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Why World PvP > Instanced | Arena PvP
huge_froglok
Member Posts: 135
Note: When I talk about FFA PvP, i'm talking about FFA PvP as it exists in games with: Death Penalties, Shared PvE Content.
There are several reasons why FFA PvP is better
- It is real. You fight people on your own server. Contrast this to the arena system where you fight random people every time, who aren't even on the same server, and who you don't even have to interact with normally.
- It isn't sugarcoated. You don't have equal numbers at all times. Sugarcoating belongs in games with hand holding, such as WoW. Want a boring PvP system? Always have it be such that you are fighting with the same numbers, same class combinations etc.
- It is dynamic. Battles could occur in any zone, for any reason at all, or no reason, involving any number of guilds or factions on a server. A 1vs1 fight over an exp spot can turn into the whole server showing up to fight.
- It causes guilds to fight each other. In World PvP, it is guild vs guild on the same server. In instanced PvP, no one in your guild is going to care that some other guild just mopped the floor with you. World PvP encourages Guild vs Guild all-out wars.
And what is your only "pro" for Arena PvP? Balanced? Wrong. MMORPGs aren't balanced, PvP isn't balanced. Just because the numbers are same doesn't make it balanced.
I guess your idea of PvP is the same classes, the same gear, the same levels fighting each other over and over for no reason. Yeah, that sounds really fun.
Remind me, what was it Blizzard had to add to make ANYONE participate in their PvP system? Oh yeah, all of the gear shops. Here, PvP and you will get these items. People never enjoyed, and still do not enjoy PvP in WoW, because it simply does not have the elements of FFA PvP. All it has is a gear shop. Take that away, people wouldn't even participate.
Some WoW people think World PvP is bad because they remember Tarren Mills, pre battlegrounds. People fought for no reason for hours, got bored, logged off, and repeated. Well, World PvP DOES suck in WoW, but it's not because World PvP is bad, but because WoW: instanced all of its PVE Content, got rid of death penalty, only let you fight "Alliance vs Horde" instead of guilds vs guild.
Now FFA PvP in a real MMORPG like EQ, that is probably the best kind of PvP out there, due to the environment in which the PvP existed (one with limited resources and high competition)
Comments
This right here. Its the main reason why i love FFA PVP. Ive played so many games where this happens, either myself or my party gets into a battle with someone else over an xp/loot spot, and slowly both sides start bringing more and more allies to the spot to help win the battle until it turns into a good 50+ vs 50+ battle, usually involving multiple guilds on each side. This is usually when my love for tactical play starts taking over and it gets to be loads of fun.
As much as the game itself sucked, this was my favorite part of Rohan. We had a few small guilds who formed alliances with eachother on one side vs a few massive zerg guilds. Watching a mix of my guild members and the members of another small guild called Tempest just roflstomp enemy zerg guilds into submission through outsmarting them and using our smaller number of players more effectively by focus firing important targets.
Same thing happens in RF Online a lot too. I go out raiding enemy areas solo, start coming across small groups of people and rolling them, and they start coming at me with more and more backup, and then passing allies see the battle and join in until we have an all out war going on in some of the zones.
My favourite PvP was in DAoC. There was no FFA looting or death penalty but it still had many of the dynamics that you are talking about.
As long as the game mechanics do not facilitate corpse camping or trapping players, I'm all for FFA pvp.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Same. Darkfall is the only thing that has come close.
Difference is, in DAoC it wasn't about personal loss, in terms of loot, but you lost territory, and the enemy gained benefits from killing you. It was more of a team effort. Your own death wasn't that big a deal, but your whole realm or group dying was a problem. Especially because, due to the debuffs, and travel time, a battle lost actually meant something.
Combine that with keeps, relic raids, and realm points, and many of the dynamics of the overworld FFA PvP are there.
OP, I do agree with you. Just remember that some people do genuinely like and prefer "arena style" PvP, and that there's nothing wrong with that. I can see that there is something to be said for it, although, like you, I dont really care for it all that much myself.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I find your bias amusing:
I'm sorry that your experiences of instanced PvP seem to be limited only to WoW. To my experience, Guild Wars has the best instanced PvP in the MMO business. Coincidentally it is also the best balanced game I've played.
Advancing through PvP is a great way to give a player alternative ways how to improve his/her character and acquire better gear. Nothing wrong with that. And I believe people actually do enjoy PvP in WoW. It is trollish to claim otherwise.
Harsh death penalty does not make the PvP "better". It gives you the gambler's rush. Something that other people don't get or don't care about.
You want pros of a "no death penalty"?
EDIT: I forgot to add a major pro: Good fights are much, much more common.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Actually, Asheron's Call is the only thing to come close to DAoC PvP. PvP in Asheron's Call was actually good until they added certain things, but it still is awesome. Although, not many people play it nowadays, but it still has a strong PvP community. Darkfall was alright, but it wasn't AC worthy. Even the WoW and GW went to Darkfall and said, "This PvP is horrid." Hence why nobody plays it anymore.
Same. Darkfall is the only thing that has come close.
Difference is, in DAoC it wasn't about personal loss, in terms of loot, but you lost territory, and the enemy gained benefits from killing you. It was more of a team effort. Your own death wasn't that big a deal, but your whole realm or group dying was a problem. Especially because, due to the debuffs, and travel time, a battle lost actually meant something.
Combine that with keeps, relic raids, and realm points, and many of the dynamics of the overworld FFA PvP are there.
how is DF anywhere close to DAoC when your own race(realm members) can kill you loot you and as long as they dont hit the gank button not suffer any consequence in DF?
Let's see. I'll put my mean hat on since this seems like a good place for it, following isn't 100% serious, but what the hey:
BG's held a level of play unheard of in world pvp, arenas doubled that. I'm sure hiding in the crowd, roleplaying as a "PvP'er" holds some excitement for some; but it pales in comparison with proper fights. We've seen it before the "pro world PvP'er" entering into a proper contest getting destroyed, then he can crawl back to his little sandbox pretending that's the "real" thing.
Arenas are a balanced, laddered competition; unlike world PvP it's not a free ride. You can't hide in the crowd, if you don't preform it's you. It can take your pride and step on it, and that hurst more than any gear loss ever will.
Unrestricted PVP systems are the most limiting and least beneficial. Period.
I completely agree. World PvP has always been a lot more fun to me than instanced.
FFA games dont have PvP, FFA games have 97% gank and grief, 3% PvP.
If you want PvP you gotta play an instanced/arena game
now OP, if you want, start other topic explaining why in your opinion gank/grief is better than PvP. Just dont cheat yourself into thinking you are a real PvPer, because you are not, you are everything that real PvPers laught at.
Calling that PvP? What a joke..
Actually when I played EQ there wasn't as much "gank and grief" as there was endgame guilds fighting each other. Although gank and grief is fine because it's part of the world. People who complain about it aren't FFA PvPers. They belong on PVE servers with their arena, fake PvP system..
Who is the real PvPer? The person who wants rules to protect them from anything, or the person who thinks anything is fine?
Sometimes you get ganked/griefed, sometimes you gank/grief others. I guess the "real PvPers" can't handle that fact and need Mommy Blizzard to ensure it's always the same 5v5 with no penalties and no purpose.
Let's see. I'll put my mean hat on since this seems like a good place for it, following isn't 100% serious, but what the hey:
BG's held a level of play unheard of in world pvp, arenas doubled that. I'm sure hiding in the crowd, roleplaying as a "PvP'er" holds some excitement for some; but it pales in comparison with proper fights. We've seen it before the "pro world PvP'er" entering into a proper contest getting destroyed, then he can crawl back to his little sandbox pretending that's the "real" thing.
Arenas are a balanced, laddered competition; unlike world PvP it's not a free ride. You can't hide in the crowd, if you don't preform it's you. It can take your pride and step on it, and that hurst more than any gear loss ever will.
1-4, You are wrong, I'm not going to argue with someone who just says "No" without providing any real facts to back up statements..
Level of play unheard of? Yeah, queueing up for BGs every 15 minutes, all day. What a great level of play. And you know the people participating in those systems did it because it was actually fun and not because of the gearshops, or the titles, or anything like that.. Lol
In EQ PvP had meaning, and WoW just made it meaningless.
Pro World PvPer gets destroyed in a contest? Lol. In the best of the best, in EQ, why was it that the people from the FFA PvP servers were usually the winners? Oh, because they are better than the people who played those carebear servers.
Arenas arent balanced. What prevents your team from going against someone who has a talent spec that has an advantage vs your own? That is balanced? Or maybe they have better classes vs your own? How do they balance that one? Or their gear might be better?
Arenas are meaningless and boring. Can't hide in the crowd? When you lose Arena it doesn't matter. Big deal. Telling me that people who can't handle penalties are real PvPers? Lol. Those are the same people who would hide on blue servers.
I find your bias amusing:
I'm sorry that your experiences of instanced PvP seem to be limited only to WoW. To my experience, Guild Wars has the best instanced PvP in the MMO business. Coincidentally it is also the best balanced game I've played.
Advancing through PvP is a great way to give a player alternative ways how to improve his/her character and acquire better gear. Nothing wrong with that. And I believe people actually do enjoy PvP in WoW. It is trollish to claim otherwise.
Harsh death penalty does not make the PvP "better". It gives you the gambler's rush. Something that other people don't get or don't care about.
You want pros of a "no death penalty"?
EDIT: I forgot to add a major pro: Good fights are much, much more common.
Good fights are common? Predictable fights are common in those type of games.
No death penalty makes the PvP pointless and not fun.
People aren't afraid to fight? That sounds like a problem. They SHOULD be afraid to fight. The game can have things that will MAKE them fight. Say you both want to kill the same NPC, you don't want to fight them, but you have to.
Some of the worst PvPers Ive ever encountered were the "Grand Marshals" and people on top of the trivial Arena system. Are you telling me they are supposed to be good? You can take a mediocre EQ PvP Server player and they would mop the floor with anyone in WoW, regardless of their meaningless rank.
Unrestricted PVP removes or fairly limits the non-combat activities. At the end, the game has less options and deeper ingame mechanics are uneasy to develope.
In short:
If you force everyone into PVP, there will little left to do apart from PVP.
Unrestricted PVP removes or fairly limits the non-combat activities. At the end, the game has less options and deeper ingame mechanics are uneasy to develope.
In short:
If you force everyone into PVP, there will little left to do apart from PVP.
thats what i call a short, concise and 100 percent accurate statement... totally agree!
Unrestricted PVP removes or fairly limits the non-combat activities. At the end, the game has less options and deeper ingame mechanics are uneasy to develope.
In short:
If you force everyone into PVP, there will little left to do apart from PVP.
Uhh.. Who said force people to PvP?
In EQ, from level 1-60, if anyone PvPed it would be because they are on different teams, or maybe they want to start a war.
At level 60, PvP would generally occur when 2 guilds wanted to raid the same zone.
It wasn't like you can't level up because there is always someone attacking you. Plus you could just have team based PvP systems where your own factions control certain areas and can't attack each other.
Interaction is why we play games instead of watching movies. It means having decisions, and having decisions matter.
Of course the place where world PVP has decisions that matter is that your decisions might end up having a more lasting impact on the world.
But that's 1 decision mattering per session, week, or month. Which is a big contrast to instanced PVP where most fights are filled with nonstop decisions that matter.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Unrestricted PVP removes or fairly limits the non-combat activities. At the end, the game has less options and deeper ingame mechanics are uneasy to develope.
In short:
If you force everyone into PVP, there will little left to do apart from PVP.
And if you force everyone into PvE, there will be little left to do apart from PvE.
(Unrestricted) FFA represents compulsory PVP - you will get involved into PVP even against your will = forced.
lol are you serious?
Well, it's like I said, instanced PvP is sugarcoated and world PvP is not. Of course you can have more numbers in World PvP, but at least that is more realistic and fun.
You might say "Guild X is near zone Y", and your guild + other guilds on your team form a raid to go stop Guild X from raiding zone Y. Can you do that, when your game is instanced? No
When NPCs give loot that make your guild significantly stronger, and NPCs are on 1 week respawn timers, it affects the whole server, permanently. When your guild can no longer put up a fight because they've fallen so far back in terms of gear, how is that not a lasting impact?
1 decision mattering per month? There is a lot of World PvP that goes on, especially if you are looking for it.
Instanced PvP is predictable, so it's not like you are figuring out new ways to PvP. You always will fight certain combinations in 2v2. You'll always be prepared. There is nothing dynamic about it. Other people can't just show up in the middle of your 2v2. It's predictable, there are less decisions than in a World PvP game where the environment is constantly changing.
I'll take the "unbalalance" and real PvP over sugarcoated, fake, and boring instanced PvP systems.
That is just completely incorrect. PVP can be still easily optional in PVE environment.
[Mod Edit]
(Unrestricted) FFA represents compulsory PVP - you will get involved into PVP even against your will = forced.
Views like that are the problem with PvP MMORPGs today.
They want to make it optional.. Both players have to agree to PvP. People only PvP when they are bored with every other part of the game, and both have to agree "I want to PvP now"
That is because the game doesn't have anything in it that makes people want to PvP each other naturally. For instanced, a good exp spot?
People should be able to get PKed at any time regardless of whether or not they want to PvP. That way you never know when to expect PvP. When you level up in a game like that, you are always watching out for people who are in the same area. That is what makes it fun