no one here have UO OSI exp ? 6 years of hunting PKs on my side. where is any challange in collectors games?? even monkey can play it .... i have no fear in this games.. no adrenaline. no goal to reach... becouse all is about luck and time in this games... this games are like game-machines in bars... insert money and hope .... no thats not what i want.
UO veterans , mature community will rise once again. we dont want wow kids here - FUNKS.
amen brother. Most of these people have never played a real sandbox pvp game.
Originally posted by nikoliath I have to ask this, sorry, but: Have you ever played a MMORPG that is PvP-centric? People WILL be ganked until they quit. People WILL camp your corpse ( assuming you can recover your items ). People WILL go out of their way to ruin your gaming experience in the name of RP-ing a "crazed murderer". People WILL loot you of all your items simply to piss on you. Expect to see dedicated gank guilds that either find money or item dupes to fund thier killing sprees, complete with the best items. < this happened in Neocron. Expect to see murderous players with friendly alts enabling them to bypass any consequences, just like EVE. Expect to see the sub numbers dwindle much like PotBS, Neocron as gankers run people from the game. Expect to see latge guilds lord it over guildless and small guilded players.
I have to agree. This is all human nature.
good thign there are plenty of games out there that protect you from such game play.
I have to say, well done. 1 point for you for a well done reply.
PS I'm serious, well done.
one thing the trolls will soon realize is this game will succeed despite them.
This industry has been too chicken shit to make a real pvp mmo and have been riding on the Trammel carebear mouse on a wheel themepark of craptasic games long enough.
Now you can go play wow while others go play the game they want as they gank each other and dry loot each other and bring back all the love from the old days.
lol i love how noobs are going to buy the game then quit, makes me lol that they cant simply read the features page and make a descision that oh shit this isnt the game for me. enjoy wasting your money u stupid noobs, but i guess thats why your a noob in the first place, learn the game you play before you buy it, idiots.
i also lol when i read so many people on these forums bitching about the game. LOL!!! you too either a.) cannot read or b.) read it and are going to play anyways even though your going to get roflstomped daily
guess what people, pvp has two sides, winning and losing. get used to it. if you cant handle your loss's with your wins, maple story and wow is ------------>
Sir,
If you have taken any collage level course, request a refund.
If you are in any public school, please prepare to learn your way around cleaning supplies.
If you are un employed and living with a relative, you did not use the word noob enough.
That will be all.
... These are forums not a college application or essay. Ill type however I want, noob.
lol i love how noobs are going to buy the game then quit, makes me lol that they cant simply read the features page and make a descision that oh shit this isnt the game for me. enjoy wasting your money u stupid noobs, but i guess thats why your a noob in the first place, learn the game you play before you buy it, idiots.
i also lol when i read so many people on these forums bitching about the game. LOL!!! you too either a.) cannot read or b.) read it and are going to play anyways even though your going to get roflstomped daily
guess what people, pvp has two sides, winning and losing. get used to it. if you cant handle your loss's with your wins, maple story and wow is ------------>
Great job demonstrating the mentality and maturity level of the average Darkfall fanboy.
Because people love the idea of PvP in MMORPGS, but only if it is risk-free. Carebear PvP, like that in Wow and many other games, isn't worth bothering with. I don't even class it as real PvP, and just laugh when people challenge me to a duel - what's the point when there's nothing worthwhile to gain or - more importantly - lose?
A lot of carebears hate Eve Online because losing in PvP can cost tens of millions in game currency, as well as losing modules and implants worth much more than that. Losing in Eve can hurt your game badly, whereas losing in most other games is just a quick respawn somewhere safe. What a yawnfest.
Originally posted by nikoliath I have to ask this, sorry, but: Have you ever played a MMORPG that is PvP-centric? People WILL be ganked until they quit. People WILL camp your corpse ( assuming you can recover your items ). People WILL go out of their way to ruin your gaming experience in the name of RP-ing a "crazed murderer". People WILL loot you of all your items simply to piss on you. Expect to see dedicated gank guilds that either find money or item dupes to fund thier killing sprees, complete with the best items. < this happened in Neocron. Expect to see murderous players with friendly alts enabling them to bypass any consequences, just like EVE. Expect to see the sub numbers dwindle much like PotBS, Neocron as gankers run people from the game. Expect to see latge guilds lord it over guildless and small guilded players.
I have to agree. This is all human nature.
good thign there are plenty of games out there that protect you from such game play.
I have to say, well done. 1 point for you for a well done reply.
PS I'm serious, well done.
one thing the trolls will soon realize is this game will succeed despite them.
This industry has been too chicken shit to make a real pvp mmo and have been riding on the Trammel carebear mouse on a wheel themepark of craptasic games long enough.
Now you can go play wow while others go play the game they want as they gank each other and dry loot each other and bring back all the love from the old days.
And once again, the word "troll" is thrown at anyone who doesn't praise the game... even when it's not warranted.
The industry has not been "too chicken shit" (more typical "hardcore tough talk") to make a "real PvP MMO". MMO devs *want to make money*. That's why people start businesses... to be successful. And thus far, there has been very little proof that the results of a wide-open FFA, anywhere/anytime PvP system with full loot will be anything but disappointing. Eve might be the closest example of an exception, but it's not a fair comparison because the PvP is not "anywhere/anytime".
Nikoliath is not even bashing the game.. They're discussing what, as yllis points out, is *human nature*. That has nothing to do with the game. People will be people will be people, no matter where they are, or what game they're playing.
All that said, yes... those above-mentioned behaviors - in some variation - will be present in Darkfall. Count on it. Why? Because in every single FFA PvP MMO out there - going back to the oldest MUDs - that has been the case... to the point that players were driven away and the companies ended up toning down the PvP to stop from losing subs and, thus, money.
Meanwhile, all the people responsible for driving them away have pounded their chests, gloating about how "uber" they were for chasing away subscribers.
To further illustrate the point... It doesn't even have to be a PvP MMO for this to happen. I've played MMOs with no PvP at all where there were still people who would find ways to abuse the game system to grief and harass other players, driving them out of the game if they could. They didn't see it as hurting the game's subscriber base; they saw it as proving how "bad-ass" they were.
It will happen because, for a certain portion of people, it's the only reason they even log in. They are not interested in playing the game itself, or progressing, or joining a guild, or anything like that. They're only interested in being an ass to as many people as they can, because the anonymity of being online emboldens them to.
Yes, this will happen in DF as well - and likely moreso because of the very playstyle DF is built around. How can I say this? Because I've followed and/or played other PvP MMOs over the past several years, and every single one of them had those types of people in them and in just about every case, the developers eventually had to tone things down to stem the loss of new players.
And if you seriously think DF is going to be immune to any of that... Well, the hardcore fans of those other MMOs felt exactly the same way about those games. In the end, their "strong feelings about it" didn't stop it from happening. Food for thought.
That said...
I'm about 90% certain at this point that a portion of DF's following is shaping up to look like Shadowbane Part 2. I'm seeing all the same behaviors coming out; the "hardcore" posturing, the overly defensive and hyper-aggressive behavior toward anyone who says anything critical of anything relating to the game (players, graphics, developers, etc); the excessive use of "troll" and "hater" and "carebear".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
see Im a big big fan of open, meaningful pvp but the big difference between say, UO and Eve is item replacement & risk.
In old school UO you could go fight liches for a couple hours and recoup your losses .....you might even stumble upon someone elses misfortune and find a silver broadsword or something. In eve the loss greatly outweighs any gains you may get from the encounter.
I hope darkfall has a 'fast' item replacement mechanic where you run up to some place buy a bag of new gear and move on.
I'm not discussing human nature but I think the question are...
How many griefers will have the balls to play this way with their main character in a game without alts ?
How many will have the endurance to travel 10 minutes each time they are killed and respawn at a chaos stone to come back to the newbies areas and harass people ? Will enjoy being killed by other reds when they try to bank items in wildnerness undefended bandit outposts ?
How many will be sufficiently good pvpers to succeed to kill people naked ?
How many will support being chased by organized clans of both antis, rvr/gvg players and serious opportunistic PKs ?
I'm not saying this playstyle will be absent, but I think many wanabee bad guys will be disgusted faster than their preys. For a pure griefer a game like wow where they can grey kill with 0 chance for the opponent, corpse or cemetary camp without any consequences, etc.. is a far better place than a real pvp game.
Now to be honest there are other questions...
How many exploitable bad mechanics will be in the game to help griefing ? Will griefers easily succeed to make their opponents grey and remain blue PK for example ? Do the mob agro system support training ? How powerful are city guards/towers ? How many real exploits will exist and how slow aventurine will be to remove them / punish the users ? etc..
How many clans will suport griefing ? Will there be many and easy to join big clans with griefing as only purpose ? Will the game end dominated by a 800 members goon squad zerg of naked people, or will it be easy to get rid of masses ?
And without answers no one can say if this game will be very good or rather bad for griefers.
I'm not discussing human nature but I think the question are... How many griefers will have the balls to play this way with their main character in a game without alts ? The irony of that question is that the type of griefers in question don't really have "balls". They don't look for a challenge; rather they avoid challenge at all cost.
What they do is get powerful enough to beat new players with ease. They then hang out in lowbie areas, ganking/griefing players who can't defend themselves... so that they *won't* get PK'd themselves.
When they see someone coming along who might be a challenge to them, they either run away or log out. They log back in later "when the coast is clear" and pick up where they left off. This is how they've behaved in every other MMO they've infested, no reason to believe they would behave any differently here. How many will have the endurance to travel 10 minutes each time they are killed and respawn at a chaos stone to come back to the newbies areas and harass people ? Will enjoy being killed by other reds when they try to bank items in wildnerness undefended bandit outposts ? Again, most players don't hang out in the newbie/lowbie zones... They become more powerful and move on in the game to play it, ostensibly, as intended. The griefers/gankers I (and others) describe never leave those areas. They log in, prey on new or otherwise less powerful players... and then log out when they're bored. How many will be sufficiently good pvpers to succeed to kill people naked ? Skill at PvP would be a non-factor. They have no interest in "PvP" and will not go after someone unless they know they're an easy target. They become powerful enough to 1 or 2 shot a new player, then spend all their time in the starting areas. They will never go up against someone they think they could lose to... they will run and hide, or log out.
In Lineage 2, for example, the "career griefers" never left the areas immediately outside the starting villages. You never saw them anywhere else. If they were logged in, they were just far enough away to avoid being attacked by guards, but always close enough to make sure a new player was within range. If a higher level player came along... poof... they were gone.
They are the online version of your typical school-yard bully... only picking on those they know they can beat, running from anyone else. How many will support being chased by organized clans of both antis, rvr/gvg players and serious opportunistic PKs ? Not sure if I understand that completely, but if you mean how many will tolerate being chased down by more experienced and/or powerful players? None. But the thing is... how much time do you think experienced players are going to spend in lowbie areas hunting them down? They might do it from time to time, but most players are more interested in actually playing the game and progressing with their own characters. They're not going to vigilantly police the starting areas when ever they're logged in. I'm not saying this playstyle will be absent, but I think many wanabee bad guys will be disgusted faster than their preys. For a pure griefer a game like wow where they can grey kill with 0 chance for the opponent, corpse or cemetary camp without any consequences, etc.. is a far better place than a real pvp game. Again, they'll do as much as they can get away with. Again, most normal players will progress beyond the starting areas and not look back. Most normal players don't spend their time hanging around in lowbie areas "for fun". Lowbie/Newbie griefers/gankers, on the other hand, never leave. Now to be honest there are other questions... How many exploitable bad mechanics will be in the game to help griefing ? Will griefers easily succeed to make their opponents grey and remain blue PK for example ? Do the mob agro system support training ? How powerful are city guards/towers ? How many real exploits will exist and how slow aventurine will be to remove them / punish the users ? etc.. That remains to be seen.. but my guess is there will be weaknesses and they will be exploited. It happens in every MMO; no reason to believe it won't happen here. If it can be exploited or abused to a player's advantage, it will be. How many clans will suport griefing ? Will there be many and easy to join big clans with griefing as only purpose ? Will the game end dominated by a 800 members goon squad zerg of naked people, or will it be easy to get rid of masses ? In other PvP MMOs I've played, there are entire clans that organize roaming "gank parties"... but they're not the same as lowbie/newbie gankers/griefers.
Most of the lowbie/newbie gankers are lone wolves and never progress far enough in the game to join any such an organization. Again, we're talking about people who are not looking to play the game as you, I or someone else would. They log in only to harass, annoy and ruin the experience of other players. They're like those people everyone knows in their lives who seem to have no limits to what they'll do or say to get a rise out of other people, entirely for their own entertainment. Only with an MMO, they have the anonymity of the internet to hide behind. To put it another way... Real PvP'ers often can't stand lowbie griefers/gankers either. And without answers no one can say if this game will be very good or rather bad for griefers. There will be griefers/gankers, no matter how it's set up. They will always find a way to get away with it. There's not a MMO in existence where it doesn't happen in some way, and I highly doubt DF is going to be the first. Again... It's not the game... It's people.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It pretty simple if you don't like Full loot PVP then don't play. If all game mechanics work as stated then a solid group trying to fend off gankers will have an even chance just as the Gankers will have an even chance. It's not suppose to be about gear or levels if that's your mind set then you won't play for long.
Gear is going to wear overtime ala "Elder Scrolls style" so you are going to need to keep it repaired to stay alive or its repair or trade up.
Skills degrade overtime if not used regularly so you style of play will evolve all the time.
They said that PvE will be in the game but in a more real world context so you have to fight over your spawns and the spawns them selves.
NPC hordes are suppose to be smart enough to migrate when an area is farmed to much so you will need to hunt all over.
So old styles of play that have been done in other games will not be as effective in this. if you come into the game expecting that you "will" loose everything on you at anytime then full loot will not be an issue and you can get past that and figure out how you plan to get on in the game.
I think im going to have to agree with most all of WSIMIkes points.
It would seem one of the -rules of real PvP- is never attack anyone you are not certain beyond a show of a doubt you cant kill in one or two shots.
I have played a fair number of games with PvP options, and I would honestly say less then 5% of all my PvP deaths have been other then a steamroll kill.
Typically it will be myself taken by suprise by 1-3 players who are generally 2 to 3 times above my level. Usually from the time they spotted me and the time I was dead, it was less then 5 seconds.
About a 30% of the time the same people will kill me again in the same area, sometimes on my corpse run.
About 70% of all the times I have been killed I have been called names, told to learn to play or they have made sexual comments.
About 80% of the time I did manage to kill someone they returned with freinds and killed me
With that said there are some very cool PvP'ers out there, they just are the tiny minority.
It pretty simple if you don't like Full loot PVP then don't play. If all game mechanics work as stated then a solid group trying to fend off gankers will have an even chance just as the Gankers will have an even chance. It's not suppose to be about gear or levels if that's your mind set then you won't play for long. Gear is going to wear overtime ala "Elder Scrolls style" so you are going to need to keep it repaired to stay alive or its repair or trade up. Skills degrade overtime if not used regularly so you style of play will evolve all the time. They said that PvE will be in the game but in a more real world context so you have to fight over your spawns and the spawns them selves. NPC hordes are suppose to be smart enough to migrate when an area is farmed to much so you will need to hunt all over. So old styles of play that have been done in other games will not be as effective in this. if you come into the game expecting that you "will" loose everything on you at anytime then full loot will not be an issue and you can get past that and figure out how you plan to get on in the game.
And true, If you dont like it dont play. I will at some point play darkfall, the only question is if I will subscribe to the game or just play it for a month and let it die.
This is really the sad part of this game. A game dev finally makes something with ( were told ) many of the features we are looking for in a game and have been fighting to get, and the minority of players are going to try and make it as unpleasent as possible.
I would much rather love to see Darkfall become the game everyone plays. Then perhaps they would make more games with the features we as players want.
I have yet to play a game I dont craft in, and I cant imagine trying to craft when I can loose not only all my time, but my crafted gear to some roaming gang of party thugs.
If, say, an average player had $100,000 in his bank/home and upon death you lose about an average of $2,000 worth of items. Would this be acceptable? Or are you still afraid of losing this? If so, why?
We aren't just talking about losing some of your gold on death, we are talking about losing your items. For me it's an issue of not wanting to play a game with disposable gear. RPGs are driven by the the acquisition of shiny new gear. If all the gear is so mundane and unimportant that it isn't a big deal to lose, then it isn't a big deal to get it either. I LOVE PvP, but I would never play an MMO where gear was just a throw away item. And if that isn't the case, and the gear is still a major motivator in the game... I certainly wouldn't want to play a game where I could lose all of my to any random ganker.
Of course, this game has many, many more reasons to fail than the full loot open PvP.
If, say, an average player had $100,000 in his bank/home and upon death you lose about an average of $2,000 worth of items. Would this be acceptable? Or are you still afraid of losing this? If so, why?
We aren't just talking about losing some of your gold on death, we are talking about losing your items. For me it's an issue of not wanting to play a game with disposable gear. RPGs are driven by the the acquisition of shiny new gear. If all the gear is so mundane and unimportant that it isn't a big deal to lose, then it isn't a big deal to get it either. I LOVE PvP, but I would never play an MMO where gear was just a throw away item. And if that isn't the case, and the gear is still a major motivator in the game... I certainly wouldn't want to play a game where I could lose all of my to any random ganker.
Of course, this game has many, many more reasons to fail than the full loot open PvP.
Exactly my way of thinking about it.
If nothing means anything then why play? If all I want to do is kill other people then there are tons of FPS games out there which are free to play where all you do is kill the enemy and get no rewards from it.
I really don't understand being rabid over an MMOFPS when there is so much available that has the same features.
If this game is really that much sandbox then a man with a torch or flint and steel will be the most dangerous person in the game as he burns your cities and fleets to the ground and you get to start over again and again.
Because acquiring "shiny baubbles" doesn't have to be what it is all about, all the time. Accomplishment doesn't have to be about having your Guild all "Ztwel Thap content" geared so you can go now and take on "Phat Lewtz recquired content".
You all seem to either not be aware, or just don't get it because you have never experienced a game with this dynamic, the ganker's as it were, is a possible career path. A difficult one at that, so aye you will have clans of like mindsets (i.e. gankers) but it is only going to add to the feel of the real world setting with real world consequences that much more. You all have obviouslly never played a game that was so emmersive that it sucked you in and you get so pumped up, whether it is paranoia or excitment, or whatever and it is thrilling, adds SO much to your interaction, one with a gift with words might describge it, but it is best left to be experienced.
I think those that have, or those that have had the experience suffeciently described to them that they wish to also experience it, are the ones really looking forward to and hoping this game delivers, those that think that game plays dynamics are going to allow them another happy fun gankfest time are also, but are going to be suprised that it's not going to be easy.
MMOs today have little to NO risk what so ever, and it is teh suck, I mean there is no consequence for losing because so many people want it handed to them on a silver platter with gold trimmings. Agreed it will be niche, but DUH, the PvP part of the MMO community is already a SMALL piece of the pie to begin with. This game is for those that want to one, bring back something lost, some real challenge, some skill, and some excitement back into their entertainment gaming buck.
The argument is mute really.....all you folks that don't like it, or don't agree, or don't get it, I invite you to just try it (if it does release and delivers said features) and then make your call......you might just find that you have been secluded or had blinders on about what all MMORPGs are "suppose" to be about.
If you still don't like it then for the same reasons you stated, then get a freinemy to buy the accnt and game off your hands......./chuckle, or hell one of the opponents you faced......rofl
Because acquiring "shiny baubbles" doesn't have to be what it is all about, all the time. Accomplishment doesn't have to be about having your Guild all "Ztwel Thap content" geared so you can go now and take on "Phat Lewtz recquired content". You all seem to either not be aware, or just don't get it because you have never experienced a game with this dynamic, the ganker's as it were, is a possible career path. A difficult one at that, so aye you will have clans of like mindsets (i.e. gankers) but it is only going to add to the feel of the real world setting with real world consequences that much more. You all have obviouslly never played a game that was so emmersive that it sucked you in and you get so pumped up, whether it is paranoia or excitment, or whatever and it is thrilling, adds SO much to your interaction, one with a gift with words might describge it, but it is best left to be experienced. I think those that have, or those that have had the experience suffeciently described to them that they wish to also experience it, are the ones really looking forward to and hoping this game delivers, those that think that game plays dynamics are going to allow them another happy fun gankfest time are also, but are going to be suprised that it's not going to be easy. MMOs today have little to NO risk what so ever, and it is teh suck, I mean there is no consequence for losing because so many people want it handed to them on a silver platter with gold trimmings. Agreed it will be niche, but DUH, the PvP part of the MMO community is already a SMALL piece of the pie to begin with. This game is for those that want to one, bring back something lost, some real challenge, some skill, and some excitement back into their entertainment gaming buck. The argument is mute really.....all you folks that don't like it, or don't agree, or don't get it, I invite you to just try it (if it does release and delivers said features) and then make your call......you might just find that you have been secluded or had blinders on about what all MMORPGs are "suppose" to be about. If you still don't like it then for the same reasons you stated, then get a freinemy to buy the accnt and game off your hands......./chuckle, or hell one of the opponents you faced......rofl
FYI, some of us DO "get it", and just think it's a terrible concept. I'm not just talking about MMOs, but RPGs in general. They are games about progression, the more carrots they have to dangle in front of you, the more incentive you have to progress. No RPG I have ever played was solely about gear, but it is an important part of the games that I am not willing do without. Like another poster already mentioned, If I just wanted skill progression with no gear, I could play any number of FPS games on the market, and enjoy the combat more.
I hate to harp on this point, but the full loot thing is only one of many many reasons why I believe this game is doomed to fail... it's not even in the top 5, IMO.
I love hardcore gamers that scream for PVP full loot while praying for the items to be easily replaceable
This.
Can't really have it both ways. If items are easily replacable, it means they are worthless, and then you're back to square one, meaningless PVP.
I guess in EVE its fairly easy to replace a ship, but not so easy to earn the ISK to cover the loss of the bigger ones. It becomes a game of not fighting, or never fighting when the odds aren't good in your favor.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because acquiring "shiny baubbles" doesn't have to be what it is all about, all the time. Accomplishment doesn't have to be about having your Guild all "Ztwel Thap content" geared so you can go now and take on "Phat Lewtz recquired content". You all seem to either not be aware, or just don't get it because you have never experienced a game with this dynamic, the ganker's as it were, is a possible career path. A difficult one at that, so aye you will have clans of like mindsets (i.e. gankers) but it is only going to add to the feel of the real world setting with real world consequences that much more. You all have obviouslly never played a game that was so emmersive that it sucked you in and you get so pumped up, whether it is paranoia or excitment, or whatever and it is thrilling, adds SO much to your interaction, one with a gift with words might describge it, but it is best left to be experienced. I think those that have, or those that have had the experience suffeciently described to them that they wish to also experience it, are the ones really looking forward to and hoping this game delivers, those that think that game plays dynamics are going to allow them another happy fun gankfest time are also, but are going to be suprised that it's not going to be easy. MMOs today have little to NO risk what so ever, and it is teh suck, I mean there is no consequence for losing because so many people want it handed to them on a silver platter with gold trimmings. Agreed it will be niche, but DUH, the PvP part of the MMO community is already a SMALL piece of the pie to begin with. This game is for those that want to one, bring back something lost, some real challenge, some skill, and some excitement back into their entertainment gaming buck. The argument is mute really.....all you folks that don't like it, or don't agree, or don't get it, I invite you to just try it (if it does release and delivers said features) and then make your call......you might just find that you have been secluded or had blinders on about what all MMORPGs are "suppose" to be about. If you still don't like it then for the same reasons you stated, then get a freinemy to buy the accnt and game off your hands......./chuckle, or hell one of the opponents you faced......rofl
FYI, some of us DO "get it", and just think it's a terrible concept. I'm not just talking about MMOs, but RPGs in general. They are games about progression, the more carrots they have to dangle in front of you, the more incentive you have to progress. No RPG I have ever played was solely about gear, but it is an important part of the games that I am not willing do do without. Like another poster already mentioned, If I just wanted skill progression with no gear, I could play any number of FPS games on the market, and enjoy the combat more.
I hate to harp on this point, but the full loot thing is only one of many many reasons why I believe this game is doomed to fail... it's not even in the top 5, IMO.
I see your point which would not make this game for you by your line of thought. But have you considered the other aspect of joining or creating a clan with a specific goal be it pirating or territory domination. This world is supposed to be designed to be harsh so banding with a group will make it less harsh.
Will uber guilds take over maybe but racial alignments will make that a bit troublesome. Don't want to be part of a major organization then make a thief’s guild or forma secret society or let them take over and start a rebellion. It really is going to be a game that is going to take some effort to measure success and that will be done on an individual basis. I hope there are enough players that have open minds enough to try and build something in the game as is the intent.
I love hardcore gamers that scream for PVP full loot while praying for the items to be easily replaceable
This.
Can't really have it both ways. If items are easily replacable, it means they are worthless, and then you're back to square one, meaningless PVP.
I guess in EVE its fairly easy to replace a ship, but not so easy to earn the ISK to cover the loss of the bigger ones. It becomes a game of not fighting, or never fighting when the odds aren't good in your favor.
Completely agreed. The main problem the full loot crowd runs into is that more often than not these people seem to think stuff will be easily replaced.
Doesn't work that way, as you said. If it does then what's the point? Why not just play COD4?
Personally I would rather not have full loot, because then the chances are exceedingly good that gear will be trivial. For me gear is part of character progression, right in line with improving skills, professions, etc. However full loot will certainly make for many drama-filled moments, but I'm thinking perhaps maybe too many. I would much rather have pvp oriented around specific goals. Raiding a trade caravan, looting a town, sieging a castle, that kind of thing. Having a world where 90% of the time all you see are gank parties gets old really fast. Ganking happens, I have ganked and do gank to this day, but I don't make it a point to.
Personally I just don't want to see this game devolve into a gank fest where you can easily get your character decent to good gear and max out some skills in a few days. And to be completely honest that's exactly the kind of evironment a -lot- of the 'hardcore' pvp crowd seem to want. Boring imo.
However - I am all in favor of being able to fully loot what players have in their -inventory-. Whole different ball game, gear can then remain a meaningful part of the game, death still has meaningful drawbacks.
Because acquiring "shiny baubbles" doesn't have to be what it is all about, all the time. Accomplishment doesn't have to be about having your Guild all "Ztwel Thap content" geared so you can go now and take on "Phat Lewtz recquired content". You all seem to either not be aware, or just don't get it because you have never experienced a game with this dynamic, the ganker's as it were, is a possible career path. A difficult one at that, so aye you will have clans of like mindsets (i.e. gankers) but it is only going to add to the feel of the real world setting with real world consequences that much more. You all have obviouslly never played a game that was so emmersive that it sucked you in and you get so pumped up, whether it is paranoia or excitment, or whatever and it is thrilling, adds SO much to your interaction, one with a gift with words might describge it, but it is best left to be experienced. I think those that have, or those that have had the experience suffeciently described to them that they wish to also experience it, are the ones really looking forward to and hoping this game delivers, those that think that game plays dynamics are going to allow them another happy fun gankfest time are also, but are going to be suprised that it's not going to be easy. MMOs today have little to NO risk what so ever, and it is teh suck, I mean there is no consequence for losing because so many people want it handed to them on a silver platter with gold trimmings. Agreed it will be niche, but DUH, the PvP part of the MMO community is already a SMALL piece of the pie to begin with. This game is for those that want to one, bring back something lost, some real challenge, some skill, and some excitement back into their entertainment gaming buck. The argument is mute really.....all you folks that don't like it, or don't agree, or don't get it, I invite you to just try it (if it does release and delivers said features) and then make your call......you might just find that you have been secluded or had blinders on about what all MMORPGs are "suppose" to be about. If you still don't like it then for the same reasons you stated, then get a freinemy to buy the accnt and game off your hands......./chuckle, or hell one of the opponents you faced......rofl
FYI, some of us DO "get it", and just think it's a terrible concept. I'm not just talking about MMOs, but RPGs in general. They are games about progression, the more carrots they have to dangle in front of you, the more incentive you have to progress. No RPG I have ever played was solely about gear, but it is an important part of the games that I am not willing do do without. Like another poster already mentioned, If I just wanted skill progression with no gear, I could play any number of FPS games on the market, and enjoy the combat more.
I hate to harp on this point, but the full loot thing is only one of many many reasons why I believe this game is doomed to fail... it's not even in the top 5, IMO.
I see your point which would not make this game for you by your line of thought. But have you considered the other aspect of joining or creating a clan with a specific goal be it pirating or territory domination. This world is supposed to be designed to be harsh so banding with a group will make it less harsh.
Will uber guilds take over maybe but racial alignments will make that a bit troublesome. Don't want to be part of a major organization then make a thief’s guild or forma secret society or let them take over and start a rebellion. It really is going to be a game that is going to take some effort to measure success and that will be done on an individual basis. I hope there are enough players that have open minds enough to try and build something in the game as is the intent.
I do see the appeal of open world PvP... I just don't think all that has anything to do with full loot. I can do all those things you mentioned in AOC or, as I prefer it, in WAR.
Because acquiring "shiny baubbles" doesn't have to be what it is all about, all the time. Accomplishment doesn't have to be about having your Guild all "Ztwel Thap content" geared so you can go now and take on "Phat Lewtz recquired content". You all seem to either not be aware, or just don't get it because you have never experienced a game with this dynamic, the ganker's as it were, is a possible career path. A difficult one at that, so aye you will have clans of like mindsets (i.e. gankers) but it is only going to add to the feel of the real world setting with real world consequences that much more. You all have obviouslly never played a game that was so emmersive that it sucked you in and you get so pumped up, whether it is paranoia or excitment, or whatever and it is thrilling, adds SO much to your interaction, one with a gift with words might describge it, but it is best left to be experienced. I think those that have, or those that have had the experience suffeciently described to them that they wish to also experience it, are the ones really looking forward to and hoping this game delivers, those that think that game plays dynamics are going to allow them another happy fun gankfest time are also, but are going to be suprised that it's not going to be easy. MMOs today have little to NO risk what so ever, and it is teh suck, I mean there is no consequence for losing because so many people want it handed to them on a silver platter with gold trimmings. Agreed it will be niche, but DUH, the PvP part of the MMO community is already a SMALL piece of the pie to begin with. This game is for those that want to one, bring back something lost, some real challenge, some skill, and some excitement back into their entertainment gaming buck. The argument is mute really.....all you folks that don't like it, or don't agree, or don't get it, I invite you to just try it (if it does release and delivers said features) and then make your call......you might just find that you have been secluded or had blinders on about what all MMORPGs are "suppose" to be about. If you still don't like it then for the same reasons you stated, then get a freinemy to buy the accnt and game off your hands......./chuckle, or hell one of the opponents you faced......rofl
I do 'get it'. I played Lineage 2 from prelude up to interlude (c6, whatever they wanted to call it). I had my fun times in that kind of 'harsh' environment. And you know what? The game, at least on my server, regularly devolved into gank fests. One very, very large group of people would completely bot all of their accounts to get good gear and high levels. Then they would just gank 24/7 and bot to replace whatever they lost. This portion of the community grew, and grew until if you wanted to keep up you had to do it too. People grew to love doing it. They got all of the pvp action with none of the actual time invested. If they lost something expensive (a grade with SA for example) they would get pissed, but, hey, easy enough for them to bot and have replaced.
That's -NOT- 'real-world' loss. You don't -really- want that kind of loss my friend, trust me. The second you experience it you'll go looking for an easy way around it. How do I know? Because I knew all of the real hardcore pvp'ers back in the early days of L2. When they got ganked and lost a lot of time and effort to a gank squad, they looked for an easy way to replace it. Sure it was their fault for going out alone or whatever they happened to be doing, but it doesn't change the fact of what they did after the fact.
You can have very meaningful loss by having full inventory looting, but not what you have equipped. Either that or yeah have full looting. I can almost garauntee that gear will be super easy to get or if it isn't then just about everyone will look to take the easy road.
Oh yeah, guy I quoted in my post is the typical pvp'er than -thinks- they're hardcore, but aren't. They want all the pvp action with none of the time it takes to actually have meaningful pvp.
Sure why have gear in a pvp mmo at all then? It should just be entirely skill based. Oh wait, they tried to do something like that with a little game called Fury. We all know how well that turned out.....which if you don't know what game I'm talking about my point is further proven.
When I look at gear I don't think, 'that's going to make me look epic and win'. I think, 'Will this or will this not help me kill stuff better?' If you have some screwed up, entitled opinion when it comes to how gear should work then that's your own problem. If I see a piece of gear that will help me kill more or be killed less then I will put the effort forth to get it, that's it.
Oh and if gear didn't mean much of anything and almost everything relied on skill then people wouldn't have any problem killing oh...say...a dragon. How anti-climactic would that be? A guy in rusty chainmail with a dull sword killing a dragon because he wanted that experience to be handed to him -- _that's_ one entitled guy.
Comments
amen brother. Most of these people have never played a real sandbox pvp game.
I have to agree. This is all human nature.
good thign there are plenty of games out there that protect you from such game play.
I have to say, well done. 1 point for you for a well done reply.
PS I'm serious, well done.
one thing the trolls will soon realize is this game will succeed despite them.
This industry has been too chicken shit to make a real pvp mmo and have been riding on the Trammel carebear mouse on a wheel themepark of craptasic games long enough.
Now you can go play wow while others go play the game they want as they gank each other and dry loot each other and bring back all the love from the old days.
Sir,
If you have taken any collage level course, request a refund.
If you are in any public school, please prepare to learn your way around cleaning supplies.
If you are un employed and living with a relative, you did not use the word noob enough.
That will be all.
Great job demonstrating the mentality and maturity level of the average Darkfall fanboy.
haha, LOOT DEEZ
Because people love the idea of PvP in MMORPGS, but only if it is risk-free. Carebear PvP, like that in Wow and many other games, isn't worth bothering with. I don't even class it as real PvP, and just laugh when people challenge me to a duel - what's the point when there's nothing worthwhile to gain or - more importantly - lose?
A lot of carebears hate Eve Online because losing in PvP can cost tens of millions in game currency, as well as losing modules and implants worth much more than that. Losing in Eve can hurt your game badly, whereas losing in most other games is just a quick respawn somewhere safe. What a yawnfest.
I have to agree. This is all human nature.
good thign there are plenty of games out there that protect you from such game play.
I have to say, well done. 1 point for you for a well done reply.
PS I'm serious, well done.
one thing the trolls will soon realize is this game will succeed despite them.
This industry has been too chicken shit to make a real pvp mmo and have been riding on the Trammel carebear mouse on a wheel themepark of craptasic games long enough.
Now you can go play wow while others go play the game they want as they gank each other and dry loot each other and bring back all the love from the old days.
And once again, the word "troll" is thrown at anyone who doesn't praise the game... even when it's not warranted.
The industry has not been "too chicken shit" (more typical "hardcore tough talk") to make a "real PvP MMO". MMO devs *want to make money*. That's why people start businesses... to be successful. And thus far, there has been very little proof that the results of a wide-open FFA, anywhere/anytime PvP system with full loot will be anything but disappointing. Eve might be the closest example of an exception, but it's not a fair comparison because the PvP is not "anywhere/anytime".
Nikoliath is not even bashing the game.. They're discussing what, as yllis points out, is *human nature*. That has nothing to do with the game. People will be people will be people, no matter where they are, or what game they're playing.
All that said, yes... those above-mentioned behaviors - in some variation - will be present in Darkfall. Count on it. Why? Because in every single FFA PvP MMO out there - going back to the oldest MUDs - that has been the case... to the point that players were driven away and the companies ended up toning down the PvP to stop from losing subs and, thus, money.
Meanwhile, all the people responsible for driving them away have pounded their chests, gloating about how "uber" they were for chasing away subscribers.
To further illustrate the point... It doesn't even have to be a PvP MMO for this to happen. I've played MMOs with no PvP at all where there were still people who would find ways to abuse the game system to grief and harass other players, driving them out of the game if they could. They didn't see it as hurting the game's subscriber base; they saw it as proving how "bad-ass" they were.
It will happen because, for a certain portion of people, it's the only reason they even log in. They are not interested in playing the game itself, or progressing, or joining a guild, or anything like that. They're only interested in being an ass to as many people as they can, because the anonymity of being online emboldens them to.
Yes, this will happen in DF as well - and likely moreso because of the very playstyle DF is built around. How can I say this? Because I've followed and/or played other PvP MMOs over the past several years, and every single one of them had those types of people in them and in just about every case, the developers eventually had to tone things down to stem the loss of new players.
And if you seriously think DF is going to be immune to any of that... Well, the hardcore fans of those other MMOs felt exactly the same way about those games. In the end, their "strong feelings about it" didn't stop it from happening. Food for thought.
That said...
I'm about 90% certain at this point that a portion of DF's following is shaping up to look like Shadowbane Part 2. I'm seeing all the same behaviors coming out; the "hardcore" posturing, the overly defensive and hyper-aggressive behavior toward anyone who says anything critical of anything relating to the game (players, graphics, developers, etc); the excessive use of "troll" and "hater" and "carebear".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
see Im a big big fan of open, meaningful pvp but the big difference between say, UO and Eve is item replacement & risk.
In old school UO you could go fight liches for a couple hours and recoup your losses .....you might even stumble upon someone elses misfortune and find a silver broadsword or something. In eve the loss greatly outweighs any gains you may get from the encounter.
I hope darkfall has a 'fast' item replacement mechanic where you run up to some place buy a bag of new gear and move on.
I'm not discussing human nature but I think the question are...
How many griefers will have the balls to play this way with their main character in a game without alts ?
How many will have the endurance to travel 10 minutes each time they are killed and respawn at a chaos stone to come back to the newbies areas and harass people ? Will enjoy being killed by other reds when they try to bank items in wildnerness undefended bandit outposts ?
How many will be sufficiently good pvpers to succeed to kill people naked ?
How many will support being chased by organized clans of both antis, rvr/gvg players and serious opportunistic PKs ?
I'm not saying this playstyle will be absent, but I think many wanabee bad guys will be disgusted faster than their preys. For a pure griefer a game like wow where they can grey kill with 0 chance for the opponent, corpse or cemetary camp without any consequences, etc.. is a far better place than a real pvp game.
Now to be honest there are other questions...
How many exploitable bad mechanics will be in the game to help griefing ? Will griefers easily succeed to make their opponents grey and remain blue PK for example ? Do the mob agro system support training ? How powerful are city guards/towers ? How many real exploits will exist and how slow aventurine will be to remove them / punish the users ? etc..
How many clans will suport griefing ? Will there be many and easy to join big clans with griefing as only purpose ? Will the game end dominated by a 800 members goon squad zerg of naked people, or will it be easy to get rid of masses ?
And without answers no one can say if this game will be very good or rather bad for griefers.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It pretty simple if you don't like Full loot PVP then don't play. If all game mechanics work as stated then a solid group trying to fend off gankers will have an even chance just as the Gankers will have an even chance. It's not suppose to be about gear or levels if that's your mind set then you won't play for long.
Gear is going to wear overtime ala "Elder Scrolls style" so you are going to need to keep it repaired to stay alive or its repair or trade up.
Skills degrade overtime if not used regularly so you style of play will evolve all the time.
They said that PvE will be in the game but in a more real world context so you have to fight over your spawns and the spawns them selves.
NPC hordes are suppose to be smart enough to migrate when an area is farmed to much so you will need to hunt all over.
So old styles of play that have been done in other games will not be as effective in this. if you come into the game expecting that you "will" loose everything on you at anytime then full loot will not be an issue and you can get past that and figure out how you plan to get on in the game.
I think im going to have to agree with most all of WSIMIkes points.
It would seem one of the -rules of real PvP- is never attack anyone you are not certain beyond a show of a doubt you cant kill in one or two shots.
I have played a fair number of games with PvP options, and I would honestly say less then 5% of all my PvP deaths have been other then a steamroll kill.
Typically it will be myself taken by suprise by 1-3 players who are generally 2 to 3 times above my level. Usually from the time they spotted me and the time I was dead, it was less then 5 seconds.
About a 30% of the time the same people will kill me again in the same area, sometimes on my corpse run.
About 70% of all the times I have been killed I have been called names, told to learn to play or they have made sexual comments.
About 80% of the time I did manage to kill someone they returned with freinds and killed me
With that said there are some very cool PvP'ers out there, they just are the tiny minority.
And true, If you dont like it dont play. I will at some point play darkfall, the only question is if I will subscribe to the game or just play it for a month and let it die.
This is really the sad part of this game. A game dev finally makes something with ( were told ) many of the features we are looking for in a game and have been fighting to get, and the minority of players are going to try and make it as unpleasent as possible.
I would much rather love to see Darkfall become the game everyone plays. Then perhaps they would make more games with the features we as players want.
I have yet to play a game I dont craft in, and I cant imagine trying to craft when I can loose not only all my time, but my crafted gear to some roaming gang of party thugs.
We aren't just talking about losing some of your gold on death, we are talking about losing your items. For me it's an issue of not wanting to play a game with disposable gear. RPGs are driven by the the acquisition of shiny new gear. If all the gear is so mundane and unimportant that it isn't a big deal to lose, then it isn't a big deal to get it either. I LOVE PvP, but I would never play an MMO where gear was just a throw away item. And if that isn't the case, and the gear is still a major motivator in the game... I certainly wouldn't want to play a game where I could lose all of my to any random ganker.
Of course, this game has many, many more reasons to fail than the full loot open PvP.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
We aren't just talking about losing some of your gold on death, we are talking about losing your items. For me it's an issue of not wanting to play a game with disposable gear. RPGs are driven by the the acquisition of shiny new gear. If all the gear is so mundane and unimportant that it isn't a big deal to lose, then it isn't a big deal to get it either. I LOVE PvP, but I would never play an MMO where gear was just a throw away item. And if that isn't the case, and the gear is still a major motivator in the game... I certainly wouldn't want to play a game where I could lose all of my to any random ganker.
Of course, this game has many, many more reasons to fail than the full loot open PvP.
Exactly my way of thinking about it.
If nothing means anything then why play? If all I want to do is kill other people then there are tons of FPS games out there which are free to play where all you do is kill the enemy and get no rewards from it.
I really don't understand being rabid over an MMOFPS when there is so much available that has the same features.
If this game is really that much sandbox then a man with a torch or flint and steel will be the most dangerous person in the game as he burns your cities and fleets to the ground and you get to start over again and again.
Because acquiring "shiny baubbles" doesn't have to be what it is all about, all the time. Accomplishment doesn't have to be about having your Guild all "Ztwel Thap content" geared so you can go now and take on "Phat Lewtz recquired content".
You all seem to either not be aware, or just don't get it because you have never experienced a game with this dynamic, the ganker's as it were, is a possible career path. A difficult one at that, so aye you will have clans of like mindsets (i.e. gankers) but it is only going to add to the feel of the real world setting with real world consequences that much more. You all have obviouslly never played a game that was so emmersive that it sucked you in and you get so pumped up, whether it is paranoia or excitment, or whatever and it is thrilling, adds SO much to your interaction, one with a gift with words might describge it, but it is best left to be experienced.
I think those that have, or those that have had the experience suffeciently described to them that they wish to also experience it, are the ones really looking forward to and hoping this game delivers, those that think that game plays dynamics are going to allow them another happy fun gankfest time are also, but are going to be suprised that it's not going to be easy.
MMOs today have little to NO risk what so ever, and it is teh suck, I mean there is no consequence for losing because so many people want it handed to them on a silver platter with gold trimmings. Agreed it will be niche, but DUH, the PvP part of the MMO community is already a SMALL piece of the pie to begin with. This game is for those that want to one, bring back something lost, some real challenge, some skill, and some excitement back into their entertainment gaming buck.
The argument is mute really.....all you folks that don't like it, or don't agree, or don't get it, I invite you to just try it (if it does release and delivers said features) and then make your call......you might just find that you have been secluded or had blinders on about what all MMORPGs are "suppose" to be about.
If you still don't like it then for the same reasons you stated, then get a freinemy to buy the accnt and game off your hands......./chuckle, or hell one of the opponents you faced......rofl
I love hardcore gamers that scream for PVP full loot while praying for the items to be easily replaceable
FYI, some of us DO "get it", and just think it's a terrible concept. I'm not just talking about MMOs, but RPGs in general. They are games about progression, the more carrots they have to dangle in front of you, the more incentive you have to progress. No RPG I have ever played was solely about gear, but it is an important part of the games that I am not willing do without. Like another poster already mentioned, If I just wanted skill progression with no gear, I could play any number of FPS games on the market, and enjoy the combat more.
I hate to harp on this point, but the full loot thing is only one of many many reasons why I believe this game is doomed to fail... it's not even in the top 5, IMO.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
This.
Can't really have it both ways. If items are easily replacable, it means they are worthless, and then you're back to square one, meaningless PVP.
I guess in EVE its fairly easy to replace a ship, but not so easy to earn the ISK to cover the loss of the bigger ones. It becomes a game of not fighting, or never fighting when the odds aren't good in your favor.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
FYI, some of us DO "get it", and just think it's a terrible concept. I'm not just talking about MMOs, but RPGs in general. They are games about progression, the more carrots they have to dangle in front of you, the more incentive you have to progress. No RPG I have ever played was solely about gear, but it is an important part of the games that I am not willing do do without. Like another poster already mentioned, If I just wanted skill progression with no gear, I could play any number of FPS games on the market, and enjoy the combat more.
I hate to harp on this point, but the full loot thing is only one of many many reasons why I believe this game is doomed to fail... it's not even in the top 5, IMO.
I see your point which would not make this game for you by your line of thought. But have you considered the other aspect of joining or creating a clan with a specific goal be it pirating or territory domination. This world is supposed to be designed to be harsh so banding with a group will make it less harsh.
Will uber guilds take over maybe but racial alignments will make that a bit troublesome. Don't want to be part of a major organization then make a thief’s guild or forma secret society or let them take over and start a rebellion. It really is going to be a game that is going to take some effort to measure success and that will be done on an individual basis. I hope there are enough players that have open minds enough to try and build something in the game as is the intent.
This.
Can't really have it both ways. If items are easily replacable, it means they are worthless, and then you're back to square one, meaningless PVP.
I guess in EVE its fairly easy to replace a ship, but not so easy to earn the ISK to cover the loss of the bigger ones. It becomes a game of not fighting, or never fighting when the odds aren't good in your favor.
Completely agreed. The main problem the full loot crowd runs into is that more often than not these people seem to think stuff will be easily replaced.
Doesn't work that way, as you said. If it does then what's the point? Why not just play COD4?
Personally I would rather not have full loot, because then the chances are exceedingly good that gear will be trivial. For me gear is part of character progression, right in line with improving skills, professions, etc. However full loot will certainly make for many drama-filled moments, but I'm thinking perhaps maybe too many. I would much rather have pvp oriented around specific goals. Raiding a trade caravan, looting a town, sieging a castle, that kind of thing. Having a world where 90% of the time all you see are gank parties gets old really fast. Ganking happens, I have ganked and do gank to this day, but I don't make it a point to.
Personally I just don't want to see this game devolve into a gank fest where you can easily get your character decent to good gear and max out some skills in a few days. And to be completely honest that's exactly the kind of evironment a -lot- of the 'hardcore' pvp crowd seem to want. Boring imo.
However - I am all in favor of being able to fully loot what players have in their -inventory-. Whole different ball game, gear can then remain a meaningful part of the game, death still has meaningful drawbacks.
Just my two bits.
FYI, some of us DO "get it", and just think it's a terrible concept. I'm not just talking about MMOs, but RPGs in general. They are games about progression, the more carrots they have to dangle in front of you, the more incentive you have to progress. No RPG I have ever played was solely about gear, but it is an important part of the games that I am not willing do do without. Like another poster already mentioned, If I just wanted skill progression with no gear, I could play any number of FPS games on the market, and enjoy the combat more.
I hate to harp on this point, but the full loot thing is only one of many many reasons why I believe this game is doomed to fail... it's not even in the top 5, IMO.
I see your point which would not make this game for you by your line of thought. But have you considered the other aspect of joining or creating a clan with a specific goal be it pirating or territory domination. This world is supposed to be designed to be harsh so banding with a group will make it less harsh.
Will uber guilds take over maybe but racial alignments will make that a bit troublesome. Don't want to be part of a major organization then make a thief’s guild or forma secret society or let them take over and start a rebellion. It really is going to be a game that is going to take some effort to measure success and that will be done on an individual basis. I hope there are enough players that have open minds enough to try and build something in the game as is the intent.
I do see the appeal of open world PvP... I just don't think all that has anything to do with full loot. I can do all those things you mentioned in AOC or, as I prefer it, in WAR.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I do 'get it'. I played Lineage 2 from prelude up to interlude (c6, whatever they wanted to call it). I had my fun times in that kind of 'harsh' environment. And you know what? The game, at least on my server, regularly devolved into gank fests. One very, very large group of people would completely bot all of their accounts to get good gear and high levels. Then they would just gank 24/7 and bot to replace whatever they lost. This portion of the community grew, and grew until if you wanted to keep up you had to do it too. People grew to love doing it. They got all of the pvp action with none of the actual time invested. If they lost something expensive (a grade with SA for example) they would get pissed, but, hey, easy enough for them to bot and have replaced.
That's -NOT- 'real-world' loss. You don't -really- want that kind of loss my friend, trust me. The second you experience it you'll go looking for an easy way around it. How do I know? Because I knew all of the real hardcore pvp'ers back in the early days of L2. When they got ganked and lost a lot of time and effort to a gank squad, they looked for an easy way to replace it. Sure it was their fault for going out alone or whatever they happened to be doing, but it doesn't change the fact of what they did after the fact.
You can have very meaningful loss by having full inventory looting, but not what you have equipped. Either that or yeah have full looting. I can almost garauntee that gear will be super easy to get or if it isn't then just about everyone will look to take the easy road.
Oh yeah, guy I quoted in my post is the typical pvp'er than -thinks- they're hardcore, but aren't. They want all the pvp action with none of the time it takes to actually have meaningful pvp.
Sure why have gear in a pvp mmo at all then? It should just be entirely skill based. Oh wait, they tried to do something like that with a little game called Fury. We all know how well that turned out.....which if you don't know what game I'm talking about my point is further proven.
When I look at gear I don't think, 'that's going to make me look epic and win'. I think, 'Will this or will this not help me kill stuff better?' If you have some screwed up, entitled opinion when it comes to how gear should work then that's your own problem. If I see a piece of gear that will help me kill more or be killed less then I will put the effort forth to get it, that's it.
Oh and if gear didn't mean much of anything and almost everything relied on skill then people wouldn't have any problem killing oh...say...a dragon. How anti-climactic would that be? A guy in rusty chainmail with a dull sword killing a dragon because he wanted that experience to be handed to him -- _that's_ one entitled guy.
haha, LOOT DEEZ
LOL I can already see many doing this.