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Group-lovers: the REAL freaks in the MMO world...?
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First of all I will say wow... I did not expect to wake up to this long thread after 6 hrs of sleep.
I am quite confident that I can say the "powergamers" aint here, those are today, at least in the MMO's I have played, 99% of the MMO comunity. Those who are in forums like this, are a totally different kind of people; More into the lore side of the games, as well as many who desperately want every MMO to have "forced-grouping".
The average MMO player is "out there", not here. He/she is a powergamer and cares little or nothing to forums like this, for obvious reasons. Now, take a look at WoW; it is by far THE greatest MMO of all times. Deny that as much as you like, but the game developers at Blizzard sure know how to earn money. There was a demand after a MMO where you could achieve end level content without being forced to group with idiots.
WoW has opened the door even more by going into company with Activision (producers of the Call of Duty series). Wonder why? Well, COD 6 has broken every single record when it comes to earning money whether it comes to game releases OR even films. Just imagine what this cooperation will mean to the MMO world. Btw, you did know that even COD, which is ultimately a FPS (SOLO) even has levels, perks and so...?
Smack WoW together with COD, and you will have a game that has the potential to tip WOW off the throne. And you be sure that game is emphazising on SOLOING! Whether you like it or not!
Now a few replies, not neccessarily in priority order, this thread became huge in short time, and I am in a hurry now. Got some REAL LIFE FRIENDS to take care of...
/bearhug to the group-lovers; I can hear you crying, but it will do no good.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I blame poor game design.
When designing quests, devs really only make solo quests with maybe 1 or 2 group needed parts toward the end of a chain.
Soloing is fine, as is grouping. MMO designers need to understand that there is a need for both playstyles. Right now they seem focused on 'Leveling and questing = soloable content and Dungeon and Raid content = Group content'.
Why cant devs incorporate some system where groups can form and pick up some randomly generated quest? It could be a randomly generated dungeon that allows the group to run through for more XP and money, sort of a benefit for grouping that wont end up in people siiting in LFG waiting for an invite to one of the 5 possible static instances that the level range offers. Save those instances for loot drops and the such.
What they could do is like each town having a sherif or other law enforcement figure who will give a group a quest/mission to track down and fight a criminal. The mission can auto adjust to the level of the group and by how many group members there are, to prevent people from grabbing easier missions. The mission could be set in a multi-leveled instance that could test a group by throwing waves of mobs/NPCs at them. When they finish and turn in the quest they will be rewarded with a better XP reward than one that someone would get by soloing.
Anarchy Online had a team/xp system much like this. Worked well back then. Unsure if it would fit into a modern MMO today. Even AO "abandoned" that gameplay by adding ShadowLands expansion.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Last I checked, soloable mobs tend to get steamrolled when you come at them with a group, so yes, it's not challenging. And there are plenty of times when I'd like to do group content for fun, but no one else was around that wanted to, they all just wanted to solo.
Too bad too sad. Don't blame others if you have hard time finding a group. It is not so that EVERYONE want to hang out with complete strangers.
So what do you really want from the group and the "effect" of grouping...? I am unsure what you are trying to say here...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Spot on! Thats the "truth".
To me, I have found out that the "soloers" actually have MORE time to help me, than ANY "grouper" I have met... isnt that a paradox....? Well, it shows that the groupers are actually just after one thing; the phat loot. Nothing more. These persons are also the first one to kick one out of the group if he/she isnt "effective" enough.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Thats a ridiculous notion sir.
much like a guitar player, you learn what you need to on your own, but the end goal is to play in a band with other people.
What you newer players seem to have forgotten is that in UO and EQ, socializing came first, "phat lewt" came second.
But unfortunately todays nerds are just like the asshole jocks that we wanted to seperate ourselves from to begin with.
All attitude, no compassion.
So you play MMO's, but is NOT a nerd...?? That is a laugh...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
If you don't have fun grouping all the time you are playing the wrong genre of game.
Whats the fun of being hurt...? Last time I checked, the "MMORPG" did NOT mean Massive Multiplayer Retard Groups...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Thats a ridiculous notion sir.
much like a guitar player, you learn what you need to on your own, but the end goal is to play in a band with other people.
What you newer players seem to have forgotten is that in UO and EQ, socializing came first, "phat lewt" came second.
But unfortunately todays nerds are just like the asshole jocks that we wanted to seperate ourselves from to begin with.
All attitude, no compassion.
and I argue that you can still socialize in todays mmos, can you not? find like minded individuals like yourself and problem solved. and no, plenty of people learn to play an instrument with no aspirations to play in a band.
LoL, you do realize that MMOs by their very nature and design are meant to be played WITH other people.
Most developers do support solo play, but a solo player can not accomplish as much as a group of players. Thats why the best rewards are reserved for groups, aka Raids, Heroics, etc....
Thats why I dont understand why people are busting down a team sport into a one man ball and cup routine.
Because it's not inherently a team sport.
In MMO is a huge mountain. You can take a nice trail, alone or with friends. You can head for a vertical face and go it alone. You can tie yourself to a few friends and head strait for the top. There's no "right" way to climb the mountain, and everyone is free to enjoy it however they wish.
It WAS a team sport. But as more people with an overgrown selfish sense of entitlement filter in the genre demanding that the genre bend THEIR way the more the game suffers. MMO's are dead. And if I wasnt playing with some friends, Id tell the whole stagnated genre and all its flotsom to rot in hell.
Bring out your dead.
So you complain soloers being selfish. Excuse me! Theres actually a REAL world outside the hole you are living in! When was the last time you helped some hungry children in Africa, donated money to a hobo, helped an old woman across the street or even stood up and gave away your seat on the bus to some stranger...??
Such attitude you are showing here, is really provoking. MMO's isnt EVERYTHING in this world!
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
You're going to find yourself playing solo if you ever get what you want. Know what I mean?
If it works in EVE so well (the game has been out for how long?), it is an option to support both styles of game playing within one game.
Other games are free to attempt group only content, but how well games such as this fare in today's mmo world.......Yeah, I dunno.
Im not saying make games unsoloable, Im just saying that grouping should be rewarded far more than soloing. FAR more, so that people prefer to group.
Again, Im a fossil, but I wouldnt mind a new group centric game or two.
My though on all of this want for solo, drop MMOs, drop them alltogther. Buy a console, and text message your pals. Its what the solo'rs want right? To play alone, and still interact with other people?
No, we want freedom and choice. And we want that same for you... unfortunately you want to take it from us.
Agreed. We who solo can not be blamed for MMO's being more solo friendly. If theres a demand, there WILL be a supply. Plain & simple. You can not stop the flow...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
depending on games? dunno, fishing, crafting, playing the auction house, collecting mounts, pets, skills, achievements, and im sure there are more im not familiar with. what kind of group content is there? besides running the same instances over and over again for that one piece of LOOT that will make your character 0.3 times more uber than he already is?
you see, the thing is, to some people, its about the journey, not the purples.
Here we agree, the journey is far more important than the destination. But who wants to take a long road trip with no one else in the car? Personally Ill take a vanful of pals over driving by myself anyday.
I do. I would prefer to ride alone.
now why cant you just respect my playstyle like i respect yours? i'll tell you why, because there are those old mmo vets, like you, who are nothing but bitter shells of the gamers they once were, and refuse to find enjoyment in the little things. in one word, douches.
And of course there are your new school players have been given all you want your entire lives without having to work for it, and thus expect that to be the same everywhere.
I wont resort to name calling. But I will say you are the prime example of whats wrong with people who spend their whole lives in bubble wrap.
In one word, spoiled.
you tell me to go buy a console, i tell you to get a real life. and about your precious mmo experience being extinct i say: cry some more. im sure someone out there cares.
EXACTLY! Who really cares about what anyone else wants when the universe rotates around you?
Its why Americans are getting fatter, the childrens test scores go down by the year, because you want what you want regardless of it pulls the rug out from under people that were here before you.
Again, you are being a "Guardian of Morale". You must be the good samaritan or something...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
That second M in MMO is for Multiplayer.
If you don't want to play with others there are plenty of single player games available.
If you want forced grouping there are DDO for you. Prolly many more MMO's as well. But they are, most certainly just like DDO, dead.
Still I see no where it says "forced-grouping" in the MMORPG... And I sure aint very fond of strangers, like YOU, telling ME how to play the MMO's! And thank goodness, the game developers does'nt care about what 'group-facsists' like you are whining about...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Group lovers dont' want to be allowed to group.
Grouping is quite easy in games that are bad for grouping.
City of Heroes is not a good group game. But you can group in that game the entire time you play.
WoW is not a good group game. But you can group in that game very easily, in fact I grouped the whole time I played WoW, but quit because it was not a good grouping game.
Figure out what this means, and you may begin to understand the issue.
Issue...? What issue...?
I have played WoW, the BIGGEST mmo ever, since its release, and I still cannot see any "issue" about the solo part there.... In fact, people want MORE solo content, not the opposite. So tell me, are 10 million players wrong... or is it just YOU...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I don't mind the Team Aspect of the game... but the thing is, I don't want to do PVE for the phat loot. You can only do so much Molten Core or things like that before you start getting bored, especially now that folks like Blizzard decide to increase level caps and change armor sets. My greatest fun came from World of Warcraft's Battlegrounds, back when PvP gear was the thing. However, then they came up with the "arena", and made it so all PvP gear you got from the Battlegrounds was second to the Arena.
Arena wasn't fun for me. It did have the wind open, rush rush kill kill style of gameplay that BGs like Alterac Valley did. Even if I lost, I enjoyed BGs, I enjoyed stomping some poor fellow who was engaging a warrior by hitting him with a Frost Bolt crit. In the Arenas, however, you make a very nice, squishy target for the enemy team if you're a Mage, and that's all I played. It went from the pugging raid that set itself up style of gameplay with BGs, to some restricted self-jerk-off sport for people that thought they were in a Gladiator movie.
I'm a Casual Fellow. I can't make an MMO a way of life. But I'd also like a chance at some really neat gear. I tried raids, I found them fun, but they were also very boring (I'm a Mage, remember?). However, I noticed that unfortunately, if you were alone, there was no way to do a raid. That gear was always out of your grasp, no matter how good you were. My best experience in MMOs (if it could be called one) was actually Phantasy Star Online's offline game. I later got it on PC and went online and had a blast, but I got really rare, powerful gear as long as I was willing to sink my own time in, it was just longer to do by myself, but I could still easily do it.
That's how it should be, in my eyes. Raid gear could, and should, be doable by yourself, likely by quest, but be faster and easier for a group to do with a raid. You earn as much as you're willing to sink time into getting. The restrictions on raids (only once per week, I believe it was back in the day) bored me to death. I found something casual and fun (Battlegrounds), and they destroyed it's gear, making it weaker than Arena gear. I couldn't find anything fun or rewarding in games like these, so I quit them. Now, I search for another that lets me freely PvP and get gear for it, rather than spamming dungeons and monsters, which I did for Level 1 - 60 (and I played the expansions, so I did 1 - 80).
EQ and FF both have forced grouping and do well, many other games have forced grouping too and seem to do ok. You can solo in those games, but not solo all the way to the hardest zones. I like forced grouping because it gives incentive to hang out and have fun with other people, isn't this what MMO are about, maybe it's just not for everyone then eh.
MMOs cater to all play styles, or they should do. It stands to reason that the MMOs that offer a variety of play styles will be more successful.
All play styles are valid within an MMORPG as they offer choice, soloing, grouping, raiding, role playing, combat, crafting etc etc.
I may want to solo in the morning and group in the evening whats wrong with that? I dont like raiding but dont be-grudge those that do. Same with role playing, if you like it, do it otherwise dont'. Live and let live, as long it doenst afeect you adversley what is the problem?
The choice is down to the individual gamer, MMOs offer the choices you choose what you like to do at any given time and do it,
Ulitmately if you believe otherwise you should get off your high horse and respect others play styles, not eveyone is you meh...
Those sticklers that look at the M for multiplayer, do you also ensure that you Role Play too !?!
I don't have a problem with solo or group centric MMOs, however as long as there is one decent group based MMO I will play that. I just find that content designed for group play has a lot more potential than anything designed for all to solo, simple as that.
Now soloing content designed for a group, that is really my cup of tea challenge wise.
I rarely Group because I have a real Life so when an MMO that comes out that allows me as a player to take advantage of my game play style , I play it. WoW is one of those games and SWG Pre-CU was another.
I have read this thread through and I am amazed at the lack of disrespect for another persons opinions and ideas on this subject. There appears to be a lack of moderation but since I have posted on this thread I am sure that this will be rectified.
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EQ and FF both have forced grouping and do well, many other games have forced grouping too and seem to do ok. You can solo in those games, but not solo all the way to the hardest zones. I like forced grouping because it gives incentive to hang out and have fun with other people, isn't this what MMO are about, maybe it's just not for everyone then eh.
It's true that a game that encourages grouping won't rival World of Warcraft.
But not everyone wants to play WoW, or WoW clones.
Group lovers dont' want to be allowed to group.
Grouping is quite easy in games that are bad for grouping.
City of Heroes is not a good group game. But you can group in that game the entire time you play.
WoW is not a good group game. But you can group in that game very easily, in fact I grouped the whole time I played WoW, but quit because it was not a good grouping game.
Figure out what this means, and you may begin to understand the issue.
Issue...? What issue...?
I have played WoW, the BIGGEST mmo ever, since its release, and I still cannot see any "issue" about the solo part there.... In fact, people want MORE solo content, not the opposite. So tell me, are 10 million players wrong... or is it just YOU...?
Um, read again.
I said the issue with the grouping game, not the solo game.
I agree, the solo game in WoW works great. It's the group game that does not.
however, it's NOT because you can't group in WoW just fine. Certainly you join groups all day long.
But people that want a good grouping game are not looking for games where you can just join a group.
That's what you seem to be saying. Hey, you can join a group, so it's a good grouping game!
No, it's not.
FIgure this out, and you will begin to understand why groupers are looking for something that is missing in WoW, but that missing feature is not the ability to join a group.
There's no right or wrong about MMORPGs, just games you like, games you don't like. 10 million people like the Jonas Brothers. Are they wrong?
After 17 pages I don't feel like reading, (as we continue to beat this horse to death) all I can say is yes, I'm a grouping freak and would like to see "some" games designed around a solid grouping mechanic. (dare I call it "forced grouping?"
I don't care if 10M other folks prefer a game like WOW, my opinion is the "only" one that matters. (to me at least)
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes they are. And they should be stoned to death
Joking. I think you have to strike a balance on the social part of MMO's in general.
Remember, this activity is a game. And games are for nerdy people right? And nerdy people don't do too well at social functions. Riiiiiiight?? Or are MMO's soley a social activity. Like facebook where the average brit spends 3 working weeks in total per year socializing. At the end we are all individuals, some who are more outgoing that others. Some who are more game devoted than others.
I loved WoW for the fact that if I felt like doing an instance run there were always people or freinds to go with. I also raided abit but that takes the fun out of the game since you are forced to find a "raiding" guild to get teh epix. And being in a raiding guild means different relations than if you were in a social guild. That's why the influx of casual raiding guilds started to develop over the last couple of years.
Point I'm making is. Yes I love doing stuff with other people or just chatting. But I do not do that 100% of the time when I play an MMO. There should indeed be options, note options, for group playing or it would not be an MMO. Sick of group playing 1 day, play console the next. Simple.
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Yup.
Group content should warrent getting a group. Camping mob spawns and running the same dungeons over and over are just not worth it. Thats why they added loot rewards, which is nice for the people who group. But there is another problem, not everyone really cares about this uber loot thing, specially at lower than raid level. When it comes to early and middle game experience, a lot of people end up skipping those dungeons because the loot you would get, while better than anything else its level, would only last you about 5 levels at max.
Now look at low/mid level dungeon loot drops from games like EQ. You could pretty much always use that item (say about 10-20 levels worth of use) and it would last a while because the levels were just long enough that even while group blitzing mob spawns it still took forever to level.
New games try to hint at leveling by offering up neat shiney items at below raid level (low/mid game levels) but the items themselves really have no value because you out grow them faster than my kid out grows shoes. That in itself lends to people not really bothering with grouping because teh reward isnt something worth shooting for. This is where game design and itemization fails the group player. Its not the solo palyers fault, its just lazy game design. People like me who like to solo really dont care if groupers get better loot (they put in the effort thus they deserve it). But when the reward isnt worth it, grouping loses its draw and more people just go about soloing.
So dont blame the soloer, blame the designers. All we solo types want is content, but not at the cost of killing a whole playstyle.
Excellent post, and I agree completely.
I am all for groups getting better loot than someone can obtain solo. Like you said, they deserve it because they worked for it. I would be content with a lesser version obtainable solo.
Acidon
Right on, thats exactly the point ive been trying to make. Sure let them have their solo time, but make it SO much better to group in terms of xp and loot that it makes it painful to solo.
See? Again your only objective in this thread is to illicit a negative response from someone else.
What I was stating is that solo people shouldnt suffer severe XP penalaties and soloing shouldnt be painful in the least. Soloing should present a challenge, but it shouldnt be painful in the least.
As for grouping, there is always a better XP gain through grouping than via solo play. Anyone who says otherwise is spewing BS. The difference is while soloing, the player isnt stuck with waiting for people to come back from bio breaks, phone calls or internet interruptions. Thats why it seems like they gain XP faster because they really are not hindered by other people.
Now do I feel people should be able to solo dungeons and such for loot drops? Nope. Dungeons are where groups come into play, hence why they deserve the reward (loot and/or money). And when I talk about loot, I'm talking about something thats actually worth spending the time to get, not something that will be awesome for that level and maybe the next and then made completely useless a day later when you've leveled a third time. In games like WoW instance loot before raid level isnt really worth the effort, hence why grouping is pretty light all the way to max (raid) level. The reward just doesnt fit the time investment at all.
Sadly this is where the group and solo mentality clash. The group centric people blame the solo players for this issue, when in fact it is poor game design that has totally disregaurded the whole reason behind making grouping a viable choice before end game. You can also blame the guilds who rush to end game in the first few weeks of a games launch for this as well. These players group up and blitz the entire game so they can hit max level and then bitch about a lack of content. From here developers end up spending most of their design time and resources creating raids and high level content to keep these jokers happy, which in turn causes a lack of content control in the low/middle game.
Once that happens you end up having everyone rushing to max level because why bother with the poorly kept content in the mid/low game when all the devs resources seem to be aimed at pumping out raid content? Thats when you start seeing a game being plagued with "The real game starts at (this level)!"
So once the game becomes all about end level raiding, why bother wasting your time finding groups to level through when soloing would be a faster more viable path there? You wont have to wait for AFKers, Wont have to deal with hissy fits and wont have to sit there for hours spamming chat channels to find a group because your class isnt really a preferred class in 'Solid' group structures. Just run out, grab some quests/find a camp with fast easy spawns, throw on some music and get to work.
Well to throw a monkey wrench in your whole text wall....
My spiritmaster can solo elites in AION and gets far better xp than grouping.
In warhammer I could solo on my toons as I got far better return on xp and reknown.
In Planetside, always solo, got a lot more xp that way.
So yeah I disagree that in all games there is better rewards for grouping, thats a complete falsehood.
I don't have a hard time grouping. I have a hard time with people who try to tell me when to play, how to play, and that any way I want to play is wrong. Inevitably people find themselves without a group or the desire for a group at times. Advocating punishing them for things beyond their control in support of your chosen playstyle is both short sighted and self indulgent. It's bad for the game and the players. All players in the long run.
I really would like to spend a day in your shoes. Ive never seen anyone play the way you are saying that people you have come across do. is this a common thing for you? or just every once and a while?
Then you haven't spent much time playing MMOs in groups if you've "never" seen it. I find your post to be disingenuous.
I didnt say Ive "never" seen it, Im simply saying I use the tools available to avoid those situations, and I dont understand why you cannot. Its not hard to find like minded people, its not hard to get in a guild and avoid pugs, its not even hard to start your own groups in order to avoid the dregs.
As to how long Ive played MMOs, its been more than 10+ years, however that is irrelevant as I could explain to someone who has played MMOs for the last 2 months how to keep out of bad PUG situations.
Perhaps you need to take a more active approach to grouping.
Thats a ridiculous notion sir.
much like a guitar player, you learn what you need to on your own, but the end goal is to play in a band with other people.
What you newer players seem to have forgotten is that in UO and EQ, socializing came first, "phat lewt" came second.
But unfortunately todays nerds are just like the asshole jocks that we wanted to seperate ourselves from to begin with.
All attitude, no compassion.
So you play MMO's, but is NOT a nerd...?? That is a laugh...
Reading comprehension for the win. Notice the use of the word "we" after todays nerds its inclusive. Read, then pick the fight, not the other way around.
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
If you don't have fun grouping all the time you are playing the wrong genre of game.
Whats the fun of being hurt...? Last time I checked, the "MMORPG" did NOT mean Massive Multiplayer Retard Groups...
Let me ask you something, and please answer honestly, even if it puts your true colors out there for everyone to see.
Do you feel like you are a superior player than most people you play with?
Do you feel like grouping is a waste of time because players just arent on your level?
Do you feel like you are less of a player if you rely on other players?
Id really like to know you have a very strange attitude and Im to try to figure out why.
Thats a ridiculous notion sir.
much like a guitar player, you learn what you need to on your own, but the end goal is to play in a band with other people.
What you newer players seem to have forgotten is that in UO and EQ, socializing came first, "phat lewt" came second.
But unfortunately todays nerds are just like the asshole jocks that we wanted to seperate ourselves from to begin with.
All attitude, no compassion.
and I argue that you can still socialize in todays mmos, can you not? find like minded individuals like yourself and problem solved. and no, plenty of people learn to play an instrument with no aspirations to play in a band.
LoL, you do realize that MMOs by their very nature and design are meant to be played WITH other people.
Most developers do support solo play, but a solo player can not accomplish as much as a group of players. Thats why the best rewards are reserved for groups, aka Raids, Heroics, etc....
Thats why I dont understand why people are busting down a team sport into a one man ball and cup routine.
Because it's not inherently a team sport.
In MMO is a huge mountain. You can take a nice trail, alone or with friends. You can head for a vertical face and go it alone. You can tie yourself to a few friends and head strait for the top. There's no "right" way to climb the mountain, and everyone is free to enjoy it however they wish.
It WAS a team sport. But as more people with an overgrown selfish sense of entitlement filter in the genre demanding that the genre bend THEIR way the more the game suffers. MMO's are dead. And if I wasnt playing with some friends, Id tell the whole stagnated genre and all its flotsom to rot in hell.
Bring out your dead.
So you complain soloers being selfish. Excuse me! Theres actually a REAL world outside the hole you are living in! When was the last time you helped some hungry children in Africa, donated money to a hobo, helped an old woman across the street or even stood up and gave away your seat on the bus to some stranger...??
Such attitude you are showing here, is really provoking. MMO's isnt EVERYTHING in this world!
Ironically enough, I do volunteer work every now and again as my schedule permits. I donate money to a local church even though I dont go. I work at a concierge, its my job to help old ladies get cabs, walk them outside. I literally help people every day, but thats not my point.
Trust me, if I had to choose between two people, one who was a social pariah, or someone who was just plain friendly to group with, to spend time with in real life, you can guess which one Id pick.