As for the professional review vs crowdsourcing portion of this thread it comes down to this. One poster came close when he/she said they read both the professional reviews and the crowdsource reviews when helping them decide to buy/view something.
Crowdsourcing will tell you what is popular first and foremost and what may have more good qualities or have good qualities that are important to the majority that outweigh its bad qualities. While there is a high correlation if the majority like a product that you will like a product or if the majority dislike a product that you wont ,but it is not guaranteed.
Professional reviewers are another input source in making your decision. The best way to use professional reviewers is to find someone who reviews things in the same way you felt about the same product that they review on a regular basis. There is a high correlation that you will like what they like and you will dislike what they dislike, but again it is not guaranteed.
Thats why netflix invests so much into its recommendation algorithms. When you see a movie on their site they show you a) the overall rating for the movie/show, the critics review, and reviews from reviewers who review in a pattern most similar to you in the end this will still not guarantee how much you will like or dislike a movie/show but all of these points taken together can help you develop your best preview opinion/decision point.
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich Oh, so now you're noticing what a difference of perspective makes. Listen, if I were just using "niche" as an excuse for bad qualities, I'd know it. It's sort of hard to miss. However, as pertains to a topic of why we're seeing negative user reviews, niche incompatibility is a very fair reason. Users, unlike reviewers, are not paid to be objective - they rarely ever take pains otherwise.
Niche compatibility would then also be applied to every other game ever thereby rendering the term completely useless. Which I agree with. The term is almost completely useless when it comes to forming an opinion about in game features and elements. Edit: And can you please stop editing the hell out of your posts. You are the most editty person I have ever discussed with. And I never said that I prefer fan reviews over objective reviews or whatever you put in your last edit. See? You're still doing it. I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts. Either you simply can't believe in such a concept, or I'm just too lousy at communicating it. I edit excessively for enhanced clarity. Not that it helps much when nobody reads. You're right, I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure it's because it's nonsense. Lets look at what you say here:
"I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts."
Nonsense.
It's not nonsense.
I'll translate what he's TRYING to tell you, which is so very clear to me and others, yet which is completely obfuscating to you.
You don't send a person like me, who HATES sandbox RPGs like Morrowind, Fallout, etc etc, to review a sandbox RPG.
I'm going to give it a 0, and say don't waste your time on this tripe when you can be playing Mass Effect.
That's "niche compatibility."
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
And what about the second point i made? you know for sure we are playing a crappy game? what about people enjoy different things in life? no comment on that? ofcourse not.
point?
what point?
people like different things?
really?
great discovery there lol.
I don't care about who likes what, I'm criticizing games with obvious flaws and shortcomings, why are you feeling offended about it?
Are you working for SE? are you a shareholder? are you losing money if I don't buy the game?
What do you care?
if you like the game so much why are you wasting your free time on forums ?
You shouldn't buy games you should buy sense of humor heh.
How can you call yourself a gamer? you sound very stressed and angry...
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Oh, so now you're noticing what a difference of perspective makes.
Listen, if I were just using "niche" as an excuse for bad qualities, I'd know it. It's sort of hard to miss. However, as pertains to a topic of why we're seeing negative user reviews, niche incompatibility is a very fair reason. Users, unlike reviewers, are not paid to be objective - they rarely ever take pains otherwise.
Niche compatibility would then also be applied to every other game ever thereby rendering the term completely useless.
Which I agree with. The term is almost completely useless when it comes to forming an opinion about in game features and elements.
Edit: And can you please stop editing the hell out of your posts. You are the most editty person I have ever discussed with. And I never said that I prefer fan reviews over objective reviews or whatever you put in your last edit.
See? You're still doing it. I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts. Either you simply can't believe in such a concept, or I'm just too lousy at communicating it.
I edit excessively for enhanced clarity. Not that it helps much when nobody reads.
You're right, I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure it's because it's nonsense. Lets look at what you say here:
"I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts."
Nonsense.
It's not nonsense.
I'll translate what he's TRYING to tell you, which is so very clear to me and others, yet which is completely obfuscating to you.
You don't send a person like me, who HATES sandbox RPGs like Morrowind, Fallout, etc etc, to review a sandbox RPG.
I'm going to give it a 0, and say don't waste your time on this tripe when you can be playing Mass Effect.
That's "niche compatibility."
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
But you do send a fan of MMORPGs to rate an MMORPG.
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
And what about the second point i made? you know for sure we are playing a crappy game? what about people enjoy different things in life? no comment on that? ofcourse not.
point?
what point?
people like different things?
really?
great discovery there lol.
I don't care about who likes what, I'm criticizing games with obvious flaws and shortcomings, why are you feeling offended about it?
Are you working for SE? are you a shareholder? are you losing money if I don't buy the game?
What do you care?
if you like the game so much why are you wasting your free time on forums ?
Once again..its not about me its about you. Saying i am here 'to rub it in' or saying i know all fanboys are playing a crappy game is neither criticizing obvious flaws or shortcomings. All you do is disrupt conversation with your trolling. So i copy paste for you this again. I don't mind where people give valid points but you are not one of those people.
Trolling
Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated.
90% of haters are begging for love. 10% just want a little attention -- Paulo Coelho
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich Oh, so now you're noticing what a difference of perspective makes. Listen, if I were just using "niche" as an excuse for bad qualities, I'd know it. It's sort of hard to miss. However, as pertains to a topic of why we're seeing negative user reviews, niche incompatibility is a very fair reason. Users, unlike reviewers, are not paid to be objective - they rarely ever take pains otherwise.
Niche compatibility would then also be applied to every other game ever thereby rendering the term completely useless. Which I agree with. The term is almost completely useless when it comes to forming an opinion about in game features and elements. Edit: And can you please stop editing the hell out of your posts. You are the most editty person I have ever discussed with. And I never said that I prefer fan reviews over objective reviews or whatever you put in your last edit.
See? You're still doing it. I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts. Either you simply can't believe in such a concept, or I'm just too lousy at communicating it. I edit excessively for enhanced clarity. Not that it helps much when nobody reads.
You're right, I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure it's because it's nonsense. Lets look at what you say here:
"I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts."
Nonsense.
It's not nonsense. I'll translate what he's TRYING to tell you, which is so very clear to me and others, yet which is completely obfuscating to you. You don't send a person like me, who HATES sandbox RPGs like Morrowind, Fallout, etc etc, to review a sandbox RPG. I'm going to give it a 0, and say don't waste your time on this tripe when you can be playing Mass Effect. That's "niche compatibility." What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp. But you do send a fan of MMORPGs to rate an MMORPG.
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
MMORPG is such a broad term that it has no real meaning, especially on this site where I see games like Vindictus roaming about. This site has EXPLODED into multiple flame wars based entirety off this concept.
You don't send me to review EVE, because I don't like sandboxes, MMORPG or single-player. I tried EVE. I hated it. Just like Fallout, Morrowind, GTA, and basically anything else that just gives you a giant world without direction and just says go do shit.
I get that in the real world all day long. I have no interest in experiencing it in my video games.
So there you have it, the simple concept, so close, yet so terribly far away.
And just for the record, since I do not wish THIS post of mine to be misinterpreted by the masses, I am in no way advocating that I think FF14 is a good game.
Personally I think it's refuse. With that said, I could understand what the other FF Lover was saying, and yet you clearly could not. From speaking with you that seems to be some kind of personal failing, and I'm finding it annoying.
MMORPG is such a broad term that it has no real meaning, especially on this site where I see games like Vindictus roaming about. This site has EXPLODED into multiple flame wars based entirety off this concept.
You don't send me to review EVE, because I don't like sandboxes, MMORPG or single-player. I tried EVE. I hated it. Just like Fallout, Morrowind, GTA, and basically anything else that just gives you a giant world without direction and just says go do shit.
I get that in the real world all day long. I have no interest in experiencing it in my video games.
So there you have it, the simple concept, so close, yet so terribly far away.
And just for the record, since I do not wish THIS post of mine to be misinterpreted by the masses, I am in no way advocating that I think FF14 is a good game.
Personally I think it's refuse. With that said, I could understand what the other FF Lover was saying, and yet you clearly could not. From speaking with you that seems to be some kind of personal failing, and I'm finding it annoying.
I'm not really sure what your problem is. You say things that I disagree with often. For instance:
You think that you are an example of a reviewer that people would read. It is exactly because of your strong bias that many would not read and internalize what you had to say.
However, there are many reviewers that people do read. These people try and remain unbiased so that they can give a game a fair shake. People do not decide whether or not a reviewer was meant to review a game. They take what the reviewer has said in the past and decide if that reviewer generally understands what they also like.
Reviewers are never chosen because they "fit the niche". So to use niche compatibility as a requirement for a review is ludicrous.
Thank you for yet another insult though. It means you are running out of things to say.
Originally posted by Shiymmas Honestly, what will the fans be saying when professional reviews do come out and they're not favorable? What if the game tanks worldwide?
"Professional" reviews are unfavourable Fanboys: -"Didn't play long enough to get to the GOOD STUFF!" -"He gave <insertnotsosuckMMORPG> 8+, clearly the wrong man to review the game!" -"Niche! Not for everyone!"
Reasonable people: -"Confirms my impressions I got from the beta/forums, glad I didn't blindly purchase it."
Haters: -"TOLD YOU SO! *dance*"
"Professional" reviews are favourable Fanboys: -"Just proves that you can't trust consumer impressions/reviews *nodshead*." -"TOLD YOU SO! *dance*"
Reasonable people: -"Oh man, the community pans it and game reviewers praise it - hard to make a decision. Is there a trial/does a friend play it so I can try it out before buying it?"
Haters: -"Early game content is always polished <insertAoCreference>/didn't touch the endgame at all which sucks!" -"Probably played only 2-3 weeks max/2-4 hours max per day not noticing the soul crushing grind!"
I see "professional" reviews as a guidance made by average players(yes, most journalists are just that kind of gamers: average). Ultimately I fall back on how the community receives it and how the mood in the forums is. I'd rather believe a hardcore MMO addict who played the shit out of the game than a journalist who just barely brushed it because it was mandatory for their mag to have an article up shortly after release.
I'm not really sure what your problem is. You say things that I disagree with often.
This would make a good humorous T-Shirt slogan, simply for the irony involved in an individual who doesn't yet understand that just because they disagree with somebody it isn't grounds to assert there's something wrong with them.
I have to agree that Vagrant_Zero put it better than I did, that a fellow who doesn't like open-world sandbox RPGs shouldn't be reviewing MMORPGs. Although that Kataku reviewer was closer, he's aMMORPG player trying out a game that is not too casual friendly but clearly has demonstrated he prefers casual-friendly games in several things he says.
Another way to frame it is that you don't take a hard rock music appreciator who professes to hating classical music and send him to review an opera. There's a definate niche mismatch there. Sure, hard rock and classical are both music, but that doesn't mean somebody who likes hard rock will necessarily like classical. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be that broad: it could be you love The William Tell Overture but hate The 1812 Overture - does this mean The 1812 Overture sucks eggs for everyone? Not at all.
MMORPG is such a broad term that it has no real meaning, especially on this site where I see games like Vindictus roaming about. This site has EXPLODED into multiple flame wars based entirety off this concept. You don't send me to review EVE, because I don't like sandboxes, MMORPG or single-player. I tried EVE. I hated it. Just like Fallout, Morrowind, GTA, and basically anything else that just gives you a giant world without direction and just says go do shit. I get that in the real world all day long. I have no interest in experiencing it in my video games. So there you have it, the simple concept, so close, yet so terribly far away. And just for the record, since I do not wish THIS post of mine to be misinterpreted by the masses, I am in no way advocating that I think FF14 is a good game. Personally I think it's refuse. With that said, I could understand what the other FF Lover was saying, and yet you clearly could not. From speaking with you that seems to be some kind of personal failing, and I'm finding it annoying.
I'm not really sure what your problem is. You say things that I disagree with often. For instance:
You think that you are an example of a reviewer that people would read. It is exactly because of your strong bias that many would not read and internalize what you had to say.
However, there are many reviewers that people do read. These people try and remain unbiased so that they can give a game a fair shake. People do not decide whether or not a reviewer was meant to review a game. They take what the reviewer has said in the past and decide if that reviewer generally understands what they have to say.
Reviewers are never chosen because they "fit the niche". So to use niche compatibility as a requirement for a review is ludicrous.
Thank you for yet another insult though. It means you are running out of things to say.
The concept of a review is one of comparison. Game A is bad because Game B that plays just like it in the same genre is so much better.
But if you lack that experience because you as a whole dislike the entire genre that game A and B are in your only PROFESSIONAL recourse is to refrain from reviewing games A or B.
The logic behind that is that someone who dislikes Genre A won't be your primary readerbase on games that are in Genre A, so what is there to be gained by sending a reviewer with that same perspective? So they can not connect with your actual userbase and give a review that is largely worthless to the majority of your readers?
That's just stupid. That's what separates proper reviewers and random fans/trolls frothing at the mouth having their say.
MMORPG is such a broad term that it has no real meaning, especially on this site where I see games like Vindictus roaming about. This site has EXPLODED into multiple flame wars based entirety off this concept.
You don't send me to review EVE, because I don't like sandboxes, MMORPG or single-player. I tried EVE. I hated it. Just like Fallout, Morrowind, GTA, and basically anything else that just gives you a giant world without direction and just says go do shit.
I get that in the real world all day long. I have no interest in experiencing it in my video games.
So there you have it, the simple concept, so close, yet so terribly far away.
And just for the record, since I do not wish THIS post of mine to be misinterpreted by the masses, I am in no way advocating that I think FF14 is a good game.
Personally I think it's refuse. With that said, I could understand what the other FF Lover was saying, and yet you clearly could not. From speaking with you that seems to be some kind of personal failing, and I'm finding it annoying.
I'm not really sure what your problem is. You say things that I disagree with often. For instance:
You think that you are an example of a reviewer that people would read. It is exactly because of your strong bias that many would not read and internalize what you had to say.
However, there are many reviewers that people do read. These people try and remain unbiased so that they can give a game a fair shake. People do not decide whether or not a reviewer was meant to review a game. They take what the reviewer has said in the past and decide if that reviewer generally understands what they have to say.
Reviewers are never chosen because they "fit the niche". So to use niche compatibility as a requirement for a review is ludicrous.
Thank you for yet another insult though. It means you are running out of things to say.
The concept of a review is one of comparison. Game A is bad because Game B that plays just like it in the same genre is so much better.
But if you lack that experience because you as a whole dislike the entire genre that game A and B are in your only PROFESSIONAL recourse is to refrain from reviewing games A or B. Or review and expect to get obliterated by people who DO like that genre/subgenre.
The logic behind that is that someone who dislikes Genre A won't be your primary readerbase on games that are in Genre A, so what is there to be gained by sending a reviewer with that same prospective? So they can not connect with your actual userbase and give a review that is largely worthless to the majority of your readers?
That's just stupid. That's what separates proper reviewers and random fans/trolls frothing at the mouth.
I agree.
The only problem I have with all of this is that people are tending to assume that the reviewers lie outside the niche. I think that the vast majority are right square in the middle of the niche. Which makes the niche argument useless.
MMORPG is such a broad term that it has no real meaning, especially on this site where I see games like Vindictus roaming about. This site has EXPLODED into multiple flame wars based entirety off this concept. You don't send me to review EVE, because I don't like sandboxes, MMORPG or single-player. I tried EVE. I hated it. Just like Fallout, Morrowind, GTA, and basically anything else that just gives you a giant world without direction and just says go do shit. I get that in the real world all day long. I have no interest in experiencing it in my video games. So there you have it, the simple concept, so close, yet so terribly far away. And just for the record, since I do not wish THIS post of mine to be misinterpreted by the masses, I am in no way advocating that I think FF14 is a good game. Personally I think it's refuse. With that said, I could understand what the other FF Lover was saying, and yet you clearly could not. From speaking with you that seems to be some kind of personal failing, and I'm finding it annoying.
I'm not really sure what your problem is. You say things that I disagree with often. For instance:
You think that you are an example of a reviewer that people would read. It is exactly because of your strong bias that many would not read and internalize what you had to say.
However, there are many reviewers that people do read. These people try and remain unbiased so that they can give a game a fair shake. People do not decide whether or not a reviewer was meant to review a game. They take what the reviewer has said in the past and decide if that reviewer generally understands what they have to say.
Reviewers are never chosen because they "fit the niche". So to use niche compatibility as a requirement for a review is ludicrous.
Thank you for yet another insult though. It means you are running out of things to say.
The concept of a review is one of comparison. Game A is bad because Game B that plays just like it in the same genre is so much better. But if you lack that experience because you as a whole dislike the entire genre that game A and B are in your only PROFESSIONAL recourse is to refrain from reviewing games A or B. Or review and expect to get obliterated by people who DO like that genre/subgenre. The logic behind that is that someone who dislikes Genre A won't be your primary readerbase on games that are in Genre A, so what is there to be gained by sending a reviewer with that same prospective? So they can not connect with your actual userbase and give a review that is largely worthless to the majority of your readers? That's just stupid. That's what separates proper reviewers and random fans/trolls frothing at the mouth.
I agree.
The only problem I have with all of this is that people are tending to assume that the reviewers lie outside the niche. I think that the vast majority are right square in the middle of the niche. Which makes the niche argument useless.
On this I agree with you. There needs to be a balance struck between "does not like genre" and "loves genre". Unfortunately, since none of us have divine powers, nobody really knows where that line is and everybody just keeps throwing shit at the other side.
Personally, I would find an acceptable middle-ground in the reviewer setting aside a single page that just goes over his "review philosophy" and general likes and dislikes. That would go a LONG way into grounding anything the said reviewer says, and at least alleviate part of the problem.
But lets be honest here. People are morons. They wouldn't read it. Why would they? They don't read the actual reviews. One of the sites I formerly wrote for culled internal statistics, and one of them was that the average time spent on a review page was 7 seconds. Approximately enough time to to load the page, scroll to the bottom, and read the score.
So who am I kidding right?
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to extricate myself from the FF14 forums. Somewhere, out there, over the internet rainbow, is an imbecile who is currently finding a correlation between having companion characters in The Old Republic to the suffrage and impoverishment of the black-man during the height of slavery. This level of abject stupidity requires me delicate touches.
I enjoy the game. I'm not 'unintelligent' nor am I merely taken in by the 'shiny' newness of it. I enjoy games like this. I'm not locked into some huge quest line that I have to complete, I don't feel shuffled from one zone to the next, I can wander off with my pickaxe and gather matierials for crafting then switch to my sword for getting some xp, then come back to town to sell and craft. If you're looking for WoW, then no, this isn't your game. If you like the old school MMOs like Asheron's Call, where you can group up to grind xp one day, then wander off on your own to explore the next, then you'll probably like this game too. It's about time, patience and hard work = reward, not OMG I reached level cap in 2 days now let's raid for the next couple months until an expansion comes out.
It's all well and good for people to like different things. It's even ok for you to whine about it if you buy it and don't like it, but it's not the game's failing. The game is fine minus a few minor hiccups that always occur at the launch of a new MMO.
Originally posted by Ortisai someone asked someone playing to stop and post
here we go;
On my server, there is about 2500 people on at peak; all the sites provided gave about 200+ reviews, my server alone has more than 10x that amount. there are 17 servers, average is about 1900 people per server = 32,000 CE people total 200+ confirmed (trolling reviews) divided by 32000 is .06% of the current player base.
The haters stop playing and review, the guys that like the game, play it
Now im going back in to craft
I've seen this defense before. Aion, warhammer, hellgate london, etc.
Originally posted by Ortisai Originally posted by adam_nox
Originally posted by Ortisai someone asked someone playing to stop and post
here we go;
On my server, there is about 2500 people on at peak; all the sites provided gave about 200+ reviews, my server alone has more than 10x that amount. there are 17 servers, average is about 1900 people per server = 32,000 CE people total 200+ confirmed (trolling reviews) divided by 32000 is .06% of the current player base.
The haters stop playing and review, the guys that like the game, play it
Now im going back in to craft
I've seen this defense before. Aion, warhammer, hellgate london, etc. And non of them have Final Fantasy in the name, nor the money SE has, so whats your point
One of them had Star Wars in the name and the money of SOE. So what's YOUR point.
On my server, there is about 2500 people on at peak; all the sites provided gave about 200+ reviews, my server alone has more than 10x that amount.
there are 17 servers, average is about 1900 people per server = 32,000 CE people total
200+ confirmed (trolling reviews) divided by 32000 is .06% of the current player base.
The haters stop playing and review, the guys that like the game, play it
Now im going back in to craft
I've seen this defense before. Aion, warhammer, hellgate london, etc.
And non of them have Final Fantasy in the name, nor the money SE has, so whats your point
Warhammer is an extremely popular (world-wide) IP that's actually older than the FF series, so in that sense, his point stands. Also, Mythic isn't exactly comparable to an indie company when it comes to finance; they might not be as well off as SE, but they're not poor by any stretch of the imagination.
On my server, there is about 2500 people on at peak; all the sites provided gave about 200+ reviews, my server alone has more than 10x that amount.
there are 17 servers, average is about 1900 people per server = 32,000 CE people total
200+ confirmed (trolling reviews) divided by 32000 is .06% of the current player base.
The haters stop playing and review, the guys that like the game, play it
Now im going back in to craft
I've seen this defense before. Aion, warhammer, hellgate london, etc.
And non of them have Final Fantasy in the name, nor the money SE has, so whats your point
One of them had Star Wars in the name and the money of SOE. So what's YOUR point.
And before SOE took over SWG was great, I played for nearly two years till they completly screwed it up, SWG was fine at launch and got worse as the game got older because of the crap SOE did.
I wish i could find some japanese reviews from ffxi release, before the US got 1 year of fixes and an expansion.
I enjoy the game. I'm not 'unintelligent' nor am I merely taken in by the 'shiny' newness of it. I enjoy games like this. I'm not locked into some huge quest line that I have to complete, I don't feel shuffled from one zone to the next, I can wander off with my pickaxe and gather matierials for crafting then switch to my sword for getting some xp, then come back to town to sell and craft. If you're looking for WoW, then no, this isn't your game. If you like the old school MMOs like Asheron's Call, where you can group up to grind xp one day, then wander off on your own to explore the next, then you'll probably like this game too. It's about time, patience and hard work = reward, not OMG I reached level cap in 2 days now let's raid for the next couple months until an expansion comes out.
It's all well and good for people to like different things. It's even ok for you to whine about it if you buy it and don't like it, but it's not the game's failing. The game is fine minus a few minor hiccups that always occur at the launch of a new MMO.
This is how I feel as well. To be honest this game reminds me allot of Ultima Online(except for the prettier graphics). It is different it does not play like most MMORPGs. That is what bothers people; the fact that Final Fantasy XIV is not like other MMORPGs. It is very old fashioned in its design and honestly the only legitimate complaint that people could have is the wonky UI( now that I have been playing this game for days I can honestly say that I do loath the UI, but I still don't think it is a game-breaker issue though).
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
You cannot argue these links, people are posting factual online review sites that are rating this game as terribad
And on those same links there are plenty of people out there that are still praising this game, so it does not matter.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
I enjoy the game. I'm not 'unintelligent' nor am I merely taken in by the 'shiny' newness of it. I enjoy games like this. I'm not locked into some huge quest line that I have to complete, I don't feel shuffled from one zone to the next, I can wander off with my pickaxe and gather matierials for crafting then switch to my sword for getting some xp, then come back to town to sell and craft. If you're looking for WoW, then no, this isn't your game. If you like the old school MMOs like Asheron's Call, where you can group up to grind xp one day, then wander off on your own to explore the next, then you'll probably like this game too. It's about time, patience and hard work = reward, not OMG I reached level cap in 2 days now let's raid for the next couple months until an expansion comes out.
It's all well and good for people to like different things. It's even ok for you to whine about it if you buy it and don't like it, but it's not the game's failing. The game is fine minus a few minor hiccups that always occur at the launch of a new MMO.
This is how I feel as well. To be honest this game reminds me allot of Ultima Online(except for the prettier graphics). It is different it does not play like most MMORPGs. That is what bothers people; the fact that Final Fantasy XIV is not like other MMORPGs. It is very old fashioned in its design and honestly the only legitimate complaint that people could have is the wonky UI( now that I have been playing this game for days I can honestly say that I do loath the UI, but I still don't think it is a game-breaker issue though).
Please do not compare this to Ultima Online. The games are completely different.
And there are plenty of legitimate complaints besides the UI.
I enjoy the game. I'm not 'unintelligent' nor am I merely taken in by the 'shiny' newness of it. I enjoy games like this. I'm not locked into some huge quest line that I have to complete, I don't feel shuffled from one zone to the next, I can wander off with my pickaxe and gather matierials for crafting then switch to my sword for getting some xp, then come back to town to sell and craft. If you're looking for WoW, then no, this isn't your game. If you like the old school MMOs like Asheron's Call, where you can group up to grind xp one day, then wander off on your own to explore the next, then you'll probably like this game too. It's about time, patience and hard work = reward, not OMG I reached level cap in 2 days now let's raid for the next couple months until an expansion comes out.
It's all well and good for people to like different things. It's even ok for you to whine about it if you buy it and don't like it, but it's not the game's failing. The game is fine minus a few minor hiccups that always occur at the launch of a new MMO.
This is how I feel as well. To be honest this game reminds me allot of Ultima Online(except for the prettier graphics). It is different it does not play like most MMORPGs. That is what bothers people; the fact that Final Fantasy XIV is not like other MMORPGs. It is very old fashioned in its design and honestly the only legitimate complaint that people could have is the wonky UI( now that I have been playing this game for days I can honestly say that I do loath the UI, but I still don't think it is a game-breaker issue though).
Please do not compare this to Ultima Online. The games are completely different.
And there are plenty of legitimate complaints besides the UI.
They really are not that different, and no most of what people are complaining about is their gaming preferences not actually bad core gameplay. Most of the arguments boil down to " I just don't like how they did that" or "that is not how such and such game does it". People really need to learn how to differentiate preferences from style. Just because people are complaining does not automatically mean that what they are complaining about is a bad idea.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Comments
As for the professional review vs crowdsourcing portion of this thread it comes down to this. One poster came close when he/she said they read both the professional reviews and the crowdsource reviews when helping them decide to buy/view something.
Crowdsourcing will tell you what is popular first and foremost and what may have more good qualities or have good qualities that are important to the majority that outweigh its bad qualities. While there is a high correlation if the majority like a product that you will like a product or if the majority dislike a product that you wont ,but it is not guaranteed.
Professional reviewers are another input source in making your decision. The best way to use professional reviewers is to find someone who reviews things in the same way you felt about the same product that they review on a regular basis. There is a high correlation that you will like what they like and you will dislike what they dislike, but again it is not guaranteed.
Thats why netflix invests so much into its recommendation algorithms. When you see a movie on their site they show you a) the overall rating for the movie/show, the critics review, and reviews from reviewers who review in a pattern most similar to you in the end this will still not guarantee how much you will like or dislike a movie/show but all of these points taken together can help you develop your best preview opinion/decision point.
Which I agree with. The term is almost completely useless when it comes to forming an opinion about in game features and elements.
Edit: And can you please stop editing the hell out of your posts. You are the most editty person I have ever discussed with. And I never said that I prefer fan reviews over objective reviews or whatever you put in your last edit.
See? You're still doing it. I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts. Either you simply can't believe in such a concept, or I'm just too lousy at communicating it.
I edit excessively for enhanced clarity. Not that it helps much when nobody reads.
You're right, I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure it's because it's nonsense. Lets look at what you say here:
"I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts."
Nonsense.
It's not nonsense.
I'll translate what he's TRYING to tell you, which is so very clear to me and others, yet which is completely obfuscating to you.
You don't send a person like me, who HATES sandbox RPGs like Morrowind, Fallout, etc etc, to review a sandbox RPG.
I'm going to give it a 0, and say don't waste your time on this tripe when you can be playing Mass Effect.
That's "niche compatibility."
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
point?
what point?
people like different things?
really?
great discovery there lol.
I don't care about who likes what, I'm criticizing games with obvious flaws and shortcomings, why are you feeling offended about it?
Are you working for SE? are you a shareholder? are you losing money if I don't buy the game?
What do you care?
if you like the game so much why are you wasting your free time on forums ?
You shouldn't buy games you should buy sense of humor heh.
How can you call yourself a gamer? you sound very stressed and angry...
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
But you do send a fan of MMORPGs to rate an MMORPG.
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
Once again..its not about me its about you. Saying i am here 'to rub it in' or saying i know all fanboys are playing a crappy game is neither criticizing obvious flaws or shortcomings. All you do is disrupt conversation with your trolling. So i copy paste for you this again. I don't mind where people give valid points but you are not one of those people.
Trolling
Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated.
90% of haters are begging for love. 10% just want a little attention -- Paulo Coelho
Let's agree to disagree. This game needs a lot of work, who knows what SE has in store for the next couple of months. Hate it or love it.
SE has money, even if this game bombs harder than Hiroshima - SE will/can recover. It's just unfortunate to the player.
Niche compatibility would then also be applied to every other game ever thereby rendering the term completely useless.
Which I agree with. The term is almost completely useless when it comes to forming an opinion about in game features and elements.
Edit: And can you please stop editing the hell out of your posts. You are the most editty person I have ever discussed with. And I never said that I prefer fan reviews over objective reviews or whatever you put in your last edit.
See? You're still doing it. I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts. Either you simply can't believe in such a concept, or I'm just too lousy at communicating it.
I edit excessively for enhanced clarity. Not that it helps much when nobody reads.
You're right, I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure it's because it's nonsense. Lets look at what you say here:
"I can't seem to explain to you the differentiation between "niche compatibility" and "subjective opinion" and how such a thing as an "objective review" really eixsts."
Nonsense.
It's not nonsense.
I'll translate what he's TRYING to tell you, which is so very clear to me and others, yet which is completely obfuscating to you.
You don't send a person like me, who HATES sandbox RPGs like Morrowind, Fallout, etc etc, to review a sandbox RPG.
I'm going to give it a 0, and say don't waste your time on this tripe when you can be playing Mass Effect.
That's "niche compatibility."
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
But you do send a fan of MMORPGs to rate an MMORPG.
What a simple concept, yet so far beyond your grasp.
MMORPG is such a broad term that it has no real meaning, especially on this site where I see games like Vindictus roaming about. This site has EXPLODED into multiple flame wars based entirety off this concept.
You don't send me to review EVE, because I don't like sandboxes, MMORPG or single-player. I tried EVE. I hated it. Just like Fallout, Morrowind, GTA, and basically anything else that just gives you a giant world without direction and just says go do shit.
I get that in the real world all day long. I have no interest in experiencing it in my video games.
So there you have it, the simple concept, so close, yet so terribly far away.
And just for the record, since I do not wish THIS post of mine to be misinterpreted by the masses, I am in no way advocating that I think FF14 is a good game.
Personally I think it's refuse. With that said, I could understand what the other FF Lover was saying, and yet you clearly could not. From speaking with you that seems to be some kind of personal failing, and I'm finding it annoying.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I'm not really sure what your problem is. You say things that I disagree with often. For instance:
You think that you are an example of a reviewer that people would read. It is exactly because of your strong bias that many would not read and internalize what you had to say.
However, there are many reviewers that people do read. These people try and remain unbiased so that they can give a game a fair shake. People do not decide whether or not a reviewer was meant to review a game. They take what the reviewer has said in the past and decide if that reviewer generally understands what they also like.
Reviewers are never chosen because they "fit the niche". So to use niche compatibility as a requirement for a review is ludicrous.
Thank you for yet another insult though. It means you are running out of things to say.
"Professional" reviews are unfavourable
Fanboys:
-"Didn't play long enough to get to the GOOD STUFF!"
-"He gave <insertnotsosuckMMORPG> 8+, clearly the wrong man to review the game!"
-"Niche! Not for everyone!"
Reasonable people:
-"Confirms my impressions I got from the beta/forums, glad I didn't blindly purchase it."
Haters:
-"TOLD YOU SO! *dance*"
"Professional" reviews are favourable
Fanboys:
-"Just proves that you can't trust consumer impressions/reviews *nodshead*."
-"TOLD YOU SO! *dance*"
Reasonable people:
-"Oh man, the community pans it and game reviewers praise it - hard to make a decision. Is there a trial/does a friend play it so I can try it out before buying it?"
Haters:
-"Early game content is always polished <insertAoCreference>/didn't touch the endgame at all which sucks!"
-"Probably played only 2-3 weeks max/2-4 hours max per day not noticing the soul crushing grind!"
I see "professional" reviews as a guidance made by average players(yes, most journalists are just that kind of gamers: average).
Ultimately I fall back on how the community receives it and how the mood in the forums is. I'd rather believe a hardcore MMO addict who played the shit out of the game than a journalist who just barely brushed it because it was mandatory for their mag to have an article up shortly after release.
This would make a good humorous T-Shirt slogan, simply for the irony involved in an individual who doesn't yet understand that just because they disagree with somebody it isn't grounds to assert there's something wrong with them.
I have to agree that Vagrant_Zero put it better than I did, that a fellow who doesn't like open-world sandbox RPGs shouldn't be reviewing MMORPGs. Although that Kataku reviewer was closer, he's aMMORPG player trying out a game that is not too casual friendly but clearly has demonstrated he prefers casual-friendly games in several things he says.
Another way to frame it is that you don't take a hard rock music appreciator who professes to hating classical music and send him to review an opera. There's a definate niche mismatch there. Sure, hard rock and classical are both music, but that doesn't mean somebody who likes hard rock will necessarily like classical. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be that broad: it could be you love The William Tell Overture but hate The 1812 Overture - does this mean The 1812 Overture sucks eggs for everyone? Not at all.
The concept of a review is one of comparison. Game A is bad because Game B that plays just like it in the same genre is so much better.
But if you lack that experience because you as a whole dislike the entire genre that game A and B are in your only PROFESSIONAL recourse is to refrain from reviewing games A or B.
The logic behind that is that someone who dislikes Genre A won't be your primary readerbase on games that are in Genre A, so what is there to be gained by sending a reviewer with that same perspective? So they can not connect with your actual userbase and give a review that is largely worthless to the majority of your readers?
That's just stupid. That's what separates proper reviewers and random fans/trolls frothing at the mouth having their say.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I agree.
The only problem I have with all of this is that people are tending to assume that the reviewers lie outside the niche. I think that the vast majority are right square in the middle of the niche. Which makes the niche argument useless.
On this I agree with you. There needs to be a balance struck between "does not like genre" and "loves genre". Unfortunately, since none of us have divine powers, nobody really knows where that line is and everybody just keeps throwing shit at the other side.
Personally, I would find an acceptable middle-ground in the reviewer setting aside a single page that just goes over his "review philosophy" and general likes and dislikes. That would go a LONG way into grounding anything the said reviewer says, and at least alleviate part of the problem.
But lets be honest here. People are morons. They wouldn't read it. Why would they? They don't read the actual reviews. One of the sites I formerly wrote for culled internal statistics, and one of them was that the average time spent on a review page was 7 seconds. Approximately enough time to to load the page, scroll to the bottom, and read the score.
So who am I kidding right?
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to extricate myself from the FF14 forums. Somewhere, out there, over the internet rainbow, is an imbecile who is currently finding a correlation between having companion characters in The Old Republic to the suffrage and impoverishment of the black-man during the height of slavery. This level of abject stupidity requires me delicate touches.
I leave you all with this parting gift.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I enjoy the game. I'm not 'unintelligent' nor am I merely taken in by the 'shiny' newness of it. I enjoy games like this. I'm not locked into some huge quest line that I have to complete, I don't feel shuffled from one zone to the next, I can wander off with my pickaxe and gather matierials for crafting then switch to my sword for getting some xp, then come back to town to sell and craft. If you're looking for WoW, then no, this isn't your game. If you like the old school MMOs like Asheron's Call, where you can group up to grind xp one day, then wander off on your own to explore the next, then you'll probably like this game too. It's about time, patience and hard work = reward, not OMG I reached level cap in 2 days now let's raid for the next couple months until an expansion comes out.
It's all well and good for people to like different things. It's even ok for you to whine about it if you buy it and don't like it, but it's not the game's failing. The game is fine minus a few minor hiccups that always occur at the launch of a new MMO.
someone asked someone playing to stop and post
here we go;
On my server, there is about 2500 people on at peak; all the sites provided gave about 200+ reviews, my server alone has more than 10x that amount.
there are 17 servers, average is about 1900 people per server = 32,000 CE people total
200+ confirmed (trolling reviews) divided by 32000 is .06% of the current player base.
The haters stop playing and review, the guys that like the game, play it
Now im going back in to craft
I've seen this defense before. Aion, warhammer, hellgate london, etc.
The Wasteland - A Facebook MMORPG
And non of them have Final Fantasy in the name, nor the money SE has, so whats your point
I've seen this defense before. Aion, warhammer, hellgate london, etc.
And non of them have Final Fantasy in the name, nor the money SE has, so whats your point
One of them had Star Wars in the name and the money of SOE. So what's YOUR point.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
Warhammer is an extremely popular (world-wide) IP that's actually older than the FF series, so in that sense, his point stands. Also, Mythic isn't exactly comparable to an indie company when it comes to finance; they might not be as well off as SE, but they're not poor by any stretch of the imagination.
Just throwing that out there.
And before SOE took over SWG was great, I played for nearly two years till they completly screwed it up, SWG was fine at launch and got worse as the game got older because of the crap SOE did.
I wish i could find some japanese reviews from ffxi release, before the US got 1 year of fixes and an expansion.
Not gonna lie,
You cannot argue these links, people are posting factual online review sites that are rating this game as terribad
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This is how I feel as well. To be honest this game reminds me allot of Ultima Online(except for the prettier graphics). It is different it does not play like most MMORPGs. That is what bothers people; the fact that Final Fantasy XIV is not like other MMORPGs. It is very old fashioned in its design and honestly the only legitimate complaint that people could have is the wonky UI( now that I have been playing this game for days I can honestly say that I do loath the UI, but I still don't think it is a game-breaker issue though).
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
And on those same links there are plenty of people out there that are still praising this game, so it does not matter.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Please do not compare this to Ultima Online. The games are completely different.
And there are plenty of legitimate complaints besides the UI.
They really are not that different, and no most of what people are complaining about is their gaming preferences not actually bad core gameplay. Most of the arguments boil down to " I just don't like how they did that" or "that is not how such and such game does it". People really need to learn how to differentiate preferences from style. Just because people are complaining does not automatically mean that what they are complaining about is a bad idea.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson