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An Important Announcement for FINAL FANTASY XIV Fans

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  • deltiordeltior Member UncommonPosts: 50

    Originally posted by Paradoxy

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    See... this is what I'm talking about.

    So let's see...


    • They've apologized numerous times.

    • They've not charged anyone a single subscription fee 'til now and are not going to until some point in the future when they feel it's warranted.

    • They have indicated, time and again, that the game launched in a non-ready state.

    • They have stated that major changes have to take place to bring the game back.

    • They have stated that they know they have to win back the players' trust if the game is to succeed.

    • The Producer has admitted failure in taking the game in the right direction, has stepped down and let someone else take their place.

    • They're re-organizing the team, shuffling around some positions, bringing in new people from other projects, etc to get it on the right track.

    They've done everything - and more - that players of other MMOs have stated "would be satisfactory" from the developers in the fall-out of their launches. Those are the key things that, time and again, players have stated would make them feel better about the situation, for FFXIV *and* for other MMOs with similarly poor launches.

    And yet, when SE does *just that*... it's "still not enough" for some. They move the goalpost and set the bar higher.

    Does the FFXIV development team have to personally visit everyone who bought the game, kneel at their feet and beg  forgiveness over and over?

    The truth is, regardless of what they do, it never *will* be enough for some people.

    That's my point. Thank you for helping me make it.

    Even if they get the game to the point of being "perfect" (note the quotations there), and it's everything players expected and more. There are some who would *still* say "Nope... Too little too late. They should have released the game like this at launch. The game is a failure and they should just admit they failed and pull the plug".

    No, sympathy and thanks are not "necessary", nor have I ever indicated such. Don't put words in my mouth.

    However, I think some acknowledgment that "Hey.. they're not blowing us off, they are taking it seriously, they are doing what they can to fix it... and we're not paying a sub in the meantime" would be appropriate. I'm not saying pull out the champaign and party-poppers. I'm saying some recognition that they're actually not blowing everything and everyone off wouldn't be out-of-line.

    But that's too much for some, apparently. If SE said/did nothing it would be "They're too arrogant! They don't care about their game or their players! They want the game to fail!". However, when they demonstrate that they do care about the players, that they don't want the game to fail and that they want it to succeed... then it's "not enough".

    Some people aren't truly interested in seeing things improve. They don't really want an apology, nor do they care if they get one. They just want to complain and see others squirm as they keep kicking them. For some - not all - that's all this boils down to.

    As for your last statement.. Careful on your high horse. *Most* people acknowledge the issues the game has. *Many* people in Alpha and Beta stated things weren't looking ready and the game needed more time. Yes, I was there and yes I read the beta forums. If anything, over time, the people who thought "everythign was fine" were outnumbered by those who thought it wasn't.

    Are you surprised? MMO players are not forgiving. Once you botch the launch, there is no way to rise up to the par. A company can try its best and make all the changes they can but in the eyes of MMO players it will never ever be good enough is it unfair? maybe but that is how it is and this is not going to change anytime sooner.

    SE had all the warnings and feedback it needed in clsoed beta but they went ahead and released the game anyways. I guess that is what makes players angry the most. And now SE can make excuses, apologies and what not but i don't think it is going to make much difference in changing players opinions. This is not the first MMO by the way where huge changes in development teams were made so it is not as if SE is doing something special. 

    Moreover, don't confuse will with want. If SE could they would be charging us monthly fee right now. They are not doing it out of good will or because they care. They just don't have enough players in game left to charge a monthly fee. Once subscription cycle comes into effect they will further lose players.

    Also, i disagree that players who thought 'everything is fine' were outnumbered by those who thought it wasn't. Fans were running rampant and snubbing anyone who was trying to criticise the game. They were told to go away and stop playing and this went on well for good two months and look where are we now. All those critics and unhappy players took advice of rabid fans and they left. All this time, fans have been blaming everyone except for the company itself.

    If reviews are low because it is biased or reviewing websites are unprofessional. if someone is unhappy it is because they are playing the game wrong, if players think there is too much time sink, they are just 'WOW babies', if someone is looking for more quests and content they should just 'go back to WOW'. .and i can give you numerous examples of typical fanboyism. So i can totally understand where all this anger is coming from.

     Nothing to add... Paradoxy is exactly right. The question is : I really wonder if all the fanboys you were talking about begin to realize that they are dumb or not. Well, let s say that if they are under 12, they are just young, but for the rest ... oh  ... my ... god!

    image

  • BelarionBelarion Member Posts: 570

    Originally posted by Nikkita

    Originally posted by Leucent

    The bottom line is they re doing something no company has done in the history of MMOs, or at least to my knowledge. The fact they re not charging anyone until they feel it s warranted, is admitting they f'd up and are not going to charge anyone till they ve fixed it. I can salute that for this, and will now give it another shot just on this alone. I truly think it will become the game I was hoping for, when, not sure, but it will one day soon.

    Its not like SE has 200K+ players in game right now and they decided to hold of charging fee. They are not charging any money because they don't have enough players in game. Population has been dwindling for two months now and i would be very generous if i say that there are active 100K players in game right now. Charging monthly fee means losing whatever player base is left. So you might look at it some kind of good gesture towards the players, but in my opinion its more of a helpless feeling.

    You know I wasn't thinking about it that way untill I read that from you and a few others just now. I guess if they tried to charge sub fee in this state they'd lose even more players. Like me for instance.

    I love snails.
    I love every kinda snail.
    I just want to hug them all, but I cant.
    Cant hug every snail.

  • NikkitaNikkita Member Posts: 790

    Originally posted by Belarion

    Originally posted by Nikkita


    Originally posted by Leucent

    The bottom line is they re doing something no company has done in the history of MMOs, or at least to my knowledge. The fact they re not charging anyone until they feel it s warranted, is admitting they f'd up and are not going to charge anyone till they ve fixed it. I can salute that for this, and will now give it another shot just on this alone. I truly think it will become the game I was hoping for, when, not sure, but it will one day soon.

    Its not like SE has 200K+ players in game right now and they decided to hold of charging fee. They are not charging any money because they don't have enough players in game. Population has been dwindling for two months now and i would be very generous if i say that there are active 100K players in game right now. Charging monthly fee means losing whatever player base is left. So you might look at it some kind of good gesture towards the players, but in my opinion its more of a helpless feeling.

    You know I wasn't thinking about it that way untill I read that from you and a few others just now. I guess if they tried to charge sub fee in this state they'd lose even more players. Like me for instance.

    Yes, but as usual fans try to put positive spin on everything SE does and label it 'they care'. Hell they do care but only to save their behinds right now. Would SE stop charging us if they had enough players to draw sub from? nope.

    image


    Bite Me

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Originally posted by Nikkita

    Originally posted by Belarion


    Originally posted by Nikkita


    Originally posted by Leucent

    The bottom line is they re doing something no company has done in the history of MMOs, or at least to my knowledge. The fact they re not charging anyone until they feel it s warranted, is admitting they f'd up and are not going to charge anyone till they ve fixed it. I can salute that for this, and will now give it another shot just on this alone. I truly think it will become the game I was hoping for, when, not sure, but it will one day soon.

    Its not like SE has 200K+ players in game right now and they decided to hold of charging fee. They are not charging any money because they don't have enough players in game. Population has been dwindling for two months now and i would be very generous if i say that there are active 100K players in game right now. Charging monthly fee means losing whatever player base is left. So you might look at it some kind of good gesture towards the players, but in my opinion its more of a helpless feeling.

    You know I wasn't thinking about it that way untill I read that from you and a few others just now. I guess if they tried to charge sub fee in this state they'd lose even more players. Like me for instance.

    Yes, but as usual fans try to put positive spin on everything SE does and label it 'they care'. Hell they do care but only to save their behinds right now. Would SE stop charging us if they had enough players to draw sub from? nope.

    To be perfectly honest, all publicly listed companies do not care (or more accurately; can't care).

    They have shareholders they have to keep happy.

    Capitalism! Embrace it! :P

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Belarion

    Did I just read that?

    Any respect I had for you went right out the window.  Its just about the rudest snd downright ignorant thing you have ever said.  Im awed by how breathtakingly obnoxious you are.

    "Humans should be pampered for their stupidity, and not blamed for their own mistakes."

    Idiocracy is soon not just a movie anymore.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Nikkita

    Yes, but as usual fans try to put positive spin on everything SE does and label it 'they care'. Hell they do care but only to save their behinds right now. Would SE stop charging us if they had enough players to draw sub from? nope.

    "If the game was good enough that it would be worth subbing for, would SE charge us a fee?"

    lol. Think a bit about what you're saying. Why wouldn't they? Because they are a charity foundation?

    Water is wet.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • NikkitaNikkita Member Posts: 790

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Originally posted by Nikkita



    Yes, but as usual fans try to put positive spin on everything SE does and label it 'they care'. Hell they do care but only to save their behinds right now. Would SE stop charging us if they had enough players to draw sub from? nope.

    "If the game was good enough that it would be worth subbing for, would SE charge us a fee?"

    lol. Think a bit about what you're saying. Why wouldn't they? Because they are a charity foundation?

    Water is wet.

    You surprised i am stating the obvious? where have you been? i am sorry but one has to do this from time to time considering some people are too busy singing praises for SE with eyes closed.

    if this obvious truth was such a general knowledge fans wouldn't be telling everyone that  SE is not charging us fee because they 'care'.

    image


    Bite Me

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada Member UncommonPosts: 1,282

    Well, this case is a sign of our time and how deep and bad we have sunken into mediocrity.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Nikkita

    You surprised i am stating the obvious? where have you been? i am sorry but one has to do this from time to time considering some people are too busy singing praises for SE with eyes closed.

    if this obvious truth was such a general knowledge fans wouldn't be telling everyone that  SE is not charging us fee because they 'care'.

    That is stupid. They do it because it's the right thing to do, which is why they should be praised. They might as well charge us anyway and that would be the wrong thing to do. Good management and development decisions will save the game, not "caring".

    No company in the world "cares" about anything other than the bottom line. Goddamn.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • DecadentiaDecadentia Member Posts: 464

    Wondering if someone can help me with some info...

    I played in the first year or two of this game and absolutely loved it. However, I was younger, had copious amounts of free time and could grind 24/7 to level. I don't remember this "campaign" type deal, all I remember is the game required you to play like it was a full time job to get anywhere. To the question...I can't afford to put in nearly as much time as I did before anymore, i'd say i'm closer to a casual player than anything these days...Is FFXIV similar to this? Does it require as much time as FFXI?

    FFXI was most likely my favorite MMO experience, simply due to the difficulty it posed along with the grouping was amazing.

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Decadentia

    Wondering if someone can help me with some info...

    I played in the first year or two of this game and absolutely loved it. However, I was younger, had copious amounts of free time and could grind 24/7 to level. I don't remember this "campaign" type deal, all I remember is the game required you to play like it was a full time job to get anywhere. To the question...I can't afford to put in nearly as much time as I did before anymore, i'd say i'm closer to a casual player than anything these days...Is FFXIV similar to this? Does it require as much time as FFXI?

    FFXI was most likely my favorite MMO experience, simply due to the difficulty it posed along with the grouping was amazing.

    Just wait until this team can get something done, then give it a go. It's not as punishing as XI, but it lacks content compared. Some mechanics also need to be tweaked still.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • DecadentiaDecadentia Member Posts: 464

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Originally posted by Decadentia

    Wondering if someone can help me with some info...

    I played in the first year or two of this game and absolutely loved it. However, I was younger, had copious amounts of free time and could grind 24/7 to level. I don't remember this "campaign" type deal, all I remember is the game required you to play like it was a full time job to get anywhere. To the question...I can't afford to put in nearly as much time as I did before anymore, i'd say i'm closer to a casual player than anything these days...Is FFXIV similar to this? Does it require as much time as FFXI?

    FFXI was most likely my favorite MMO experience, simply due to the difficulty it posed along with the grouping was amazing.

    Just wait until this team can get something done, then give it a go. It's not as punishing as XI, but it lacks content compared. Some mechanics also need to be tweaked still.

     

    Not as punishing, but most likely comparable then? I guess i'm reluctant to buy the game if its 100% not intended for casual type players.

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Decadentia

    Not as punishing, but most likely comparable then? I guess i'm reluctant to buy the game if its 100% not intended for casual type players.

    I don't know. In a way it's much less hardcore, in a way it's not.

    You spend a lot less time sidetracking, like waiting for parties or farming for money. Then again, it takes longer to get levels past certain point and since there is not much content to do, that's not exactly casual friendly either.

    Therefore, wait and see how the content shapes up. If there is a lot to do at any given level, I could confidently say the steep exp curve does not make the game any less casual friendly.

    Whenever the PS3 version gets released would probably be the best time to start the game.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • monkeysoupmonkeysoup Member Posts: 22

    you have to admit.. at least they are sincere when it comes to apology.  give credit where credit is due. free 2 play untill they decided its ready.  if it was any other company, they probably just gave us all the finger, and charge us while they take theire time fixing.

     

    for me, the game is just not fun even if they are letting me play it for free.  I'm sure a lot of you guys will think otherwise, again.. it is just my opinion.

  • mudd4evermudd4ever Member Posts: 158

    Originally posted by Belarion

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Originally posted by cheyane

    I think the problem is the cost of the box. If they had not launched no one would have spent that money. That is hard premise to gain sympathy or understanding.They sold it and got money knowing the condition of the game. That is the reason more than anything that makes people mad.

    Yet those who spent their money did so knowing the condition of the game. And if they did not know the condition of the game, why did they spend  their money on it? In fact, it would have been very irrational of them, even more-so considering the free test they all could have participated in and gotten feedback from other players, or they could have just waited for the reviews or feelings of those who did buy the game either way.

    I don't think anyone should be mad if people willingly bought the game in it's current state, no matter the reasons for it. They either thought the game was fine, or did the irrational and bought it despite all the evidence that pointed against it, in which case they don't need no sympathy for acting dumb.

    In the end there was no one forcing anyone to go to the shop and buy the game. If SE got money from those who thought the game is good enough, what is so bad about that? Dumb people got tricked, that is not for SE to blame.

    Did I just read that?

    Any respect I had for you went right out the window.  Its just about the rudest snd downright ignorant thing you have ever said.  Im awed by how breathtakingly obnoxious you are.

    While SE should have done more homework and listened more to their closed beta testers and delayed the release (this much IS their blame alone), I have to respectfully disagree with anyone who would suggest that we the consumers have no responsibility.  We as consumers DO have a responsibility to make informed decisions about what we're purchasing, whether it be a house, a car, beauty products, a can of soup, a MMO, whatever.

    So, given that there was an open beta and plenty of pre-release feedback on the state of the game and even a bunch of YouTube beta videos, right there was a good set of ways for people to decide if it was worth it to them (I'm talking overall) to make the initial box purchase.

    I sure wish like everyone else there was more content and the obvious problems were dealt with before release.  But I'm not mad over my purchase.  There was enough there for me at the time to go for it.

    pie.

  • nordyanordya Member Posts: 82

    There's a few questions I do wonder what happens next.

    1) If december update is the last before the concrete plans showing, then what happens, people will only have those NMs to enjoy and then even if it's free, I can't see myself repeating things forever without new content.

     

    2) If the game is revamped, I can't see how no rollbacks will be happening. Like everyone would restart at level 1.

     

    I think both of those would lead to the final exodus of people.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Paradoxy

     

    Are you surprised? MMO players are not forgiving. Once you botch the launch, there is no way to rise up to the par. A company can try its best and make all the changes they can but in the eyes of MMO players it will never ever be good enough is it unfair? maybe but that is how it is and this is not going to change anytime sooner

    Am I surprised? Not at all. There's very little that surprises me on internet forums.

    However, whether or not the behavior is "surprising" also wasn't my point in stating that. So, I'm not sure why you even ask that question.

    I was merely using the behavior to point out that for some people, nothing SE does will be "good enough" because all they're really interested in is bashing the game and the company.

    SE had all the warnings and feedback it needed in clsoed beta but they went ahead and released the game anyways. I guess that is what makes players angry the most. And now SE can make excuses, apologies and what not but i don't think it is going to make much difference in changing players opinions. This is not the first MMO by the way where huge changes in development teams were made so it is not as if SE is doing something special. 

    1. You're dwelling in the past now. Yes... the game had a terrible launch. Yes... they were warned in Beta. Yes... they launched anyway. We got that. It's been discussed to death... well except maybe not for you.

    2. You don't know that it's not going to change players' opinions of the game as you do not speak for all players, nor do you know how all players think. Safest bet would be to speak for yourself. That way you don't come across as presumptuous.

    3. That last remark about what they're doing "not being special". Really... quite a petty statement. No one's discussing whether it's "special"or not.  That's just another strawman you threw out there for the sake of arguing.  The point is, they're doing it.

    That petty remark, however, also beautifully demonstrates what I was talking about when I mentioned people for whom likely nothing SE does will ever "be enough". You'll be right there to knock it down or dismiss it somehow. 

    Thank you for providing yourself as an example of what I was talking about.

    Moreover, don't confuse will with want. If SE could they would be charging us monthly fee right now. They are not doing it out of good will or because they care. They just don't have enough players in game left to charge a monthly fee. Once subscription cycle comes into effect they will further lose players.

    Spin-tastic assessment you've got there.

    They're not charging a fee because they acknowledge that the game is not in good enough shape to warrant one, and players would be very likely to leave completely if they tried.

    They have acknowledged this already. The game is not ready to charge a subscription.

    Of course they'd rather be charging a subscription fee... Duh? That's not exactly a revelation. The point is, they realize trying to at this time would be a bad thing because of the shape the game is in, very few would actually pay it. Their goal is to get the game into such a state where they feel players will.

    This has been discussed by SE already.

    Also, i disagree that players who thought 'everything is fine' were outnumbered by those who thought it wasn't. Fans were running rampant and snubbing anyone who was trying to criticise the game. They were told to go away and stop playing and this went on well for good two months and look where are we now. All those critics and unhappy players took advice of rabid fans and they left. All this time, fans have been blaming everyone except for the company itself.

    Now you're cherry-picking details.

    First, both sides were represented on those forums and both were equally vocal for a time. Some of the exchanges got so drawn out and redundant, I gave up on reading them.

    Second, as I said before, over time, toward the end of Beta, the number of people defending the game decreased as people either gave up on it or changed their opinions from "this game will be fine" to "this game isn't ready for retail".

    Your representation is certainly more accurate to how the beta forums were in Alpha and the first Beta phases. It's not accurate to how it was toward the end... which is what I was getting at.

    That said, again... fanboys "running rampant" and being hyper-defensive about a MMO in a game-specific forum is not exactly a revelation. It's still happening for FFXIV well past launch in these very forums.

    A number of people who were hyped for the game, defensive of it and doing all they could to "shoo" away critics have since played the game and changed their own opinions of it.

    If reviews are low because it is biased or reviewing websites are unprofessional. if someone is unhappy it is because they are playing the game wrong, if players think there is too much time sink, they are just 'WOW babies', if someone is looking for more quests and content they should just 'go back to WOW'. .and i can give you numerous examples of typical fanboyism. So i can totally understand where all this anger is coming from.

    You're forgetting the other side of that coin.

    If you say you like the game, or even anything remotely positive about it, you're "a fanboy" or you're "sucking off SE" or you're "paid by the company to hype the game" or "you have no taste in games" or "it's only because you're a fan of FF", or "you'll take any crap that's shoveled at you" and on and on.

    C'mon... That crap happens on both sides of the fence, and you know it.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by nordya

    There's a few questions I do wonder what happens next.

    1) If december update is the last before the concrete plans showing, then what happens, people will only have those NMs to enjoy and then even if it's free, I can't see myself repeating things forever without new content.

    What do you mean?

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Originally posted by Nikkita



    You surprised i am stating the obvious? where have you been? i am sorry but one has to do this from time to time considering some people are too busy singing praises for SE with eyes closed.

    if this obvious truth was such a general knowledge fans wouldn't be telling everyone that  SE is not charging us fee because they 'care'.

    That is stupid. They do it because it's the right thing to do, which is why they should be praised. They might as well charge us anyway and that would be the wrong thing to do. Good management and development decisions will save the game, not "caring".

    No company in the world "cares" about anything other than the bottom line. Goddamn.

    Heh...

    As I said... nothing SE does will make any difference to those determind to bash them no matter what.

    If they didn't offer the free playtime, I guarantee you'd see some of these same people outraged and offended that they dare charge people to play it.

    However, because SE is letting people play sans-subscripion 'til they get their ducks in a row and feel it's ready to charge a sub for, they can't make that argument. So, those people have to instead find a way to dismiss it...

    Apparently, admitting that, wow, SE is actually doing something decent for their players would throw their universes out of alignment or something.

    I'm just getting a kick out of the fact that some here are so absolutely determined to bash SE that they're trying to put a negative spin on them giving players months worth of free time while they fix the problems.

    I wonder if they'd be equally cynical if this were the case with a game they *did* like. That's a rhetorical question... of course they woldn't be. They'd be singing praises about what a great company the devs are.

    This all boils down to the very simple fact tht there are some people who are simply too dedicated to "hating SE" to ever acknowledge anything they do right. I predict you'll see these same people years down the line, still picking apart everything SE does; probably bringing up "how they didn't listen in Beta" as though it were still yesterday's headline and a bullet-proof statement to win any debate.

    Some people simply never move on.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Belarion

    Originally posted by Hyanmen


    Originally posted by cheyane

    I think the problem is the cost of the box. If they had not launched no one would have spent that money. That is hard premise to gain sympathy or understanding.They sold it and got money knowing the condition of the game. That is the reason more than anything that makes people mad.

    Yet those who spent their money did so knowing the condition of the game. And if they did not know the condition of the game, why did they spend  their money on it? In fact, it would have been very irrational of them, even more-so considering the free test they all could have participated in and gotten feedback from other players, or they could have just waited for the reviews or feelings of those who did buy the game either way.

    I don't think anyone should be mad if people willingly bought the game in it's current state, no matter the reasons for it. They either thought the game was fine, or did the irrational and bought it despite all the evidence that pointed against it, in which case they don't need no sympathy for acting dumb.

    In the end there was no one forcing anyone to go to the shop and buy the game. If SE got money from those who thought the game is good enough, what is so bad about that? Dumb people got tricked, that is not for SE to blame.

    Did I just read that?

    Any respect I had for you went right out the window.  Its just about the rudest snd downright ignorant thing you have ever said.  Im awed by how breathtakingly obnoxious you are.

    Suggesting people be responsible consumers and do their research before purchasing something is "rude and ignorant"?

    Since when?

    Sounds like wise advice to me, in any capacity.

    Hell I can apply that to myself. I was in Alpha. I was in Beta right up to the last day of OB.  I knew the state the game was in. I bought it anyway - the CE no less - and found myself very disappointed with it. I convinced myself that what we saw in Beta was only a small part of what the game would be at launch. I was wrong. I have only myself to blame for that.

    It wouldn't be "rude" or "ignorant" for someone to point that fact out to me. I might not like to hear it, but it would still be the truth.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • ShojuShoju Member UncommonPosts: 776

    Beta feedback was skewed because anyone who commented any of the game's systems with a negative tone was shot down by the SE fanbots and told to piss off back to WOW.  Everything was fine.  Hopefully SE will learn from this and look at the feedback of those questioning things rather than accepting the word of the the most vocal group.  Who were, given the state of the game at launch, clearly wrong and/or a little misguided in their perceptions of the game.

    The same can be said for those who purcahsed the game post launch.  People who pointed out negatives about the game were labled as trolls/haters/WOW-fans/or simply too stupid to understand the game's subtle nuances by the resident die-hard fans.  Everything was fine.  Obviously, given the state of the game post-launch, they we not enitrely correct, but the fans still did their best to paint the game in the most positive light they could to anyone enquiring about the game.  So in some ways it is hard to fault those who purchased the game post-launch given that so many people on forums (including this one) were doing their best to convince people to do so and to ignore the negative posts about the game.

    Well, until the reviews came out.....

  • NikkitaNikkita Member Posts: 790

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Originally posted by Nikkita



    You surprised i am stating the obvious? where have you been? i am sorry but one has to do this from time to time considering some people are too busy singing praises for SE with eyes closed.

    if this obvious truth was such a general knowledge fans wouldn't be telling everyone that  SE is not charging us fee because they 'care'.

    That is stupid. They do it because it's the right thing to do, which is why they should be praised. They might as well charge us anyway and that would be the wrong thing to do. Good management and development decisions will save the game, not "caring".

    No company in the world "cares" about anything other than the bottom line. Goddamn.

    That's the thing; They can't not that they don't want to.

    image


    Bite Me

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Nikkita

    That's the thing; They can't not that they don't want to.

    Why wouldn't they want to?

    More importantly, they could still charge us. They are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every month as we speak. It is a sensible decision, but not an easy one.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • ParadoxyParadoxy Member Posts: 786

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    Originally posted by Paradoxy


     
    Am I surprised? Not at all. There's very little that surprises me on internet forums.

    However, whether or not the behavior is "surprising" also wasn't my point in stating that. So, I'm not sure why you even ask that question.

    I was merely using the behavior to point out that for some people, nothing SE does will be "good enough" because all they're really interested in is bashing the game and the company.

    Not bashing, giving an opinion or more like venting anger and frustration at company, game and fans alike.

    1. You're dwelling in the past now. Yes... the game had a terrible launch. Yes... they were warned in Beta. Yes... they launched anyway. We got that. It's been discussed to death... well except maybe not for you.

    Not dwelling more like reflecting upon the reasons as to why players are angry and not ready to give SE a second chance that easily. And yes when it comes to things like this past is not easily forgotten.

    2. You don't know that it's not going to change players' opinions of the game as you do not speak for all players, nor do you know how all players think. Safest bet would be to speak for yourself. That way you don't come across as presumptuous.

    Oh yeah, where have i heard this one before? you don't speak for anyone just speak for yourself? yes during the beta and regularly after that for 2 months even though the popular opinion was the same. Sorry, but for someone like you who spend so much time on these forums i don't even need to tell you what most of the players here think about this game.

    3. That last remark about what they're doing "not being special". Really... quite a petty statement. No one's discussing whether it's "special"or not.  That's just another strawman you threw out there for the sake of arguing.  The point is, they're doing it.

    Petty? as usual overthinking and over analysing every sentence. You listed all the things that SE did and then throw your hands in surprise 'that is just not enough for some players'. So i simply stated that other companies have taken similar actions to rectify there mistakes. Hence they didn't do something special t warrant a sudden change in public opinion.

    That petty remark, however, also beautifully demonstrates what I was talking about when I mentioned people for whom likely nothing SE does will ever "be enough". You'll be right there to knock it down or dismiss it somehow. 

    Nope, when i wil see some real results i would happily re activate my account. But right now i am not going to put positive spin on everything SE does. I will leave defending SE's honour to fans like yourself.

    Thank you for providing yourself as an example of what I was talking about.

    You are welcome

    Spin-tastic assessment you've got there.

    They're not charging a fee because they acknowledge that the game is not in good enough shape to warrant one, and players would be very likely to leave completely if they tried.

    They have acknowledged this already. The game is not ready to charge a subscription.

    Of course they'd rather be charging a subscription fee... Duh? That's not exactly a revelation. The point is, they realize trying to at this time would be a bad thing because of the shape the game is in, very few would actually pay it. Their goal is to get the game into such a state where they feel players will.

    This has been discussed by SE already.

    And that is exactly what i said. Or did i say something different? SE can't charge fee because they will lose rest of the players. People are confusing their inability to charge fee as gesture of goodwill.

    First, both sides were represented on those forums and both were equally vocal for a time. Some of the exchanges got so drawn out and redundant, I gave up on reading them.

    Second, as I said before, over time, toward the end of Beta, the number of people defending the game decreased as people either gave up on it or changed their opinions from "this game will be fine" to "this game isn't ready for retail".

    Your representation is certainly more accurate to how the beta forums were in Alpha and the first Beta phases. It's not accurate to how it was toward the end... which is what I was getting at.

    That said, again... fanboys "running rampant" and being hyper-defensive about a MMO in a game-specific forum is not exactly a revelation. It's still happening for FFXIV well past launch in these very forums.

    A number of people who were hyped for the game, defensive of it and doing all they could to "shoo" away critics have since played the game and changed their own opinions of it.

    You're forgetting the other side of that coin.

    If you say you like the game, or even anything remotely positive about it, you're "a fanboy" or you're "sucking off SE" or you're "paid by the company to hype the game" or "you have no taste in games" or "it's only because you're a fan of FF", or "you'll take any crap that's shoveled at you" and on and on.

    C'mon... That crap happens on both sides of the fence, and you know it.

    Come on now. I still remember when  beta was going on everytime someone tried to give any kind of feedback (even if slightly negative)  they were shot down by fans. Typical response was 'its beta, it will get better'. There was zero toleration for any criticism. It was same attitude on fansites. Sorry but i was really involved in beta from very beginning so i have seen it all. What ticked everyone the most was how all the blame was thrown on the players. 'You are playing it wrong' and GOD knows how many times i have seen you using this line. And when reviews began to come in, once again it was fault of revieweres because they are all 'WOW fanboys'. Seriously?

    Yes there are two sides of the coin infact, there were not even any sides till people got a chance to partiticpate in beta. But moment negative feedback started ,well you can guess which side got panties in a bunch first.

    Anyways, why was i talking about disgruntled and unhappy players? to give you a breakdown on why everyone is so angry with SE and the game. When for months you are being told to 'go back to wow', 'you are playing it wrong', 'you are not smart enough for FF' and it turns out that they were right all along. Ofcourse you will see a lot of bitter players come in here and rub it in on SE and fans.

    The other side of the coin is fine. They are still praising SE and telling everyone to 'be hopeful and give SE a chance, if not atleast acknowledge what steps SE is taking'. So why do i even need to tell you something you already know? fans stance has never changed its still the same and still use typical phrases like 'hey haters gonna hate' ( i point you to very first page of this topic'.)

     

    Who could have thought that WOW could bring super power like USA to its knees?


    Originally posted by Arcken

    To put it in a nutshell, our society is about to hit the fan, grades are dropping, obesity is going up,childhood the USA is going to lose its super power status before too long, but hey, as long as we have a cheap method to babysit our kids, all will be well no?
    Im picking on WoW btw because its the beast that made all of this possible

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Paradoxy

    Not bashing, giving an opinion or more like venting anger and frustration at company, game and fans alike.

    Well that's certainly a lot of frustration and anger.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
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