few places in the world where the textures aren't even applied. That's just pathetic, honestly.
There are a lot of things to like about this game, don't get me wrong, but revolutionary? Not even close. Its just Oblivion the MMO with naked people and profanity.
Correct - my response is that your PC is NOT CAPABLE. there are no waiting times in eve if you are experienceing these your system is either not configured properly or you don't know what a 'capable gameing' system means. I'm sorry but your wrong. I am a Veteren of Eve and I know what I'm talking about. The longest I have to wait in Eve (when it's not a function of game design) is a less than a second!, for anything, and I do not have a top of the range system. I am an experienced PC builder and user but I think that is irrelevant in this case as Eve requires little in the way of tweaks to gain this performance.
My point is that just because there isn't technically a loading screen doesn't mean the game has no loading times. On my PC it would take around 3-5 seconds between unloading one system and loading the next, not counting the game-designed delays which would up that number even further.
Saying that there are no loading screens in EVE is really misleading, even if it's technically true, because there are breaks between every system that are functionally identical to watching a progress bar. I would expect a game without loading screens to have smooth transitions between zones, or a seamless world where you can transverse one side to the other without having to stop. Not the case in EVE.
Comments
I think you missed Remusus's point: Eve is massive in the number of concurrent players online at any given time. Whereas most MMOs disperse their populations across several servers, CCP only has one. When you sign-on to Eve you'll be playing with 20K+ players.
Not to get off point here, but Eve is the only model that makes sense from an FFA PvP perspective. Having an open, congruous environment allows players to create and enforce politics.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Huh? EA actually listened to gamers for once???
Hell hasn't frozen over yet??????
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Well lets see millions are still playing the game. Also anyone who pays attention knows that gamers today turn on a game very quickly once they have played it for a long time and are bored of it, its called being fickle! Funny thing is I don't even play the game, I am just tired of all the backstabbing from long time players who have used the game up, not saying you are one of them.
No signature, I don't have a pen
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
Eve is an PvP niche game. PvP is meaningless if there isn't enough roadkill to go after. PvE gaming that's more solo friendly doesn't need 20k players on a server to be meaningful (or waste an hour waiting for a group to form to raid some same o' same dungeon). 10 players is enough.
Truth is every game, even sandbox types, are linear. It has to be to program it -- every action in a game is scripted. The illusion of non-linear is the hallmark to reach.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
AoC is a bust. Even the PVP (which I am not interested in) is stupid. I don't see this thing making it. Could be wrong, but I don't think so. It's thin and transparent. Linear and grossly un-compelling. I am totally bored already.
Just trying to put a little distance ...
... Between causes and effects
I really wanted to get into EVE, but for the sake of sounding like a simpleton, it really does take to damn long to do anything. From what I could tell its just mine and blow things up. Maybe I missed something. Tabula Rasa has my ADD induced short attention span. Plus I work 250 hours a month so I need something that I dont have to play for hours to do anything.
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
The future or the now?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
The future or the now?
The Now.Future games will only require you to log in and hit the 'I Win' button.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Awesome post!
Right, the old games weren't it, much probably due to the technological limitations back then. Nevertheless, they had it basically right in being open and sandboxes (as far as they were sandboxes) and there were still several paths to tread down, all of them sadly closed by WoW. Simply put, the real game hasn't been done yet!
"Ecosystem" instead of mindless spawn, that's what I've been saying all along! Again, only ecosystems could carry a Permadeath game, since spawns being merely flexible cardboard targets that come up again as soon as you've punched them down, it would simply be unfair to let a player get killed by something he can never impact.
To "ecosystem", let me add, "group behavior". Now, think of an orc holdout and connect the dots. What do orcs do? They try to feed, survive and procreate for one, and, secondly, they go to war when their numbers are strong enough. And ths they do in groups!
That said, let's just keep those two magical words in mind from the equally great post you quoted: "VIRTUAL SIMULATION". That's really what it should be about... get ready to adopt Lotus position... and all together now... OOOUHMMM!
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
The future or the now?
The Now.Future games will only require you to log in and hit the 'I Win' button.
Both the future and the now. The trend is very clear. Even FPSes are getting easier.
Hmm .. Diablo is pretty much a game where you hit the "i win" button every 2 sec. See how popular it is.
The graphics that people want these days, cant (yet) be put into the MMO your looking for.
A massive world with no loading and awesome graphics means a extremely high end PC that no one is going to pay for. Wait a few more years for technology to get cheaper and MMO's to get better.
Alot of even older computers could load zones without the wait. The real issue is pings, server optimization, and lack of bandwidth. MMOs love centralized servers, which tend to be located in godawful places, so the ping is astronomical. High ping, high lag = more deaths and terrible gameplay. Then add when 500 are online, the database server (and even it's frontends) are stressed making it all worse. Distributed computing, with leased servers (like they're doing with FPS games now) in varies geographical areas, could improve serving the Massive side of the MMO moniker.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I have to agree. sure, it is a bit simplified, but that doesn't make it wrong. I would say the same thing.
but EVE is still going strong. the most massive of the massive.
the single remaining sandbox game
As long as there is EVE, there is hope.
Eve is a niche game. After so many years, the subscription is around 1/4 of a million, lagging behind even the newer games like AOC & LOTR. I do not think massive is the way to go. Games are games.
The market has shown that linear, non-sandbox games are the future.
You sir , are an sheep or you are an idiot.
Niche does not mean fail, niches are made by the niche companies, smaller companies or even bigger companies, niche is a part of the industry and it remains that way.
50 products that are easy and are made for the masses.
10 products are challenging , innovative, fresh or not dumbed down products and have there own NICHE.
The fact is, you always have more mainstream products then niche , always has been but the fact is , you always get your complexer games also because they stay , they won't dissapear.
The market is a circle and sometimes there is more stupid products created ( clones) and sometimes allot of great products come out which means a great year.
It all depends. 2009 by example is a mmo year that allot of sandbox /complexer mmo's are released.
The reason why ou are a sheep or a idiot is that you don't know how the industry works .
Another reason is that EVE is successful, EVE is niche but niche is not a failure , niche just means that it caters to one or 2 groups and not the everyone. Niche can still outsell a mainstream product , it means nothing, it is just a term , however, mostly niche do sell below under mainstream but for allot of companies , niche does not mean failure. Smaller and medium companies live with these products, allot of products. Mainstream can sell, niche can sell but both can fail also.
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the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
There aren't loading screens, but you can watch the interface and environment slowly appear piece by piece every time you jump systems. No they don't show the standard "artwork with progress bar," but they might as well for how long things take to load.
Between jumping stargates, acceleration gates, docking, undocking, and the oftentimes slow to respond interface, there is more time spent waiting for things to load in EVE than most other online games. (The first response to this comment will probably be "then don't take your 9 year old Pentium 2 and 56k into Jita" so I'll respond in advance that I have a capable gaming pc.)
Damn right!! Support Indy developers guys it's the only hope of getting this genre back on track, so that in the future that gem will shine through the gloom of crap like AoC - type games.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
There aren't loading screens, but you can watch the interface and environment slowly appear piece by piece every time you jump systems. No they don't show the standard "artwork with progress bar," but they might as well for how long things take to load.
Between jumping stargates, acceleration gates, docking, undocking, and the oftentimes slow to respond interface, there is more time spent waiting for things to load in EVE than most other online games. (The first response to this comment will probably be "then don't take your 9 year old Pentium 2 and 56k into Jita" so I'll respond in advance that I have a capable gaming pc.)
Correct - my response is that your PC is NOT CAPABLE. there are no waiting times in eve if you are experienceing these your system is either not configured properly or you don't know what a 'capable gameing' system means.
I'm sorry but your wrong. I am a Veteren of Eve and I know what I'm talking about.
The longest I have to wait in Eve (when it's not a function of game design) is a less than a second!, for anything, and I do not have a top of the range system. I am an experienced PC builder and user but I think that is irrelevant in this case as Eve requires little in the way of tweaks to gain this performance.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Hmmmm...please cross-reference for me the data that indicts the main Vanguard developers as a drug addict? Not sure I have seen evidence of that in the news. Thanks for the info, if you can provide it....
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
The future of MMO's isn't going to be big companies with a board of directors and stock holders to look after. Those people often know little to NOTHING about the actual games and what makes them work. All they see is $$$$$ when they look at Blizzard, get greedy, start the game and then about half way through development, get all nervous and jumpy because they want a return on their investment without understanding what they invested in to begin with.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The next HUGE MMO will be:
1) Skill, not level based. Stop limiting yourself! We, in Real Life, do NOT have levels and can change what we do when we want to.
2) Sandbox. Let people do what they want online. If they want to be a merchant, let them. They want to fish online, let them. They want to be a hardcore raider? LET THEM!
3) Made by an independant company. It's creativity, not dollars that will make or break a game. Dollars helps (REALLY helps), but ultimately look at how EQ got started. The boys had an idea, developed it, THEN big money saw it and bought it up. I don't mind big money getting involved at some point down the road (realistically it has to happen to really get anywhere), but I totally disagree with them screwing around with the creative and design process.
There's enough hardware, software and experience out there, there's no reason we shouldn't be seeing more indy development out there. Shit, I only wish I had the programming skills needed. I have the idea, but sadly no outlet to get it out.
One can only dream I guess.
The future of MMO's isn't going to be big companies with a board of directors and stock holders to look after. Those people often know little to NOTHING about the actual games and what makes them work. All they see is $$$$$ when they look at Blizzard, get greedy, start the game and then about half way through development, get all nervous and jumpy because they want a return on their investment without understanding what they invested in to begin with.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The next HUGE MMO will be:
1) Skill, not level based. Stop limiting yourself! We, in Real Life, do NOT have levels and can change what we do when we want to.
2) Sandbox. Let people do what they want online. If they want to be a merchant, let them. They want to fish online, let them. They want to be a hardcore raider? LET THEM!
3) Made by an independant company. It's creativity, not dollars that will make or break a game. Dollars helps (REALLY helps), but ultimately look at how EQ got started. The boys had an idea, developed it, THEN big money saw it and bought it up. I don't mind big money getting involved at some point down the road (realistically it has to happen to really get anywhere), but I totally disagree with them screwing around with the creative and design process.
There's enough hardware, software and experience out there, there's no reason we shouldn't be seeing more indy development out there. Shit, I only wish I had the programming skills needed. I have the idea, but sadly no outlet to get it out.
One can only dream I guess.
The only problem is, you don't see many INDIE companies with $100 million dollars to launch a project. D&L screwed over all INDIE developers in getting gamers to finance games by gamers for gamers. Thanks to D&L, 99% of us would never consider giving money to developers for furture benefits in the early development phase.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
YES! EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!The future of MMO's isn't going to be big companies with a board of directors and stock holders to look after. Those people often know little to NOTHING about the actual games and what makes them work. All they see is $$$$$ when they look at Blizzard, get greedy, start the game and then about half way through development, get all nervous and jumpy because they want a return on their investment without understanding what they invested in to begin with.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The next HUGE MMO will be:
1) Skill, not level based. Stop limiting yourself! We, in Real Life, do NOT have levels and can change what we do when we want to.
2) Sandbox. Let people do what they want online. If they want to be a merchant, let them. They want to fish online, let them. They want to be a hardcore raider? LET THEM!
3) Made by an independant company. It's creativity, not dollars that will make or break a game. Dollars helps (REALLY helps), but ultimately look at how EQ got started. The boys had an idea, developed it, THEN big money saw it and bought it up. I don't mind big money getting involved at some point down the road (realistically it has to happen to really get anywhere), but I totally disagree with them screwing around with the creative and design process.
There's enough hardware, software and experience out there, there's no reason we shouldn't be seeing more indy development out there. Shit, I only wish I had the programming skills needed. I have the idea, but sadly no outlet to get it out.
One can only dream I guess.
The only problem is, you don't see many INDIE companies with $100 million dollars to launch a project. D&L screwed over all INDIE developers in getting gamers to finance games by gamers for gamers. Thanks to D&L, 99% of us would never consider giving money to developers for furture benefits in the early development phase.
Exacly, nobody is going to invest 100 million dollars when:
1) You don't know for sure if the INDIE company can deliver a skill and sandbox game
(it is not easy to make such a game, there are many ways it can go wrong)
2) You don't know for sure if there is a very large market for such a game
(you need a lot of subscribers in order to get your 100 milion back and make some profit on top of that)
In the end it all comes down to money and the chance of making a profit on it
Folks, take it from a person that's owned two businesses, ANY type of business where you market a product is a risk. That's why most people work for others as opposed to working for themselves, it's safer.
Companies betting on the sure thing, almost never innovate for fear of bombing. Unfortunately it's innovation that will save this genre, not destroy it. It's all one big gamble.
AoC is way way way too linear. That's my biggest problem. Do this, then that, etc etc etc, and that's about the only way to play. Grind? HAH..that XP blows..... .
long distances are extremely unfair . So is the quest journal that caps at what, 10?
The world may SEEM open, but caravaning and boating between everywhere gets lame fast. Something Vanguard did wonderfully was make you feel like you truly were in a large world. AoC just seems like a few villas and 5 - 10 large cities connected by subways.
Oh, and the newbie level quests that just make you run really #¤# (Censor)
There are quite a few places in the world where the textures aren't even applied. That's just pathetic, honestly.
There are a lot of things to like about this game, don't get me wrong, but revolutionary? Not even close. Its just Oblivion the MMO with naked people and profanity.
My point is that just because there isn't technically a loading screen doesn't mean the game has no loading times. On my PC it would take around 3-5 seconds between unloading one system and loading the next, not counting the game-designed delays which would up that number even further.
Saying that there are no loading screens in EVE is really misleading, even if it's technically true, because there are breaks between every system that are functionally identical to watching a progress bar. I would expect a game without loading screens to have smooth transitions between zones, or a seamless world where you can transverse one side to the other without having to stop. Not the case in EVE.