I don't get how it's deceitful. It's an alternate model that seems to work for a decent chunk of the MMO playing population. I've played a couple and never put a penny into them, so I don't feel like I've been tricked - correct me if I'm wrong?
Its deceitful becouse majority of people who go for those games think its free to play then company that make those games try with every method they have at there disposal try trick people or seduce them to buy items through item shops or other ways like spam with emails to buy there items.
When runes of magic beta came i try the game just to see what all hype was and offcorse i did not like it but when it launched they constantly spam me with emails to buy stuff had to put them on unwanted list hehe.
Many who play free to play are rather easy seduce while there first intention was play a free game, then after a while realise it cost them more then a subscribtion based game hehe.
It will btw in longrun DOWNFALL of free two play games people will more and more avoid those games and eather stop playing or choose game they know exactly what it will cost them every month.
With world crisis people can't take risk spent high ammounts of money on those games anymore they eather spent steady price of 15 euro's a month or none at all.
WRONG. Data shows that a MAJORITY of F2P players do NOT pay a dime. There is another thread with link to the cite. So if MOST players don't pay, this "seduction" is not that powerful, is it?
To add to nariusseldon's response, your generalizations are simply hilarious. You know what's deceitful? People looking for 'meaningful' entertainment and getting addicted to WoW because of its pavlovian techniques of "self-advancement". Call it carrot-on-a-stick seduction or whatever, but it's really THOSE people who are getting "immorally" hooked on something not even worth it in the long run.
You're all just a bunch of prejudiced wackos. Your condescending argument about people suddenly losing their free will before the might of a game company can be turned around against P2P models, and perhaps even more effectively so. Many of you literally bought into the hype of several games, from Conan to Star Trek Online, and spent hundreds of dollars in useless shit you won't ever get back and for which, up until this very day, many of you still whine your asses off in these forums ("I bought the lifetime subscription for STO and it turned out it wasn't that good! I want my money back because I'm a moron!"). In many cases, you hadn't even logged in for the first time and you had already fallen trap to all the marketing bullshit.
I don't even LIKE F2P games (at least not the ones I've tried) and here I am, defending them. You people really need to think your arguments through as much as recognizing how prejudiced you are and can be. When you articulate something worth reading as an argument against the F2P model that doesn't rely on all the ethic fallacies you keep falling in, then that's the moment when you can actually do something against it if you so like. Otherwise you'll keep merely whining as the model finds its way through your favorite games and sets an item shop for each and every one of them.
Think, and then do something useful for all of us.
Gamers of the world UNITE!! You have nothing to lose but your F2P!!
One might well say that ALL games "aren't really worth it in the long run"... They are all a waste of precious time that could be better used for more productive activities... Society and its government must stand up to these horrors and strike them down, so that they do not blight the lives of yet another generation...<Starts foaming at the mouth>
Guys, as I keep saying(over and over again...) F2P is simply another business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. If enough players vote with their wallets, fewer games will adopt it. It's really just that simple.
Ok what does getting to the top mean, some people seem to have a problem understanding this, it means reaching top level, being as good as you can in your craft, having the best house etc.
Another poster gave a list of F2P games where you pay to get to the top, so I will just specify the sort of cash shop items I am talking about. Heal scrolls that keep you levelling non stop, you take damage and are instantly healed. XP potions that give you XP. Items which give you a pvp advantage which makes you win more pvp points. These sort of items are ubiquitous in the F2P genre, and help you get to the top more quickly or beat other players in pvp.
If F2P was just about fluff items I would not care, but fluff item cash shops always become game play altering cash shops within a year or two. Once the cash shop is there the abuse of it will follow.
Sorry tapeworm00 but I already agreed that pre purchasing was a scam, I don’t see anyone here holding up P2P as faultless. It just has a fairer post launch payment system is all we are saying.
The whole free to play system reminds me of tobacco companies who used to give out free cigarettes to children to get them hooked. Soon you are buying a packet a month, then a week, then a day. I didn't take up smoking and I am not taking up F2P, as I said before the choice is yours.
The whole free to play system reminds me of tobacco companies who used to give out free cigarettes to children to get them hooked. Soon you are buying a packet a month, then a week, then a day. I didn't take up smoking and I am not taking up F2P, as I said before the choice is yours.
That is a good comparison, but like any addiction, only the weak succumb.
Free to play games give people a different choice, and let those who cant pay, still play.
At the end of the day, let they arent doing anything that hasnt been done before and it just gives more people the freedom to choose what they want to do, rather than forcing everyone down the same path of subscriptions.
If F2P was just about fluff items I would not care, but fluff item cash shops always become game play altering cash shops within a year or two. Once the cash shop is there the abuse of it will follow.
Who cares about play altering items as long as enough of the fun is free? Not everyone needs to go to the top.
Once again you only have opinoins. Data does NOT support the view that there is abuse. A MAJORITY of f2p players do not pay a cent (and once again, the link is in another thread). This is CLEAR evidence that people are exercising choice and a MAJORITY CHOSE to have fun, without going to the top, nor paying.
It is like saying selling candy is a scam because some kids have no will power and get fat on them.
I accept that the majority of players play for free. Will you tell us then what proportion of them you feel need to think they have been scammed before you accept that F2P is a scam?
Also I feel that the F2P mentality is detrimental to any sense of community, with a P2P system you are all making the same commitment to the game. F2P must have a far higher turn over of players than P2P and that means that any community is a small core of paying players. F2P has a more pick it up or drop it mentality so I just don’t see players who play for free putting in sustained input to the game. I have no figures here; MMO companies do not publish figures on player retention.
As an example of how the ‘communities’ must be split consider this, an issue which came up in DDO which has a hybrid revenue model. As such I do not count it as a F2P MMO but you can play for free. Here players were concerned that content for subscription based customers was not keeping pace with content for customers playing for free. Those who were putting money regularly into the games coffers quite rightly were concerned that there was not sufficient incentive to take up a subscription. Now in a real F2P MMO if you were a F2P paying player, would you not be concerned that you were really getting something for you money and the 'spongers' who just fill the registration figures did not get the entire game for free? What I am getting at is that F2P MMO’s, even hybrid ones create a two tier system, which is detrimental to any sense of community.
If you have examples of F2P MMO's which have a thriving community which does not have such divisions please give them.
They start adding more and more abusive stuff in the cash shop and start nerfing the game rewards more and power to force people into spending on the cash shop.
I accept that the majority of players play for free. Will you tell us then what proportion of them you feel need to think they have been scammed before you accept that F2P is a scam?
If a majority of the players make the choice of not-to-pay, it shows that "free" is a very reasonable choice. Thus, there is no deception and there is no scam.
And i also doubt even those who play will think that they have been scammed. After all, YOU think they are scammed, does not mean that they do.
Also I feel that the F2P mentality is detrimental to any sense of community, with a P2P system you are all making the same commitment to the game. F2P must have a far higher turn over of players than P2P and that means that any community is a small core of paying players. F2P has a more pick it up or drop it mentality so I just don’t see players who play for free putting in sustained input to the game. I have no figures here; MMO companies do not publish figures on player retention.
We are talking about whether F2P is a scam, not its effect on the community, which is an independent issue. To be honest, I do NOT care about the community in a F2P game. I won't be there for long anyway.
I play games for fun, not to make life long friends (which i have more than i have time for). As long as there are some friendly people to group with, who cares about if people are going to stay for long.
As elsewhere I am calling on our F2P supporters to tell us the F2P games they are playing that they enjoy. The reason I am doing this is that I think you guys have mistaken defending your game for defending a revenue system. If you only spend a small amount of time in each one that’s fine, what are you playing atm?
And here I thought the thread had finally died.....sigh. Everyone is just repeating the same thing over and over again....
That said, to answer's Scot question (because I can), I currently play Mabinogi, Dungeon Fighter Online and Heroes Of Newerth. (That's for the F2Ps, I also play 2 P2P titles at the moment (Dofus and DarkFall).
Oh and I spent 30$ on Mabinogi after having played for about a year. Bought fluff, because I felt like it. Haven't paid for anything else aside from subscription fees on P2Ps.
agree with you, I think the F2P is here to stay like it or not, I have played wow since the begining quit 2 years ago, and have not found anything that really call me to be played, I want meaning now, I see none.
all the F2P games I have tried suck bad, they are all just missing the point, not to say there are no decent ones that are AAA, theythey either miss the graphics or the story arc.
I would not mind paying from time to time, if I have a good "cause". the problem is that there are no good "causes"
Interesting, have you ever even played a f2p title? or are you just spewing blind hatred.
Even in the game that everyone says screwed up with their CS (Allods), you can buy "essential" game items on the auction house, or can get "incense" through dailies. They dont take long, and they're easy.
There, free everything. In a game that many people say "fucked up when they released the cash shop".
As elsewhere I am calling on our F2P supporters to tell us the F2P games they are playing that they enjoy. The reason I am doing this is that I think you guys have mistaken defending your game for defending a revenue system. If you only spend a small amount of time in each one that’s fine, what are you playing atm?
DDO .. ALLOD for a little bit. Global Agenda DEMO.
Oh and WOW .. i know WOW is not f2p .. but i do want to point out what ELSE do i play.
As elsewhere I am calling on our F2P supporters to tell us the F2P games they are playing that they enjoy. The reason I am doing this is that I think you guys have mistaken defending your game for defending a revenue system. If you only spend a small amount of time in each one that’s fine, what are you playing atm?
Mostly WoW these days. But I still wander into Cabal online, 2moons and Rapplez once in a while. I've played Runes of Magic, but only to late 30' early 40's as I really hate their wandering boss mobs in the quest areas. I've also played Perfect World, but its even more grind than many of the others(love the graphics and jumping though ^^). I was going to try Allods, but then the cash shop disaster blew up, and I can't see the point.
I read through the first 10 pages and kinda skimmed over everything else. The point I think most F2P naysayers are getting at is it's unfair to have someone spend money on something to be better than you? If that isn't what you are saying, then pay no attention, but if that is what you are saying (a lot of folks I know IRL think like that), try to understand it like this. You just paid about 5 grand to have the single greatest multimedia computer ever. It does anything and everything better than any other computer you have ever seen. Then you meet some guy who got the same rig a few weeks later for free. Would you not feel jipped?
Obviously, I feel that if you are playing a game and they charge you for an item you decided you want to purchase that will give you an advantage, I see nothing wrong with that. In my eyes, you get what you paid for and if you paid a lot less than someone else, you should have a lot less than someone else. I know there are games out there where the item malls sell stupid crap, and, again, you get what you pay for. You bought a stupid item, you got a stupid item. But if you want to be the best in a game you paid nothing to play, and you realize you have to pay real money to do so, don't complain. In this world money is what brought you that game that is free to play. To think you could spend not a single cent (or euro or yen or what have you) and be on par with the people who have given money to the makers of the game is shameful.
And just to be clear, despite what you may think, I absolutely HATE F2P games because I have never had as much fun in any F2P as I have in P2P games.
I read through the first 10 pages and kinda skimmed over everything else. The point I think most F2P naysayers are getting at is it's unfair to have someone spend money on something to be better than you? If that isn't what you are saying, then pay no attention, but if that is what you are saying (a lot of folks I know IRL think like that), try to understand it like this. You just paid about 5 grand to have the single greatest multimedia computer ever. It does anything and everything better than any other computer you have ever seen. Then you meet some guy who got the same rig a few weeks later for free. Would you not feel jipped?
Obviously, I feel that if you are playing a game and they charge you for an item you decided you want to purchase that will give you an advantage, I see nothing wrong with that. In my eyes, you get what you paid for and if you paid a lot less than someone else, you should have a lot less than someone else. I know there are games out there where the item malls sell stupid crap, and, again, you get what you pay for. You bought a stupid item, you got a stupid item. But if you want to be the best in a game you paid nothing to play, and you realize you have to pay real money to do so, don't complain. In this world money is what brought you that game that is free to play. To think you could spend not a single cent (or euro or yen or what have you) and be on par with the people who have given money to the makers of the game is shameful.
And just to be clear, despite what you may think, I absolutely HATE F2P games because I have never had as much fun in any F2P as I have in P2P games.
In answer to your first, no I'd not as I still have mine and all of its functionality. Why would I begrudge someone else theirs? Money and time are interchangeable. Some people have more of one, than the other. As long as one is enjoying the ride, why not focus on that?
Honestly your only duped if you actually buy from the cash shop with your own money. Otherwise your fine.
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words." -Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
I read through the first 10 pages and kinda skimmed over everything else. The point I think most F2P naysayers are getting at is it's unfair to have someone spend money on something to be better than you? If that isn't what you are saying, then pay no attention, but if that is what you are saying (a lot of folks I know IRL think like that), try to understand it like this. You just paid about 5 grand to have the single greatest multimedia computer ever. It does anything and everything better than any other computer you have ever seen. Then you meet some guy who got the same rig a few weeks later for free. Would you not feel jipped?
Obviously, I feel that if you are playing a game and they charge you for an item you decided you want to purchase that will give you an advantage, I see nothing wrong with that. In my eyes, you get what you paid for and if you paid a lot less than someone else, you should have a lot less than someone else. I know there are games out there where the item malls sell stupid crap, and, again, you get what you pay for. You bought a stupid item, you got a stupid item. But if you want to be the best in a game you paid nothing to play, and you realize you have to pay real money to do so, don't complain. In this world money is what brought you that game that is free to play. To think you could spend not a single cent (or euro or yen or what have you) and be on par with the people who have given money to the makers of the game is shameful.
And just to be clear, despite what you may think, I absolutely HATE F2P games because I have never had as much fun in any F2P as I have in P2P games.
In answer to your first, no I'd not as I still have mine and all of its functionality. Why would I begrudge someone else theirs? Money and time are interchangeable. Some people have more of one, than the other. As long as one is enjoying the ride, why not focus on that?
That's the thing thats always annoyed me about the people complaining about people "paying to win" in F2P games. What difference does it really make compare dto a P2P? Ok so you have no life and job, and can sit on WoW for 16-20 hours a day and be uber. good for you. Some of us have jobs and families to take care of and would still like to advance in our game of choice and keep up with those people who have no responsibilities. i went and worked 40 hours this week instead of spending that 40 hours gaming, and spent that money to advance in the game. Did the addicit playing nonstop work any harder than me to get where he is? hell no, i busted my ass at work the whole time because i have bills to pay, i simply exchanged that 40 hours you spent playing the game for some of the money that i earned while working those 40 hours. Rather than complaining that its not fair that i bought my stuff, because i actually take care of my shit IRL instead of spending my life in a game, you should do the same and then you can not only get an edge in the game, but also maybe start doing things like changing your underwear & showering mor ethan once or twice a week, eating healthier, getting a car and a decent place to live, get a little sun and some fresh air, etc. Just a suggestion.
I read through the first 10 pages and kinda skimmed over everything else. The point I think most F2P naysayers are getting at is it's unfair to have someone spend money on something to be better than you? If that isn't what you are saying, then pay no attention, but if that is what you are saying (a lot of folks I know IRL think like that), try to understand it like this. You just paid about 5 grand to have the single greatest multimedia computer ever. It does anything and everything better than any other computer you have ever seen. Then you meet some guy who got the same rig a few weeks later for free. Would you not feel jipped?
Obviously, I feel that if you are playing a game and they charge you for an item you decided you want to purchase that will give you an advantage, I see nothing wrong with that. In my eyes, you get what you paid for and if you paid a lot less than someone else, you should have a lot less than someone else. I know there are games out there where the item malls sell stupid crap, and, again, you get what you pay for. You bought a stupid item, you got a stupid item. But if you want to be the best in a game you paid nothing to play, and you realize you have to pay real money to do so, don't complain. In this world money is what brought you that game that is free to play. To think you could spend not a single cent (or euro or yen or what have you) and be on par with the people who have given money to the makers of the game is shameful.
And just to be clear, despite what you may think, I absolutely HATE F2P games because I have never had as much fun in any F2P as I have in P2P games.
In answer to your first, no I'd not as I still have mine and all of its functionality. Why would I begrudge someone else theirs? Money and time are interchangeable. Some people have more of one, than the other. As long as one is enjoying the ride, why not focus on that?
That's the thing thats always annoyed me about the people complaining about people "paying to win" in F2P games. What difference does it really make compare dto a P2P? Ok so you have no life and job, and can sit on WoW for 16-20 hours a day and be uber. good for you. Some of us have jobs and families to take care of and would still like to advance in our game of choice and keep up with those people who have no responsibilities. i went and worked 40 hours this week instead of spending that 40 hours gaming, and spent that money to advance in the game. Did the addicit playing nonstop work any harder than me to get where he is? hell no, i busted my ass at work the whole time because i have bills to pay, i simply exchanged that 40 hours you spent playing the game for some of the money that i earned while working those 40 hours. Rather than complaining that its not fair that i bought my stuff, because i actually take care of my shit IRL instead of spending my life in a game, you should do the same and then you can not only get an edge in the game, but also maybe start doing things like changing your underwear & showering mor ethan once or twice a week, eating healthier, getting a car and a decent place to live, get a little sun and some fresh air, etc. Just a suggestion.
If those are potshots at me they are horribly misguided as I have not played an MMO for about 6 months. I live on my own and have a decent paying job and I am currently working on a career change. I do however stick by my assertion that if someone puts forth more money into a F2P game than I do, it's only fair they are better than me, however slightly it may be. I am one of those people who understand that at times money can be tight, and i think if i spent money on something that didn't serve it's purpose, i'd be upset. You might not be, and that's cool. That is why I stay away from F2P games because that is how the infrastructure is setup and I do not enjoy it. I'd rather spend 15 a month to play a game I feel everyone is on a more level playing field. I cannot devote 20 hours a day to any game, let alone an MMO. I play with my friends and my family and we all tend to be max lvl in about 2-3 months if we spend most of our spare time playing. We are as hardcore into gaming as we possibly could be with our schedules. When WoW first came out, being lvl 30 and seeing a bunch of lvl 60s did not bother me because I understand I have limitations they do not. They put forth more effort and garner a greater reward. That is how things ought to be. Eveyr game you play you spend a type of currency universal to that game, be it legitimate currency as in money, or in intagible such as your time. If you spend more time playing and get better than me, you deserve it, same as if you spend a lot more money than me in an F2P game.
You can still spend alot of money in CS buying whatever is in it to be the flashiest, the best you can be at your skill level, until the guy that has spent less than you owns you in PVP mode or gets picked for PVE raid runs over you. I've seen people spend 10k dollars on a game and still can't play their class at all despite them having nice stuff, while a free player who puts in the time and dedication easily destroy the CSers.
CS is just a mere convenience, for people who don't have a lot of time to put in, but have a lot of money to blow. I prefer F2P games because I don't have to be bogged down with subscriptions and not playing 24/7 all the time. For some F2P is an option for people with different lifestyles compared to those that do the P2P option. Secondly, I shy away from F2P games that have in-game items in their CS therefore it becomes P2Win game. Everything else in a CS should just be for convenience and should contain no gear or stat boosters.
You can still spend alot of money in CS buying whatever is in it to be the flashiest, the best you can be at your skill level, until the guy that has spent less than you owns you in PVP mode or gets picked for PVE raid runs over you. I've seen people spend 10k dollars on a game and still can't play their class at all despite them having nice stuff, while a free player who puts in the time and dedication easily destroy the CSers.
CS is just a mere convenience, for people who don't have a lot of time to put in, but have a lot of money to blow. I prefer F2P games because I don't have to be bogged down with subscriptions and not playing 24/7 all the time. For some F2P is an option for people with different lifestyles compared to those that do the P2P option. Secondly, I shy away from F2P games that have in-game items in their CS therefore it becomes P2Win game. Everything else in a CS should just be for convenience and should contain no gear or stat boosters.
Excellent points. Skill and knowledge can only be "purchased" with time in game. Some CS's items *may* make up for a limited amount of that, but if you don't know how to play to your classes strengths, you are going to get pwned by those who do.
Ok Madnessrealm is playing 3 F2P and 2 P2P MMO’s at the same time; does that suggest anything to anyone? I think my point on the lack of commitment such players have to their MMO’s was well made. How much time can anyone put into a guild, or the games community, anyone doing this is a MMO mayfly. As to how much he has paid, fair enough he certainly has not been conned.
Nariusseldon is playing at least 2 MMO’s at the same time but no more than 3 at a time I am guessing. Again this does seem to point to a difference between us, we commit to one P2P MMO, they treat MMO’s like solo games playing multiple ones at the same time. DDO uses a hybrid revenue model, so is not really in the F2P or P2P camp, does its revenue style really need its own a three letter abbreviation before people accept this? FP2P, there you go but 4 figures.
Wraithone is playing two to four MMO’s currently bit hard to say. But once again he is treating MMO games like solo games, how are you ever going to see what depth a MMO can offer if you do that? Also as he points out it is a P2P game (WoW) that is the only one that held his interest which says it all really.
I myself am playing Lotro, I have been looking at changing MMO’s for a while but I don’t need to play loads of other MMO’s to work out that there is nothing out there right now that will make me leave Lotro. And there I think is the difference between us, I feel I have to be able to leave my current MMO before I move to the next one. Obviously once decided I try the new MMO out for a month before I cancel my old MMO’s sub. I wonder how many other P2P advocates have the same attitude?
I am sorry but the idea that putting hours in on a MMO equates to putting in hours at work made me laugh. This is chalk and cheese, you put those hours in for different reasons, one to entertain yourself, the other to pay the bills. You might as well say that anything I put hours into in my life is the same as anything else I put hours into in my life. So if I do a lot of hill walking that’s the same as gaming and working. You are using the concept of time is money to propose that all time is interchangeable with money, which is incorrect.
The fact that stupid players can still be stupid in a F2P MMO is a fair one, but does not change the essential unfairness of F2P MMO’s.
Playing three games at the same time. Naturally he cant compete in none, neither he wants to. Logically, impervious to cash shop.
Is playing many f2p games at the same time the rule? No.
He loses any credibility in denying the F2P abusive cash shops that way.
The F2P games that I played and enjoyed:
Space Cowboys, the first 3 months, before cash shop tsunami destroyed everything. There was nothing like that game elsewhere.
There was Freelancer multiplayer in certain servers, but the lack of modability and pve content threw me away.
Voyage Century, when it came, it was like Sid Meyers Pirates came alive, then in the first 3 months, the cash shop came and destroyed everything. In that game, people could enchant their equipment infinitelly for bonuses if they have enough money, yes. To the point where one player was strong enough to fight 200 other players at the same time, type with them, mock them, defeat everyone and move on.
Drift City, nothing like that in genre, only now they are making Need for Speed World Online, in Drift City, you free-roam in your car in big maps, do quests and pve content to get equipment with random bonuses alla Diablo. The cash shop promised only fluff stuff, to customize your car appearance, but truth is, without expending $300-500 bucks you cant compete, due the nature of buying "enchants" and "upgrades".
Rising Force Online, was awesome as subscription based, then they made it a free to play game, destroyed it.
Ragnarok Online, was awesome as subscription based, then they made it a free to play game, destroyed it.
I played those games only because there was no alternative in the subscription based market and only untill the cash shop destroyed them.
They change the whole game mechanics to further increase their cash shop sells, thats devious.
Perfect World, Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online, Allods, games whose makers invested millions into making, "A" class MMOs despite their faults would still be worth playing, only to be destroyed by their abusive cash shops and preventing their games to reach full potential.
Comments
Gamers of the world UNITE!! You have nothing to lose but your F2P!!
One might well say that ALL games "aren't really worth it in the long run"... They are all a waste of precious time that could be better used for more productive activities... Society and its government must stand up to these horrors and strike them down, so that they do not blight the lives of yet another generation...<Starts foaming at the mouth>
Guys, as I keep saying(over and over again...) F2P is simply another business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. If enough players vote with their wallets, fewer games will adopt it. It's really just that simple.
Ok what does getting to the top mean, some people seem to have a problem understanding this, it means reaching top level, being as good as you can in your craft, having the best house etc.
Another poster gave a list of F2P games where you pay to get to the top, so I will just specify the sort of cash shop items I am talking about. Heal scrolls that keep you levelling non stop, you take damage and are instantly healed. XP potions that give you XP. Items which give you a pvp advantage which makes you win more pvp points. These sort of items are ubiquitous in the F2P genre, and help you get to the top more quickly or beat other players in pvp.
If F2P was just about fluff items I would not care, but fluff item cash shops always become game play altering cash shops within a year or two. Once the cash shop is there the abuse of it will follow.
Sorry tapeworm00 but I already agreed that pre purchasing was a scam, I don’t see anyone here holding up P2P as faultless. It just has a fairer post launch payment system is all we are saying.
The whole free to play system reminds me of tobacco companies who used to give out free cigarettes to children to get them hooked. Soon you are buying a packet a month, then a week, then a day. I didn't take up smoking and I am not taking up F2P, as I said before the choice is yours.
That is a good comparison, but like any addiction, only the weak succumb.
Free to play games give people a different choice, and let those who cant pay, still play.
At the end of the day, let they arent doing anything that hasnt been done before and it just gives more people the freedom to choose what they want to do, rather than forcing everyone down the same path of subscriptions.
Who cares about play altering items as long as enough of the fun is free? Not everyone needs to go to the top.
Once again you only have opinoins. Data does NOT support the view that there is abuse. A MAJORITY of f2p players do not pay a cent (and once again, the link is in another thread). This is CLEAR evidence that people are exercising choice and a MAJORITY CHOSE to have fun, without going to the top, nor paying.
It is like saying selling candy is a scam because some kids have no will power and get fat on them.
I accept that the majority of players play for free. Will you tell us then what proportion of them you feel need to think they have been scammed before you accept that F2P is a scam?
Also I feel that the F2P mentality is detrimental to any sense of community, with a P2P system you are all making the same commitment to the game. F2P must have a far higher turn over of players than P2P and that means that any community is a small core of paying players. F2P has a more pick it up or drop it mentality so I just don’t see players who play for free putting in sustained input to the game. I have no figures here; MMO companies do not publish figures on player retention.
As an example of how the ‘communities’ must be split consider this, an issue which came up in DDO which has a hybrid revenue model. As such I do not count it as a F2P MMO but you can play for free. Here players were concerned that content for subscription based customers was not keeping pace with content for customers playing for free. Those who were putting money regularly into the games coffers quite rightly were concerned that there was not sufficient incentive to take up a subscription. Now in a real F2P MMO if you were a F2P paying player, would you not be concerned that you were really getting something for you money and the 'spongers' who just fill the registration figures did not get the entire game for free? What I am getting at is that F2P MMO’s, even hybrid ones create a two tier system, which is detrimental to any sense of community.
If you have examples of F2P MMO's which have a thriving community which does not have such divisions please give them.
There is none nowadays.
Once the cash shop opens, its a time bomb.
They start adding more and more abusive stuff in the cash shop and start nerfing the game rewards more and power to force people into spending on the cash shop.
Free to Play is a misnomer, or overly abbreviated, no such thing as a free lunch.
"Free to play, pay more than a sub to succeed" is how these games "should" be labeled in my opinion.
I've played f2p game and i've never been scammed.
Totally agree with this. Even after knowing this, somehow I got suckered into Evony for a month or so.
I accept that the majority of players play for free. Will you tell us then what proportion of them you feel need to think they have been scammed before you accept that F2P is a scam?
If a majority of the players make the choice of not-to-pay, it shows that "free" is a very reasonable choice. Thus, there is no deception and there is no scam.
And i also doubt even those who play will think that they have been scammed. After all, YOU think they are scammed, does not mean that they do.
Also I feel that the F2P mentality is detrimental to any sense of community, with a P2P system you are all making the same commitment to the game. F2P must have a far higher turn over of players than P2P and that means that any community is a small core of paying players. F2P has a more pick it up or drop it mentality so I just don’t see players who play for free putting in sustained input to the game. I have no figures here; MMO companies do not publish figures on player retention.
We are talking about whether F2P is a scam, not its effect on the community, which is an independent issue. To be honest, I do NOT care about the community in a F2P game. I won't be there for long anyway.
I play games for fun, not to make life long friends (which i have more than i have time for). As long as there are some friendly people to group with, who cares about if people are going to stay for long.
As elsewhere I am calling on our F2P supporters to tell us the F2P games they are playing that they enjoy. The reason I am doing this is that I think you guys have mistaken defending your game for defending a revenue system. If you only spend a small amount of time in each one that’s fine, what are you playing atm?
And here I thought the thread had finally died.....sigh. Everyone is just repeating the same thing over and over again....
That said, to answer's Scot question (because I can), I currently play Mabinogi, Dungeon Fighter Online and Heroes Of Newerth. (That's for the F2Ps, I also play 2 P2P titles at the moment (Dofus and DarkFall).
Oh and I spent 30$ on Mabinogi after having played for about a year. Bought fluff, because I felt like it. Haven't paid for anything else aside from subscription fees on P2Ps.
agree with you, I think the F2P is here to stay like it or not, I have played wow since the begining quit 2 years ago, and have not found anything that really call me to be played, I want meaning now, I see none.
all the F2P games I have tried suck bad, they are all just missing the point, not to say there are no decent ones that are AAA, theythey either miss the graphics or the story arc.
I would not mind paying from time to time, if I have a good "cause". the problem is that there are no good "causes"
That is my small grain of salt.
Interesting, have you ever even played a f2p title? or are you just spewing blind hatred.
Even in the game that everyone says screwed up with their CS (Allods), you can buy "essential" game items on the auction house, or can get "incense" through dailies. They dont take long, and they're easy.
There, free everything. In a game that many people say "fucked up when they released the cash shop".
DDO .. ALLOD for a little bit. Global Agenda DEMO.
Oh and WOW .. i know WOW is not f2p .. but i do want to point out what ELSE do i play.
Mostly WoW these days. But I still wander into Cabal online, 2moons and Rapplez once in a while. I've played Runes of Magic, but only to late 30' early 40's as I really hate their wandering boss mobs in the quest areas. I've also played Perfect World, but its even more grind than many of the others(love the graphics and jumping though ^^). I was going to try Allods, but then the cash shop disaster blew up, and I can't see the point.
I read through the first 10 pages and kinda skimmed over everything else. The point I think most F2P naysayers are getting at is it's unfair to have someone spend money on something to be better than you? If that isn't what you are saying, then pay no attention, but if that is what you are saying (a lot of folks I know IRL think like that), try to understand it like this. You just paid about 5 grand to have the single greatest multimedia computer ever. It does anything and everything better than any other computer you have ever seen. Then you meet some guy who got the same rig a few weeks later for free. Would you not feel jipped?
Obviously, I feel that if you are playing a game and they charge you for an item you decided you want to purchase that will give you an advantage, I see nothing wrong with that. In my eyes, you get what you paid for and if you paid a lot less than someone else, you should have a lot less than someone else. I know there are games out there where the item malls sell stupid crap, and, again, you get what you pay for. You bought a stupid item, you got a stupid item. But if you want to be the best in a game you paid nothing to play, and you realize you have to pay real money to do so, don't complain. In this world money is what brought you that game that is free to play. To think you could spend not a single cent (or euro or yen or what have you) and be on par with the people who have given money to the makers of the game is shameful.
And just to be clear, despite what you may think, I absolutely HATE F2P games because I have never had as much fun in any F2P as I have in P2P games.
In answer to your first, no I'd not as I still have mine and all of its functionality. Why would I begrudge someone else theirs? Money and time are interchangeable. Some people have more of one, than the other. As long as one is enjoying the ride, why not focus on that?
Honestly your only duped if you actually buy from the cash shop with your own money. Otherwise your fine.
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."
-Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
That's the thing thats always annoyed me about the people complaining about people "paying to win" in F2P games. What difference does it really make compare dto a P2P? Ok so you have no life and job, and can sit on WoW for 16-20 hours a day and be uber. good for you. Some of us have jobs and families to take care of and would still like to advance in our game of choice and keep up with those people who have no responsibilities. i went and worked 40 hours this week instead of spending that 40 hours gaming, and spent that money to advance in the game. Did the addicit playing nonstop work any harder than me to get where he is? hell no, i busted my ass at work the whole time because i have bills to pay, i simply exchanged that 40 hours you spent playing the game for some of the money that i earned while working those 40 hours. Rather than complaining that its not fair that i bought my stuff, because i actually take care of my shit IRL instead of spending my life in a game, you should do the same and then you can not only get an edge in the game, but also maybe start doing things like changing your underwear & showering mor ethan once or twice a week, eating healthier, getting a car and a decent place to live, get a little sun and some fresh air, etc. Just a suggestion.
If those are potshots at me they are horribly misguided as I have not played an MMO for about 6 months. I live on my own and have a decent paying job and I am currently working on a career change. I do however stick by my assertion that if someone puts forth more money into a F2P game than I do, it's only fair they are better than me, however slightly it may be. I am one of those people who understand that at times money can be tight, and i think if i spent money on something that didn't serve it's purpose, i'd be upset. You might not be, and that's cool. That is why I stay away from F2P games because that is how the infrastructure is setup and I do not enjoy it. I'd rather spend 15 a month to play a game I feel everyone is on a more level playing field. I cannot devote 20 hours a day to any game, let alone an MMO. I play with my friends and my family and we all tend to be max lvl in about 2-3 months if we spend most of our spare time playing. We are as hardcore into gaming as we possibly could be with our schedules. When WoW first came out, being lvl 30 and seeing a bunch of lvl 60s did not bother me because I understand I have limitations they do not. They put forth more effort and garner a greater reward. That is how things ought to be. Eveyr game you play you spend a type of currency universal to that game, be it legitimate currency as in money, or in intagible such as your time. If you spend more time playing and get better than me, you deserve it, same as if you spend a lot more money than me in an F2P game.
You can still spend alot of money in CS buying whatever is in it to be the flashiest, the best you can be at your skill level, until the guy that has spent less than you owns you in PVP mode or gets picked for PVE raid runs over you. I've seen people spend 10k dollars on a game and still can't play their class at all despite them having nice stuff, while a free player who puts in the time and dedication easily destroy the CSers.
CS is just a mere convenience, for people who don't have a lot of time to put in, but have a lot of money to blow. I prefer F2P games because I don't have to be bogged down with subscriptions and not playing 24/7 all the time. For some F2P is an option for people with different lifestyles compared to those that do the P2P option. Secondly, I shy away from F2P games that have in-game items in their CS therefore it becomes P2Win game. Everything else in a CS should just be for convenience and should contain no gear or stat boosters.
Excellent points. Skill and knowledge can only be "purchased" with time in game. Some CS's items *may* make up for a limited amount of that, but if you don't know how to play to your classes strengths, you are going to get pwned by those who do.
Ok Madnessrealm is playing 3 F2P and 2 P2P MMO’s at the same time; does that suggest anything to anyone? I think my point on the lack of commitment such players have to their MMO’s was well made. How much time can anyone put into a guild, or the games community, anyone doing this is a MMO mayfly. As to how much he has paid, fair enough he certainly has not been conned.
Nariusseldon is playing at least 2 MMO’s at the same time but no more than 3 at a time I am guessing. Again this does seem to point to a difference between us, we commit to one P2P MMO, they treat MMO’s like solo games playing multiple ones at the same time. DDO uses a hybrid revenue model, so is not really in the F2P or P2P camp, does its revenue style really need its own a three letter abbreviation before people accept this? FP2P, there you go but 4 figures.
Wraithone is playing two to four MMO’s currently bit hard to say. But once again he is treating MMO games like solo games, how are you ever going to see what depth a MMO can offer if you do that? Also as he points out it is a P2P game (WoW) that is the only one that held his interest which says it all really.
I myself am playing Lotro, I have been looking at changing MMO’s for a while but I don’t need to play loads of other MMO’s to work out that there is nothing out there right now that will make me leave Lotro. And there I think is the difference between us, I feel I have to be able to leave my current MMO before I move to the next one. Obviously once decided I try the new MMO out for a month before I cancel my old MMO’s sub. I wonder how many other P2P advocates have the same attitude?
I am sorry but the idea that putting hours in on a MMO equates to putting in hours at work made me laugh. This is chalk and cheese, you put those hours in for different reasons, one to entertain yourself, the other to pay the bills. You might as well say that anything I put hours into in my life is the same as anything else I put hours into in my life. So if I do a lot of hill walking that’s the same as gaming and working. You are using the concept of time is money to propose that all time is interchangeable with money, which is incorrect.
The fact that stupid players can still be stupid in a F2P MMO is a fair one, but does not change the essential unfairness of F2P MMO’s.
Playing three games at the same time. Naturally he cant compete in none, neither he wants to. Logically, impervious to cash shop.
Is playing many f2p games at the same time the rule? No.
He loses any credibility in denying the F2P abusive cash shops that way.
The F2P games that I played and enjoyed:
Space Cowboys, the first 3 months, before cash shop tsunami destroyed everything. There was nothing like that game elsewhere.
There was Freelancer multiplayer in certain servers, but the lack of modability and pve content threw me away.
Voyage Century, when it came, it was like Sid Meyers Pirates came alive, then in the first 3 months, the cash shop came and destroyed everything. In that game, people could enchant their equipment infinitelly for bonuses if they have enough money, yes. To the point where one player was strong enough to fight 200 other players at the same time, type with them, mock them, defeat everyone and move on.
Drift City, nothing like that in genre, only now they are making Need for Speed World Online, in Drift City, you free-roam in your car in big maps, do quests and pve content to get equipment with random bonuses alla Diablo. The cash shop promised only fluff stuff, to customize your car appearance, but truth is, without expending $300-500 bucks you cant compete, due the nature of buying "enchants" and "upgrades".
Rising Force Online, was awesome as subscription based, then they made it a free to play game, destroyed it.
Ragnarok Online, was awesome as subscription based, then they made it a free to play game, destroyed it.
I played those games only because there was no alternative in the subscription based market and only untill the cash shop destroyed them.
They change the whole game mechanics to further increase their cash shop sells, thats devious.
Perfect World, Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online, Allods, games whose makers invested millions into making, "A" class MMOs despite their faults would still be worth playing, only to be destroyed by their abusive cash shops and preventing their games to reach full potential.