Do you see the logic in saying that EVE is a delayed cash shop the way the skill training works?
In a cash job you don't have to play to be able to have access to content, just like in EVE. In this case skills that allow you to pilot/use ships & modules in game.
In a cash shop you pay a set ammount to have access to said content. In EVE the price tag on a skill is derived from your monthly sub & the time it take to train said skill. Yes! Skills definitly have a price tag just like in a cash sto
So, in WoW I pay $15 a month, play the game and get gear/XP. in EVE I pay $15 a month, play the game and get ships/SP.
EVE player A and EVE player B both pay $15 a month, and both advance at the same pace.
In random cash shop MMO player A pays $15 and advances slowly, player B pays $200 and has a crazy advantage over player A.
Back when I played EVE, I paid a monthly fee. this means it is a P2P MMO, I pay for access to the game, and as long as my $15 keeps coming my access to the servers never goes away. how I advance in the game has zero to do with how much money I spend.
Its a unique way of advancement in an MMO, but trying to connect it to a cash shop seems silly. the only advantage I can get is from starting the game before another player, which applies to most any P2P MMO who's content is updated at a pace faster than the majority of players can finish it. (See: first few years of Lineage2).
So I disagree, and I think the whole idea is grasping at straws.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Is the op trolling/baiting? Op do you understand eve at all? Sure skills are injected into your pilot and trained over time but what about the gameplay surrounding that? I need to make isk, raise standing, work on social aspects like finding a good alliance and building trust, I need to trade my stuff, haul materials off my planet and I most certainly can't blow a mother fucker up offline... I'm not paying a subscription to watch skills raise, I'm playing eve to do all that other stuff... I guess to answer you op I would say...No!! Your clueless and shouldn't post topics on games you know nothing about.
XP, skill grinding or training over time are just different ways for games to portion out the game experience.
With XP and Skill grinding, you can grind away 24/7 and get to the "end game content" faster than casual players. Or you can hire a chinese guy to push buttons for you or you may use a bot or script.
With training over time as it is in EVE, the Devs have much more control over how fast you are consuming the game. And they can better tailor new content to fit with their demographic of players. Instead of just adding end game content for the highest levels.
It means that every level of the game is populated. And while newer players wont be able to catch up in total number of skillpoint, they can specialize and be just as good or maybe even better than older player (especially if they were less focused)
And training a skill to lvl 4 in most skills is only a few percentage worse than level 5 and will usually allow you to use tech 2 modules. So even if a new player doesnt specialize, he can quickly fly most ships almost as good as someone with all 5s..
And as for PLEXes for ISK well cant say I blame CCP for adding it. Means that the money that was going to botters, hackers, and farmers are now going to programmers, artists, and earthquake victims.
Only problem with training over time is; you might be paying not 2 play. But it works for EVE cause everything else is also slow paced.
Is the op trolling/baiting? Op do you understand eve at all? Sure skills are injected into your pilot and trained over time but what about the gameplay surrounding that? I need to make isk, raise standing, work on social aspects like finding a good alliance and building trust, I need to trade my stuff, haul materials off my planet and I most certainly can't blow a mother fucker up offline... I'm not paying a subscription to watch skills raise, I'm playing eve to do all that other stuff... I guess to answer you op I would say...No!! Your clueless and shouldn't post topics on games you know nothing about.
People seem to not understand that in EVE skill training is probably the least part of 'progression'. Progression in EVE is mostly about how much fast you can make ISK, what ships you can fly well and what your support base is. At the beginning skills might dictate what you can or cannot do but a month or two in, they become secondary to things like PvP skills and market savvy.
I prefer EVE's system to a cash shop. I don't have long to play, but it's not going to hurt me in anyway, since you can train skills offline. It's true players who started before you will always be ahead, but when you start Eve, it's best to stick to one advancement path. I'm leveling everything that has to do with mining. In a few months, I'll be just as good as someone who has been playing for years skill wise, when it comes to mining only, since I'll have everything I need capped. I'm OK with not being as good at everything else. The same applies to any other advancement path.
And for those who want progression with the time they play, that's what ships are for. Only people who play a lot can save up enough ISK for the biggest ships, which IMO is like "leet gear" in other mmos.
I don't get the simalirty to cash shops either. In cash shops, money is power. In EVE, time is power. Can anyone explain why they're alike?
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Originally posted by Nekrataal Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by AlysenMinase I don't get the simalirty to cash shops either. In cash shops, money is power. In EVE, time is power. Can anyone explain why they're alike?
The OP's point is summed up thusly:
Cash Shop: Money -> PowerEVE: Money -> Time -> Power
It always costs money. EVE just makes you wait a long time in addition to the money. Well said, in the most minimalixed termes.
Problem is that formula can be used for any P2P MMO.
Cash -> Game time -> Power = Access to more content
So you either a troll, or didn't think it through to much before making a post...
Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
CCP is the one having the reign on your character, not you.
In the end, the cash shop paradigme (money = power) hold true in real time training game, money being equal to (sub + time).
The addition of the time component is absolutly superfluous & even detrimental to the game as you can't learn to use a ship/skill/module if you don't have acces to it. Its a dumb limite that is completly out of the players hands. ( Now that there's no more learning skill, only implants can affect this mechanic)
The rest is just my thoughts & suggestion to better the product.
Leave the actual game exactly as it is but make it F2P & ad a shop for skills. Thats because, to me, real time training is already a disguised cash shop that I call a "Delayed cash shop". You are allow to think i'm wrong & that I don't get the game.
I don't get the simalirty to cash shops either. In cash shops, money is power. In EVE, time is power. Can anyone explain why they're alike?
The OP's point is summed up thusly:
Cash Shop: Money -> PowerEVE: Money -> Time -> Power
It always costs money. EVE just makes you wait a long time in addition to the money.
Well said, in the most minimalixed termes.
Problem is that formula can be used for any P2P MMO.
Cash -> Game time -> Power = Access to more content
So you either a troll, or didn't think it through to much before making a post...
I think its you who doesn't think through, but whatever.
The rate of progress is fixed by CCP & is independant of efforts put in. If you fail to see that, I don't what else to say to you...
The following is not addressed to you personnally.
Please stop with your "Progress can be other thing than skill". No, just no. In EVE, all the progress comes from being able to acces game content through trained skills. Nothing can be done without the proper skill & thats a fact.
Problem is that formula can be used for any P2P MMO.
Cash -> Game time -> Power = Access to more content
So you either a troll, or didn't think it through to much before making a post...
In typical MMOs power increases as a partial function of Player Skill. Player Skill is the element missing from EVE (just as it's missing from buying items in item shops -- even though typical F2P progression without buying stuff is the same)
It's a really big difference.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Nekrataal Originally posted by AlysenMinase Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
No it's not, in most MMOs with levels time spent > effort.
Two players of equal skill and effort put in game, will progress with different speeds depending on which one puts how much time into it.
Even in end game, guy with more time at his hands will gear/gain power faster which will give him access to higher tier content faster.
So again, assuming two players similar in skill/effort your power is decided mainly by time spent and some rng.
In games with real time skill progression, every character progresses equally fast, so in the end what really differs one avatar from other in terms of power is your decisions as a player, which skills and in what order you train. So IMO using your logic MMOs with Real Time training are further away from cash shop then your average P2P MMO with levels
It means that every level of the game is populated.
This.
Because instead of leveling, you can actually play the game.
This is pretty much my take on it as well.
To add my own thoughts:
Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't.
If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
No it's not, in most MMOs with levels time spent > effort.
Two players of equal skill and effort put in game, will progress with different speeds depending on which one puts how much time into it.
Even in end game, guy with more time at his hands will gear/gain power faster which will give him access to higher tier content faster.
So again, assuming two players similar in skill/effort your power is decided mainly by time spent and some rng.
In games with real time skill progression, every character progresses equally fast, so in the end what really differs one avatar from other in terms of power is your decisions as a player, which skills and in what order you train. So IMO using your logic MMOs with Real Time training are further away from cash shop then your average P2P MMO with levels
What you are talking about is (time + effort = power) whilst in real time training game, only time, in & on itself, makes you "lvl". Hello?
Like I pointed out before though, Eve has ways of getting better while playing, as in better ships/modules/implants/etc. It's not just about how long it takes to learn a skill, it's the time the player puts in the game that determines what ratings they have with agents and what they have in the game. You can be subbed for years to learn every skill, but if you put no time in the game, someone who played a few months can do more than you.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Like I pointed out before though, Eve has ways of getting better while playing, as in better ships/modules/implants/etc. It's not just about how long it takes to learn a skill, it's the time the player puts in the game that determines what ratings they have with agents and what they have in the game. You can be subbed for years to learn every skill, but if you put no time in the game, someone who played a few months can do more than you.
Sure, but the most substantial cap (by far) are the skill requirements.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It means that every level of the game is populated.
This.
Because instead of leveling, you can actually play the game.
This is pretty much my take on it as well.
To add my own thoughts:
Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't.
If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
Gringing is done on other thing than skill in EVE so I really don't see the pertinance of that.
I think you are attibuting an effect to real time training that would be also true if you used any other from of progression in an EVE type game. Most people would specialize & they would gradually expand ther skill from there.
Like I pointed out before though, Eve has ways of getting better while playing, as in better ships/modules/implants/etc. It's not just about how long it takes to learn a skill, it's the time the player puts in the game that determines what ratings they have with agents and what they have in the game. You can be subbed for years to learn every skill, but if you put no time in the game, someone who played a few months can do more than you.
Without access to the skills, everything you're saying can't be done. Once you have the skills, fine. Its not the point though... the point is how you acquire those skills.
Originally posted by Nekrataal Originally posted by goatus
Originally posted by Nekrataal
Originally posted by AlysenMinase Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
No it's not, in most MMOs with levels time spent > effort. Two players of equal skill and effort put in game, will progress with different speeds depending on which one puts how much time into it. Even in end game, guy with more time at his hands will gear/gain power faster which will give him access to higher tier content faster. So again, assuming two players similar in skill/effort your power is decided mainly by time spent and some rng. In games with real time skill progression, every character progresses equally fast, so in the end what really differs one avatar from other in terms of power is your decisions as a player, which skills and in what order you train. So IMO using your logic MMOs with Real Time training are further away from cash shop then your average P2P MMO with levels
What you are talking about is (time + effort = power) whilst in real time training game, only time, in & on itself, makes you "lvl". Hello?
No it's not what I'im saying. I believe you should reread my post...
Time > effort, in leveling game, time is main factor for power of your avatar, more time you spent more powerful it gets. Even if you put all the effort you can, but play very little you will never by at the top.
In eve time is totally taken out of the equation, what is left is your effort to take right skills and make right decisions (at least in terms of avatar progression, not gear/currency)
Originally posted by Nekrataal Please stop with your "Progress can be other thing than skill". No, just no. In EVE, all the progress comes from being able to acces game content through trained skills. Nothing can be done without the proper skill & thats a fact.
So what you are saying is that i can buy and fully fit my top tier ship (and afford to lose it if things go south) without putting some effort into earning isk? Or maybe that i can fly it to top tier pve missions without putting effort to gain good standings with agents. Or do well in pvp without actually getting some friends and social "progression"?
BTW i don't play eve, just so you know.
Originally posted by Axehilt In typical MMOs power increases as a partial function of Player Skill. Player Skill is the element missing from EVE (just as it's missing from buying items in item shops -- even though typical F2P progression without buying stuff is the same) It's a really big difference.
Partial being keyword here.
Main variable in that function in your typical mmo is time spent. In eve there is also time spent variable, but it's much less important than in lvl based mmos. And for sure there is also skill variable, claiming otherwise is being in denial. I can't just pick random skills and hope for the best, can't fit random stuff on ship and be viable etc.
Originally posted by Nekrataal Originally posted by mklinic This is pretty much my take on it as well. To add my own thoughts: Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't. If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
In short, I don't agree with you.
Fortunately your disagreement has no meaning nor value because you fundamentally not understand the game principles...such as that there is no progression in EVE Online. There is no goal no path to follow, a line you could progress along...
Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
No. In P2P MMORPGs, time is irrelevant. Your progress is based on content completed.
You must kill 1,000 Mobs or complete 100 quests, to make the next level.
It makes no difference if that takes you a week, a month, or a year. You must do the content to progress.
You cannot skip the content with time, simply doing nothing but paying your sub fee, you cannot skip the content with xp potions, or higher stat items.
You have to do the quests, and kill the mobs, no way around it.
Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
No it's not, in most MMOs with levels time spent > effort.
Two players of equal skill and effort put in game, will progress with different speeds depending on which one puts how much time into it.
Even in end game, guy with more time at his hands will gear/gain power faster which will give him access to higher tier content faster.
So again, assuming two players similar in skill/effort your power is decided mainly by time spent and some rng.
In games with real time skill progression, every character progresses equally fast, so in the end what really differs one avatar from other in terms of power is your decisions as a player, which skills and in what order you train. So IMO using your logic MMOs with Real Time training are further away from cash shop then your average P2P MMO with levels
What you are talking about is (time + effort = power) whilst in real time training game, only time, in & on itself, makes you "lvl". Hello?
No it's not what I'im saying. I believe you should reread my post...
Time > effort, in leveling game, time is main factor for power of your avatar, more time you spent more powerful it gets. Even if you put all the effort you can, but play very little you will never by at the top.
In eve time is totally taken out of the equation, what is left is your effort to take right skills and make right decisions (at least in terms of avatar progression, not gear/currency)
Originally posted by Nekrataal
Please stop with your "Progress can be other thing than skill". No, just no. In EVE, all the progress comes from being able to acces game content through trained skills. Nothing can be done without the proper skill & thats a fact.
So what you are saying is that i can buy and fully fit my top tier ship (and afford to lose it if things go south) without putting some effort into earning isk? Or maybe that i can fly it to top tier pve missions without putting effort to gain good standings with agents. Or do well in pvp without actually getting some friends and social "progression"?
BTW i don't play eve, just so you know.
Originally posted by Axehilt
In typical MMOs power increases as a partial function of Player Skill. Player Skill is the element missing from EVE (just as it's missing from buying items in item shops -- even though typical F2P progression without buying stuff is the same)
It's a really big difference.
Partial being keyword here.
Main variable in that function in your typical mmo is time spent. In eve there is also time spent variable, but it's much less important than in lvl based mmos. And for sure there is also skill variable, claiming otherwise is being in denial. I can't just pick random skills and hope for the best, can't fit random stuff on ship and be viable etc.
All I have to say for the last time is; Everything you do in EVE, including making isk, etc. (EVERYTHING), is derived form skills on which you have no control, or barely any (implants), on how fast they can be acquired.
Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't.
If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
In short, I don't agree with you.
Fortunately your disagreement has no meaning nor value because you fundamentally not understand the game principles...such as that there is no progression in EVE Online. There is no goal no path to follow, a line you could progress along...
& blablabla... Right, there is no preogession in EVE online. Do I really have to... nope.
Comments
So, in WoW I pay $15 a month, play the game and get gear/XP. in EVE I pay $15 a month, play the game and get ships/SP.
EVE player A and EVE player B both pay $15 a month, and both advance at the same pace.
In random cash shop MMO player A pays $15 and advances slowly, player B pays $200 and has a crazy advantage over player A.
Back when I played EVE, I paid a monthly fee. this means it is a P2P MMO, I pay for access to the game, and as long as my $15 keeps coming my access to the servers never goes away. how I advance in the game has zero to do with how much money I spend.
Its a unique way of advancement in an MMO, but trying to connect it to a cash shop seems silly. the only advantage I can get is from starting the game before another player, which applies to most any P2P MMO who's content is updated at a pace faster than the majority of players can finish it. (See: first few years of Lineage2).
So I disagree, and I think the whole idea is grasping at straws.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
XP, skill grinding or training over time are just different ways for games to portion out the game experience.
With XP and Skill grinding, you can grind away 24/7 and get to the "end game content" faster than casual players. Or you can hire a chinese guy to push buttons for you or you may use a bot or script.
With training over time as it is in EVE, the Devs have much more control over how fast you are consuming the game. And they can better tailor new content to fit with their demographic of players. Instead of just adding end game content for the highest levels.
It means that every level of the game is populated. And while newer players wont be able to catch up in total number of skillpoint, they can specialize and be just as good or maybe even better than older player (especially if they were less focused)
And training a skill to lvl 4 in most skills is only a few percentage worse than level 5 and will usually allow you to use tech 2 modules. So even if a new player doesnt specialize, he can quickly fly most ships almost as good as someone with all 5s..
And as for PLEXes for ISK well cant say I blame CCP for adding it. Means that the money that was going to botters, hackers, and farmers are now going to programmers, artists, and earthquake victims.
Only problem with training over time is; you might be paying not 2 play. But it works for EVE cause everything else is also slow paced.
This.
Because instead of leveling, you can actually play the game.
People seem to not understand that in EVE skill training is probably the least part of 'progression'. Progression in EVE is mostly about how much fast you can make ISK, what ships you can fly well and what your support base is. At the beginning skills might dictate what you can or cannot do but a month or two in, they become secondary to things like PvP skills and market savvy.
I prefer EVE's system to a cash shop. I don't have long to play, but it's not going to hurt me in anyway, since you can train skills offline. It's true players who started before you will always be ahead, but when you start Eve, it's best to stick to one advancement path. I'm leveling everything that has to do with mining. In a few months, I'll be just as good as someone who has been playing for years skill wise, when it comes to mining only, since I'll have everything I need capped. I'm OK with not being as good at everything else. The same applies to any other advancement path.
And for those who want progression with the time they play, that's what ships are for. Only people who play a lot can save up enough ISK for the biggest ships, which IMO is like "leet gear" in other mmos.
I don't get the simalirty to cash shops either. In cash shops, money is power. In EVE, time is power. Can anyone explain why they're alike?
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
The OP's point is summed up thusly:
Cash Shop: Money -> Power
EVE: Money -> Time -> Power
It always costs money. EVE just makes you wait a long time in addition to the money.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wouldn't that be the same for any MMO? It takes time to level?
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
Well said, in the most minimalized termes.
The OP's point is summed up thusly:
It always costs money. EVE just makes you wait a long time in addition to the money.
Well said, in the most minimalixed termes.
Problem is that formula can be used for any P2P MMO.
Cash -> Game time -> Power = Access to more content
So you either a troll, or didn't think it through to much before making a post...
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
CCP is the one having the reign on your character, not you.
In the end, the cash shop paradigme (money = power) hold true in real time training game, money being equal to (sub + time).
The addition of the time component is absolutly superfluous & even detrimental to the game as you can't learn to use a ship/skill/module if you don't have acces to it. Its a dumb limite that is completly out of the players hands. ( Now that there's no more learning skill, only implants can affect this mechanic)
The rest is just my thoughts & suggestion to better the product.
Leave the actual game exactly as it is but make it F2P & ad a shop for skills. Thats because, to me, real time training is already a disguised cash shop that I call a "Delayed cash shop". You are allow to think i'm wrong & that I don't get the game.
I think its you who doesn't think through, but whatever.
The rate of progress is fixed by CCP & is independant of efforts put in. If you fail to see that, I don't what else to say to you...
The following is not addressed to you personnally.
Please stop with your "Progress can be other thing than skill". No, just no. In EVE, all the progress comes from being able to acces game content through trained skills. Nothing can be done without the proper skill & thats a fact.
In typical MMOs power increases as a partial function of Player Skill. Player Skill is the element missing from EVE (just as it's missing from buying items in item shops -- even though typical F2P progression without buying stuff is the same)
It's a really big difference.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No it's not, in most MMOs with levels time spent > effort.
Two players of equal skill and effort put in game, will progress with different speeds depending on which one puts how much time into it.
Even in end game, guy with more time at his hands will gear/gain power faster which will give him access to higher tier content faster.
So again, assuming two players similar in skill/effort your power is decided mainly by time spent and some rng.
In games with real time skill progression, every character progresses equally fast, so in the end what really differs one avatar from other in terms of power is your decisions as a player, which skills and in what order you train. So IMO using your logic MMOs with Real Time training are further away from cash shop then your average P2P MMO with levels
This is pretty much my take on it as well.
To add my own thoughts:
Never once have I felt I was being denied content due to a training queue. Instead of "chopping wood" for hours on end, I'm actually playing the game with other people who might have trained up skills in areas that I haven't.
If anything, I think the time-based skill training promotes character specialization and, subsequently player interdependence which is something missing from a lot of the MMO's out there.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
What you are talking about is (time + effort = power) whilst in real time training game, only time, in & on itself, makes you "lvl". Hello?
Like I pointed out before though, Eve has ways of getting better while playing, as in better ships/modules/implants/etc. It's not just about how long it takes to learn a skill, it's the time the player puts in the game that determines what ratings they have with agents and what they have in the game. You can be subbed for years to learn every skill, but if you put no time in the game, someone who played a few months can do more than you.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
Sure, but the most substantial cap (by far) are the skill requirements.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gringing is done on other thing than skill in EVE so I really don't see the pertinance of that.
I think you are attibuting an effect to real time training that would be also true if you used any other from of progression in an EVE type game. Most people would specialize & they would gradually expand ther skill from there.
In short, I don't agree with you.
Without access to the skills, everything you're saying can't be done. Once you have the skills, fine. Its not the point though... the point is how you acquire those skills.
In other form of progression in MMO's effort is rewarded not time spent itself.
No it's not, in most MMOs with levels time spent > effort.
Two players of equal skill and effort put in game, will progress with different speeds depending on which one puts how much time into it.
Even in end game, guy with more time at his hands will gear/gain power faster which will give him access to higher tier content faster.
So again, assuming two players similar in skill/effort your power is decided mainly by time spent and some rng.
In games with real time skill progression, every character progresses equally fast, so in the end what really differs one avatar from other in terms of power is your decisions as a player, which skills and in what order you train. So IMO using your logic MMOs with Real Time training are further away from cash shop then your average P2P MMO with levels
What you are talking about is (time + effort = power) whilst in real time training game, only time, in & on itself, makes you "lvl". Hello?
No it's not what I'im saying. I believe you should reread my post...
Time > effort, in leveling game, time is main factor for power of your avatar, more time you spent more powerful it gets. Even if you put all the effort you can, but play very little you will never by at the top.
In eve time is totally taken out of the equation, what is left is your effort to take right skills and make right decisions (at least in terms of avatar progression, not gear/currency)
So what you are saying is that i can buy and fully fit my top tier ship (and afford to lose it if things go south) without putting some effort into earning isk? Or maybe that i can fly it to top tier pve missions without putting effort to gain good standings with agents. Or do well in pvp without actually getting some friends and social "progression"?
BTW i don't play eve, just so you know.
Partial being keyword here.
Main variable in that function in your typical mmo is time spent. In eve there is also time spent variable, but it's much less important than in lvl based mmos. And for sure there is also skill variable, claiming otherwise is being in denial. I can't just pick random skills and hope for the best, can't fit random stuff on ship and be viable etc.
Fortunately your disagreement has no meaning nor value because you fundamentally not understand the game principles...such as that there is no progression in EVE Online. There is no goal no path to follow, a line you could progress along...
No. In P2P MMORPGs, time is irrelevant. Your progress is based on content completed.
You must kill 1,000 Mobs or complete 100 quests, to make the next level.
It makes no difference if that takes you a week, a month, or a year. You must do the content to progress.
You cannot skip the content with time, simply doing nothing but paying your sub fee, you cannot skip the content with xp potions, or higher stat items.
You have to do the quests, and kill the mobs, no way around it.
All I have to say for the last time is; Everything you do in EVE, including making isk, etc. (EVERYTHING), is derived form skills on which you have no control, or barely any (implants), on how fast they can be acquired.
Thats all there is to it.
& blablabla... Right, there is no preogession in EVE online. Do I really have to... nope.
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